New Pinasco 250cc - pre-order now!
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Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:13 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
That Smallframe 5 speed is kinda tempting. In the small print, it says that once installed that the engine can be kicked over while the clutch lever is pulled in!...perfect for gymkhana courses at rallies!
I can't imagine how that works or why it would help at gymkhanas? Just slipping the clutch is all you need right?
I’ve seen lots of people stall out their scooters at gymkhanas while in gear, and it’s difficult to shift the scooter into neutral, let go of the clutch, kick it over (while still moving with your feet not touching the ground), shift back into gear once it’s started, then hit the next obstacle. Same thing if you stall (or crash) at the racetrack. It costs valuable time to have to shift into neutral just to start up the Scooter. I’m looking at it from a competitive standpoint. Definitely not needed for standard riding whatsoever.
Hooked
Jet 200, P200E (x2), T5
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 344
Location: Paris, France & L.A., Cal, USA
Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:19 am quote
Just keep the elestart - problem solved!

About the very interesting developments in cylinder size and matching crankcases, I couldn't help thinking back at all the issues I and others had with the "plug & play" 225 kits, and with their master and slave crankcases (ill-positioned and oversized bearing and shaft openings which made them unusable). The whole concept of a 250cc engine for largeframes is great, but means nothing if the engineering and quality control aspects are as sloppy as they have been in the recent past. Furthermore, the idea that R&D may have been rushed in order to meet the anniversary deadline isn't particularly reassuring. I would LOVE to hit the pre-order button, but being one of the acting beta-testers doesn't appeal to me; not in that price range in any case...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:49 pm quote
Frank N. Stein wrote:
About the very interesting developments in cylinder size and matching crankcases, I couldn't help thinking back at all the issues I and others had with the "plug & play" 225 kits, and with their master and slave crankcases (ill-positioned and oversized bearing and shaft openings which made them unusable). The whole concept of a 250cc engine for largeframes is great, but means nothing if the engineering and quality control aspects are as sloppy as they have been in the recent past. Furthermore, the idea that R&D may have been rushed in order to meet the anniversary deadline isn't particularly reassuring. I would LOVE to hit the pre-order button, but being one of the acting beta-testers doesn't appeal to me; not in that price range in any case...
It's an excellent point... it's ususally better to wait while everyone else does the testing, breaking etc and they come out with Version 7 or whatever. You want to believe it'll be great, but...
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 689
Location: california
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:04 pm quote
Quote:
"Front transfer" is called a boost port (for some reason). The rest of the piston is very standard current 2 stroke. With full-sized transfer ports, it doesn't need the open piston design to make up for area - like the Vespa performance types we are used to seeing I think.
About that boost port. Looks like they have swapped how it is timed.
On the modern kits, the piston is indented on sides near pin, to create more volume for the transfer ports as you note - but the booster port is positioned so that it feeds the cylinder volume at the same time as the (side) transfers do. See pics below.
On the new Pinasco, the booster port doesn't feed the cylinder until the transfer ports have completely opened - making the front feed delayed.

Curious what you guys think they are trying to achieve with that change and if it has any application to our lower CC set ups. surely this has been tested by all the cyl. kit folks previously. Wonder if it would have any application to our smaller blocked motors (inc. P200) when kitted.

Screen Shot 2019-09-28 at 11.44.01 AM.png
GS - top of booster port aligns with top of transfer ports

Screen Shot 2019-09-28 at 11.42.01 AM.png
BMG - same as GS though transfer ports are higher with indentation around piston pin. Booster port is still aligned so it feeds cylinder volume simultaneously like older GS

Screen Shot 2019-09-29 at 7.31.23 PM.png
New Pinasco. The booster port is delayed - feeds cylinder volume right at the end of the stroke near BDC. Note booster is now ABOVE transfer port top edge

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:33 pm quote
Nice theory but where the boost port windows open in the piston is not very important. They only line up with the cylinder. The business happens when they are uncovered by the piston crown, which direction(s) they point in and how much volume they flow are what influences the powerband.

I think with this 250 that they have changed too much. To run one it needs one Pinasco quality version of everything. Even big ticket items like exhaust, flywheel and clutch don't fit from stock motors. The list of original engine parts that fit is probably quite short. Though fully tuned it has potential. Could be 50bhp easy but going to come at a price. 64mm cranks don't like so much rpm and that conrod is not 110mm either. Apart from being used for beta testing, if people don't buy these engines in volume the unique spares (crank) might end up being the biggest issue.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:13 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
and that conrod is not 110mm either...
I did look at that and wonder... I thought it looked longer but wasn't sure. How long do you reckon?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:58 am quote
Looks like the rod is 130mm - Jack and I guessed right.

Here's some more detailed info from the GSF from a couple of weeks ago. If you want a really good translation, try DeepL Translator, it works even for more technical subjects.
Quote:
Here is an own Topic for the 2019 - 250 ccm cylinder from Pinasco:

Delivery in combination with special Pinasco engine housing (diaphragm and DS variant), special (toothed) Pinasco crankshaft and Pinasco Kulu (similar closed concept as BFA)

The 250 ccm Pinasco case will be available as DS and diaphragm (diaphragm inlet over both halves) (about 100-150 € difference).

Stud spacing for cylinder: 64x68 mm

T5 ignition / base plate necessary

Toothed clutch seat on the crankshaft (Bull Clutch / S&S principle)

Has in the first tests at the 24h race + 8h training at the VTR 24 / in Zuera 2019 without

failure made the first place (details to the setup currently unknown)

Technical data: bore 73mm, stroke 60mm

Tax hours:

Overflow/outlet/side outlets: 126°/360-188°=172°/ 168 °

Diffuser width main diffuser: 68%.

Piston skirt length: 65mm, compression height piston:
25.5mm, 16mm piston pin

Crankshaft data: connecting rod length: 130mm.

Width of crankpin: 47mm, cheek width of DS shaft: 21mm.

Inlet size rotary slide inlet in block 40 x17 mm

Performance data: (30-45 PS+ unprocessed depending on exhaust and intake variant /

carburetor size - specification d. Importers)

Delivery to retailers: mid-October 2019

Price:

Part number - VE10815: Master (DS variant) £2125 inc vat (kit of crankshaft, clutch, housing, cylinder)

Part number - VE10816: Slave (diaphragm) £2220 inc vat (kit consisting of crankshaft, clutch, housing, cylinder)

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

https://www.germanscooterforum.de/topic/370845-pinasco-rs-evo-250-ccm-2019-wer-hat-ihn-was-kann-er/
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:44 pm quote
Only the T5 stator can be fitted due to the restriction on space with those huge transfers. For people not familiar with T5 details (that includes me!) here's a pic of the T5 stator vs a "normal" largeframe type -



Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:47 am quote
https://youtu.be/6gjB8YUSn04

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:56 am quote
Are there variable timing T5 ignition kits available now? I think it would just about be pointless to have static timing on these cases. I have a Vespatronic on my T5, but i had to take it into a machine shop to do some masssaging to it to get it to fit (luckily the machinist was a scooter guy). I had to get the stator plate turned down, and then had to cut the taper deeper into the flywheel so that it would slide down further into the crank's taper (what a pain in the butt that was!).
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:10 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Are there variable timing T5 ignition kits available now?
I think - from what I read on the GSF - is that the Pinasco Flytech will be available to go with it, just not quite there yet. So hopefully not a big deal to get something to fit properly. For whatever reason the T5 stators are available but twice the price of PX ones.
The taper is apparently also the same as the T5.

Another thing that was mentioned is that Pinasco have bought the design of their "Bull" clutch from S&S, so that ought to be good as I think it's pretty well proven, and available with HondaNasco plates...
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:48 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Are there variable timing T5 ignition kits available now?
I think - from what I read on the GSF - is that the Pinasco Flytech will be available to go with it, just not quite there yet. So hopefully not a big deal to get something to fit properly. For whatever reason the T5 stators are available but twice the price of PX ones.
The taper is apparently also the same as the T5.

Another thing that was mentioned is that Pinasco have bought the design of their "Bull" clutch from S&S, so that ought to be good as I think it's pretty well proven, and available with HondaNasco plates...
The tapers are the same from the PX and T5. I bought a PX Varitronic kit long ago, then decided to fit it to my T5. Once the backing plate on the stator was turned down to the same size diameter at the T5, I had to also get the stator cone turned down as well so that it would slide further down on the crank. The coil pickups wouldn’t line up if I didn’t. If I remember correctly, it was close to about 1/8” to 3/16” that had to be removed from inside of the tapered come.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1129
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am quote
https://youtu.be/0enqXKXGWNk

I have no business even considering this yet, at least until I can get my Stella rebuilt and maybe a few more engines tuned under my belt, but this thing sounds so freaking good. Need it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:18 pm quote
https://scooterlab.uk/super-t5-pinasco-251-engine-kit-world-first-test-feature/?fbclid=IwAR0PE9jXdE4xoxFRiJNjiwHj9IaUCNy8m4RO-5xsDrH4EutqipDHKIoXlVE

SLUK review (and video as Swiss put up), they don't say whether this particular one is a rotary or reed valve. But 30hp out of the box would be very nice.

Listing at SIP (says not available until 28/10/2019) for the Slave (reed) version -

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tuning+kit+pinasco+slave+_78249000
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1619
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:26 pm quote
Michael, on the video it's running a PHBH. If you look closely, after he starts it, he reaches down to close the choke...
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1129
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:50 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
https://scooterlab.uk/super-t5-pinasco-251-engine-kit-world-first-test-feature/?fbclid=IwAR0PE9jXdE4xoxFRiJNjiwHj9IaUCNy8m4RO-5xsDrH4EutqipDHKIoXlVE

SLUK review (and video as Swiss put up), they don't say whether this particular one is a rotary or reed valve. But 30hp out of the box would be very nice.

Listing at SIP (says not available until 28/10/2019) for the Slave (reed) version -

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tuning+kit+pinasco+slave+_78249000
Instead of dissuading me, you're only encouraging me more with that article! Now if I can only scrounge up 3k USD and a donor frame!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:01 pm quote
So would there be any benefit whatsoever to buying the rotory over the reed version?

It also looks like there is a T5 variable timing kit that will fit this engine. They are saying that a stock T5 stator and flywheel will also fit, but i have no idea why one would go that route with a tuned engine.

This is a little tempting for me. I have a low mile '05 PX 150 (2200 miles) that i could swap it into. The PX could donate it's whole transmission. I got a spare stock T5 stator and flywheel (much prefer a variable instead though) and a 30 mil dellorto too, but i don't want to be the guinea pig to do a long term test.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:04 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Instead of dissuading me, you're only encouraging me more with that article! Now if I can only scrounge up 3k USD and a donor frame!
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/mcy/d/vespa-sprint-clone-bajaj/7002828713.html


friend of mine trying to part with this, too many back fees to be usable in California, it's ideal for an out of state buyer, he has title
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:43 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Michael, on the video it's running a PHBH. If you look closely, after he starts it, he reaches down to close the choke...
Ah! I didn't realise that's what he was doing. Never seen that before.
swiss1939 wrote:
Instead of dissuading me...
Boy, did you come to the wrong place!
whodatschrome wrote:
So would there be any benefit whatsoever to buying the rotory over the reed version?
I mentioned the reed/rotary because on the GSF topic they have a few dynos, and they are not getting 30hp yet. This is with exhausts adapted to suit, and with the rotary case with 28 SI.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1129
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:28 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
Instead of dissuading me, you're only encouraging me more with that article! Now if I can only scrounge up 3k USD and a donor frame!
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/mcy/d/vespa-sprint-clone-bajaj/7002828713.html


friend of mine trying to part with this, too many back fees to be usable in California, it's ideal for an out of state buyer, he has title
Shipping cross country is not something I think is affordable for something that size. I would take them up on that if I were closer! Some day I will get more serious about this pinasco engine and start looking for a donor.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:29 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
Instead of dissuading me, you're only encouraging me more with that article! Now if I can only scrounge up 3k USD and a donor frame!
https://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/mcy/d/vespa-sprint-clone-bajaj/7002828713.html


friend of mine trying to part with this, too many back fees to be usable in California, it's ideal for an out of state buyer, he has title
wait a second John...you weren't the "friend" the seller was talking about who was in the prison for the past 4 years were you?...right?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:52 pm quote
Interesting... they are using a T5 cylinder cowl. The 250 has a 60mm stroke vs 54 (I think) for the T5, a 130mm rod vs 105 (I think), so that means it's at least 28mm longer. No wonder they need to use this plate to bridge the gap! Pic is from the GSF, don't know if Pinasco have made a purpose-built cowl?

Hmm. Having trouble uploading the photo for some reason?

Clipboard01.jpg



Last edited by Ginch on Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3990
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:00 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
wait a second John...you weren't the "friend" the seller was talking about who was in the prison for the past 4 years were you?...right?
ha not me but the seller is a good guy, no idea who the former prisoner is!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:00 am quote
https://youtu.be/J05mef7kVCk

Not exactly sure what this setup is yet - other than reed - but he's using one of these pipes. Wish they showed the rpm, it doesn't sound like it's trying very hard!

Pinasco 250 27 sml.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:19 am quote
I want to see a tuned one already. Seems like this 251 in bolted together form is a little dull. The reed version on a 39mm carb, one of those pipe desgin expansions and some port timing changes would easily be 50bhp. I wonder what would break first? the bank?
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1216
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:26 am quote
Ok, so not the same power potential, but this does make a Malossi V-One build look like really good value, given that suitable cranks, exhausts and clutches are readily available from multiple different sources.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:48 pm quote
Yes it's not quite the knockout I imagined, however this is literally about the 5th dyno this guy has done with this new gear, and I think he's saying (translation) that it's basically bolted together and dyno'd.

Also Jack there is a Pipe Design pipe just being finished at the moment and will be ready for testing shortly.
Quote:
- Everything just plugged in (delivery state)

- Pinch edge untouched (not like Undi, reduced)

- Control angle (from home rather leisurely) was unfortunately not allowed to access ......

- carburettor 28er POLINI PWK

- long primary gearbox BGM

Steering angle: 125 ° / 173 ° - VA 24 ° (68%) with original 0.2 mm base gasket

Greetings from Augsburg

BABA'S

If it never works out to be all that powerful (for our expectations) then I'm sure there will be offerings from people like Egig, who already makes a 250 to suit the M200 (Quattrini smallframe motor) which he is saying puts out about 50hp in touring form, and 55 in race configuration.
http://www.fabbriracing.com/store/gruppo-termico-egig-performance-250cc-edizione-limitata.html
Hooked
GS160
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 268
Location: Åland
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:43 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
Ok, so not the same power potential, but this does make a Malossi V-One build look like really good value, given that suitable cranks, exhausts and clutches are readily available from multiple different sources.
We also have the Quattrini M232 and M244. Don't remember what they give plug'n'play but lots of potential.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:21 pm quote
LTH are offering a complete built motor for 4990 euro. What is interesting is the gearbox they chose!
Quote:
Price example of a complete engine built by us.

This example uses only new parts, we can also use your used or buy in if you like.

We do the following labour:

Assembly of engine
Ignition setup
Carb Setup

The following items are inluded:

Engine kit Pinasco 251cc
Exhaust LTH Box
Ignition SIP Vape T5
Gearbox LML
Carb Pinasco VRX 28
Everything else to complete the engine.

It does not include the installation which we can also offer.
The engine is made for racing purpose so we cannot give warranty.
Nevertheless we use 20 years of knowledge and experience in tuning and racing.
So we do them like we would do for our own bikes...

We can also do an individual offer to your choice of parts if they match with our philosophy and reliability.

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Example-engine-30PS-Pinasco-251ccm-Vespa-PX-T5-Sprint-Rally-VNA-VBC
As a comparison Vespmoto are offering a fully built Quattrini 260 with BGM Superstrong and other nice stuff, but no carb included, for 4490 euro.
https://www.vespmoto.de/shop-english/engines/engine-260/

A company here in Oz is also offering a complete motor for AUD$7900 - 2 grand over their Pinasco 225 fully built engine. Equates to about 4900 euro.
http://modsorrockers-com.3dcartstores.com/Pinasco-250cc-Vespa-engine-in-stock_p_70.html
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:53 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
LTH are offering a complete built motor for 4990 euro. What is interesting is the gearbox they chose!
Quote:
Price example of a complete engine built by us.

This example uses only new parts, we can also use your used or buy in if you like.

We do the following labour:

Assembly of engine
Ignition setup
Carb Setup

The following items are inluded:

Engine kit Pinasco 251cc
Exhaust LTH Box
Ignition SIP Vape T5
Gearbox LML
Carb Pinasco VRX 28
Everything else to complete the engine.

It does not include the installation which we can also offer.
The engine is made for racing purpose so we cannot give warranty.
Nevertheless we use 20 years of knowledge and experience in tuning and racing.
So we do them like we would do for our own bikes...

We can also do an individual offer to your choice of parts if they match with our philosophy and reliability.

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Example-engine-30PS-Pinasco-251ccm-Vespa-PX-T5-Sprint-Rally-VNA-VBC
As a comparison Vespmoto are offering a fully built Quattrini 260 with BGM Superstrong and other nice stuff, but no carb included, for 4490 euro.
https://www.vespmoto.de/shop-english/engines/engine-260/

A company here in Oz is also offering a complete motor for AUD$7900 - 2 grand over their Pinasco 225 fully built engine. Equates to about 4900 euro.
http://modsorrockers-com.3dcartstores.com/Pinasco-250cc-Vespa-engine-in-stock_p_70.html
LML?!!! Seriously, if i'm spending that much money, it had better come with a full DRT transmission. I can't help but think that for 5k Euros you could get a better engine (that fits in that "other" brand of Italian made scooter) WITH a Cyclone 5 speed.

Ok, my rant is over...for now
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7101
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:27 pm quote
Subetherbass had a new LML motor and the gearbox was fantastic. But as to the how long it would last with 30ish horsepower is another question!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 260
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:49 am quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_8xE-o21E8

Now with watercooled heads...

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