Meet "Buffy"
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Addicted
2008 GTS 250, 1979 P200E
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 912
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:05 am quote
This is the coolest thread - I've never seen anything like this. What an awesome job!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1250

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:16 am quote
This thread is destined to become a "sticky"! I'm really, really, really enjoying reading this one.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:48 pm quote
Wings of a dove...

a20180704_083421.jpg

a20180704_083147.jpg

a20180704_084137.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
a herd of easy shifty rats
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6689
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:12 pm quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
...

A question for the wise at this point: The Resto book mentions bracing at the top of the legshield, some sort of "wings" coming off the spine stiffening the top of the legshield. Buffy had none, and I'd like to fabricate some.

Can anyone point to some photo's of put some up with some measurements?

Starting to feel like Buffy's actually going to make it.
I was surprised to check & find that it's missing on smallies, but there's a space for it and I think it would be a smart addition as it does stiffen that top edge. I also measured one on a VBA and got about 280 mm(smallie would need shorter) x about 11 to 12mm, varies x 3 mm thick w/ rounded ends like Ginch's pic.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:35 pm quote
Maybe it was left off on later frames? The one I measured is a '66.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a herd of easy shifty rats
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6689
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:48 pm quote


This is on your Bluebadge smallie then. Huh, weird, none to be seen on a '64 90, '74 Primavera or '80 50 Special... Maybe Bluebadge only?
Anybody else w/ wings on their smallie?

Wingless:

Img_9867.jpg
'64

Img_9868.jpg
'74

Img_9870.jpg
and '80, obviously plenty of room for a helpful wing

Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5300
Location: Indo
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:55 am quote
i dont have it as well on my 80's smallie


Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:26 am quote
Thanks Guys.

I was amazed how much the legshield stiffened up from being a loose single part to being an integrated part of the spine, but I recon "wings" will help protect to corners from being bent by the casual heavyweight leaning on them. I don't have a photo to hand, but my memory is that that gap between the top of the spine/steering mount and the top of the legshield is less than it is on Ginch's Bluebadge, so I might just have to fab up whatever will fit.

A quick scan of Voodoo's photo's has me thinking that the legshield beading when fitted doesn't protrude past the inner edge of the scallop on the outer edge of the legshield (I hope that makes sense), so as long as I'm lower than where the scallop begins I'll be ok?

Craig

P.S. - This has been a fun project, but like all things, at time has been a drag. Mat's factory is a 45-60 minute drive from home, and welding grinding and worrying aren't always fun. I'm a vespa neophyte, and you've all been awesome with your help and encouragement for a project that could have (and still may yet) gone horribly wrong.

A big "Thankyou!" to all of you for the encouragement and the help and guidance so far. If Buffy turns out right, she'll be a testament to the knowledge and spirit of the community here.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:21 am quote
A close inspection of the cases after hydroblasting showed up a nasty consequence of trying to maximise the case volume when milling out cases as old as I am for a modern design full circle crank...

What looked like a discolouration attracted my attention, and investigation with a sharp stylus uncovered an ugly break through.





Ummm.

Ummm.



Fuck fuck fuckity fuck Fuck!!!



Ok, that feels better.

Time for the casings to go into my $10 ebay oven.



With a strip of stainless inside the compression chamber, we (I say "We", but my mate Mat did the work, with me hovering like a bloody annoying insect giving unwanted and uneducated advise - my specialty in these situations...) blobbed in a patch,



Despite the stainless shaper, it still looks ugly as hell on the inside



but the outer looks like it's sealed



Didn't want to go any further, lest we reduce the still intact gasket surface above the patch.

Since we had the oven hot, we decided to re-heat, and let in some extra alloy so the case transfers could get ground out.

Side A went well



Side B was going well, then it sagged in a way what was as impressive as it was annoying...

I reckon we all had at least one pimple that felt this big and this tragic when we were teenagers getting ready for a date...



Plenty of new meat to work with though.



So on Sunday, I went back to my buddy's place and we re-milled the case flat.



Went back to the factory today.

There was a 15mm gap at the rear of the legshield where the new shield didn't mate up to the inner guard extension at the rear.

I was looking for some 1mm sheet to cut out with an angle grinder, and bend with a hammer and a vise.

Mat laughed and asked if I'd brought beer (silly question). Then he grabbed some mirror finish 1mm stainless, and headed over to his cutting weapon of choice, the 5 meter guilotine



before heading to his folding/bending weapon of choice, the 4 meter CNC brake press



which made short work of a 169mm long piece of 1mm mirror stainless



I maintain that I could have achieved the same result with a grinder a hammer and a hitting thing, but why not use the tools if you have them.



Soo, that...





is Buffy's legshield base closed up.
Hooked
'14 Vespa 946, '18 Yamaha Xmax
Joined: 21 May 2016
Posts: 367
Location: Spotsylvania, VA
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:41 am quote
Amazing build thread, thanks so much for sharing.

Eric
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:35 am quote
Got some serious numbers for Ginch and I's engines when I went to my buddy Alan's (He of the home workshop full of fun spinny CNC toys) real workplace today. I've put the photo's and numbers here so the serious number discussions can take place over at the One small frame for man thread.



He only had a little CMM running this afternoon, but we made do.

We put up the first engine (Michael's), with the piston at TDC (re-measured with a dial indicator).



We touched off the face of the cylinder, and established a plane there as a base.



Next we touched around outside wall of the protruding piston to give us a reference circle to work within.

Finally, we touched off four points as close to the outer edge of the face of the cylinder as possible, two in line with the gudgeon pin and two perpendicular to it. We may have got some minuscule piston rock on the across touches (no rings), so we'll trust the "along" numbers. Here they all are.



Basically, they show that along the gudgeon pin, the piston edges protrude 1.6251mm (averaged), and across it, 1.6118mm. So lets call it 1.63mm for our purposes.

Next the second engiine (Mine(Well, Buffy's!!) went up.



After the TDC procedure, we measured again



Across the pin we'll call mine 1.94mm

Next we measured the cylinder itself, including some numbers for future reference in case we want to mill replacements later (Outer holes, combustion chamber sphere etc)



The squish area of the cylinder head is a sloped ramp, which then meets a short outer cylindrical wall, which then in turn meets the outer mating face.

We need to know the height of that cylinder wall, so (a) it will allow us to set our squish, and (b) it will form the hard limit of how far the piston can protrude from the cylinder, lest it mash into the head, rapidly, with great and expensive force...

Because the wall meets a sloping face, accurate measurement required some maths and calculation.

First, we touched off points on the upper face, and made that a reference plane.

Next we carefully touched off points on the inner wall of the cylinder, all at the same height. (with the software, if you tell it your're measuring the inside of a circle, and touch three points, it can extrapolate the circle. Touch more points, and you have more accuracy). Once we had the circle, we then had the software expand it into a cylinder, perpendicular to the original top reference plane.

To measure the squish ramp, we told the software we were measuring a cone. By touching off points up, down, and around the ramp, we were able to calculate the ramp. then find (a), where it intersected with our wall cylinder, and (b), how far down from the top reference plane that intersection was.



Abracadabra, the built in squish headroom for the cylinder is 0.9252mm. Lets call it .93.

So as they stand, we're going to make expensive noises with our 1.63 and 1.94 popups.

On to the cylinders.

We measured these with a 90 degree probe, trying to get about 0.8mm into the port to beat the roundoff on the edges.



Because we have the current popup numbers referenced to the top face of the cylinders, we were able to take these off the engines and measure them stand alone.



Results for #1



And Buffy



Mains on #1 are 38.87 39.01 38.64 and 38.78. (Average of 38.83) Exhaust is 27.46. So 130.12 and 185.29 with 27.58 and zero deck, and 132.87/187.51/27.32 with 0.5mm popup.

Mains on mine are 38.65 39.09 38.58 and 39.23. (Average of 38.89) Exhaust is 27.97 So 129.79 and 183.02 with 26.62 at zero deck, and 132.54/185.25/26.36 with 0.5mm popup.

I'm trying to make sense of these, but my head hurts, and I need a beer!
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3731
Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:01 am quote
I long while ago Ginchi & myself were porting AnaKey's motor, & went thru the cases... An application of Knead-it Steel to the affected & 12,000km later it's all sweet!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:39 am quote
SubEtherBASS wrote:
I long while ago Ginchi & myself were porting AnaKey's motor, & went thru the cases... An application of Knead-it Steel to the affected & 12,000km later it's all sweet!
I've brought that one up a few times lately!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:37 am quote
Yep, I agree.


It would be quicker than welding.

It would almost certainly be fine.

It would be easier than welding.

It has no risk of burn through or warping.

I have JB weld in the garage.

It would probably be best.




But
SoCalGuy wrote:
Jig, Tig and Mig are Buffy’s best friends
Hard to argue with that
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:20 am quote
Buffy hasn't been forgotten, but her powerplant has been taking much longer than I anticipated to put together. Everything almost fits, and everything that doesn't quite needs careful thought and precise fettling to make right if she's going to be capable of the rev's she'll need. Some of this has been detailed on Ginch's thread, some has just been too annoying to think about.

And then of course, there's my idiot/rookie mistakes.

Today's task was to put together the clutch cover. Should be simple, but there's aftermarket bits, which precicely almost fit, and I needed to waste hours filing, sanding, twisting, heating, cooling, clamping, swearing and pondering.

Eventually, without breaking too many parts, this simple assembly was together.



Easy. I should have left it there.

Instead, I decided to fit it.



...and dropped a clutch cover bolt (actually a high tensile M6 mushroom head 25mm screw), into the open clutch case. Sod's law dictated that it (of course), immediately rolled through a tiny gap, into the gearbox.



Fair to say I was displeased.



Genius that I am, I gently rolled the case over, and tried to gently shake it back out. Which resulted in a click, a clunk, and then silence. Yep, I'd got it jammed in the gearbox.



A machine screw floating in the gearbox is not ideal. After a short, blue coloured hiatus, more shaking and swearing (if it was a baby, I'd have been arrested), and some general poking around, I remembered I impulse bought an inspection camera at Aldi a while back.

Oil filler bolt out, camera in, a bit of wiggling, and the little bugger came into view. (The sequence has been shortened in the interest of viewer sensibilities).



Half an hours prodding and probing with a bit of bent mig wire, some more rolling of the case, and I'd got it loose of where it had wedged, and worked it up towards the front of the gearbox. Now to get it out.

So I glued a rare earth button magnet to a thin screwdriver and went in on an angle past the clutch



I felt like Jack Swigert trying to capture the LEM in Apollo 13, I really didn't want to have to split my pressure tested cases, so it was a delicate operation done juggling the mag stick, the camera probe, and the screen, but before too long I had "Capture", as the bolt jumped onto the magnet.



From there it was a twisting and turning in and out see saw to gently twist the bolt out of the gearbox, through the slot, and under the clutch. Finally though,

Success



Good tools,



Are their own reward.

Onward and upward.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:50 pm quote
Are you absolutely sure this one didn't come from your proctological examination?

Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3731
Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:05 pm quote
I tape the rare earth magnets onto whatever , in this instance the bent bit of wire
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3598
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:59 pm quote
was there a washer as well?
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1250

Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:23 pm quote
One time at a rally i was at there were a few guys who ended up flipping a P2 upside down and shaking it violently because the clutch key dropped off the crank, and into the transmission. It wasn't a pretty sight.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:02 pm quote
SubEtherBASS wrote:
I tape the rare earth magnets onto whatever , in this instance the bent bit of wire
I guess in an "emergency", you could glue the magnets to the outside of the case so that the bolt doesn't move until you get around to removing it.
whodatschrome wrote:
One time at a rally i was at there were a few guys who ended up flipping a P2 upside down and shaking it violently because the clutch key dropped off the crank, and into the transmission. It wasn't a pretty sight.
Ha ha! You'd try anything wouldn't you though to avoid splitting the cases at a rally?
Enthusiast
79' Vespa P200e
Joined: 24 Apr 2009
Posts: 78
Location: Peachtree City Georgia
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:12 am quote
wow, i think you could have built one from scratch more easily.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:07 am quote
After a long road, I headed out to the garage last night to prepare Buffy's powerplant for it's first fireup.

https://youtu.be/rPxR_KpfeNU


Today I headed back to Mat's factory after a work induced hiatus.

Clamped up the first of the underfloor bracing ready for welding (You cant use too many clamps!)



And made a start on glueing them in



These are a bitch to weld - they're much thinner that the floor, gonna be a vitch to clean up. At least they're outs sight!

Onward and upward.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3598
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:15 pm quote
I'm thinking "wow, I hope that guy never sells this vespa" . Not because it won't be quality, but because there's so much sweat equity in it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:15 pm quote
Sounding good!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5300
Location: Indo
Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:14 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
After a long road, I headed out to the garage last night to prepare Buffy's powerplant for it's first fireup.

These are a bitch to weld - they're much thinner that the floor, gonna be a vitch to clean up. At least they're outs sight!

Onward and upward.
mind if i give a lil tips, put another flat thick (3mm) steel diagonal between the bracings to support ur floor when u have someone sitting in Buffy while on a center stand, i did it on all my bike axcept the smallie and the result all have a storng floor and didnt bent while been sitting except the smallie

i got the pics on the steel underneat my vbb so u git the idea

i wish good luck for the Buffy and cheer

1255509_10203601089451094_3558125812800296874_n.jpg

Molto Verboso
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 1943
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:45 pm quote
Just like everything else about this project, that video was brilliant!
Addicted
2008 GTS 250, 1979 P200E
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 912
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:18 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
Just like everything else about this project, that video was brilliant!
I agree - fantastic! I'm in awe....
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:18 am quote
Time to get back to work and do something I've been putting off - let the horncast into the leg shield. This has the potential to go horribly wrong.

The pressing in the leg shield has to go first,



The plan is to cut the leg shield, but not the spine flange behind it. The aim is to be halfway into the flange to keep the leg shield stable.

Step one, measure up.



Then begin gently cutting. ("Gently" with a 6" cutting disk...)



Be patient, follow the lines



Getting deeper and closer - time for a couple of inspection and access holes



Step one done



Time to re-measure, and make a template.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
LX150, GTS300, BV350, EN650
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 5070
Location: Home of the Alamo
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:10 am quote
Great thread man. Love what you're doing here. Some of you guys have talent (and the tools) that amazes me. And puts me to shame!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:33 pm quote
Looking good! Now just chuck a 50 Special plastic horncast on there and call it done...
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:23 am quote
With the hole cut, I traced then cut a paper template



Then created a centerline



That was transferred to the horncast pressing, and I rough cut it, then filed it back for fit up



and filed



and filed



Which went well, except a slight bodge at the top, and a gaping hole at the base...



That will get interesting later...

Meanwhile, Mat got tacking.



We worked everything to keep the but joints flush as we tacked down the curve of the legshield



and used the clamps to keep the curve smooth



There's a lot of grinding and sanding in my future (again), and I need to fettle the horn piece before I fit it, but the worst is over, and (other than a slight fixable bit at the top) the legshield doesn't look to have warped.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:31 pm quote
Brilliant as always.
Addicted
2008 GTS 250, 1979 P200E
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 912
Location: Florence, OR
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:44 am quote
This is so impressive - I am in awe. I cannot even fathom doing what you're doing. I'm just bumbling through the basics of engine and machine maintenance, let alone rebuilding. You sir, are a wizard! I can't wait to see it fired up and running.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:49 am quote
And with some more puddle welds, the last of the horncast is on



Look who made it home after only 245 days on a welding table



Time for some hard work getting ready for paint.


Also time to order some parts. The VHST 28mm carb ran nicely on the stand, but it will need lots of tuning. Anyone able to lay out a kit of bits I should buy to dial that sucker in? Needles, jets etc? Information is scarce on the net, can anyone help? Jack221, anyone?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1023
Location: London UK
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:31 am quote
Liking the progress. Going to look like a new frame once painted. I doubt there are many people in the world that have done this at this level.

Will you drill the holes for the floor runners, horn etc, before painting? Or even maybe a dry fit of everything?

What are the numbers of all jets/needle in the carb now? Atomiser and needle are the first parts to get near. Get these right and it all falls into place easy (By easy I mean only a few months of fiddling).
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3598
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:54 am quote
it almost seems a shame to paint it at this point
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4388
Location: So Cal
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:05 am quote
From this:



to this:



Hard to believe
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6667
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Dec 29, 2018 12:32 am quote
We got together a couple of weeks before xmas to have a closer look at the fit of the bits prior to paint... namely exhaust and intake. At first we thought that we wouldn't get full travel of the rear shock without hitting the exhaust on the inside top of the LHS 'cowl'. But once we put it all together and applied a handy weight to compress the spring (knew all those pies would be useful eventally) there was not so much to worry about. Still, the carb hole needed extending to give decent clearance to whatever rubber we decide to use in that area.

20181216_155107a.jpg
All her bits exposed

20181216_183235a.jpg

20181216_193141a.jpg

20181216_194821a.jpg
Thar she blows

Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5300
Location: Indo
Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:53 am quote
Who is this.. i though i was the monkey king here
Its outstanding

20181216_183235a_89255.jpg

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 182
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:13 pm quote
I’m more elderly silverback than speedy monkey these days. But I do have mass on my side.
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