New Pinasco 250cc - pre-order now!
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:39 pm quote
No info at all... just this teaser pic.

Pinasco 250.jpg



Last edited by Ginch on Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:43 pm; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:38 pm quote
I’m already drooling. I’ve done some calculations and having a 72mm bore with a 62mm stroke gets as at 252cc. Let’s wait and see what they’ll announce...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:41 pm quote
Of course the question is what cylinder did they have in mind for this?

Anyway nice to see some decent transfers!!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:53 pm quote
They've moved the cylinder studs! Think it will be a special exhaust, the 150 type will be too small.
If the cylinder has a real exhaust port I'll buy the lot
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:06 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
They've moved the cylinder studs!
Which is interesting... you don't move them unless you know where to move them to. Either they have a motorcycle cylinder in mind or more likely are going to produce their own.
Recently I checked out bore x stroke for a bunch of current - 10y0 2 stroke cylinders from dirt bikes etc etc and a 72mm stroke is very common. So it seems unlikely they would go in that direction.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:56 pm quote
Moving the studs fixes the need for a stud changing packer like we were talking about a while back. If the cylinder is big bore with the 60 stroke and a 3 port exhaust it will make 50bhp. I'd have to have one.
Hooked
1966 Sprint 150 & px200 and a shed full o shit
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
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Location: New Zealand
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:39 pm quote
Re: New Pinasco case for 250cc ??
Hi all,

I've been snooping around the interwebs a bit lately. A lot of head scratching involved. I like my bike stock for the reliability etc. when touring....but I'd like to go a bit faster.

Currently available from Pinasco is this combo:

Big bore kit 69mm piston: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+pinasco+960_81115500

and non reed version: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+pinasco+960+rr_81115400

62mm Crank: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+crankshaft+pinasco+_45028200

So maybe gasket spacers required but this will get you around 232cc using existing casings. Prolly want a fancy clutch too.

It might just be an extra 18cc using their own 62mm crank and same / similar kit as above with 72mm piston to achieve the "magic" Vespa 250 (a 64 crank and 69 piston gives approx 240cc I believe) but then why the need for a new set of actual casings when they already provide 2 versions? This might be something in a different direction perhaps?


A 64mm crank (King) is used in these big Quattrini 260cc engines ready to go off the shelf, using the existing Pinasco casings: https://www.vespmoto.de/shop-english/engines/px-200-engine-260-244/

The options these days are amazing and I'm stunned the market is such to support ever increasing development and production. Back in the day we were JB welding Rally 200 pistons into shitty old $500 Super Sports...and that was amazing too!

Anyway, bring it all on....I'm buying a lotto ticket today.

Cheers
Hooked
1966 Sprint 150 & px200 and a shed full o shit
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 119
Location: New Zealand
Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:32 pm quote
Re: New Pinasco case for 250cc ??
More info just in from the news desk: https://scooterlab.uk/new-250cc-pinasco-vespa-engine-casings-news/
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:00 pm quote
Re: New Pinasco case for 250cc ??
PC73 wrote:
Cheers for finding that! Not giving too much away are they but here's the whole thing -
SLUK wrote:
Traditional Vespa owners will be excited by the news of a new 250cc crankcase for large frame Vespas. Official Pinasco supplier, VE (UK) told us “Pinasco have worked extensively on reinforcing critical areas of the casing, worked on the porting to offer the best possible performance, and made other refinements to give the highest quality of finish to the product”.

A specific crank and cylinder kit are also being developed especially for the new crankcasings. They’re not available just yet and no prices have been set but we’ll bring more details as soon as we have them.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:41 pm quote
The issue with every kit on the P200 stud pattern is that the exhaust port can't be wide enough with the studs where they are. The port has to go tall to get the area. Which would go great if we had 6 gears.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:38 pm quote
Some recent pictures from Pinasco on FB -

"Pinasco 251cc engine assembly with rotary valve intake and crankshaft Factory High Performance."

The clutch spline on the crank is very interesting.

Pinasco 250 1.jpg

Pinasco 250 2.jpg

Pinasco 250 5 - clutch spline.jpg

Pinasco 250 4.jpg

Pinasco 250 3.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:40 pm quote
And a couple from Eicma (last year I think). Notice the additional exhaust ports Jack?

Pinasco 250 Eicma 1.jpg

Pinasco 250 exhaust port maybe.jpg

Pinasco 250 12.jpg



Last edited by Ginch on Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:44 pm quote
And some more from the GSF -

Pinasco 250 11 GSF.jpeg
This is where that special piston with no gudgeon pin hole would be useful

Pinasco 250 10 GSF.jpeg

Pinasco 250 9 GSF.jpeg

Pinasco 250 8 GSF.jpeg

Pinasco 250 7GSF.jpeg

Pinasco 250 6 GSF.jpeg
Not that much room left for a stator!

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1558
Location: London UK
Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:14 pm quote
Are these for sale yet? going to need a new everything to go with these cases.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:46 pm quote
Oh man. I find an irrational urge to buy this and build one once I can finish off my current projects. Harley power with half the weight. I might need counseling.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:53 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Are these for sale yet?
Congratulations, you are the 100,000th person to ask! It will be interesting to see how much they sell for. In theory they should be around the same price as the other ones... which makes it fairly reasonable. But the special cylinder, crank and clutch to go with it? Hmmm.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:45 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/B195-S_ooXS/?igshid=1e0cvk2v5dlf2
Nice find.

Clipboard02.jpg

Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:57 pm quote
Looks like small block exhaust choices only with this one..
Kind of smart really cause there’s heaps to choose from.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:33 pm quote
It's made it into the catalogue!

No mention so far of the splined clutch, hopefully the centre will be compatible with a Superstrong.

Pinasco 250 13 catalogue.jpg

Pinasco 250 14 catalogue.jpg

Pinasco 250 15 catalogue.jpg

Pinasco 250 16 catalogue.jpg

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1131
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:57 pm quote
Any price yet? I've also been wondering something which this just made me think of.. and also might have answered for myself from these photos.

Master vs Slave crankcases... I have been wondering this for a while, but I think this catalog just answered it. Master is rotary valve cases, slave is reed valve cases. Terminology works because the case acts as the valve on master, and the case is separate from the valve on the slave... so it is the slave to the reed valve box.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:22 pm quote
Correct.

The slave case is good value, if you add up the price of the reed and manifold etc on top of the price of the rotary case.
jimscoot wrote:
Looks like small block exhaust choices only with this one..
Kind of smart really cause there’s heaps to choose from.
I guess the location of of the exhaust port is the same as the 150. Which is the natural place to put it if you look at all the motorcycle cylinders - ie at 90 degrees to the crankshaft. But the outlet is likely to be a fair bit bigger, so you won't be able to just bung one on there.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:50 pm quote
Just saw this from a partner of Pinasco... they are registering for pre-orders! Looks like great stuff from the video. Can't find it on youtube to put here so you'll need to view it on facebook - https://www.facebook.com/ChiemgauTecProduction/videos/539987496747849/
Quote:
+++BREAKING NEWS+++

Dear Vespa friends,

In any case, the following news is worth your attention:

- 'next level' engine components from home pinasco
- packed power from 250 (! ) CCM
- ´plug & play´
- proven "Long-distance performance" and durability in vtr24 Zuera 2019 1. Place in category large frame. 24 hours to spain duration.

This is first of all the essential information about the latest product development of the birthday anniversary from Italy-50 years of pinasco 1969-2019.

We from chiemgau tec production c.t.p. as a long-term cooperation partner of pinasco, present a first insight into these high-light components a few days before the official sale start.

Have fun at our "un boxing video".

Over the next few weeks, we will be working in our philosophy to bring a brilliant engine concept based on these components.

L E G a l and with appropriate tüv registration.

We will complement our previous engine concepts Hill Rs 190 and race Rs 190 by the latest generation Evo Rs 250.

Get Surprised & stay tuned!!!

Your team of c.t.p.

+++BREAKING NEWS+++

If interested: Pre-orders please send to the following email address einkauf@chiemgautecproduction.de


Pinasco 250 video screen.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:47 am quote
Look how thin those dividers in the transfers are!

Have a look at the amount of meat next to the transfer... this piston is going to be 73mm or within 0.1. Currently if you do a 177 then you run out of thickness in that area as the flywheel passes very close. makes me think they are using a long rod, which would raise that area up and away from the flywheel. Bit like the 232/244 Quattrinis.
Actually looking again I think they must simply have changed the flywheel design to be thinner at the edge.



Pinasco 250 video screen 2.jpg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:26 am quote
Interesting how high they have the holes in the front of the piston - for feeding the front transfer port. Side holes on piston allow larger and longer feed of side transfers in relation.
Assuming they do that to promote swirl?

Can't imagine how a superstring would work on that splined crank tho.
Hooked
P200E
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:03 am quote
Haven’t seen a price put on it yet, anyone seen a hint of the cost?
Member
Motovespa P200e
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Hooked
P200E
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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Location: The Town that dreaded Sundown.
Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:01 pm quote
Whoa! That really is, thought it would be much more. In the grand scheme of things, making a P200 perform that well and much like a more modern bike, $2000 is a great investment. Could see this in the future of my cheap P2 with total cost being well below anything I could go buy brand new.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:25 pm quote
That does seem pretty reasonable compared to what I expected as well... still needs the rest - gearbox, driveshaft, seals and bearings. But it's not totally unobtainable like the 306.
charlieman22 wrote:
Interesting how high they have the holes in the front of the piston - for feeding the front transfer port. Side holes on piston allow larger and longer feed of side transfers in relation.
Assuming they do that to promote swirl?
"Front transfer" is called a boost port (for some reason). The rest of the piston is very standard current 2 stroke. With full-sized transfer ports, it doesn't need the open piston design to make up for area - like the Vespa performance types we are used to seeing I think.
charlieman22 wrote:
Can't imagine how a superstring would work on that splined crank tho.
I'm with you there Charlieman! In fact the whole concept of superstring theory is one I haven't come to terms with yet. Probably has something to do with atoms and shit.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:34 pm quote
Also available at LTH (with 30 day lead time by the looks) seems to inlude case and cylinder only I think -

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/PINASCO-RACING-KIT-VESPA-LARGE-SLAVE-251CC-26033903-27082008_1
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1826

Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:05 pm quote
I wonder what the smallest carb will work with that cylinder. I'm just curious from a fuel economy standpoint. Will it be getting TS1 fuel mileage?...or can it get close to 50mpgs with a "small" 25mil Dellorto? Or is a 30mil carb the bare minimum for this kit?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:02 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I wonder what the smallest carb will work with that cylinder. I'm just curious from a fuel economy standpoint. Will it be getting TS1 fuel mileage?...or can it get close to 50mpgs with a "small" 25mil Dellorto? Or is a 30mil carb the bare minimum for this kit?
The engineering team at Pinasco has worked all night on your question, and here's their answer
Pinasco facebook page wrote:
After years of research and development Pinasco has created the first Plug & Play kit to increase the displacement of its Vespa large frame up to 251cc. Realized in 2 specific configurations "Master" Rotary Valve and "Slave" Lamellar, the kit includes all the accessories for the correct assembly of the engine casing, 251cc thermal unit, splined crankshaft, specific splined clutch and soon the ignition Flytech Tuning and the dedicated Classic Touring muffler.

The performance is of the highest level, the reed valve version with Dellorto PHBH 30 carburettor and Touring Classic muffler exceeds 30 hp at the wheel but with a fluid and aggressive delivery.



Hooked
1966 Sprint 150 & px200 and a shed full o shit
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 119
Location: New Zealand
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:11 pm quote
Thanks for posting.

Anyone have any idea if you can keep the autolube and elestart?

Cheers,
PC
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:26 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
I’m already drooling. I’ve done some calculations and having a 72mm bore with a 62mm stroke gets as at 252cc. Let’s wait and see what they’ll announce...
LTH says it's a 73mm bore. That makes it -

60mm stroke = 251.12cc
62mm stroke = 259.49cc
64mm stroke = 267.86cc

If it was a Scomadi, that would make it a 350!
PC73 wrote:
Thanks for posting.

Anyone have any idea if you can keep the autolube and elestart?

Cheers,
PC
No idea what they have in mind, but they are not showing a hole to mount the electric start at the moment. Also if I'm right about a different flywheel to avoid the wider transfers then probably no... I stand to be corrected on that though! You can see with this Pinasco flytech flywheel that it may not fit, I think the starter ring runs within the lip of the flywheel area casting.

Not sure about autolube, if their current batch of cases have it then can't see why this wouldn't - except it's possible it would need different gearing to supply a greater amount of oil? Just guessing now.

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1826

Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:23 pm quote
The cases are definitely exiting news (and inexpensive for what you get), but I still feel it’s a shame that a (reliable) close ratio 5 speed transmission hasn’t been developed to fit any of the aftermarket cases.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:39 pm quote
True! I recall I think Rob Hodge said he'd installed a couple and they were ok? In this case (see what I did there?) it's much less necessary as this should make plenty of torque. But certainly would be useful in a smaller, peaky motor. I often thought that if the cases were spaced apart a little it might become easier, but of course that means a change of crank and driveshaft... some of these GSF guys should do it. They all seem to work in engineering and production!

Recently a friend said to me that he thought the reason we rode these was to hark back to a simpler time without all the technology. I said I must have missed that memo.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1826

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:19 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
True! I recall I think Rob Hodge said he'd installed a couple and they were ok? In this case (see what I did there?) it's much less necessary as this should make plenty of torque. But certainly would be useful in a smaller, peaky motor. I often thought that if the cases were spaced apart a little it might become easier, but of course that means a change of crank and driveshaft... some of these GSF guys should do it. They all seem to work in engineering and production!

Recently a friend said to me that he thought the reason we rode these was to hark back to a simpler time without all the technology. I said I must have missed that memo.
I had a friend who installed one of those 5 speed kits on his 208 kit. Apparently it only last a couple ride before parts on it broke (i don't remember which part of it). An EFL transmission was installed soon after.

I'm thinking the same thing about the whole torque thing...is a 5 speed really needed on torquey engine?..probably not? I just keep thinking about all the Lambrettas with the new 5 speed kits. Lots of those engines are quite torquey, but the owners are still springing for the 5 speed kits anyhow. I do have a DRT close ratio transmission in my T5, so i understand the benefit of it. And the 5 speed Lammy kits give a little bit of an overdrive as well. I would think if fancy case manufactures' (such as the Pinasco) spend the time to make their own proprietary crankshaft and cases, they could figure out how to build a case that would fit that special extra gear inside. Maybe a collaboration with DRT or another gear company to make it happen?

I haven't had the opportunity to ride any 5 speed yet, but I am in mid build on a reed valved Mugello 225 with a 5 speed. I'm just waiting for some particular anodized Casa Performance parts that are currently out of stock.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1826

Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:21 pm quote
That Smallframe 5 speed is kinda tempting. In the small print, it says that once installed that the engine can be kicked over while the clutch lever is pulled in!...perfect for gymkhana courses at rallies!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:28 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
That Smallframe 5 speed is kinda tempting. In the small print, it says that once installed that the engine can be kicked over while the clutch lever is pulled in!...perfect for gymkhana courses at rallies!
I can't imagine how that works or why it would help at gymkhanas? Just slipping the clutch is all you need right?

I didn't actually read the description before but I'm impressed that they've kept the gear width. A lot of moolah though, clearly.
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