San Fran “Barn Find” 1960 VBA Rebuild
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern
Author Message
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:30 pm quote
Hi,

Longtime lurker but first time poster. I have probably gone through the first 50 pages of the vintage section just browsing. I have since come back and read the at least a hundred threads with VBA, VBB, or VBC as the subject.

Background:
My uncle parked his VBA in 1970. At some point he shoved it under the stairs in his San Fransisco house to be forgotten until 2015. He pulled it out, snapped some pictures, and told me the piston was free moving. He graciously said if I could get it home, it was free. Finally in summer of 2017 I was able to get out to San Fransisco. I grabbed a rental and drove the 2,500+ miles back with the Vespa.

The Scoot:
To put it lightly, this thing was well used in the city. It has been modified to accommodate a chain through the leg shield to prevent theft. Obviously it is not the original color and the aqua is pretty flaky, but thankfully all rust is surface rust. Surprisingly the tires took air and the thing would roll. Gear shifter, clutch, front brake still work. However the rear brake pedal is very stiff and the throttle grip was frozen. The inside of the gas tank has some surface rust, but looks salvageable. I was also given some “spares” with the bike: cylinder head, 2 carbs, 1 lower carb box, 1 3-wire stator.

The Plan:
A project is just a pile of parts with goals. I am attempting to take a 2 step approach:
1) Get the VBA running, street legal, and registered with minimal money. Although I have a signed title with appropriate state paperwork, I am slightly worried about the title transfer (it is just my nature). Therefore I don’t want to get in too deep if things go sideways.
2) Build the bike up to become reliable (ie replace all the inner/outer cables, possibly a new wiring harness/better lighting). As I ride it around town, more stuff will break and make itself evident as to what needs to be done. I have ZERO plans to restore this bike. I have zero plans to spray clear coat on the current paint. This moped will not see rain and I am not worried about structural rust. If it gets bad I will re-spray the bike.

More to come later this week.

858A7A18-5A1D-4F9F-95BC-83E05806AECD.jpeg

3DF785EC-A7B8-44BF-B9BB-8953AF17452E.jpeg

76E81E74-66EF-45F2-9F87-35F65A5268CD.jpeg

23F57181-CBA4-4A01-9091-C3A24467D01C.jpeg



Last edited by Captcha on Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:55 pm; edited 4 times in total
Ossessionato
73 & 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 06 PX150, 61 Ser 2, 65 Silver Special, 86 & 96 Elite 80s, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3886
Location: Oceanside, CA
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:40 pm quote
Very cool find and neat project. A scooters always better with a back story.

Thanks for doing your homework and searching the forum before posting!

Don't worry about the title issue. Most DMV services don't know the rules on scooters and usually are cool. If for some reason you have problems, get a Vermont title since it's easy and legal.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4589
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:41 pm quote
Cool story. Nice bike.

Good research.

You've got a good plan. Post up for help, you will get it.

Welcome.
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5654
Location: So Cal
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:27 pm quote
Nice scoot. Kudos for having driven 2500 miles to rescue it.

I'd like to hear more about its history. Was your uncle the original owner?

You came to the right place. Lots of collective knowledge here about these old machines.

Have fun... if you have any questions, ask away.
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4396
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:15 pm quote
Good man for the rescue. Ask, ask, ask, that's what this forum is all about, people helping people that are not afraid to get their hands dirty.
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:29 pm quote
Thanks all for the warm welcome.

SoCalGuy: My uncle was not the original owner. Most likely 2nd or 3rd owner based on the title.

More background on the road trip. I flew up for a few days to see my uncles and planned a road trip to see the country and get the scooter back. One of my really good friends flew up to meet me. We took 6 days coming back so we could enjoy the country and only have to drive 8-9 hours a day (we had 1 non driving day). Total wing job as we were booking our hotels as we arrived in the city. Only thing planned was Zion National Park. We went south from San Fran on Hwy 1. We ended up tooling around Laguna Seca and seeing the track (we just saw a sign and went for it). We also got lucky and drove through LA on July 4th at night, it was amazing to see all the fireworks just overhead as you were driving through. Vegas, Hoover dam, and Grand Canyon were in there too. After that we just mashed the gas and were done sight seeing.

Because a post is worthless without pics, I added a pic of how I loaded the Vespa in the rental. Yes I took off the engine side over. We did get some strange looks whenever the light was just right and people saw what we were carrying. I also scored an air compressor from my uncle, so that helped wedge everything in together.

PS: Which site is the best for remote image hosting these days? My phone will only let me attach 1 photo per post

6E1AD8EB-29B2-41AE-9E76-494EE457026A.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86, a not so normal pts100 '82 and a red lipstick '74 sprint
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5731
Location: Indo
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:02 pm quote
welcome mate, the vespa sure does look cool and priceless (since we were given for free its mean the previous owner trust us to take care and give love to the bike) beside if it runs its a great story, yes u need to replace all the inner cable to make it safe maybe change ur carb fload needle and the clucth plate as well the brake shoes (thats what i change on a smallie that sit for 34 years) and since ur here now i am happy to know that i am not the only using a old timer tyre

and 1 more thing, what u have there is a scooter not a moped

good luck with the scooter and cheer mate
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4589
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:17 pm quote
I like Flickr for image hosting.

If you edit your post after you submit it you can continue to add more photos, one each time. This is cumbersome, but is sort of a work around using the attach function.
Ossessionato
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 3374
Location: pacifica,ca.
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:05 am quote

great project.love the black plate
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:24 am quote
Progress made:
After my initial struggle to realize my uncle installed a kill switch in the glove, I had spark when I kicked it over. Based on the sightglass on the gas tank I knew the carb would need some love. The carb was gummed up, so I rebuilt it with a kit. The kit’s large top gasket for a SI 20/17C, but I have a 20/17. The difference is the bowl section kicks off at a slight angle on the C. I made a gasket and moved on as the rest of the kit worked great.
I threw the carb back on, put a poor man’s gas tank on (2 ft of new fuel hose), and proceeded to kick. Well with lots of convincing she got running, but just barely. When I went to start her the next day to show off, air/fuel was blowing out of the intake instead of in. Yes, you are correct my timing was off. It was funny because it was almost exactly 180 deg off and made me question my math skills. Anyway as you know the woodruff was sheared. I put a new one in and set the timing. She fired right up after that. A side note, the points looked great with no corrosion. The coils looks decent and I cleaned them with some electrical cleaner.

The next hurdle was the stuck throttle tube. I mean it was mega stuck. Like a plant, I hydrated the throttle tube every couple days with penetrating oil for a few weeks with no avail. One day I had enough and grabbed my BF hammer. I took the headlight off, took off the throttle cable hardware and went to town on the tube. It finally moved half an inch and then wouldn’t move. I called it a day. The next day I walked out and was like “you idiot, you never removed the electric wiring and were beating the p!ss out of them”. I beat the throttle tube back in, and pulled the wiring out of the throttle tube. Thankfully the wiring was not harmed, however with the wiring removed I could not get the throttle tube removed. It acted as if there was a catch I was unaware of, so I just use a thin lubricant and worked it in so it now moves as it should. I put the wires back and hooked the throttle assembly bracket and cable back. The clutch cable needed to be adjusted, which is not bad when you use a zip tie to the exhaust to hold the clutch.

My big ride: With 2ft of gas in the line, I kicked her over and took her for her first spin down the street in almost 50 years. It was amazing! Then I had to turn around quickly before I ran out of gas. All 3 gears work. I was stoked and as I was rolling her back to the garage I had another “you idiot moment”. In my excitement I forgot to change or even check the gear oil. Thankfully she didn’t run for far or long, and there is some oil in there. Also, the tires and tubes are beyond their usable life and I won’t be riding again until I get new ones.

Picture of homemade gasket. The original was missing a portion so I just winged it.

D4ACFB7B-54B9-47BD-8898-61C495248A3E.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1261
Location: California
Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:34 am quote
outstanding!
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3058
Location: Nashville
Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:41 pm quote
Looking at the wear on that back tire, it was definitely well-used by your uncle.

Great looking old scoot, looks like it's in good hands!

I love the old 8" bikes, too.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 x2 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 8048
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:42 pm quote
Great bike, great story and sounds like you are doing it right. Keep posting your progress please, and don't be afraid to ask for help, parts or advice. These are odd machines in many ways and there are no dumb questions.

Now for the frosting on the cake, ask Uncle if he has any old pics of him with the Vespa and share them here please. Also, I wanna see a pic with this security chain hole thru the legshield - sounds very effective.
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:20 pm quote
Where it all went to sh!t.
Ok maybe I am exaggerating, but I am stuck. Anyway bike runs great, rear running light and brake light work. However the front half of the electronics don’t work (horn, front light). When I first got the engine running, at one point the headlight did come on very very dim and would get slightly brighter with throttle. Now the headlight doesn’t work at all. The horn never worked.

I have cleaned with electrical cleaner the wires going to the headlight, the handle bar switch, and bullet connectors going from stator to wiring harness (I do not have a junction box). Everything was put back together with electrical grease. No change in getting the front electrical to work. The stator magnets will hold a wrench.

I’ve got 99 wires, but is it this one? Let’s state the facts and just the facts ma’am:
-The bike is title as a 1961 VBA, frame matches title and has VBA in serial #. Motor does not match frame serial, but is a VBA. I didn’t think VBA’s were maid in ‘61, so maybe just a title error.
-I have a 6 wire stator, but only 5 wires connected. The colors switch illogically when going from stator to rest of bike. Most likely it was originally a 3 wire as I was given a beat to sh!t one in the parts bin.
-I have no junction box, just bullet connectors.
-The flywheel (fan + magnets) is one solid piece with no timing access hole.
-When I pulled the headlight, I had 3 extra wires that were never terminated to anything (white, pink, blue)
-my headlight seems to be a sealed unit with no running light capability nor way to replace bulb.
-I have 2 wires running to my taillight (blue and black). Appears to be no yellow light tied in.
-the handle bar switch does not seem to be the original VBA

My thoughts:
At some point a VBB1 stator was added with a VBB2 wiring harness (or vice versa) that was hacked back to work for VBA. This is the only thing I could come up with by comparing the VBA, VBB1, VBB2 wiring harness diagrams. Also, I failed to check voltage last time I was testing the bike. I’m currently on the road so, no access to the bike. I did test light the wires, 2 were decently bright 2 were very dim.

What I need:
I am willing to put in a new wiring harness (extremely tempted to make my own), but for efficiency I will probably buy one. My fear is not buying the correct parts with my hodgepodge of different parts.

Maybe someone with a keen eye can help identify the non VBA parts and tell me what they are off. I would like to make a parts order this week.

4718605F-837F-4EAF-946C-8E36AF1E7376.jpeg

BB27260F-A634-420B-B84B-0B1BBEB11E3F.jpeg

47180297-4763-4031-99D8-A4A196FA58C5.jpeg

AB3C84D6-BCC4-4275-9B52-3B3329E6A90E.jpeg

0DF90EFC-4ABC-43AB-911A-AAEBDF26AB4D.jpeg

E64A806D-C8B4-46C4-855A-131B1C857741.jpeg

07E09D67-1D4E-4D6C-AD4D-1FC7A300873E.jpeg

934362C6-A3EE-4D73-8C32-BB713720F58D.jpeg

Addicted
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 956
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:14 pm quote
Nice pick up!

My knowledge about electrical is very limited but it seems your coils are not good. You could replace those to see if your lighting is repaired. Also check the grounds. Someone with better knowledge may drop in and give you a more detail solution to fixing your lighting.

I'm not good at chasing down electrical bugs and especially from wiring that's been changed from the electrical diagram. If keeping the points this kit may work. https://www.scooterwest.com/vintage-6v-ac-stator-and-harness-kit.html

Good luck!

points.png

Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:20 am quote
Updates
So what the heck happened? Life of course. I figured I would post an update of all the work that has been done. But first, thanks for your responses. RowdyC, you were correct that some of the coils were toast and the problem was rectified with a new stator.

Although I haven’t posted in 2 years, I have been lurking the whole time to solve problems. Huge shout out V oodoo, Socalguy, Ginch, Robhodge (I know I missed a few names) for your contributions over the years, they were very helpful in explaining some of the finer points of Vepsa’s. Also the Australian Guy whose scoot was caked inside and out with red dirt, great pics and your documentation was useful (I think I also stumbled upon your wordpress site as well).

Below are the mechanical updates. Bike is running/driving and legal. I can take her on 30 minute rides no problem (sort of, no rear brake).

New Tires and Tubes – I had to get the local shop to stretch the new tires on the split rims. Even after putting the tires in the oven, I could not get them to stretch around the rim, not squish the tube, and then put the two halves of the rim together.

Cleaned Fuel tank and replaced fuel tap – The fuel tank was not just rusty but also hard a hardened goo in it. It took multiple rounds of going back and forth between terpentine (to remove goo) and Evaporust to remove rust. At times little small metal balls (BB’s) were used to bang off the stubborn rust. The picture is after the first round of cleaning and not the final product. Fuel tap was not the best and I ended up plugging it to act as my stopper at the bottom of the tank during the cleaning process. This work was done 2 years ago and kept the tank relatively clean even though I did not use POR15. **Insert pic of old tank after first cleaning & tap**

New Elec Accessories – New headlight, new taillight, new brake switch – Old sealed headlight was not great, so replaced with more modern housing that also had a pilot light. Original VBA taillight was period correct hacked together, but for $20 I though a new one on for now. **insert pic of original VBA taillight**

Stator and new wiring – I replaced all the wiring in the bike, unfortunately I decided to make my own wiring harness. Do not ever make your own harness unless you have too! I did it because there seems to be a few wiring harnesses floating around out there and I did not want the wrong one. Also I wanted the experience of fully understanding the wiring one wire at a time. Final product came out well though. From a cost standpoint, after buying 10 colors of automotive wiring, it was about the same as just buying a replacement harness. New wiring did help get power to the front, but it was still weak so I replaced the 6 wire stator with a 5 wire stator. It took a little hackery to get it to work, however the lights and horn work great. **Insert pic of making wiring harness, show old stator vs new **

New outer and inners & new pinch bolts – It is a pain, but we all need a good cry sometimes. Replaced all cables except choke, but that is the easiest one.

New levers – Not a big deal but wanted to mention this as my old ones were super ovaled out and I could not find the sweet spot for the clutch adjustment (ie hole over time drifted and reduced leverage).

New Exhaust (VBB stock equivalent) – This was a must as the old exhaust was filled with crap. Probably a 1lb different between old exhaust and new exhaust. This really helped the engine breath.

New front Shock/Spring – The front would instantly dive upon braking on the old setup (old damper was completely shot). I bought a new normal spring and a BGM damper. Now the front still dives on braking, but doesn’t bottom out like it did. I have played with the damper setting, too hard made the bike extremely rough over bumps. **Insert picture of new setup**

New carb and carb box – I also decided to switch from a 20/17A (air flapper choke) to a 20/17C (fuel enrichment circuit for choke). Don’t worry this came with the bike along with the correct carb box to match. Carb was rebuilt and almost correct stock VBB jetting (air correction is 160, could not find 140). Funny story, if you play with carb adjustment screws and nothing happens, you probably forgot to put in the paper gasket in your haste.

I hope to have the next installment here in a couple weeks where I will talk about my learning experience with rear oil leaks, centerstands, gas tank vent tube, and maybe get the speedo working. I am hoping to split cases in next few weeks to replace gasket, seals, and bearings.

1 - gas tank fuel tap.jpg
Old gas tank fuel tap

2 - gas tank round 1.jpg
Old Gas Tank after one round of cleaning.

3 - VBA taillight original.jpg
VBA Taillight guts had been ripped out in the past and replaced with a dual filament bulb.

4 - Wireharness creation.jpg
Creating the wiring harness.

5 - New vs old stator.jpg
New 5 wire stator (Left) vs old 6 wire stator (Right).

6 - Hacky way to apply pressure to front suspension.jpg
My hack way I had to create leverage to oppose the spring force to get the damper in place (Damper will not fully close when compressed and the spring was brand new). I was doing this by myself, if I had 2 people I wouldn't have had to be so creative.

7 - Front suspension - New.jpg
New spring and BGM damper installed.

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3058
Location: Nashville
Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:43 pm quote
I did the exact same thing to replace the damper on my Sprint. I thought it was a great way to do it, especially since I was also doing it alone.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1612
Location: Siam
Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:43 pm quote
That ring welded to the fork tube is really cool. I guess that's the lock device you mentioned earlier to stop thieves, right? Quite practical, especially for the City (SF, den of thieves). Does it clear the hub when the spring is fully compressed?
Addicted
Too Many piles of Junk that need too much work and too much money
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 532
Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Sun Apr 12, 2020 9:36 pm quote
nomadinsiam wrote:
That ring welded to the fork tube is really cool. I guess that's the lock device you mentioned earlier to stop thieves, right? Quite practical, especially for the City (SF, den of thieves). Does it clear the hub when the spring is fully compressed?
Good eye! That is a nice touch!
Addicted
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '64 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 792
Location: S.Salem, NY
Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:50 am quote
no dent in the link cover.
Enthusiast
GS-150 VS4
Joined: 04 Feb 2020
Posts: 85
Location: Vallejo, CA
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:10 am quote
That petcock and tank look quite crusty. Did you consider using Lye? It was mentioned by someone as the most effective treatment, but perhaps you know that.
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:01 am quote
Thanks nomadinsiam & GeekLion for the compliment on the anti-theft ring. And yes it does clear the suspension linkage. I saw your comments and went to the garage to take pictures with the original from 50 years ago that I found in the glove box when I got it. I won't be running this chain because by today's standards it can be cut easily. As for another chain, the ID of the ring is on the smaller side and I do not think I will be able to use some of the modern day motorcycle chain that is available.

While out there it occurred to me that I could maybe use a "U" lock instead of a chain. Check out the picture below with the U-Lock and let me know what you think. It doesn’t look like I could feasible place the U-Lock around the bike and a solid object, so I would just use it as a steering lock essentially. Yes I could loop chain around the U-Lock to a solid object, but then I would have to lug around 10 lbs of anti theft everywhere I go. FYI this bike will just be an errand runner and won’t be unattended for long than 30 minutes.
nickton wrote:
That petcock and tank look quite crusty. Did you consider using Lye? It was mentioned by someone as the most effective treatment, but perhaps you know that.
The petcock was super crusty and I just bought a new one. I ended up putting epoxy on the holes of the old petcock to use it as a stopper during the soaking/cleaning process. The tanks was super crusty and I wish I had a before pic. But now the tank is all good and there is no contaminate in the glass sediment bowl.

I did consider Lye, but did not like the HSE risk to myself and it would have been a struggle to properly dispose of the used lye in my city when I was finished. I was also worried about spillage of lye instantly eating the original paint if I had a mistake. My route was definitely slower and I would just suggest for most people to buy a new tank unless you are trying to keep the current paint.

8 - Old Security Chain.jpg
The old 50 year chain ran through the "custom" anti theft rings on the bike.

9 - Security U Lock.jpg
Trying a U-Lock to act as my physical anti-theft measure.

Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3058
Location: Nashville
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:26 am quote
If you've never split the cases on one of these, my VBB is far and away the toughest to do.

Be sure to get all the case bolts out, especially the one underneath the cylinder. It gets water from the hole at the front of the swingarm in it and freezes in place. Heat, penetraing oil, and a punch will almost certainly be required.

After that, you can heat the cases around the crank and then either work it loose or use a crank extractor/case opener if you have access to specialist tools.

That's a "nice-to-have" tool, but you really need a few other specialty tools:
- Flywheel puller, if you don't have a "self extracting" flywheel, which the early VBB's did. My '62 does not, but I think it's because it's not the original flywheel
- clutch castle nut tool
- rear hub castle nut tool (this is theoretically optional, but unless your time is very cheap, it's worth buying)

Keep up the great work!
Addicted
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '66 Allstate SF, '64 VBB, '66 180SS
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 792
Location: S.Salem, NY
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:05 am quote
That's cool that the U-lock fits. Couldn't you could also just attach the fork to a post, bike rack, or something with that lock without going through the legshield ?
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3058
Location: Nashville
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:44 am quote
Moto64 wrote:
That's cool that the U-lock fits. Couldn't you could also just attach the fork to a post, bike rack, or something with that lock without going through the legshield ?
Even if it got stolen that way, you could find it by monitoring social media for posts of someone riding a wheelie everywhere on a vintage vespa.
Enthusiast
GS-150 VS4
Joined: 04 Feb 2020
Posts: 85
Location: Vallejo, CA
Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:18 am quote
That kryptonite hole also has the added benefit of keeping your brake foot cool.
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:42 am quote
Made giant leaps last year during lockdown. So much so I have been riding/wrenching not posting. Oops. Going to play catch-up and try getting this thread caught up. P motor installed, but we will get to that later.

12V Wiring to VBA
As previously mentioned, I dumbly made my own wiring harness (don’t recommend bc a new one is cheap). So be danged if I was going to buy a 12V conversion harness. New motor will be 12V AC only. Previous wire was setup for a load balanced 6 wire VBA/VBB stator. Short story is I created a terminal block next to gas tank with a positive side and negative side (gosh this sounds unsafer than it really is). Only 3 wires come from motor (pos/neg/kill). Ran power to AC/AC rectifier and then from there a wire to positive and a wire for negative. All the original VBA wires coming from up front that needed juice were terminated to the positive terminal block, negative wire(s) were terminated to the negative terminal block. Kill wire (green from CDI) was terminated to the original red kill wire underneath the tank area.

In pictures:
Terminal block up top positive is right 4 terminals, negative is left most 2. I kept the OG hidden kill switch, didn’t bother to run a new one. Terminal block was mounted using existing hole that came through to hold the glovebox on. All the wiring got cleaned up a little after taking the picture.

Only 3 wires are heading to the rest of the bike, got this sweet connector to make it faster for motor drops.

20a - Stator block and AC regulator.jpg
Regulator mounted to bottom of gas tank area. Pos/Neg distribution at top of picture.

21a - Stator block up close.jpg
Terminal block. Positive on right, negative on left.

22a - CDI with nifty connector.jpg
Only 3 wires needed to drop the motor, got a quick disconnect for them.



Last edited by Captcha on Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:57 am quote
Flywheel and Stator Install
I got an Italian P series flywheel and a BGM P stator (BGM8025N). As I was tightening the fly wheel something didn’t feel right. A bit of case was sticking out and interfering with the outer diameter of the flywheel. Bring out the tape and rotary tool. Just providing this as a heads up if someone ends up there.

Also had some rubbing issues of hall sensor when rotating by hand. I attempted to adjust hall sensor on stator (helped some), but ultimately had to whip out the sand paper and take just a smidge away by hand. FYI flywheel weighs 2350g, Mazzy recommends max of 1600g, BGM recommends max of 2300g on theirs. I didn’t know about the Mazzy recommendation until well after I bought the flywheel. And yes I am trying to make friends with someone that owns a lathe. Although after reading all the other threads on this, I don’t think I could cut 750g off mine and even if I did I would have to rebalance it. I may just buy the 51001000 Touren (1 key slot, not 2) that weights 1600g and be done with it.

23 - BGM Stator.jpg
BGM Pro PX EFL 5 wire stator. I like the degree marks on the bottom left.

24 - Flywheel Interference.jpg
Interference between case and flywheel.

25 - Taped shaft to cut case for flywheel.jpg
Flywheel seal protected and stator bagged up in preparation for case cutting.

26 - Running by Hall Sensor.jpg
Hall sensor rubbing on flywheel. After pic adjusted hall sensor, but still had to light sand flywheel.

Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 7660
Location: San Francisco
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:20 pm quote
scan copies of any and all paperwork, like the title or registration...

In California a copy of the title that lists and old original plate can be used to reassign that plate to the vehicle. Having this option can add quite a bit to its value down the road.

Most the time, the title gets handed in when registering it so the paperwork is lost at that point.
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:14 pm quote
OCT. Excellent suggestion. I just did the title a couple months ago. I thankfully did snap a picture of the title before handing it over. I tried to sweet talk her into letting me keep the original and her sending a copy to CA, but no luck. I do still have the plate and plan on framing it at some point.
Addicted
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 956
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:27 pm quote
Prob best to move that terminal box and regulator to the left glovebox. Easier to just take the cowl off and use the infamous shoe goo if you don’t have holes on that side to screw in those components. Btw, why not use a motor mounted junction box. In the future there’s always a need to check connections and grounds or what you’re calling negatives. I can’t imagine removing the tank for any electrical issue and don’t see how to trouble shoot without the motor running because the gas tank is not connected.
If your wiring harness was setup for 6v, have you changed the harness to accept 12v, add 12v switches and rerouted some of the wires? Being that wiring harness is homemade a 12v conv. maybe different.

Good luck
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm quote
Great questions. That’s funny that I called the grounds negative, didn’t even realize it.

Eventually the 3 prong quick connect did get jammed inside the motor mounted junction box. I still dig this design because you don’t have to deal with spades and you can stick a prong into backside to troubleshoot if needed.

As for the changes made to accommodate 12V, you had me stumped for a minute. I had to pull out my notes to figure out what I did. I forgot that I had switched out the brake switch to always open. I’m running original light switch, conversion brake switch (Always open, brake pedal close circuit) and bulbs all went to 12VAC. Using VBA1T wiring as base diagram for original re-wire. The light switch expects to see 3 hots originally each coming from a different coil, I just tied them all together post AC regulator. Is this the “right” way, probably not but it works. I think on the 12V conversion light switches they just have one hot coming in.

Mounting under the gas tank, retrospectively was a poor design choice. Good call. I didn’t consider the trouble shooting aspect. Your suggestions makes more sense than what I did. The glove box never even crossed my mind. Next time I re-wire the bike I will probably just get the BGM harness and stick the regulator wherever the harness puts it (hard mounted to the engine side like on the later bikes is my guess). I still need to decide if I ever want DC for a USB charger or a LED headlight. Pushing that decision down the road.

27 - VBA1T Wiring Schematic.png

Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:31 pm quote
Steering bearing/race replacement
The VBA’s handling left a lot to be desired, still does and in fact always will. Even with new front shock/spring (and rear as well) and proper tire pressure, the bike felt like it was one pot hole away from violently throwing the steering one direction and bucking me off. It didn’t help that the steering column lock limits also didn’t work. To remedy the issue, I installed new bearing and races that come in a cage like the later P series. S!P 90122600 is a complete kit for retrofitting VBA’s at a reasonable price. I didn’t have much trouble removing old races and installing the new ones, but I did cheat with a heat gun from the get go. The lever from a car jack was the perfect size to get the upper race removed. Everything slid back together well and now my steering feels really solid. Also I took the time to beat the ever living dog excrement out of the steering stop piece that is attached to the bike to get it to engage the stops on the fork. My only mistake was not replacing the steering lock while the fork was out. Not a big deal but food for thought.

Speedo rebuild
Nothing like hearing your speedo make a noise almost louder than your engine. I disconnected the speedo cable early on in ownership due to this noise. But alas it was time to do something about it. Yes, I know there is a guy called speedo-king and he can do amazing things. My thought was try and fix it myself or try and break it to have an excuse for the S!P digital gauge. Pics below, but all it ended up needing was a clean and lube. Also took the time to use rubbing compound/polish on the lens to get a bulk of the yellowing and scratches out. At some point in my build I installed a new speedo cable and gear. My speedo is actually accurate for the most part after this rebuild. In the middle (at 30mph) it is dead on, closer to 0mph it reads high, and at 60mph it reads a little low. But it is consistent, and I know what speed I am going. Hint of what is to come: I am going to bury that flipping speedo needle so deep China is going to call and ask what is going on.

28 - For Drop with table.jpg
Fork drop made easier with elevated table

29 - Floor Jack Lever for bearing removal.jpg
The floor jack lever makes for the perfect upper race removal tool.

30 - Pre beating on fork stop tab.jpg
Steering stop tab prior to massaging into place.

31 - New SIP bearings.jpg
New SIP bearings and lower race (or is that called dust cover). Lube was added after this pic.

32 - Pre Speedo Work.jpg
Before Pic - Speedo out of the bike

33 - Carefully having to remove the needle without bending anything..jpg
Carefully removing the needle without bending anything.

34 - About to remove magnetic disk with shaft.jpg
About to remove magnetic disk w/shaft for cleaning

35 - All Apart and ready for cleaning.jpg
All apart. The part on the far right had no lube and was seizing up and leading to irregular readings and being loud.

36 - Speedo post rebuild. Used polish compound on the lense inside and out..jpg
After Pic - Speedo installed. Used polish compound on both side of lens to remove as much as I could.

Addicted
GL, PK, PE200 with hack, Sears Rust Badge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 956
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:15 pm quote
Captcha wrote:
... Using VBA1T wiring as base diagram for original re-wire. The light switch expects to see 3 hots originally each coming from a different coil, I just tied them all together post AC regulator. Is this the “right” way, probably not but it works. I think on the 12V conversion light switches they just have one hot coming in.
It looks like you're making progress.

The switches should have one source of power. Like the brake switch, the handlebar switch only needs one source of power. I'm sorta new to crazy vespa electronics and can't understand how all your lights are working now. It may work now and fry later.
Based on the diagram above, the only source you need is the green wire from the stator/regulator to the handlebar switch. The orange wire is not needed. The horn source is also not needed and needs rewiring. You can use this diagram as a reference.


Also, the switch needs rewiring or get a 12v handlebar switch. If you rewire the switch there's a need to solder a new wire in the switch and other adjustments. At the bottom of this diagram, there's a picture of handlebar switch wiring. The picture in the middle is a rewired 6v switch to 12v. https://studylib.net/doc/18653785/beedspeed-conversion-wiring-diagram-for-rally--sprint

Good luck!
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5654
Location: So Cal
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:11 am quote
16,909 is respectable mileage for a Vespa speedo. Keep up the good work.
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:38 pm quote
Damn you and your logic, lol. I see where I went wrong when I put this together "These wires up front had power before, by golly they are getting power again". Next time I am back in the wiring, I will disconnect some of the extras.
rowdyc wrote:
Also, the switch needs rewiring or get a 12v handlebar switch. If you rewire the switch there's a need to solder a new wire in the switch and other adjustments. At the bottom of this diagram, there's a picture of handlebar switch wiring.
As to needing solder a jumper wire in the switch, I think this is to get power to the other side of the switch when you switch to just one 12v hot. In my case, by having 3 (probably true w/ just 2) I am probably doing the same thing as a jumper. There was also a million variants of these dang switches. My switch does not look like any of the other in the switches in the B-speed diagram you linked too. When I go fix, it will get the jumper treatment if needed.

As for longevity I have had no issues so far. Work was done late last year and just now trying to catch up my post. While it is not the most efficient way, I think it worked because it was all from the same AC source/phase/hz/voltage. Anyway, I will correct because even if it works now doesn't mean things won't fry at some point.

Good discussion!
Member
VBA
Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 47
Location: Texas
Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:07 pm quote
CHT Gauge
Now I know how slow I am going, but all I care about is if I am hot or not. Although I am overall trying to maintain the beat to sh!t look, I had to make a compromise and sneak in a CHT gauge. I went with a TTO 742-ET1 with the 4’ lead V300-48 (and I needed almost every inch of that extension). I spent a lot of time brainstorming how to install the gauge in a place that I could quickly see and not have to drill into anything for the wires or mounting. I finally settled on making my own mount out of thing steel and piggy backing it onto the left mirror mount. I was able to smuggle the extension wire (with the connector removed) through the slit in the underside of the headset and then down steering cast to back of bike. Replaced the connector on the extension and then was able to connect to the gauge pigtail. Then maneuvered a zip tie through the slit to secure the connection where the gauge and extension met to keep them out of harms way from the steering head movement. FYI this is the stud bolt version I bought, so I add 20F to the number displayed thanks to the fine work someone in this forum did comparing location of CHT of headstud vs cylinder plug. I might be misremembering the thread though.

New rear shock
Some might find this post to be shocking, others might just be mildly absorbed. This is an easy one: The VBA shock does not fit a P series motor. A P series shock does fit the VBA scoot, but you must get the correct shock spacer. For me 42mm seemed to be the correct answer. I am running 8” tires so I just aimed to keep the same overall length of the shock. If running 10” tires, I would probably rethink the length of this spacer. Looking at the pics, I’m surprised how much longer the actual spring/damper assembly is on the original VBA. Would longer travel (but same overall length) be better? My gut says yes, but evidence suggest the current P design is supreme. Maybe longer travel design will cause the spring to rub tire under compression?

37 - Bracket for CHT gauge.jpg
Bracket for CHT gauge. Made from flat steel stock and a rotary tool.

38 - Trailtech CHT gauge bracket installed.jpg
Trailtech CHT gauge bracket installed

39 - Trailtech CHT gauge mounted to mirror bracket.jpg
Trailtech CHT gauge fully mounted up and ready to ride.

40 - P200 on Left, VBA on Right..JPEG
P200 on Left, VBA on Right. Notice I tried stretching the ears on the VBA to fit the P series motor. It did not work.

41 - P200 Top, VBA middle, P-series fit for VBA length..jpg
P200 Top, VBA middle, P-series fit for VBA length. And yes I installed lock washers on the shock after this mockup pic.

Scooting the Ozarks is a scooter rally held in Eureka Springs, Arkansas offering riders scenic twisty rides, poker run, and more.   DoubleGood Vespa T-Shirts   Scooter Parts Company
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern
[ Time: 0.2984s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0369s) ][ Debug on ]