SIP Electronic Ignition Install + DC Conversion
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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:07 pm quote
I'd imagine you need this.. or one off an old flywheel..
https://www.scooterwest.com/electric-starter-ring-gear-for-flywheel-vespa-p200-199249-rg.html (only place I can find this part).

and do it this way:
But seeing as the vape flywheel does not have a slot for that ring gear, you would have to potentially take it to a machinist to mill out a slot for it that allows it to mount and sit at the right distance.

If you do attempt this.. please do post your process on a thread somewhere. I am really interested in seeing this take shape!
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2527

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:43 pm quote
First off, i suppose it would be best to find out what the OD is on a E start PX flywheel (at where the ring is pressed on). Next would be find out how far that portion of the Vape flywheel is away from the Stella case, when compared to how far the stock Stella’s flywheel ring gear is from the case. I’ve pressed a PX ring gear on a PX flywheel before. It wasn’t to difficult. I put the flywheel in the freezer for a few hours, and heated up the ring gear with a torch. It went together easily. I did it about 6 years ago, and it’s still in use today.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2527

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:59 pm quote
Too bad SIP doesn't also have a Vape install video of one of their DC kits. This video is for their AC version. www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxV7ZQol97o
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1440
Location: california
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:30 am quote
Chandlerman - I have this set up going on my current build.
Wonder the following from your experience - or others.

My plan was to home run everything to a switched distribution board that is powered by the battery - sits in trunk of my sidecar. Recharge power would come from my DC regulator straight to battery.

So regulator charges battery - but doesn’t directly run anything.

Looks like you might be running some of your “appliances” direct off your DC regulator?

Kick start.

Based on your experience, Any comments on my planned set up good or bad?
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 811
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:21 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Chandlerman - I have this set up going on my current build.
Wonder the following from your experience - or others.

My plan was to home run everything to a switched distribution board that is powered by the battery - sits in trunk of my sidecar. Recharge power would come from my DC regulator straight to battery.

So regulator charges battery - but doesn’t directly run anything.

Looks like you might be running some of your “appliances” direct off your DC regulator?

Kick start.

Based on your experience, Any comments on my planned set up good or bad?
Looking at the diagram I read the red => grey from the reg supplies the 12v while running. As to how the battery supplies when needed and charge gets back to the battery I assume it is via the ignition.

But the diagram is a little confusing because of the starter relay TO THE STARTER MOTOR. Sigh.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:52 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
I’ve wired the starter to the motogadget and made a custom switch. Not turning back on this now. So guess I have to figure how to press said whatever onto the new flywheel. Haven’t even removed the old one (like ever) so have no idea if the starter part is removable from the original? Need to finish the fork and headset first cause bits everywhere. Guess I’ll figure this out next. I’ll make a new thread for help I guess.
Yes the ring is removeable, probably with heat. My removal technique usually involves not particularly careful removal with an angle grinder.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2571
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:51 am quote
Catching up a bit since I have a little slack time this morning, If you think about a DC system, the load is going to flow to wherever the voltage is dropping. If you look at the wiring diagram, assuming you have the battery as part of the overall DC system, it will either absorb or augment any load beyond what the other parts of the system are consuming. All the regulator is doing is trying to maintain a steady 13.7v across the overall system.

So if you have more draw than the stator can support, e.g. you're me running a 110W hi beam with a 40W light bar, the stator will be putting out all the current it can, then the battery will be picking up the rest of the load until it runs out of juice. Conversely, if the load is less than the system requires, the battery will absorb excess current until its voltage matches that of the regulator's output, meaning it's fully charged.

As to e-start, it's drawing off the battery, but the amount is normally a tiny draw, unless you're having trouble getting started and grinding the starter. The battery will recharge from that burst of draw for a normal start in just a few minutes.

As to the starter ring, I think that you could fit one, but, as others have noted, you'd need to have a groove machined into the flywheel for it and figure out the exact spacing.

In my original installation pictures, I still had the starter motor installed, but that was because I'd been running a Pinasco FlyTech with the starter ring on it. I ditched that because I was sick of the CDI failing, which could only be ordered as an individual part from one site in Italy and the shipping cost more than the part. I now just have a cover plate on there.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1440
Location: california
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 am quote
Thanks for the clarification CM!

Read through again from start to end.
Have the DC variable VAPE going on my build.
Wiring seems fairly straightforward now that you explained.

Rumor mill has it (I being said mill) that SIP are planning a new CDI that will provide both touring options & race ones in the future.
Cool - but that won't be for a bit yet.
Could use some help setting up my likely starting point for current build - and sorting out trade offs.

I want to run cool of course - and keep the holes in my piston to only the ones I recklessly cut myself.
So knowing my driving style... here is what I suspect it would look like:

Max RPM (guess): 10K (-9°)
Frequently hit RPM before shifting: 8,500 (-7.5°)
Cruising speed: 5,500 - 6,500 (-4.5)
Occasional lugging around when just pottering about to get milk or coffee: 4000 (+1)

Questions:
1. Anyone care to opine on where my safe - and where would my more "sporty"- timings be set around 1000 to 1200 rpm idle?
2. It appears the CDI is at -2° already at 1000 rpm - then it retards, then it advances. Anyone wanna take a shot at why it does that? Head scratcher for me.

Tks!
-CM

timing_sip_vape_ignition_14879.jpg

Enthusiast
P200e
Joined: 29 Jul 2018
Posts: 50
Location: Orange , Ca
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:18 am quote
Just for reference polini makes a very nice electric start kit

CA617990-900F-4A1C-B285-D7066BB807EC.png

Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2571
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:26 am quote
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:07 pm quote
How many CDI's have gone bad on you Chandlerman? I'm pondering this for my smallframe - Scooter Center has been out of stock on the smallframe large taper BGM system for many weeks now. I'm debating the coolness of this vs. the easy ability to find Ducati CDI's and standard pickups that I'd get with that system....
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1440
Location: california
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:08 pm quote
Quote:
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:45 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!
timing would retard to 15 degrees. 15 is later (closer to TDC) than 24. Just wanted to clarify.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:07 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!
I may be wrong, but this is how I understood it as well, to figure out your cruising RPM then take the timing offset from the SIP curve at that RPM to adjust the cylinder appropriate timing to the correct timing at idle. So 18 degrees is your cruising performance timing at 7300. 24 degrees is your idle time and 15 and lower are your over rev times. Someone with more information can probably confirm or deny this thinking.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2571
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:30 pm quote
I've been running the SIP sport (variable timing) setup on both my Sprint and my Stella for one and almost two years respectively.

I had one CDI fail, but it was mostly just rotted wiring on the first CDI. Overall, I'm very happy with them, though.
Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 394
Location: Belgrade
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:13 pm quote
Hi all -- would just like to jump back in here, years after I started looking into it, and see if anybody has some specific advice about what to do with converting a batteryless AC Vespa PX to an all-DC PX. One that I can run a bright LED headlight, LED turn signals, and a proper loud horn on. Used to be that before this Vape dealy came out, the only option seemed to be to wire in a rectifier on your own, and add a battery. But now there's this, which seems a whole lot more straightforward. Which is good because electrics are by far my weakest suit.

Much of this has all been touched on in other threads, but here goes anyway:

1. To get the all-DC VAPE ignition working, would I need to buy a new wiring harness to replace my AC one I installed years ago?

2. If a new wiring harness is not absolutely necessary, I'd still imagine there'd be a ton of re-jiggering of the existing one. A great deal of soldering and insulating and such. Or would it be relatively straightforward?

3. What about the turn signal apparatus that bizarrely seems to be every bit as much of a hub in the wiring system as does the connector block behind the horncover? Would that have to change?

4. Would I need to add a battery?

5. To keep the SIP speedo showing RPMs, I'd need to either get this Koso "Rev Signal Filter" or run a wire from the brown wire on the CDI to the appropriate wire in the headset connected to the SIP speedo. Right?

6. Would the throttle-side control switch (with the horn button) need to change, if it's presently activating the A/C duck fart horn and I'd want it to activate a DC horn?

Thanks in advance for any advice you might have!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
4. Would I need to add a battery?
The only bit I can help with (have run all DC for years now but not on a P)... and the answer is no. It's just as happy to supply DC with or without a battery in the system.
Interestingly the Vape DC regulator happily supplied DC from a Piaggio (floated) stator when I managed to damage the Vape one
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2571
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:24 pm quote
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
Hi all -- would just like to jump back in here, years after I started looking into it, and see if anybody has some specific advice about what to do with converting a batteryless AC Vespa PX to an all-DC PX. One that I can run a bright LED headlight, LED turn signals, and a proper loud horn on. Used to be that before this Vape dealy came out, the only option seemed to be to wire in a rectifier on your own, and add a battery. But now there's this, which seems a whole lot more straightforward. Which is good because electrics are by far my weakest suit.

Much of this has all been touched on in other threads, but here goes anyway:

1. To get the all-DC VAPE ignition working, would I need to buy a new wiring harness to replace my AC one I installed years ago?
No new harness needed. Copper doesn't care how you push the electrons through it.
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
2. If a new wiring harness is not absolutely necessary, I'd still imagine there'd be a ton of re-jiggering of the existing one. A great deal of soldering and insulating and such. Or would it be relatively straightforward?
Probably less than you think. The circuits aren't changing, just whether it's AC or DC. You'll feed regulated DC into it where you feed it regulated AC today. If you have a regulator/rectifier, you'll need to bond the old AC & DC circuits together, but that's trivial.
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
3. What about the turn signal apparatus that bizarrely seems to be every bit as much of a hub in the wiring system as does the connector block behind the horncover? Would that have to change?
You'll need to get a new flasher unit, but you'd need that for LED bulbs anyway. Just get one with the same # of terminals (2 or 3) and you'll be fine.
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
4. Would I need to add a battery?
As noted above, not unless you want things to work when the motor isn't running.
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
5. To keep the SIP speedo showing RPMs, I'd need to either get this Koso "Rev Signal Filter" or run a wire from the brown wire on the CDI to the appropriate wire in the headset connected to the SIP speedo. Right?
This I don't know about, but that seems legit.
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
6. Would the throttle-side control switch (with the horn button) need to change, if it's presently activating the A/C duck fart horn and I'd want it to activate a DC horn?
The switch won't need to change, but you'll need to get a DC horn.
JimVanMorrissey wrote:
Thanks in advance for any advice you might have!
If you want to post a link to or copy of your wiring diagram, I can probably mark it up so you can see how little will be involved.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4426
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:06 pm quote
The battery will help you keep lights bright at idle, where stator output is usually too low to keep a bright headlight
Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 394
Location: Belgrade
Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:51 am quote
Thanks for the replies everyone. Lots of good news in there.

@Sdjohn -- my fantasy here is that an all-LED electrical situation throughout the bike, combined with the increased output from the Vape stator, would lead to no big drop in brightness at idle. But I guess there's only one way to find out.

Of course, honking the horn would probably dim the lights a fair deal. But that's no biggie.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2571
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:02 am quote
It'll be fine without the battery, I think. I've managed to blow the fuse to the battery a few times and had no issues running without it. The headlight gets a little flickery/strobe-y, but that's about it.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1440
Location: california
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:06 am quote
Jim,
I’ll defer to Chandlreman’s far superior knowledge on this.
He was the trailblazer on the Vape DC.
One mention: on the AC system you have now, both the brake switch on the floor, and the horn button on handlebar, are both set to be closed at rest - taking the power to a ground. When you press the button or step on the peddle it opens the circuit and removes the ground. That sends power to horn or brake light respectively.

Their is a DC switch that replaces the floor one (do urself a favor and epoxy the wires in - soldering is nearly impossible) and there is a slight difference to the handlebar switch too. A bit of careful bending of tabs can convert your existing switch to only close the circuit (complete the circuit) when the button is pushed rather then being completed only UNTIL the button is pushed

Chandler man can correct above if I have missed on anything.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:32 pm quote
Just thought I'd add this here.. FMP suggests that variable ignition is not actually providing more power for street usage. Not sure if he is limiting it to PNP or highly tuned engines, but he is testing it on a M244 quattrini.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WmuDy0nDeI

Also a bit of a lively discussion around it on his facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Ffreakmoped%2Fposts%2F2562987633809363&width=500
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:25 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Just thought I'd add this here.. FMP suggests that variable ignition is not actually providing more power for street usage. Not sure if he is limiting it to PNP or highly tuned engines, but he is testing it on a M244 quattrini.

Also a bit of a lively discussion around it on his facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Ffreakmoped%2Fposts%2F2562987633809363&width=500
Interesting. I would have thought it depends on the particular ignition - eg where the timing is sitting at a certain rpm whether or not it makes more power. Clearly there must be a trade-off in both types of ignition.
What's not discussed is ease of starting with variable, or cylinder temperature. When I first fitted the Kytronic a few years back I immediately saw lower temps.

Second half of the video - cruising uphill in 4th - anyone care to draw any conclusion? I didn't understand what it was meant to demonstrate.

The discussion is also classic FMP... when one guy suggests that the dyno chart is showing irrelevant information, and that the GSF dyno could extract acceleration data (surely the whole point of the video), he dismisses it and says it doesn't matter. He says he's not interested in the WHY, only the result. And wants to move on to the next topic. It's a half-arsed approach disguised as an impartial test. FMP told me he doesn't use the GSF dyno any more, my assumption is because he can't be bothered. As he says "the butt dyno tells him".
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:57 pm quote
I found that very interesting he suggested gsf Dyno doesn't matter much when he has made quite a few videos very recently using and pointing out the usefulness of gsf Dyno. I have messaged him a few times and he always responded with helpful but confusing (to me) answers. I think things get lost in translation or online as his syntax seems disjointed to me, so I chalk it up to that. Regardless, his videos are very helpful and I think the gist of his arguments are good in that there is a lot of confusion around many of these topics and it doesn't hurt to question why some parts and setups are used over others.

As for the variable, I think I'm understanding what people here and on his posts about it are suggesting, it really helps with temps and lower rpms, not so much meant to increase power output at the top end.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:10 pm quote
He says it doesn't matter to find out why - but yes he uses dyno charts all the time to prove his point. None are his though - they're all borrowed from the GSF etc. He often gets criticised on the GSF because people don't know what he means. Yes his videos can be useful but I do find it frustrating sometimes that obvious questions are not answered. A bit like Myth Busters!
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 676
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:48 pm quote
I think if cars and full size motorcycle internal combustion engines benefit from a properly setup ignition with timing that advances and retards so would a scooter. If you are not getting a benefit from the ignition I would say your setup is incorrect. A Kytronic for instance will retard timing to the baseline you normally use at a higher rpm so you should at a minimum be using the same timing as stock for a wide open throttle speed run.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 811
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:02 pm quote
Even mounting the CDI was a mission. The original mount had it 90deg out and hitting the starter motor. Love how the instructions are something like "mount the CDI with an appropriate mount"...

IMG_6488.jpg

IMG_6489.jpg

Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 811
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:22 pm quote
Trying to figure out if I can mount the starter ring gear on the flywheel. Not a lot of realestate to work with.

Screen Shot 2020-01-01 at 5.17.16 PM.png

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:07 am quote
After an unforseen fitment issue with trying to install the stock LML flywheel with autostart gear on my new 60mm crankshaft, I realized I need to install this SIP Vape kit instead. autostart gear on the old flywheel contacting cases now and crankshaft wont rotate.

So I've installed the vape stator plate and flywheel which rotates freely when torqued down. Setting up the ignition timing was pretty straightforward using SIP's instructions/video instructions. The T mark on the magnetic ring of their flywheel is used to figure out the timing. I have been mulling over the proper way to set ignition timing with variable ignition for months on here and in my head. I've decided I am making it more complicated in my mind and their instructions lay it out pretty easily once you get everything in front of you.

Since there is a T mark on the magnetic ring on the flywheel, when you set your timing using their instructions, your timing when you set that mark on the magnetic ring to the T on the stator plate equals your ignition timing.. and on the variable timing graph in the instructions and posted here.. the dotted line at the top labeled "timing" is this number. Knowing my kit is supposed to be set to 18 degrees, I am being slightly cautious in initial setup, so I set mine to 17 degrees at that "timing" mark. Which means that at idle, I will be at 15.5 degrees, between 3500-4,000 rpm, I will be at 17.7 degrees, and at cruising rpm of around 6500 I will be at 12.5 degrees. Once it runs and I can check it at idle and those other rpms, I can creep it back up to 18 if needed.

Regarding the electrical conversion on stella from AC to DC, I am taking it ultra slow cause I got nothing else to do which would make me rush. So today I just took a look at the wiring on the engine side and compared the old ignition to new to understand exactly what goes where on engine side.

I am posting images with descriptions of what goes where below. Tomorrow I will set these connections up, then make my way over to the battery side and start pulling wires out to try to line them up with chandlerman's initial dc conversion setup posted at the start of this topic.

IMG_20200318_122125.jpg
stock LML stator wiring on the ground. Stock LML wiring harness. green/red/white to same. Green being the kill switch. blue to yellow, black to black.

IMG_20200318_122231.jpg
sip vape wiring. red/white to red/white. brown to screw ground. need to fabricate a mounting plate as I did not purchase one. Thought it came in package.

IMG_20200318_122305.jpg
blue-white cable from the vape ht coil connects to the green wire from the stock lml wiring harness (kill switch). red/white from this stock connector do nothing now.

IMG_20200318_122406.jpg
stock lml harness yellow to vape stator blue. black to black.

IMG_20200318_122413.jpg
stock ht coil connection coming from stock cdi on the battery side. This will stay as a spare wire not connected to anything now.

IMG_20200318_122423.jpg
and a closeup of the stock lml wiring harness. Green will connect to blue-white wire coming from the vape ht coil/cdi. red/white just extra non-connected wires now.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:15 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
need to fabricate a mounting plate as I did not purchase one. Thought it came in package.
Yes I found that out too! Wish they made it clearer in their blurb. Nice write up Swiss.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:02 pm quote
I just found the original manufacturer wiring diagram for the vape dc rectifier, and noticed some slight differences between their diagram and the sip one which is the same product.

vape lists both wires coming from magneto across bike to battery side as black. SIP has converted one of those to blue. On my stella, this becomes yellow as the blue wire connects to yellow in the plastic junction box on the engine.

The vape dc rectifier then has two black wires connecting to both of those wires. There is nothing on the actual rectifier to signify what the difference is between them as I think they are treated equally, but I am curious what the difference is as sip has turned the other end coming from magneto one to blue and one staying black which tells me there is some difference in terms of what the magneto is sending.

The other main difference is the sip diagram shows a 15amp fuse inline between the rectifier red wire and battery positive with that red wire splitting off at the rectifier end to feed into the bikes power appliance line. The vape diagram shows the red wire from battery positive connecting directly to the dc rectifier red wire, and a separate red wire connecting to ignition lock with that 15amp fuse inline. SIPs limits 15amp to the rectifier where vape has no limit to rectifier. I'm assuming this is inconsequential. My reason for wondering about this is on the stella existing wiring as done by chandlerman early on in this thread, we tap into the orange wire after the fuse to connect to the rectifier red wire (because the orange wire is the ignition lock/power appliance line). One main difference is that the stella uses an 8amp fuse instead of a 15 amp fuse. I am wondering if that drastically smaller 8amp fuse inline between the dc rectifier and battery positive will alter or affect the rectifier's performance in any way?

Original vape wiring diagram included.. along with the link to chandlerman's originally uploaded sip diagram.

http://members.modernvespa.net/chandlerman/uploads/sip_ignition_installation_guide_pp3_4_54811.pdf

71ik_102.pdf
 Description:
vape manufacturer dc rectifier wiring diagram.

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 Filename:  71ik_102.pdf
 Filesize:  120.96 KB

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:19 pm quote
actually.. i just found a more detailed document from vape that explains exactly the question of blue/black wires from magneto into the double black connector on dc rectifier.

Those are both ac input coming from alternator.. I'm assuming they are the two poles of the alternating current feeding into the rectifier, which then comes out through the red wire on the rectifier which then goes either to the power appliance line down into the bike, or to the battery positive to charge the battery. Now there are essentially two grounding points on the dc rectifier.. one from the brown wire which on the wiring diagram connects to battery negative, and one to chassis which exists as a spade connector directly on the rectifier housing.

full pdf from vape attached, but also posting a jpg of just the one page detailing this magneto/rectifier wire differences.

So with all that said.. I believe my wiring conversion following chandlerman's updated diagram early on is as follows:

blue and black from vape magneto/stator to black/black connector on the rectifier (by way of yellow and black wires coming through frame from junction box on engine). red on rectifier to orange on stella.. but I add a jumper wire tapped into the orange to the fuse coming out of the battery positive so that it can charge the battery or get power from the battery. Brown from rectifier gets a new wire fed and tapped to the battery negative. spade connector on rectifier, I use the ring connector I will cut off from the original stella black wire coming from the engine junction box where it currently splits off from. then the spade connector is now grounding rectifier to frame separate from the ac wires from magneto. Finally, the violet and gray wires removed from the original stella ac regulator will get joined together to complete the two separate circuits of ac and dc in the power appliance line existing on the bike.

pictures attached.

115b72cc3156a912.85172132_Page_09.jpg
vape magneto wires and rectifier wires schematic explanation.

IMG_20200319_175040 (1).jpg
ac removed. this black wire is connected to the vape magneto black wire at junction box. I will cut off the ring connector to connect rectifier spade terminal to ground leaving black from magneto to connect to rectifier without ground inline currently.

IMG_20200319_175242.jpg
new dc vape rectifier.

115b72cc3156a912.85172132.pdf
 Description:
vape full kit technical document

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 Filename:  115b72cc3156a912.85172132.pdf
 Filesize:  410.94 KB

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:24 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I am wondering if that drastically smaller 8amp fuse inline between the dc rectifier and battery positive will alter or affect the rectifier's performance in any way?
Considering that the output of the Vape is stated as 110 watts total, at 13.2 volts that's 8.3 amps, and less as the voltage rises... and not all of that power is going to the battery. So it might be ok but worth going bigger just in case I would have thought.

Nice find Swiss!

Don't think you saw this - Vape switchable ignition curves - not available through SIP as yet but guess it's only a matter of time.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:38 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
I am wondering if that drastically smaller 8amp fuse inline between the dc rectifier and battery positive will alter or affect the rectifier's performance in any way?
Considering that the output of the Vape is stated as 110 watts total, at 13.2 volts that's 8.3 amps, and less as the voltage rises... and not all of that power is going to the battery. So it might be ok but worth going bigger just in case I would have thought.

Nice find Swiss!

Don't think you saw this - Vape switchable ignition curves - not available through SIP as yet but guess it's only a matter of time.
I am assuming you are getting 13.2 volts from the output of the battery? I'm terrible at electrical so I feel dumb when discussing it. I went out in garage today before work to quickly take a look and noticed that someone had replaced my 8amp fuse in the holder inline to the battery positive with a 20 amp 32 volt 3ag fuse. So the fuse inline is 20amp. I also broke the fuse holder as the plastic is brittle and old so I now need to replace it. Any reason to switch to the typical car fuse styles with a single fuse holder like this over the current sealed glass fuse?
https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-Amp-Mini-Blade-Fuse/dp/B0024JT6XM

I did see that thread originally but didn't really get into it as I am not ready to contemplate the concept of choosing my own variable ignition curves, but from the looks of the kit, it seems like that box is a cdi wired inline in the same way the stella's stock cdi is wired, but if it has an ignition curve in the current ht coil then how does wiring that cdi inline override the existing curve?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2527

Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:06 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
I am wondering if that drastically smaller 8amp fuse inline between the dc rectifier and battery positive will alter or affect the rectifier's performance in any way?
Considering that the output of the Vape is stated as 110 watts total, at 13.2 volts that's 8.3 amps, and less as the voltage rises... and not all of that power is going to the battery. So it might be ok but worth going bigger just in case I would have thought.

Nice find Swiss!

Don't think you saw this - Vape switchable ignition curves - not available through SIP as yet but guess it's only a matter of time.
I am assuming you are getting 13.2 volts from the output of the battery? I'm terrible at electrical so I feel dumb when discussing it. I went out in garage today before work to quickly take a look and noticed that someone had replaced my 8amp fuse in the holder inline to the battery positive with a 20 amp 32 volt 3ag fuse. So the fuse inline is 20amp. I also broke the fuse holder as the plastic is brittle and old so I now need to replace it. Any reason to switch to the typical car fuse styles with a single fuse holder like this over the current sealed glass fuse?
https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-Amp-Mini-Blade-Fuse/dp/B0024JT6XM

I did see that thread originally but didn't really get into it as I am not ready to contemplate the concept of choosing my own variable ignition curves, but from the looks of the kit, it seems like that box is a cdi wired inline in the same way the stella's stock cdi is wired, but if it has an ignition curve in the current ht coil then how does wiring that cdi inline override the existing curve?
I’d definitely convert over to an automotive blade fuse! That’s how the later PX’s left the factory (with the standard size blade fuse though).
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:43 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I’d definitely convert over to an automotive blade fuse! That’s how the later PX’s left the factory (with the standard size blade fuse though).
I decided to do that before seeing this as I couldn't find the original style holder just the modern style. I also replaced it with 15amp fuse.

I finished the dc conversion wiring on the battery side and 3 things:

1.) it works. lights come on with ignition key in on position.

2.) the blinkers are crazy now.. which is unexpected as I had already switched the blinker relay for an LED one.. I assumed that would be compatible with straight dc signal. I'll have to look into figuring out the correct one and replacing it.

3.) my main concern... there is a loud buzzing sound as soon as i turn the ignition on that never stops. Something probably in the original ac line doesn't like the dc signal. I am not exactly sure what it is that is making the noise. I don't think that it is the blinker speaker as that makes its own noise at the front of the scoot, the buzzing sound comes from the back near the engine.

video of sound
https://youtu.be/emuZOthsZ-w

My best guess on what is making the noise are the cut out relay, the new vape ht coil, the flasher unit, flasher buzzer? The only other thing I can think of in that area is the newly installed fuel tap with reserve warning light which is connected to the original dc line so it shouldn't be affected by the transition to dc. Not sure which. I have removed the starter motor so currently the cut out relay has 4 wires connected to it, 1 of which are not connected to anything on the engine side as it was connected to the starter motor. blue was the starter motor to cut out relay, red/orange to fuse and the dc regulator/battery, brown to start push button and pink to what looks like the prd relay in headset.

Wiring diagram from original ac on stella and chandlermans new dc conversion diagram which I followed and wired same.

Posting the full process leading up to this point on my thread as to not clutter this thread with my need for providing way too many photos of minor steps in the process.

stella ac wiring diagram.jpg
original ac/dc wiring in bike.

dc conversion buzzing problem 1.jpg
potential bad sound sources?

dc conversion buzzing problem 2.jpg
other potential sound sources?

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2527

Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:51 pm quote
When you hear that sound, get to high ground!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhgb6uENaes
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:31 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
When you hear that sound, get to high ground!
my thought exactly. I was like "oh f...." I hate electrical!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7663
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Apr 09, 2020 10:15 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
I am wondering if that drastically smaller 8amp fuse inline between the dc rectifier and battery positive will alter or affect the rectifier's performance in any way?
Considering that the output of the Vape is stated as 110 watts total, at 13.2 volts that's 8.3 amps, and less as the voltage rises... and not all of that power is going to the battery. So it might be ok but worth going bigger just in case I would have thought.

Nice find Swiss!

Don't think you saw this - Vape switchable ignition curves - not available through SIP as yet but guess it's only a matter of time.
I am assuming you are getting 13.2 volts from the output of the battery? I'm terrible at electrical so I feel dumb when discussing it.
This bit is actually easy - SIP says the Vape puts out 110 watts. All you do is divide the watts by the voltage, and that gives you the amps that are flowing through a given wire or device.
Without going into it too far, 13.2 volts is I guess the lowest useful voltage the stator puts out. If it isn't higher than 12 volts it won't flow into the battery. Sometimes it will go as high as 16, depending on the situation.

That sound you hear might be the stator! Ages ago I was getting sick of starting it up to check that my work on the lights was actually doing something, so I hooked up a battery from the car to the electrical system... congratulated myself on such a clever idea.
Except when I did, the stator buzzed loudly! I guess it may have been energising the coils and creating some sort of magnetism? Not sure exactly but that was definitely where it was coming from.
The sound was not as high pitched as yours but then it was a different stator.
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