Meet "Buffy"
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri May 25, 2018 4:57 am quote
If I didn't see it coming together in the pictures, I wouldn't have believed it was possible!
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1041
Location: Siam
Fri May 25, 2018 7:07 am quote
It definitely serves as a clear warning to anyone thinking about buying body repair panels. I couldn't deal with that level of difficulty in getting them to fit.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue May 29, 2018 7:44 am quote
Grrrr.

Since Buffy's powerplant is meant to be as close as possible to a fraternal twin of Neo's, I've been trying to make sure I keep the internals the same.

I've struck trouble. Only one website has stock of the BGM Pro Racing full circle 51mm stroke, 105mm. 20mm cone crankshaft, https://www.10pollici.com. It's where Ginch bought his. Except, having talked to him and paid for one, he's suddenly incommunicative, and had marked it as "Backordered".

Rather annoying, given that I already have one of these https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/ignition+sip+performance+by_51008sd0 to fit the 20/20 cone, and one of these http://www.scooter-center.com/product/3330744 to allow conversion to a needle bearing.

Last time I asked SC about when they'll have stock, it was "some time after July".

Any thoughts on what else I could use?
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1306
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue May 29, 2018 8:48 am quote
That sucks. First off, I wouldn't trust SCK on their estimated stock arrival. When I was in the market for my first P series 60mm rotary crank, they told me to wait for about a month and they eventually told me that they had no updates on when it would be available. It eventually became available after 6 months but I had already gone the Pinasco route. The 10Pollici site has another 51mm full circle crank, along with cylinder studs and a base packer but it seems to be mislabeled as a 20mm cone (on SCK it's labeled as a 24mm cone). Maybe you could machine the crank or the flywheel??

24mm cone
http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/7673153/

Mislabeled 20mm cone??
https://www.10pollici.com/it/homepage/vespa-classica/motore/alberi-motore/smallframe/kit-albero-motore-bgm-pro-racing-volani-tondi-corsa-51mm-biella-105mm-cono-20mm-ets.1.1.19.gp.1155.uw

On SCK's site
http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/7673185/
Hooked
vespa 125 vnb1t
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Posts: 365
Location: antibes , france
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4395
Location: So Cal
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue May 29, 2018 2:08 pm quote
First, who's this Neo dude?

So the taper is the same 20 and 24 according to a couple of sources. (https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/parts/sf.cranks.html)

It's just the bearing and seal that is different.

I just measured my crank, it's 25 at the bearing (that's what makes it an ETS afaik), it's 24 at the seal, and the cone fits the VMC flywheel which is a 20. edit: Just measured the largest part of the cone and it's 20mm. Doh.
No idea in that case what makes this a "20mm cone" and why mine is not marked as a 24?

But the main thing is that the P flywheel bearing will fit with an inner diameter of 25mm. And the adaptor to fit in the case is designed for that bearing. You can get a seal to fit with a 24 inner and 32 outer. I'm ordering these - https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oil+seal+set+engine+_91126000

So I reckon you'll be right ordering the 24 crank from SCK. http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/7673185/

a20180530_075445.jpg

Member
1977 Vespa P200E, 1974 Vespa Super 150
Joined: 15 May 2011
Posts: 49
Location: Arizona
Tue May 29, 2018 5:31 pm quote
Looking great!! Nice job!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:47 am quote
Progress...

The inner guards are once again set in place, squared up, and welded in



and with that, all it took was some slight relieving of the engine mount through holes for the outer shells to fit on perfectly.



Whoohoo!

After the test fit, off it all came to drill holes



holes,



and even more holes...



One hundred and thirty three holes in total.

So, all the parts are now clamped with as many clamps as possible,



Buffy's ready for a welding frenzy tomorrow afternoon.
Addicted
2006 LX150 (carbed) | 2007 GT200
Joined: 29 Jun 2016
Posts: 566
Location: Toronto
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:06 am quote
Looks good! Glad to see you back at it!
Molto Verboso
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 1949
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:48 am quote
part of what I'm loving about this thread is seeing what goes into actually assembling a metal frame.

I'm guessing that the screws are just to hold it all together for welding purposes?
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:03 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
I'm guessing that the screws are just to hold it all together for welding purposes?
Yep, poor mans Clecos.

So this afternoon went like this.

Clamp clamp clamp clamp



Clamp clamp clamp, weld weld weld



Weld weld weld weld



Weld weld weld weld weld weld



Weld weld weld weld weld weld weld weld




Rest,



Beer.

Grinding begins Tuesday.


Meanwhile, Ginch is helping me navigate the treacherous waters of ordering the few thousand parts needed to finish off the running gear.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4395
Location: So Cal
Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:55 am quote
^ That was some quality garage time ^
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3733
Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:05 am quote
Good to see you are putting some of that tangerine colour back into it
Hooked
vespa 125 vnb1t
Joined: 13 Jul 2011
Posts: 365
Location: antibes , france
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:02 am quote
nice
a tip for grinding the welds down use flap discs not the not the stone type
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3604
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:09 am quote
Buffy's definitely gonna make it...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:23 pm quote
Looks great. How did the tail come out? I know you were a bit concerned.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5303
Location: Indo
Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:43 pm quote
thats marvelous mate just marvelous
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3733
Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:27 am quote
I’ll have to come ova & visit soon
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a herd of easy shifty rats
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6690
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:18 am quote
Fabrication par excellence! And you're just learning as you go, but you seem to have a great feel for it and you paid attention in geometry class.

Anything more going on w/ the motor yet or do you need to wait for parts? Can't wait to see the end result.
Molto Verboso
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 1949
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:45 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Yep, poor mans Clecos.
I hadn't heard of Cleco's until now, and just spent an hour watching youtube video's on Cleco's and welding, which is one of those things that's been on my "to learn" list for years.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:47 am quote
Cheers all. The road's not over, but I'm happy with where she's at, and what I've learned.

Tail looks pretty good Ginch. I did a lot of measuring and maths to get the height right so the engine should sit correctly. (V oodoo, I distinctly remember using Pythagoras' rule about 15 years after I left school, and feeling quite proud!) I figure with the main engine mount being square to the frame, the rear (and therefore the top shock mount) can be a mm or two to either side without affecting the thrust line, so I concentrated on getting the rear seam to run straight up and down. It was all square before the hot gun, and when I finished welding, I wanted a beer more than I wanted to re setup the laser. I'll check it next week, and I've still got the bottom bracing to go in if it's shifted.

S.E.B., anytime you'd like a beer, it's on me.

Engine wise, a fair chunk of this years discretionary spend (a.k.a., money the Mrs doesn't know I've spent...) is tied up in 5 different packages currently heading here from SIP and Scooter Center. Since I'm pretty much a novice here, I'm cheating like crazy here and following the lead of Ginch in his One Smallframe thread. I reckon it should be a fun powerplant.

Thanks for the encouragement and help.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1041
Location: Siam
Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:38 am quote
I guess some high-end shops in the US and Europe do work like this, but I've never seen anything to this extent. It's great to see it. Tip'o the🎩.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:18 am quote
Shipscat, flapdisks are good, but that can be dangerous with 1mm thick auto panel -they can suck through the panel super quick. These are even better - grit disks with a stiffener behind them - they let you really work neatly (although you only ever wear out the edges on jobs like these). Awesome for taking down welds.



So I ground



and ground



and ground



and ground



and ground some more...



Then I put her back on the jig to see how the tail looked. Which was pretty nice.



Just needs a little tweaking at the bottom rear corner of the door opening to ease the slight curve out of the seam line.

So we leaned on it, tig'd up the inner base of the seam of the tail, then mig'd in the rear bracing



and the front



The tail still still needs a very slight tweak with the slide persuader, but I'm pretty happy with it.

So happy I couldn't help but look to the future



Soon my pretty...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:28 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Soon my pretty...
All of us here will look back in the future and say that we were at the Great Unveiling, 2018.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:36 am quote
I think we need to have a closer look at this while the frames are bare... it's not that the hole needs enlarging so much as the hole kind of needs to go around the corner. Some study needed.

Clipboard01.jpg

a20180614_074129.jpg

Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4395
Location: So Cal
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:46 am quote
Jig, Tig and Mig are Buffy’s best friends
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1041
Location: Siam
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:39 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
I think we need to have a closer look at this while the frames are bare... it's not that the hole needs enlarging so much as the hole kind of needs to go around the corner. Some study needed.
Is that allen-head screw at the top going in at an angle?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:20 pm quote
nomadinsiam wrote:
Ginch wrote:
I think we need to have a closer look at this while the frames are bare... it's not that the hole needs enlarging so much as the hole kind of needs to go around the corner. Some study needed.
Is that allen-head screw at the top going in at an angle?
Could be. They're just sitting in there at the moment.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:23 am quote
Behold the fruits of today's labor at the lathe.



While some may think it overkill, I like to envisage the time spent as a humble offering to those equally elusive, but always competing gods, Speed and Reliability.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a herd of easy shifty rats
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6690
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:50 pm quote
The frame's coming right along. It will be interesting and instructive to see what you & Ginch end up with for your motors but I suppose you're still waiting for parts. If you didn't spot this thread in the PROJECTS section, I think you might enjoy it: VBC1t super150
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:36 pm quote
Yeah I have two orders still sitting at IPZ-Ffm (some kind of in-between world no doubt) in Germany, one since the 13th and the other since the 7th!! Normally I get them in 10 days tops.

Bearing dummies are looking good Craig!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:02 am quote
Engine mounts are in place





and have been welded in either side (Mig'd and Tig'd!!)

Which means things are getting close.

So I couldn't help but try a little leg shield preview.





Mmmm. Tasty.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:44 am quote
Picked up Buffy's engine cases from the Hydroblaster today. Nice bloke, does good work.


Before



After



Soooo nice and clean!

Then on to Mat's factory.

Choke mechanism went back in



Than Mat and I thought and re thought, measured marked and remeasured, jiggled, squeezed, and marked up the legshield,





It's ready for prep and welding.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:16 am quote
Measure and mark,



Then, after a very deep breath, punch, pilot drill, drill, and de-burr.



That was fun
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:19 am quote
More work Friday arvo.

Finally figured out how to put the choke actuator back together. Simple when it's done, harder when your looking in a box of bits.



Then ran cables, lots of cables through the spine for use installing all the control cables and wiring later.



That's 5 bicycle gear cables, 3 runs of lightweight balustrading cable and 4 runs of mig wire just in case.

Time for these two to be properly and formally introduced.



Some initial gentle squeezing on a well lit table with plenty of room in the middle of the factory to begin the process, with final measuring, marking and tweaking taking place.



Then a buttload of clamps...



That many clamps adds a _lot_ of weight!. Turning it over with all the clamps was tricky and took two of us, and after a narrowly averted almost disastrous fall, we added a table clamp for stability.



The rule for plug welding is to double clamp every hole individually so the hole to be welded if perfectly mated, and wind the welder up as hot as you dare. The closer you are to an ugly burn through, the better the weld. Mating the thin legshield to the much thicker spine and getting good penetration is tricky. I'd much rather risk a burn through and have to do a fair bit of grinding than not get good strong penetration.

Setting up the clamps every time, and doing it right means each of these welds takes about a minute of setup before the 3 or 4 seconds of bright light.



So after a couple of hours of setup and measuring while clamping, welding just the two sides of the base took well over an hour.

But after turning it over, it was good to see the strong penetration achieved.



Next job will be to re clamp, and weld the front of the legshield.



But I decided to stop for the day, because I was starting to rush the welds, and I reckon I actually need to buy another clamp to get around the curves and secure stuff properly for these plugs.

I reckon Buffy's starting to look whole again.



Progress.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:29 am quote
Work has been a little nuts this week, but I snuck out and got a few more hours in at the factory this arvo.

Challenge today was getting the legshield curve to mate to the spine.



Where it curves, it was sitting out from the spine . You can see in the photo above how the holes aren't touching the spine (if there's a shadow, there's a gap.)



There's some big gaps there.

This is really hard to clamp - it needs to be "walked" down, one hole at a time, but without distorting the thin metal with the clamps, as well as always keeping the centerline from shifting.

Because these welds give monocoque construction most of it's strength and support, I've made the plug holes as large as I dare. If there's the slightest gap between the thin sheetmetal of the legshield and the much heavier gauge spine, instead of a plugweld that can be ground flat, you get penetration into the thick spine, but then the weld "bubbles" up under the thinner sheet, and instead of seeing a weld pool that wells up, fills the hole, and consumed the edges, you get a runaway burn that sits up on a shelf of weld, and will never sit flat. (Hard won knowledge...)

So I made a couple of pads I could use under the clamps, using some 4mm aluminum. With it's edges ground down to avoid lumps an scratches, and a hole to weld through, it's thick enough to just bend a little when clamped, but then spring back, and they let me "walk" the gaps down to the top of the legshield, without kinking the thin sheetmetal.






It was really slow going, because before every weld I had to position and clamp the pad in a way that held the two pieces super tight together, positioned so it could be welded through, then check that the legshield centerline aligned (it was trying to shift from side to side with every squeeze of a clamp.) . Usually about 3-4 retries per hole before it was ready. Then, to try to get the best possible weld, I'd clip the ball off the end of the mig wire , glove up, helmet on and up, position the torch, helmet down, and burn away.

After a couple of hours, the legshield was solidly on.

Lots of strong welds, good penetration.



Milestone moment.




Then, on with the safety glasses and the bluetooth earmuffs, tunes turned up, and the grinding began...



and went on



and on...



And when I left there was more to go, but the fact the legshield is on makes it kinda fun.

A question for the wise at this point: The Resto book mentions bracing at the top of the legshield, some sort of "wings" coming off the spine stiffening the top of the legshield. Buffy had none, and I'd like to fabricate some.

Can anyone point to some photo's of put some up with some measurements?

Starting to feel like Buffy's actually going to make it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6677
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:45 am quote
Awesome.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4395
Location: So Cal
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:14 am quote
Good work man!

None of the smallies I’ve seen have reinforcement “wings” on the inside of the legshield. I believe those are only on large frames.

You will need reinforcement struts for the floor though. Check out the pic in the link below. SIP sells the struts separately if you don’t already have them.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/repair+sheet+floor+board+for_pv153470

08564A17-4A89-49BD-9C3D-E83F7333E9B7.jpeg

Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 617

Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:40 am quote
Are you talking about these X and K supports for center stand slap?

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Floorboards/FLOORCORNER-SF
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