SIP Electronic Ignition Install + DC Conversion
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Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1229
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:07 pm quote
I'd imagine you need this.. or one off an old flywheel..
https://www.scooterwest.com/electric-starter-ring-gear-for-flywheel-vespa-p200-199249-rg.html (only place I can find this part).

and do it this way:
But seeing as the vape flywheel does not have a slot for that ring gear, you would have to potentially take it to a machinist to mill out a slot for it that allows it to mount and sit at the right distance.

If you do attempt this.. please do post your process on a thread somewhere. I am really interested in seeing this take shape!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1875

Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:43 pm quote
First off, i suppose it would be best to find out what the OD is on a E start PX flywheel (at where the ring is pressed on). Next would be find out how far that portion of the Vape flywheel is away from the Stella case, when compared to how far the stock Stella’s flywheel ring gear is from the case. I’ve pressed a PX ring gear on a PX flywheel before. It wasn’t to difficult. I put the flywheel in the freezer for a few hours, and heated up the ring gear with a torch. It went together easily. I did it about 6 years ago, and it’s still in use today.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1875

Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:59 pm quote
Too bad SIP doesn't also have a Vape install video of one of their DC kits. This video is for their AC version. www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxV7ZQol97o
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 758
Location: california
Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:30 am quote
Chandlerman - I have this set up going on my current build.
Wonder the following from your experience - or others.

My plan was to home run everything to a switched distribution board that is powered by the battery - sits in trunk of my sidecar. Recharge power would come from my DC regulator straight to battery.

So regulator charges battery - but doesn’t directly run anything.

Looks like you might be running some of your “appliances” direct off your DC regulator?

Kick start.

Based on your experience, Any comments on my planned set up good or bad?
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bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 540
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:21 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Chandlerman - I have this set up going on my current build.
Wonder the following from your experience - or others.

My plan was to home run everything to a switched distribution board that is powered by the battery - sits in trunk of my sidecar. Recharge power would come from my DC regulator straight to battery.

So regulator charges battery - but doesn’t directly run anything.

Looks like you might be running some of your “appliances” direct off your DC regulator?

Kick start.

Based on your experience, Any comments on my planned set up good or bad?
Looking at the diagram I read the red => grey from the reg supplies the 12v while running. As to how the battery supplies when needed and charge gets back to the battery I assume it is via the ignition.

But the diagram is a little confusing because of the starter relay TO THE STARTER MOTOR. Sigh.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7129
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:52 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
I’ve wired the starter to the motogadget and made a custom switch. Not turning back on this now. So guess I have to figure how to press said whatever onto the new flywheel. Haven’t even removed the old one (like ever) so have no idea if the starter part is removable from the original? Need to finish the fork and headset first cause bits everywhere. Guess I’ll figure this out next. I’ll make a new thread for help I guess.
Yes the ring is removeable, probably with heat. My removal technique usually involves not particularly careful removal with an angle grinder.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2268
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:51 am quote
Catching up a bit since I have a little slack time this morning, If you think about a DC system, the load is going to flow to wherever the voltage is dropping. If you look at the wiring diagram, assuming you have the battery as part of the overall DC system, it will either absorb or augment any load beyond what the other parts of the system are consuming. All the regulator is doing is trying to maintain a steady 13.7v across the overall system.

So if you have more draw than the stator can support, e.g. you're me running a 110W hi beam with a 40W light bar, the stator will be putting out all the current it can, then the battery will be picking up the rest of the load until it runs out of juice. Conversely, if the load is less than the system requires, the battery will absorb excess current until its voltage matches that of the regulator's output, meaning it's fully charged.

As to e-start, it's drawing off the battery, but the amount is normally a tiny draw, unless you're having trouble getting started and grinding the starter. The battery will recharge from that burst of draw for a normal start in just a few minutes.

As to the starter ring, I think that you could fit one, but, as others have noted, you'd need to have a groove machined into the flywheel for it and figure out the exact spacing.

In my original installation pictures, I still had the starter motor installed, but that was because I'd been running a Pinasco FlyTech with the starter ring on it. I ditched that because I was sick of the CDI failing, which could only be ordered as an individual part from one site in Italy and the shipping cost more than the part. I now just have a cover plate on there.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 758
Location: california
Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:54 am quote
Thanks for the clarification CM!

Read through again from start to end.
Have the DC variable VAPE going on my build.
Wiring seems fairly straightforward now that you explained.

Rumor mill has it (I being said mill) that SIP are planning a new CDI that will provide both touring options & race ones in the future.
Cool - but that won't be for a bit yet.
Could use some help setting up my likely starting point for current build - and sorting out trade offs.

I want to run cool of course - and keep the holes in my piston to only the ones I recklessly cut myself.
So knowing my driving style... here is what I suspect it would look like:

Max RPM (guess): 10K (-9°)
Frequently hit RPM before shifting: 8,500 (-7.5°)
Cruising speed: 5,500 - 6,500 (-4.5)
Occasional lugging around when just pottering about to get milk or coffee: 4000 (+1)

Questions:
1. Anyone care to opine on where my safe - and where would my more "sporty"- timings be set around 1000 to 1200 rpm idle?
2. It appears the CDI is at -2° already at 1000 rpm - then it retards, then it advances. Anyone wanna take a shot at why it does that? Head scratcher for me.

Tks!
-CM

timing_sip_vape_ignition_14879.jpg

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P200e
Joined: 29 Jul 2018
Posts: 37
Location: Orange , Ca
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:18 am quote
Just for reference polini makes a very nice electric start kit

CA617990-900F-4A1C-B285-D7066BB807EC.png

Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2268
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:26 am quote
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4068
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:07 pm quote
How many CDI's have gone bad on you Chandlerman? I'm pondering this for my smallframe - Scooter Center has been out of stock on the smallframe large taper BGM system for many weeks now. I'm debating the coolness of this vs. the easy ability to find Ducati CDI's and standard pickups that I'd get with that system....
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 758
Location: california
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:08 pm quote
Quote:
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4068
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:45 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!
timing would retard to 15 degrees. 15 is later (closer to TDC) than 24. Just wanted to clarify.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1229
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:07 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
My current thinking on setting timing is to base it on the cyliner's recommended timing being accurate at peak power, so around 7,000-7,500 RPM's. When you're at lower RPM's, so long as your jetting is good, you'll be cooler and it won't be an issue.
Thanks.

Good and simple rule of thumb.
If I got it right - would look something like this:

So if cylinder called for 18°BTDC, and VAPE retards 6° at 7300 RPM, then I would set idle timing at 24°.

If I get a little trigger happy with the throttle - hey - it happens - and find my way to say 9500 RPM, timing would advance to about ~15°.

Did I get that mostly right?
Much appreciated CM!
I may be wrong, but this is how I understood it as well, to figure out your cruising RPM then take the timing offset from the SIP curve at that RPM to adjust the cylinder appropriate timing to the correct timing at idle. So 18 degrees is your cruising performance timing at 7300. 24 degrees is your idle time and 15 and lower are your over rev times. Someone with more information can probably confirm or deny this thinking.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2268
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:30 pm quote
I've been running the SIP sport (variable timing) setup on both my Sprint and my Stella for one and almost two years respectively.

I had one CDI fail, but it was mostly just rotted wiring on the first CDI. Overall, I'm very happy with them, though.
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