bodywork - over my head
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Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:53 pm quote
Hey guys just wanted to show where I'm at . Started sanding down the frame, I'd start on a small spot to feather out and next think I knew I'm joining the bare spots. Am I out of control ???
Should I keep going removing all the painted area or what, PS I'm definately no body guy and have a whole new level of respect for you's that know the ins and outs.

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Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 785
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:29 pm quote
Iíd recommend getting the frame chemically stripped (acid dip then phosphate coat). Comes back look like like my bike - I liked the phosphate look so much I have worked to keep it as is.

This method will remove all paint and rust from the frame (like inside the tunnel and all those seams too) - places sand blasting or by hand can never reach. The phosphate coat acts to stop rust - it just isnít very durable (which is a shame) so just buys you time before painting.

Should be very cheap to get this done - I paid <$200 USD for my frame, cowls x3, glove box, and headset for reference (in NZ tho).
Hooked
1952 Allstate 1955 Allstate 1958 lambretta 1965 Allstate 1968 sprint
Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 476
Location: Central california
Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:31 pm quote
Body work
If it were me as far as youíve gotten already....I would totally strip it. I would have someone strip it. Not that expensive, unless your time means nothing. Just my 2 cents.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:12 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Iíd recommend getting the frame chemically stripped (acid dip then phosphate coat). Comes back look like like my bike - I liked the phosphate look so much I have worked to keep it as is.

This method will remove all paint and rust from the frame (like inside the tunnel and all those seams too) - places sand blasting or by hand can never reach. The phosphate coat acts to stop rust - it just isnít very durable (which is a shame) so just buys you time before painting.

Should be very cheap to get this done - I paid <$200 USD for my frame, cowls x3, glove box, and headset for reference (in NZ tho).
I had looked into the acid dip option back in 2013 and it wasnít available which is why I had gone with the sandblasting.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:19 pm quote
Re: Body work
Sjanuary wrote:
If it were me as far as youíve gotten already....I would totally strip it. I would have someone strip it. Not that expensive, unless your time means nothing. Just my 2 cents.
Ok hereís the thing, if it were a Monday I would drop it off somewhere to get it blasted,but seeing as itís Friday and Iím now off until Wednesday, I have lots of time.
I wish I would have listened when someone suggested getting it stripped as while back, I was looking at it the wrong way back then, I was thinking why strip it when I know the frame is not hiding anything under the paint, duh my bad.
Ok so I will ask what would be the benefit to keep on going with the da sander with the 80 grit paper compared feathering away?
Would the 80 grit be too course on the painted surface to apply primer?
Iíd really like to move forward with some bondo if possible.
Banned
Joined: 04 Jul 2019
Posts: 55

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:10 pm quote
Quote:
Ok hereís the thing, if it were a Monday I would drop it off somewhere to get it blasted,but seeing as itís Friday and Iím now off until Wednesday, I have lots of time.
buy a cheapo stripper from harbor freight and blast it yourself
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:47 pm quote
Crawdad23 wrote:
Quote:
Ok hereís the thing, if it were a Monday I would drop it off somewhere to get it blasted,but seeing as itís Friday and Iím now off until Wednesday, I have lots of time.
buy a cheapo stripper from harbor freight and blast it yourself
Do you think thereís enough left to strip to warrant buying a sandblaster ? That is if thatís what you mean.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5299
Location: So Cal
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:00 pm quote
Thereís no reason to strip the whole bike to bare metal. In places where the paint is in decent shape it can just be scuffed, primered and repainted.

What youíve done so far looks fine. You may want to use a filler primer to get a nice level surface for your basecoat.

Yes, 80 grit is too course to be covered with primer and too course for feathering. Itís for rough shaping. Scratches will show through. I use 240-400 under primer, but read the TDS for whatever primer youíre using. Itíll tell you what grit to use.
Hooked
1952 Allstate 1955 Allstate 1958 lambretta 1965 Allstate 1968 sprint
Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 476
Location: Central california
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:28 pm quote
Body work
If you donít strip it...then you have to make sure that you feather edge the sanding so the silhouettes donít show through. Even if you use a filler primer they can still show through. For me it would be easier to strip it and donít worry about the silhouettes. My thoughts....
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7754
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:15 pm quote
Are you using the same paint that you had put on before? When you ALREADY had it blasted and primed with what I assume is good stuff? It's really up to you and how "perfect" it has to be, and how well you do it this time. If it was mine and all the white still there is nice, I'd do exactly as SoCal Guy says, and look for "hi build" primer as noted, just keep it to the bare metal and mostly off the white. Final fine sand the whole thing, use your tack rag all over, screw up your courage and shoot it, right?

Looks to me like that happy new DA sander you got sure works awfully good.

Last edited by V oodoo on Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:17 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Thereís no reason to strip the whole bike to bare metal. In places where the paint is in decent shape it can just be scuffed, primered and repainted.

What youíve done so far looks fine. You may want to use a filler primer to get a nice level surface for your basecoat.

Yes, 80 grit is too course to be covered with primer and too course for feathering. Itís for rough shaping. Scratches will show through. I use 240-400 under primer, but read the TDS for whatever primer youíre using. Itíll tell you what grit to use.
SoCalGuy thanks for chiming in, I always value your input.
Yes quite a bit of the paint is in very good shape, I'm simply having a hard time with the feathering, there seems to be quite a few very very small paint chips and when I sand them out I end up with larger than desired area and it then only makes scence to open the area right up to metal. I've attached the filler I bought , its suppose to be a very good shop grade 2k primer.

Perhaps that is why I'm haveing a hard time with the feathering because of the 80 grit on the Da Sander. If I goto the 240 first then to 400 can I use the Da Sander or is it better I don't and just use my rubber block sander?

For some reason when I tried some 240 dry sanding on the painted area it felt kind of rubbery like the surface had a protective layer, I realize wet sanding the painted surface to scuff up would be ideal but I don't want to get the bare metal area close to it wet.

Would I be better off scuffing the paint with wet sanding and then doing a 2k primer on the entire frame including the bare metal and good scuffed painted area and then come back and do my body filler work?
Sorry for all the questions.

Edit : I looked up the instructions for the primer... Crap as you can see it says to Metal areas
should be sprayed with etch primer prior to priming. Is this necessary , do I now have to go spend another $100 on etch primer??? I told the paint guy at the Napa place exactly what I was doing and he said this primer is all I need.

SURFACE PREPARATION
NOTE: Be sure to completely remove all rust or oxidation prior to applying primer.
 Solvent clean with a Strong Wax & Grease Remover. Featheredge with P180- P320 grit
sandpaper. Sand the existing areas with P400 grit sandpaper. Large bare Metal areas
should be sprayed with etch primer prior to priming.

 A Strong Wax & Grease Remover and a red scuff pad may be used to remove light
surface oxidation on aluminum. Follow by re-cleaning the aluminum to remove sanding
residue with a Strong Wax & Grease Remover.

primer.jpg

primer 2.jpg

primer 3.jpg

primer 4.jpg



Last edited by Lynnb on Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:36 pm; edited 3 times in total
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:17 pm quote
Re: Body work
Sjanuary wrote:
If you donít strip it...then you have to make sure that you feather edge the sanding so the silhouettes donít show through. Even if you use a filler primer they can still show through. For me it would be easier to strip it and donít worry about the silhouettes. My thoughts....
This was my initial thoughts when I started this topic, if I stripped it completely I wouldn't have to do any feathering and hiding the difference in layers.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:21 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
Are you using the same paint that you had put on before? When you ALREADY had it blasted and primed with what I assume is good stuff? It's really up to you and how "perfect" it has to be, and how well you do it this time. If it was mine and all the white still there is nice, I'd do exactly as SoCal Guy says, and look for "hi build" primer as noted.

Looks to me like that happy new DA sander you got sure works awfully good.
Hey Voodoo , yes it will be a urethane paint for sure and will be a lite blue this time. I want to do a good job the right way . I attached the primer I will be using.
The Da Sander works really well, I think I like using it perhaps too much.

Voodoo I remember you saying something about using a scuff pad for scuffing the paint, which colour was it you use? This may be what I need.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7754
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:37 pm quote
I use a silicon carbide scuff pad to level and smooth my etch primer prior to topcoat, but it is described as "crisp sanding". You will need real sandpaper to cut the tougher topcoat I think.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1397
Location: california
Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:49 pm quote
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:54 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
I use a silicon carbide scuff pad to level and smooth my etch primer prior to topcoat, but it is described as "crisp sanding". You will need real sandpaper to cut the tougher topcoat I think.
Figures, thought there may be an easier solution for scuffing the paint.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2132
Location: London UK
Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:41 pm quote
Looks like you're doing a fine job. I don't do bodywork or paint but keep reading the threads.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5299
Location: So Cal
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:02 am quote
Your paint guy gave you the wrong stuff. That primerís not for bare metal. Itíll work but itís not going to last.

Use an EPOXY primer on the metal and the scuffed paint. Epoxy has excellent corrosion protection and is a great sealer. If Montana is the brand youíre using, see if the shop has this:

https://www.chemspecpaint.com/brands/montana/undercoat/surfacer-sealer/ps3042-epoxy-primer-light-gray-g-q

You can use the other stuff over the epoxy.

As for sanding, I do most of it by hand because there are so many curves and angles on scoots. The thin rubber block sanders are what I prefer.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 785
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:26 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
As for sanding, I do most of it by hand because there are so many curves and angles on scoots. The thin rubber block sanders are what I prefer.
I wet sanded 180-240-320-400-600-800-1000-1200 my entire frame by hand. No block. And it sucked.

What was I thinking...

I can totally see why panel and painting these properly costs so much...
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3963
Location: That bushfire place
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:05 am quote
Sand it, it's therapeutic
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1423
Location: Siam
Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:15 am quote
It's 75% bare metal now. I would strip it down 100%. There's no point in keeping old, unoriginal paint, is there?
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4386
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:55 am quote
Lynnb, Most of us on here have been where you are. After many projects, now when I am going to do a full paint job, I take the bits and have them media blasted and primed. In my area, this runs about $60 for the blasting, maybe another $40 for priming. Works for me.
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4386
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:57 am quote
Notice I said media blasting, not sand blasting. And I use paint stripper on the headsets.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 785
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:16 am quote
Seriously no industrial chemical strippers where you are? Iíd be surprised given there are numerous places that do it here in little old podunk kiwi town. Iíd media blast cases. But chem strip is so good for frames.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 785
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:18 am quote
Tierney wrote:
Notice I said media blasting, not sand blasting. And I use paint stripper on the headsets.
Yeah - the industrial strippers I use hit the headset with paint stripper. All the markings on my headset were under there. Do you have any pics of your bare headsets?
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:26 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Your paint guy gave you the wrong stuff. That primerís not for bare metal. Itíll work but itís not going to last.

Use an EPOXY primer on the metal and the scuffed paint. Epoxy has excellent corrosion protection and is a great sealer. If Montana is the brand youíre using, see if the shop has this:

https://www.chemspecpaint.com/brands/montana/undercoat/surfacer-sealer/ps3042-epoxy-primer-light-gray-g-q

You can use the other stuff over the epoxy.

As for sanding, I do most of it by hand because there are so many curves and angles on scoots. The thin rubber block sanders are what I prefer.
Just checked with the supplier and they can't get and don't carry the ps3042 epoxy primer and I did have them double check if the one I got can be applied over bare metal and all they did was read the can and gave me a " I don't know 100% answer" and suggested I do some research on youtube and google. They did say they carry the aerosol can's that come with the activator in epoxy and or etchant. Man I really hate this shit , so confused.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:27 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
As for sanding, I do most of it by hand because there are so many curves and angles on scoots. The thin rubber block sanders are what I prefer.
I wet sanded 180-240-320-400-600-800-1000-1200 my entire frame by hand. No block. And it sucked.

What was I thinking...

I can totally see why panel and painting these properly costs so much...
OMG that sounds like it was alot of arm work.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:30 am quote
Tierney wrote:
Notice I said media blasting, not sand blasting. And I use paint stripper on the headsets.
Just realized now that there is a difference, learning the lingual.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:33 am quote
nomadinsiam wrote:
It's 75% bare metal now. I would strip it down 100%. There's no point in keeping old, unoriginal paint, is there?
No I suppose not and as SubEtherBASS said it may be therapeutic.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:37 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Tierney wrote:
Notice I said media blasting, not sand blasting. And I use paint stripper on the headsets.
Yeah - the industrial strippers I use hit the headset with paint stripper. All the markings on my headset were under there. Do you have any pics of your bare headsets?
No there is no place here for media blasting , not a lot of stuff like that here, secluded city with the steel mill being the main industry.
When I had the sand blasting done years ago I don't even recall seeing the side cowlings and headset done, I only seen them after they were painted.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5299
Location: So Cal
Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:19 am quote
If you canít get an epoxy primer, then go with self etch. You need one or the other on bare metal.

This guy explains it pretty well.

Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:27 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
If you canít get an epoxy primer, then go with self etch. You need one or the other on bare metal.

This guy explains it pretty well.

Thanks SoCalGuy, they didn't say they couldn't get epoxy primer they said they couldn't get the epoxy primer in the Montana Big Sky that you had suggested.
Can I simply use the Epoxy Primer or self etch in the aerosol cans that the person suggested ? Its a 2 part I think you have to activate it by pushing the bottom of the can upward.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5299
Location: So Cal
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:30 pm quote
Yes, Spray Max 2K epoxy in the activated cans is a good product. It has a nice fan pattern and sprays very nicely. The cans are expensive though ... ~ $20 each here. Youíll need least 4 to cover the scoot.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:37 pm quote
After doing some reading on the data sheets and watching the youtube video I have a question.
If I'm bringing the frame down to bare metal or even leaving it the way it is now with some additional feathering and sanding , data sheet says " Featheredge with P180- P320 grit sandpaper. Sand the existing areas with P400 grit sandpaper. Large bare Metal areas should be sprayed with etch primer prior to priming. "
So following the data sheet feather with 180 - 320 and painted surfaces sand with 400. So with this information, wouldn't it make more sense to do my body filler skim coat on all the open metal surfaces and shape to a near finished state and then simply apply the 2k primer thus eliminating the need for any etch primer or epoxy primer? And then block sand and touch up with body filler again where needed?
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5299
Location: So Cal
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:10 pm quote
Yes, thatís an option. Itís not the standard technique these days, but lots of people still apply filler directly to metal. The downside is that filler is porous so you canít just take your sweet time doing bodywork, you need to get the bodywork done then primer over it. It also means you have to cover all the metal with filler, which you may not want to do. Also, if you apply filler directly to metal, a ding or a crack is going to allow moisture to get to the metal.

If you go that route, use a ďpremiumĒ filler that has zinc or some other anti-corrosion additive. The Evercoat Rage line has a metal additive, I believe.

Last edited by SoCalGuy on Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1423
Location: Siam
Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:29 pm quote
Lynnb wrote:
pheasant plucker wrote:
Tierney wrote:
Notice I said media blasting, not sand blasting. And I use paint stripper on the headsets.
Yeah - the industrial strippers I use hit the headset with paint stripper. All the markings on my headset were under there. Do you have any pics of your bare headsets?
No there is no place here for media blasting , not a lot of stuff like that here, secluded city with the steel mill being the main industry.
When I had the sand blasting done years ago I don't even recall seeing the side cowlings and headset done, I only seen them after they were painted.
The guys here use a propane torch or oxy-acetlelene torch on low flame. I have done this as well, and it works great. Go over the painted surface back and forth until the paint bubbles and blisters off. The old bondo will also separate and fall off. Then go over it with a paint scraper. Finally, wire wheel and sand as necessary. The metal is quite thick, so as long as the heat isn't too intense and the flame isn't focused on one area for a long time, the metal will not warp or deform. The crap just comes right off. No need for toxic gel strippers.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:35 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Yes, thatís an option. Itís not the standard technique these days, but lots of people still apply filler directly to metal. The downside is that filler is porous so you canít just take your sweet time doing bodywork, you need to get the bodywork done then primer over it. It also means you have to cover all the metal with filler, which you may not want to do. Also, if you apply filler directly to metal, a ding or a crack is going to allow moisture to get to the metal.

If you go that route, use a ďpremiumĒ filler that has zinc or some other anti-corrosion additive. The Evercoat Rage line has a metal additive, I believe.
Thanks for clarifying, it was something I was confused about . I just want to learn all my options and learn something new at the same time.
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4386
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:05 pm quote
I also use a heat gun as a stripper as nomad described. It stays need my workbench to help loosen difficult bolts and nuts. With a little PBlaster, of course.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:30 pm quote
Tierney wrote:
I also use a heat gun as a stripper as nomad described. It stays need my workbench to help loosen difficult bolts and nuts. With a little PBlaster, of course.
Nomad must have posted same time as me, didnít see it. I tried the propane torch on the floor before I removed it, worked good. Not sure what Iím going to do at this point, whether Iím going to strip the good paint and do 100% metal to start with or not. The da sander sure makes quick work of stripping , dusty though.
Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1423
Location: Siam
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:35 am quote
I'm not a fan of media blasting. It puts unnecessary indentations in the metal. Sandblasting is the worst because it's far too aggressive. I would use sandblasting on a grid iron bridge or freeway flyover but nothing vehicle related. I think vapor blasting is kind of cool, but even then probably unnecessary. I was looking at a 23/27 carb that had been vapor blasted, and that even had light pitting that looked very suspect. No thanks.
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