Bogging at first 1/4 throttle [SOLVED with new motor]
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:26 am quote
Hello! I am new to the forum
I have a 1966 VBB, restored in USA with an LML 5 port engine.

it bogs at the first 1/4 throttle and has done this since first cranked. After the first 1/4 throttle it really takes off and runs great going down the road. it got a little better after a low speed jet change and a little time, but now after a long ride it has gotten worse.

I found a video on youtube that shows exactly what mine is doing.

So far I have changed the carb base gasket and reed block gaskets. I am about to go and make sure all the case bolts are tight. Outside of that I really don't know other than a crank seal issue? I am rather new to 2 cycles but I have tools and many years of experience using them on 4 cycle.

I am hoping someone will recognize this issue and tell me what it is ! love the forum ! thanks !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47YYNBm6Hog

Last edited by Tradspa on Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4887
Location: So Cal
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:04 pm quote
Welcome to the forum.

Could be something as simple as the mixture needing adjustment. It would help to know what carburetor you have, and what jets are currently in it.
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'07 LX150 (Sold), '17 GTS300, '16 BV350, '15 EN650, '09 FXDF
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:08 pm quote
Welcome Tradspa! Glad you found us.

Visit often. Post oftener.
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74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:15 pm quote
I agree w/ SCG, check this first. Mixture screw adjustment, got a good link?
Ossessionato
I have a few scooters....
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2201
Location: San Antonio, TX
Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:04 pm quote
I put an LML engine in an Allstate restoration. I had that same problem. I was told at the time that the LML engines were built for the market in India and as such want to conserve fuel while at idle. The idle jet that came on the scoot was just under sized. I'm working off of my memory, but I think I put in a 55-160 idle jet. It solved that bog right off of idle. Do a little research and find out what's in there now.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:49 pm quote
Killo wrote:
I put an LML engine in an Allstate restoration. I had that same problem. I was told at the time that the LML engines were built for the market in India and as such want to conserve fuel while at idle. The idle jet that came on the scoot was just under sized. I'm working off of my memory, but I think I put in a 55-160 idle jet. It solved that bog right off of idle. Do a little research and find out what's in there now.
Thanks for the replies. Yes the idle jet was replaced last summer and it ran better

a 40-120 was in it

i bought lots of jets and tried them all, ended up sticking with a 50-120 because it ran the best overall with that one. The mixture screw is currently so far out its about to fall out but going more rich on the idle jet doesnt help this

it was running much better with the 50-120 but the slight bog was still there. now after a long ride on mothers day it has gotten significantly worse, much like it was with the 40-120 in it.


I do have a 55-160 and tried it last year, as I recall I went back to the 50-120 because the 55-160 made things worse

I dont know what main jet or mixer tube is in it. vespa carb tuning is beyond me. I am thinking that all of the jetting and mixer tubing is just plain wrong, but it sure runs great past 1/4 throttle.

I can get all of this information within the next few days.

I am using 90 octane puregas, mixed 2% and i'm basically at sea level (300 ft.)

A little history on this engine, it was being used as a parts motor so I was told. Lots of things were missing on it. the cable adjusters, the air cleaner lid, and a few other small things. I am thinking that the seller knew it was a problem motor and was raping it for parts, then sold it cheap to be rid of it.

edit:
I just went out and looked

Carb: Si20-20D
Main jet: 160
idle jet: 50-120
Mixer tube: BE3
Mix Screw: about to fall out
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:27 pm quote
Are you sure that main jet is 160?. Sounds like the air is 160 (the section on top of the jet) Check the bottom of the jet for the main jet number? Should be around 100...give or take.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:39 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
Are you sure that main jet is 160?. Sounds like the air is 160 (the section on top of the jet) Check the bottom of the jet for the main jet number? Should be around 100...give or take.
thanks

on the very bottom it says 96.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:53 am quote
This morning I tried a brand new Si20-20D carb,
Tried several different idle jets
no change. still bogs at 1/4 throttle
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:05 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
The mixture screw is currently so far out its about to fall out but going more rich on the idle jet doesnt help this
This is the opposite of what you want. Bogging at low throttle indicates a rich condition. Turning the mixture screw out only enrichens it more.

Have you read the SIP tutorial on SI carb tuning in the link Voodoo posted? It explains things very well.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:06 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Tradspa wrote:
The mixture screw is currently so far out its about to fall out but going more rich on the idle jet doesnt help this
This is the opposite of what you want. Bogging at low throttle indicates a rich condition. Turning the mixture screw out only enrichens it more.

Have you read the SIP tutorial on SI carb tuning in the link Voodoo posted? It explains things very well.
I don't see how it can be too rich at the first 1/4 throttle. pulling the choke out
a little helps a great deal with the first 1/4 throttle and always has. To me this would indicate a lean condition.

Yes I followed the directions in the link voodoo posted, i found that last year. That is what led me to the 50-120 that is in it now, up from 40-120 that came in it.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:18 am quote
Perhaps I am using the wrong terminology.

To describe this issue I am using the term 'bogging'. I posted a link to a youtube video in my first post to show what the engine is doing because 'bogging' may not be the correct term.

History

Last year 2017: 40-120 idle jet in carb

Give the engine gas, the first 1/4 throttle and the engine rpm goes down and it cuts off. Pull the choke out a little, BIG HELP

Bought many richer idle jet sizes. tried many, used the guide that voodoo posted above, ended up with a 50-120 but the first 1/4 throttle remains 'choppy', it 'gargles' it 'breaks up' its not smooth revving. Nail the gas WOT, on the stand and it revs up and sounds fine, its just the damn first 1/8-1/4 is crap.

Going down the road and going through the gears as fast as you can you can feel no power after shifting, a stumble. After the first 1/4 throttle it takes off and runs great. while cruising slowly and trying to maintain a slow speed in lets say 2nd or 3rd gear- 20-30 mph the engine breaks up and sputters. Press the brake so that you have to give it more gas to keep going....past 1/4 throttle is smooths out and putters right along beautifully.

Again the video link I posted shows what the engine is doing much better than I can explain it.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:41 am quote
Where is your timing set?
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:29 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Where is your timing set?
I'm embarrassed to say I don't know, I'll check it out.
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Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:31 pm quote
4 things to check
I had a Super that behaved just like that and it ended up being poor compression...new rings sorted it out (

On another scooter I had a weird lurch as soon as I hit the gas hard..sometimes so bad it would throw my body forward......that was a worn brass bush on the clutch.

A minor flat spot in the low revs may be as simple as a one eighth turn IN on the air fuel screw

.....and I aso had a flar spot on smallie that ended up being a loose head (low compression)

soooooo

Tighten head nuts down first..evaluate
Then play with air fuel screw...evaluate
Then pull clutch out and replace the brass bush....they sit a few mm high and are designed to wear down..replace it with new brass bush regardless

..after that I would put new rings in

..then Id do seals


Good luck
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Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
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Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:36 pm quote
..trying another carb and getting exactly the same smacks of an electrical issue....swap out the CDI..........orrrrrr...whats your compression at.....(rings)
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:20 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Where is your timing set?
Hello everyone, its been awhile since I updated. The timing is supposed to be 18 BTDC (the LT mark) and mine is at basically 0, maybe even a tad past TDC. I made a mark with a black sharpie to show where the plug is firing at.

So that's the good news, timing appears to be way off.

The bad news is that when I took the flywheel off to turn the stator plate i found that the end of the crankshaft had mushroomed bcause someone took the flywheel off before and it must have been on so tight that the removal tool smashed the end of the crank. When putting it back on the threads stripped, the nut just spins so the crank may be shot now. I'll have to grind off the flywheel pins , take the flywheel off that way then cut the flywheel hub off but a puller might take it off.

I went down this road on a 61, it was hell but I managed to save the threads on the crank. Since this one is mushroomed anyway I don't think i'll be so lucky this time. We'll see. I really don't want to rebuilt it if I don't have to

The ebay seller i bought this engine from had been taking parts off it, it came to me missing lots of little things like cable adjusters etc..
I think he knew there were problems with it so he was raping it for parts.

Unknown to me that this was basically a parts motor, not a ready to run motor.

It was cheap but all that glitters is not gold.

However, if i do have to rebuild it i now have a chance to put a mazzucchelli crankshaft in, perhaps a 166 or 180 kit, change these crazy high rpm gears and a VLB kick start quadrant so that I can put the correct year curved kick start lever in it.

Thanks for the heads up on the timing,I wasn't think about timing since its CDI but I have learned now that the CDI is just electronic points and doesn't handle timing, at least not like modern bikes do.

I have not worked on anything that needs a timing light in so many years that I don't even have a timing light anymore.

Well i didnt, now I do.

IMG_20180909_174309.jpg

Hooked
1978 MotoVespa 160GT, 2009 LML Star 150 2T (Stella), 1961 Lambretta S2, 1962 Lambretta S3, 1964 Lambretta J100
Joined: 02 May 2009
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Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:59 am quote
If I was you, I'd be heading out to get a timing light. I'd also be finding the correct TDC and ignoring those marks on the flywheel cover.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:59 pm quote
norman wrote:
If I was you, I'd be heading out to get a timing light. I'd also be finding the correct TDC and ignoring those marks on the flywheel cover.
I guess my post was not clear. Yes, I did go buy a timing light, thats how i found where the plug was firing at, denoted by the black sharpie line on the flywheel.

You are also correct that the marks on the flywheel cover are to be ignored, this crankshaft has the keyway machined in the wrong place and I believe whats why I got it so cheap. If it were still usable I would have to find real TDC with my degree wheel, but the end of the crank is wasted. I did manage to get the nut and flywheel off which I am very happy about. I had to cut a flywheel off of a '61 VBB and it was quite an adventure.

Now. Time for a new crank for this engine.

My first question is this, have any of you ever seen anyone do a crank job on a vespa without taking the motor completely out?

I believe I just want to put in a Mazzucchelli crank, malossi seals, a VLB quadrant for the correct curved kick start lever and be done with it.

The bearings only have 200 miles on them, but being from India I suppose those should be changed too.

Thoughts?
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'05 Stella
Joined: 11 Sep 2018
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Location: Evanston, Il.
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:01 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
[quote="norman"
My first question is this, have any of you ever seen anyone do a crank job on a vespa without taking the motor completely out?

I believe I just want to put in a Mazzucchelli crank, malossi seals, a VLB quadrant for the correct curved kick start lever and be done with it.

The bearings only have 200 miles on them, but being from India I suppose those should be changed too.

Thoughts?
Hi,

Thoughts/experience from a Stella newbie: I replaced the crank with the engine in the frame BUT I put it on a very high bike lift, so I could work on eye level. I'd never do that on the floor. Disassembly/ assembly is WAY easier and cleaner with the engine taken out, plus it saves time.
Measure/mark the length of the gear cables, remove two bolts, and that's it.

Yeah definitely replace the crank bearings. Make sure you have the right top end bearing, and the Stella case gasket.

Also, I'd get/borrow a crankshaft puller. You'll also need the "clutch nut thing" (sorry, don't know the correct word).

The Boyesen 605 reed makes the engine run better at lower revs/throttle openings.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Posts: 289
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Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:04 pm quote
ninjah wrote:
Tradspa wrote:
[quote="norman"
My first question is this, have any of you ever seen anyone do a crank job on a vespa without taking the motor completely out?

I believe I just want to put in a Mazzucchelli crank, malossi seals, a VLB quadrant for the correct curved kick start lever and be done with it.

The bearings only have 200 miles on them, but being from India I suppose those should be changed too.

Thoughts?
Hi,

Thoughts/experience from a Stella newbie: I replaced the crank with the engine in the frame BUT I put it on a very high bike lift, so I could work on eye level. I'd never do that on the floor. Disassembly/ assembly is WAY easier and cleaner with the engine taken out, plus it saves time.
Measure/mark the length of the gear cables, remove two bolts, and that's it.

Yeah definitely replace the crank bearings. Make sure you have the right top end bearing, and the Stella case gasket.

Also, I'd get/borrow a crankshaft puller. You'll also need the "clutch nut thing" (sorry, don't know the correct word).

The Boyesen 605 reed makes the engine run better at lower revs/throttle openings.
Thanks. I do have a lift and I do have the clutch nut tool. There is a neat trick on Vespa Help website for pulling the crank in. You use the old flywheel side bearing as a spacer, some flat washers and the clutch nut and pull it in that way.

Where can I get the Boyesen 605 reed? What crank did you use? What bearings did you use?

I'd like to get all of the parts from the same source. Any sources you could provide would be greatly appreciated.



https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/crank.install.lf.vespa.html
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:41 pm quote
Tradspa wrote:
ninjah wrote:
Tradspa wrote:
[quote="norman"
My first question is this, have any of you ever seen anyone do a crank job on a vespa without taking the motor completely out?

I believe I just want to put in a Mazzucchelli crank, malossi seals, a VLB quadrant for the correct curved kick start lever and be done with it.

The bearings only have 200 miles on them, but being from India I suppose those should be changed too.

Thoughts?
Hi,

Thoughts/experience from a Stella newbie: I replaced the crank with the engine in the frame BUT I put it on a very high bike lift, so I could work on eye level. I'd never do that on the floor. Disassembly/ assembly is WAY easier and cleaner with the engine taken out, plus it saves time.
Measure/mark the length of the gear cables, remove two bolts, and that's it.

Yeah definitely replace the crank bearings. Make sure you have the right top end bearing, and the Stella case gasket.

Also, I'd get/borrow a crankshaft puller. You'll also need the "clutch nut thing" (sorry, don't know the correct word).

The Boyesen 605 reed makes the engine run better at lower revs/throttle openings.
Thanks. I do have a lift and I do have the clutch nut tool. There is a neat trick on Vespa Help website for pulling the crank in. You use the old flywheel side bearing as a spacer, some flat washers and the clutch nut and pull it in that way.

Where can I get the Boyesen 605 reed? What crank did you use? What bearings did you use?

I'd like to get all of the parts from the same source. Any sources you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Another thought I am having is how much I hate how low 4th gear is. It hits the rev limiter at 48mph with the headlight on and maybe 51 with the headlight off. I'd like to have some lower RPMs in 4th gear, but i have no idea whatever on what 4th gear to buy or how to change it. A real world 55mph without bouncing on the rev limiter would be wonderful.

Decisions decisions.



https://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/crank.install.lf.vespa.html
Member
'05 Stella
Joined: 11 Sep 2018
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Location: Evanston, Il.
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:50 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
Where can I get the Boyesen 605 reed? What crank did you use? What bearings did you use?
I got the Boyesen reed from Amazon. My crank is a full circle 57mm, similar to the Mazzucchelli. I used european (SKF?) bearings. Most of my parts came from SIP, I liked their web shop more than the domestic ones. But I'm new to the U.S., more experienced forum members will have other suggestions?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/full+circle+crankshaft+mazzu_45070000

You can also go for the 60mm stroke, depending on the kit you want to run it with, the time you want to spend with the dremel, raising or shortening the barrel, all that. As a starting point, find out what engine characteristics you like.
Tradspa wrote:
Another thought I am having is how much I hate how low 4th gear is. It hits the rev limiter at 48mph
Does the Stella have a rev limiter? Did you check what CDI it came with? This could also be cause the ignition timing was way off, or have other reasons.

I'd consider changing the primary gearing. But since you said it's a "parts engine", open it and find out what's in there first. Again, I'm a Stella newbie, let's hear what the experts say.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:02 pm quote
Thanks everyone who replied.

Right now I am waiting on a flywheel key and nut to come and I hope I can get the flywheel onto the crank well enough to set the timing correctly this time and determine if that's really the source of the poor running at the first 1/4 throttle without getting the flywheel stuck on the crank like I did to a VBB once that I ended up having to cut off.

I would hate to spend the money and do all the work replacing the crank only to find it has the same problem when i'm done. The joys of classic vehicle ownership

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'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
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Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:20 pm quote
"I hope I can get the flywheel onto the crank well enough to set the timing correctly".... before you run it, the FW has to be on the crank completely tight or you will mash the key.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:57 pm quote
Moto64 wrote:
"I hope I can get the flywheel onto the crank well enough to set the timing correctly".... before you run it, the FW has to be on the crank completely tight or you will mash the key.
This is going to be a long post so for the TL;DR crowd... The key didnt mash, it got cut clean in half. Two of them. Crank threads are wasted. Done with this motor. Where can I get QUALITY motor?

Now, the long version:

The key didnt mash, it got cut clean in half. Two of them. I have given up on this motor. I now know why the seller had this motor at such a heavily discounted price:

The seller knew the crankshaft was mushroomed on the end from taking the flywheel off using the tool that pushes against the end of the crank, but why the flywheel was removed from a new motor at all is a mystery. The seller removed it for some reason? Or....it was a factory defective motor and he knew it, thats why he was taking parts off it, I assume to sell? (cable adjusters were missing as well as a few other little things).
I assumed the missing parts were why it was discounted and that was a big mistake on my part. I should have known better. Chinese scooter sellers will have one new bike that is just for parts because they need to send parts out or fix customers bikes so frequently. They take parts off a new bike then replace the part they took off when the part they ordered comes in. Sort of a rolling parts box. Anyone besides them who is raping a new motor for parts most likely means there is something wrong with the motor though, its just not a common practice.

Anyway, the seller should have listed this engine as 'for parts/not working' but he didnt. I let it sit over the winter several seasons ago after I bought it so there is nothing that can be done now as far as feedback/return etc.. too much time has gone by.

The crankshaft threads are wasted now which I figured would happen, there is simply no way to check timing on this motor anymore. Its over for this engine.
I could just part it out on Ebay I suppose, or just drop the entire cursed thing in the garbage can. Seriously. Its been a nightmare and i'm ready to be rid of it.

So now my plan is to buy a p200 engine from American scooter center. Well, it WAS my plan, until I discovered they they are out of business. I have no idea where to get a good engine from now.

I really liked the power that this 5-port motor had, but the rev limiter keeping the top speed down to @48 was a real bummer. It needed a taller 4th gear badly. It sure would zip right through the gears quick though. It was fun while it lasted.

So now my options are:

Another 5-port LML motor from India and this time: 1) not a discounted one that is going to be nothing but trouble (hopefully) and 2) one with a starter motor on it so that I can use a battery and my old pistol grip starter trigger to spin the motor over with to check timing in the future instead of trying to spin the motor with a drill by the crank nut.

or

A points 6v 2-port 150cc motor, also from India.

Drawbacks to a 5-port are that it will still have a rev limiter therefore limited to about 48mph and will not be the period correct kick start lever (hate the PX one)

Advantage: 1) quick and fun through the gears! 2) will have a starter motor on it that can be used to spin the motor for future timing checks and to start the engine while working on it while on the stand instead of trying to start it by hand with the kickstart...or lowering it to start it then raising it again. I dont work on my knees.

Drawbacks to the 2 port motor are 1) it will be slower through the gears 2) might still be limited to 48 or maybe not even that fast, 3) having to change the stator to 12v which means messing with crankshaft threads again, 4) more expensive than 5-port. 5) its 8" so I would have to swap the 10" parts over and it might all not fit right, leading to more work.

Advantage: The restoration on this bike turned out so nice that 1) A period correct looking points motor with undercurved kickstart would do it justice and 2) A points motor has been much easier to set timing on....for me.

Drawback to both: made in India.

Rebuilding my present nightmare of a motor is not an option for me, I dont have a case splitter etc.. and I am just done with this motor, its been nothing but frustration. I was "penny wise and pound foolish" trying to save some money by buying a discounted motor that had more wrong with it than just a few external parts that I could see were missing and I should have known there was a reason to be raping it for parts.

I am ready to get another one and just do a swap and be finished. For the few minutes (seconds?) that I did have it running though I made timing marks with a sharpie and had a hard time even seeing them using a timing light. What do you all use to make timing marks with? there has to be something easier to see than sharpie marks, for me they are all but invisible when using a strobe.

Another reason I am not up for attempting to install a new crank in this motor is that I have only done one Vespa points motor previously and while it was a success, this motor just feels cursed. I am not up for doing all that installing a new crank entails only for it to still run like garbage when i'm done. Sometimes its better to just replace something if you can afford to. As I said I don't have the required Vespa tools to do it anyway which may or may not be needed but at the rate i'm going with this motor I will probably end up needing every damn Vespa tool there is to get it done. #CursedMotor.

I really prefer a better quality motor than another LML and also because of this experience I am a little gun shy of LML motors. I have seen some Stellas with thousands of miles on them that were running just wonderfully however and it's my understanding that Stellas have LML motors. I also should have known something was going on with this engine in the first place so maybe this was just a bad judgement call on my part and the next one will be okay....the good lord willing.

So my questions for today are:

1) Where can I get a quality motor like what American Scooter Center was selling that doesn't cost many thousands like the ones from SIP?
And
2) Now that I am 48 y/o my eyesight is really crashing. I use reading glasses all the time now and am having a hard time seeing little things like timing marks. Such is life. What do you all use on electronic motors to make timing marks with besides a damn sharpie?

Sorry for the long winded post, its been several months since an update on #Cursedmotor.

I hope you are all having a good 2019 so far.

Last edited by Tradspa on Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:43 pm quote
Sorry to hear you're still having problems with that motor. Is the scooter on 10 inch rims? Where are you located? That will help with sourcing what you need. You really have better options then getting a motor from India.

I would rebuild the motor with a replacement crank and CDI. If you have experience with 4t motors rebuilding that will not be a problem. You really don't need many specialized tools. Its better to have but you can get away with just having a few. And you really don't need a crank puller for what you have. You can source everything from one shop and probably get away with doing it with the motor still in the scooter. With a lot of picture, the support here would get you past things that may seem difficult.

If you just want to buy, search scoot.net, facebook, and vintage shops that will send you a motor. You may still need to rebuild some things inside but any good shop will set you up with a motor ready to roll. Unless you get one from a respectable shop, it is best to open the motor to see if everything is OK. Especially the ones from India.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:01 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
Sorry to hear you're still having problems with that motor. Is the scooter on 10 inch rims? Where are you located? That will help with sourcing what you need. You really have better options then getting a motor from India.

I would rebuild the motor with a replacement crank and CDI. If you have experience with 4t motors rebuilding that will not be a problem. You really don't need many specialized tools. Its better to have but you can get away with just having a few. And you really don't need a crank puller for what you have. You can source everything from one shop and probably get away with doing it with the motor still in the scooter. With a lot of picture, the support here would get you past things that may seem difficult.

If you just want to buy, search scoot.net, facebook, and vintage shops that will send you a motor. You may still need to rebuild some things inside but any good shop will set you up with a motor ready to roll. Unless you get one from a respectable shop, it is best to open the motor to see if everything is OK. Especially the ones from India.
Yes 10". I am in the southeastern USA.
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GL, PK, PE200, Rusty Bluebadge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
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Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:04 pm quote
Ok. If you're rebuilding go to http://www.scootermercato.com. They're located in a North Atlanta suburb. Get an idea of what you need to replace. They have kits for soft rebuilds or full replacement of serviceable items within the motor. They also have tools and the website is easy to search with diagrams of the similar vespa to your scooter. If needed call Dave before you buy the parts to make sure everything you're getting is right. Place the order, start rebuild, and come back here with questions.

If you want to buy an engine, call Dave at scooter mercato. They rebuilds motors and can rebuild your motor better then lml new. They will even tell you how to ship that motor to them in a box. You haven't mentioned any damage to the cases and should have some good parts in that motor. There's other places that can sell parts and rebuild motors but since you're in the south east, scooter Mercato is a good place to start.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:46 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
They rebuilds motors and can rebuild your motor better then lml new. They will even tell you how to ship that motor to them in a box. You haven't mentioned any damage to the cases and should have some good parts in that motor. There's other places that can sell parts and rebuild motors but since you're in the south east, scooter Mercato is a good place to start.
Thanks!
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:09 pm quote
Email sent to http://www.scootermercato.com/ to inquire about a rebuild. I must say it's a great feeling to have a contact regarding what I hope is good and knowledgeable service!
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:20 pm quote
I cannot tell you all how happy I am to find http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Engine-Rebuilds

What a relief.
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GL, PK, PE200, Rusty Bluebadge
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 701
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:57 am quote
You'll be surprised that scooter Mercato is one of the few places that have a standard rate for motor rebuilds...like a real car mechanic. Matt is very good. The guy can look at a gear and tell you what bike it goes in. The shady so call vespa mechanics in my area can't even attempt to do that but charge you like they are experts. I've dealt with butt holes in my area that charge by the hours worked and really screw you bad. They are lazy or increase the hours to charge you more . They know it don't take long to open a motor and replace with new parts...if you do this for a living. It's a sixty year old technology that has changed very little over the years. But in my area the mechanics here talk to you like it's new rocket science and they are the only hope to get your scooter back on the road. I had a local mechanic here tell me to stay off this forum because it will not help. Now I do all the work I can on my stuff and most of the knowledge came from this forum.

Dave and Matt will take care of you the proper way and have you back on the road.

Good luck!
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2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 1864
Location: North Jersey
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:25 am quote
Why do you blame the seller when you said that you knew he was using it as a parts motor? Seems to me you had higher expectations from the get go for that motor than you should have had?
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:17 pm quote
Vintage1 wrote:
Why do you blame the seller when you said that you knew he was using it as a parts motor? Seems to me you had higher expectations from the get go for that motor than you should have had?
As stated above, yes, I should have known. Full disclosure on the part of the seller would have been nice also.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:40 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
Dave and Matt will take care of you the proper way and have you back on the road.

Good luck!
Just talked to Dave on the phone. Thanks for this contact, I am looking forward to doing business with some real classic Vespa pros. I'll let you know how it goes!
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:49 pm quote
I took a shot and sent an email to the seller of this engine and told him all about the issues, how the crank was damaged when I received it and I didnt know etc thinking that even though its been over a year, maybe he would help me out. Well, he did. Full refund!
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Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:12 pm quote
With that refund you can do a mild upgrade to your engine by adding a bigger head, exhaust and smaller 4th gear. All of it is almost stock, does not require cutting the cases and should not hurt reliability.

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cylinder-Assembly/122826O

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Exhaust/SR-Pipe-150

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Gears/223229

You will definitely tell the difference if Matt added these items. A 24/24 carb upgrade vs. the 20/20 there now would be nice but not needed.
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:11 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
and smaller 4th gear.
Thanks Rowdy. I was thinking a 23/65 primary upgear would probably be the best choice, reduce rpms all across the board to get under the rev limiter in all gears.

Thoughts?
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'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
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Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:08 pm quote
We plan to use a DR 180cc, 24/24 carb and 65t cush gear. Not sure yet if it will make enough power for a 22t clutch gear too even with a T5 4th gear. Waiting to hear back for an opinion on that from Mercato.

I'm trying to gear it as far enough away from the rev limiter to where the rev limiter kicks in at about the same time i get terrified which will probably be around 65 which I plan to do hardly ever.

If all of this sounds completely unrealistic please tell me. My ET4 will hit 70 and its damn scary at that speed, way too light of a bike. I have only done over 60 on it a handful of times. All the roads I ride on are posted 45 so if the '65 can comfortably cruise at 50 like the ET4 does and its not constantly bouncing off the rev limiter i'll be happy.
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