BGM 177 or Pinasco Magny Cours 177 ?
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VBC VLB
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Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:31 pm quote
Hello guys,

This question been in my mind for long time...did search around the web and couldnt get the info i want

Which cylinder is suitable for long distance touring ?

I've heard that few forumers over here complain that BGM 177 sleeve goes off...is that common ?

Another question is crankshaft...should i go for Mazzuchelli or BGM ? 57mm or 60mm stroke is more suitable for long distance touring ?

Hope someone could help me in this...thanks and much appreciated
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Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:46 pm quote
The BGM stuff is great in concept and design but they have had a lot of manufacturing issues. I wouldn’t personally gamble buying from them.
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Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:12 pm quote
I'm not sure what you mean by "sleeve goes off"? I've had the BGM 177 for a while and it's been good although I haven't done that many k's on it.

Somebody here tried the Magny Cours and was a bit underwhelmed by it... can't recall who. But I do know that Swa45 has set his BGM up for touring and is pretty pleased with the result.

Supposedly the tolerances are not that great on the BGM cranks (look at the Mista Freakmoped videos) but don't have any direct experience yet - I bought a full circle for the smallframe but haven't ran it yet. But all the Mazzuchelli's I've bought have been good.

A 60mm crank doesn't automatically create a touring tune, but it does give you more leeway to do so by adjusting head or base packers and adjusting port timings.
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Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:17 pm quote
This kit on a 60mm crank is my new favorite. Pinasco RB 177.

https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Cylinder-kit-177cc-Pinasco-RB-Racing-Booster-for-57mm-stroke-with-3-exhaust-ports-Vespa-PX125-PX150
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:33 pm quote
My BGM 177 was one of the ones that suffered from delamination. I thrashed it hard for over a year, usually neighborhood riding, then pushed it past the point of good judgement temps-wise on the highway, so you can't totally blame BGM for that.

I liked it enough to order another, though, and it's doing just fine so far, albeit with a little richer jetting than before.
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:38 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
My BGM 177 was one of the ones that suffered from delamination. I thrashed it hard for over a year, usually neighborhood riding, then pushed it past the point of good judgement temps-wise on the highway, so you can't totally blame BGM for that.

I liked it enough to order another, though, and it's doing just fine so far, albeit with a little richer jetting than before.
It may not be your fault. The BGM stuff has had a lot of problems on the Lambretta side... bad pistons, cranks, exhausts that fall apart. I have friends who use the stuff and others who won’t. It’s also all over the interwebs if you look it up.
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Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:57 pm quote
Nah, I'll own that one. I pushed it at least close to, if not past, the point of good judgement. Whether or not it's reasonable to expect a cylinder, even an aluminum one, to hold together at over 400f is a matter of some debate.
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Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:51 am quote
Hi there. I have used the BGM 177 kits on two PX150 motors. The first kit was one of the first batch from Scooter Center Koln. It did get some weird lines on the bore and it did seize when I pushed it hard. That could have been my bad with timing or jetting. With a new piston, it has been running well with a racy setup (side draught carb, expansion chamber, Worb5 crank)

The second kit is the v2 with the Meteor piston (graphite coating). It has been fantastic as a touring kit (SI 24 carb, Big Box pipe, mild sports crank), and has been thrashed around, WOT for long distances, and two-up with luggage.

The second BGM kit has just found it's way onto my latest build, a '76 VBC motor with a longstroke (60mm) crank, Big Box Touring, and SI 24. When I removed it from the PX motor (replaced with a DR177 'cos I'm selling the scoot), the piston, rings and bore were immaculate, despite the work that it's done.

I would say the kits are great, but most likely the earlier ones have tarnished the reputation. I'm looking forward to how it feels as a 187cc (stroked).

[EDIT] To accommodate the longer stroke, I have used the 0.4mm base gasket, the 0.5mm copper head gasket, and a 1.5mm head packer. This is to gain low end grunt and a broad 4th gear range for touring and fast motorway riding. With a 57mm stroke, I always used just the 0.4mm base and 0.5mm head gaskets. Both setups give a squish of 1.0mm.
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Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:30 pm quote
PureDrivenSnow wrote:
The BGM stuff is great in concept and design but they have had a lot of manufacturing issues. I wouldn’t personally gamble buying from them.
Thats what i concern...lol
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Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:37 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by "sleeve goes off"? I've had the BGM 177 for a while and it's been good although I haven't done that many k's on it.

Somebody here tried the Magny Cours and was a bit underwhelmed by it... can't recall who. But I do know that Swa45 has set his BGM up for touring and is pretty pleased with the result.

Supposedly the tolerances are not that great on the BGM cranks (look at the Mista Freakmoped videos) but don't have any direct experience yet - I bought a full circle for the smallframe but haven't ran it yet. But all the Mazzuchelli's I've bought have been good.

A 60mm crank doesn't automatically create a touring tune, but it does give you more leeway to do so by adjusting head or base packers and adjusting port timings.
the cylinder sleeve came off issue...quite common issue over here possible in our asia country the engine temp is higher due to hot weather ? and bgm seems always have manufacturing issue....no doubt they are keep improving, the bgm suspensions are superb ~ going to try the new sip suspension later..
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Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:45 pm quote
sounds great !
anyway what is the different between Pinasco MC 177 and RB 177 ?
RB is same as the 'vespone' ?
chandlerman wrote:
My BGM 177 was one of the ones that suffered from delamination. I thrashed it hard for over a year, usually neighborhood riding, then pushed it past the point of good judgement temps-wise on the highway, so you can't totally blame BGM for that.

I liked it enough to order another, though, and it's doing just fine so far, albeit with a little richer jetting than before.
thank you for the info, i'll take that as consideration =)
PureDrivenSnow wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
My BGM 177 was one of the ones that suffered from delamination. I thrashed it hard for over a year, usually neighborhood riding, then pushed it past the point of good judgement temps-wise on the highway, so you can't totally blame BGM for that.

I liked it enough to order another, though, and it's doing just fine so far, albeit with a little richer jetting than before.
It may not be your fault. The BGM stuff has had a lot of problems on the Lambretta side... bad pistons, cranks, exhausts that fall apart. I have friends who use the stuff and others who won’t. It’s also all over the interwebs if you look it up.
yea you're right on that...BGM seems like still very fresh in engine parts
but their suspensions are excellent !
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Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:55 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
Hi there. I have used the BGM 177 kits on two PX150 motors. The first kit was one of the first batch from Scooter Center Koln. It did get some weird lines on the bore and it did seize when I pushed it hard. That could have been my bad with timing or jetting. With a new piston, it has been running well with a racy setup (side draught carb, expansion chamber, Worb5 crank)

The second kit is the v2 with the Meteor piston (graphite coating). It has been fantastic as a touring kit (SI 24 carb, Big Box pipe, mild sports crank), and has been thrashed around, WOT for long distances, and two-up with luggage.

The second BGM kit has just found it's way onto my latest build, a '76 VBC motor with a longstroke (60mm) crank, Big Box Touring, and SI 24. When I removed it from the PX motor (replaced with a DR177 'cos I'm selling the scoot), the piston, rings and bore were immaculate, despite the work that it's done.

I would say the kits are great, but most likely the earlier ones have tarnished the reputation. I'm looking forward to how it feels as a 187cc (stroked).

[EDIT] To accommodate the longer stroke, I have used the 0.4mm base gasket, the 0.5mm copper head gasket, and a 1.5mm head packer. This is to gain low end grunt and a broad 4th gear range for touring and fast motorway riding. With a 57mm stroke, I always used just the 0.4mm base and 0.5mm head gaskets. Both setups give a squish of 1.0mm.
maybe you're right, the v1 has tarnished the reputation
will consider on the v2 or maybe v3 in the future for my next project
thank you so much for the informantion i will take note on that build for the long stroke

worb5 crankshaft is SERIE PRO ?
im considering using the seriepro 60mm flowed crankshaft now, what do you think ? or go for pinasco ?
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Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:01 pm quote
thank you so much guys for all the helpful replies
this makes me learned alot and solve my problems

the conclusion i've came out with trying the new Pinasco MC 190cc together with SeriePro flowed crankshaft 60mm or Pinasco Long stroke 60mm
Any advice or suggestion on that ?

These are the 2

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+flowed+crankshaft+_46003000

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+crankshaft+pinasco+_46006000

And what about this ? i personally like heavier crankshaft too

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+crankshaft+pinasco+_46007000

Thank you
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Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:24 pm quote
You sure about the MC 190. They are not that fast. The RB (or RX) has way better porting.
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Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:01 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
You sure about the MC 190. They are not that fast. The RB (or RX) has way better porting.
Regarding porting... Quattrini m1x got the best porting isit true?
If compare to bgm 177 and mc 190 which 1 have better porting you think? I've seen from the photo and videos on web it seems like very small porting for the bgm 177

If RB is really faster I might reconsider on my decision already.
..hehe....
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Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:44 am quote
The one major advantage that the small block PX has over the 200, is that the studs are positioned to allow 3 exhaust ports. These little ports make all the difference. The Quattrini kits tend to make good tourers, which mean torquey but doesn't always mean so fast.
I think the Vespone RX on a 60mm crank with 3 exhaust ports could be set up to do the best of both (@ginch, the bridged version is halfway there but still bridged). Buying something with one exhaust port is missing a trick. Saying that though they are all not so bad these days. And easy to port if you get bored.
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Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:24 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
The one major advantage that the small block PX has over the 200, is that the studs are positioned to allow 3 exhaust ports. These little ports make all the difference. The Quattrini kits tend to make good tourers, which mean torquey but doesn't always mean so fast.
I think the Vespone RX on a 60mm crank with 3 exhaust ports could be set up to do the best of both (@ginch, the bridged version is halfway there but still bridged). Buying something with one exhaust port is missing a trick. Saying that though they are all not so bad these days. And easy to port if you get bored.
Thanks Jack !
Seems like you've hit what i need...
i'll go for the Vespone RX 190 then...

Which crankshaft you think is more matching to the RX ?
No idea which valve timing is good....and isit necessary to go some heavier crankshaft for long distance touring ?

Flowed Crankshaft SeriePro 60mm with valve timing: 138°
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+flowed+crankshaft+_46003000

or

Crankshaft Pinasco 60mm with valve timing: 123°
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+crankshaft+pinasco+_46006000

Thanks in advance =D
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Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:59 pm quote
Seems like I didn't notice your reply. Must have been a busy day.

One downside of the small block is the small intake pad, preventing it from being opened out so much. You need the crank with the longest duration.
The crank weight is not as important as that of the flywheel. For turing something like 1.9kg is perfect.
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Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:51 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
The one major advantage that the small block PX has over the 200, is that the studs are positioned to allow 3 exhaust ports. These little ports make all the difference. The Quattrini kits tend to make good tourers, which mean torquey but doesn't always mean so fast.
I think the Vespone RX on a 60mm crank with 3 exhaust ports could be set up to do the best of both (@ginch, the bridged version is halfway there but still bridged). Buying something with one exhaust port is missing a trick. Saying that though they are all not so bad these days. And easy to port if you get bored.
Sorry Jack been away for some time and late reply too
After doing some homework, i have some questions hope you dont mind im asking

for long distance touring at my country the road are mainly flat road speedway which is hundred or over of kilometer
and some basic town ride setting (which is not totally torqueless and hard to town ride)

now the consideration :
57mm or 60mm which is more suitable for my needs ? if running on 60mm the torque will be higher and rpm lower am i right ?
currently my VLB engine running on VBB gearing with 4th gear changed to 44T and clutch 22T
i just bought a PX200 gearset so i can play with it if necessary, the primary gear 22/65

To be honest most of the peoples over here bought Quattrini with 57mm stroke, i think there are less than 5 or 10 person among the country using Pinasco RB/RX as the price are quite closed to Quattrini, so most of them go for Quattrini and not going to take the risk to give a try to Pinasco RB/RX
thats how sad the Vespa scene over here

So i dont mind give a try for Pinasco RB 57mm or RX 60mm if it has way better porting/performance than Quattrini M1X
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Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:27 pm quote
RotaryDC wrote:
now the consideration :
57mm or 60mm which is more suitable for my needs ? if running on 60mm the torque will be higher and rpm lower am i right ?
60mm actually gives higher torque and higher rpm. The 60mm crank can be put in both the RB and the RX but will take some advanced experience to set up properly as a 60mm RB. the RX is made to be a 60mm so just bolt on and away you go.
The 60mm Pinasco RX is the kit for your needs. You will be faster in every way over the Quattrini.
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Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:10 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
RotaryDC wrote:
now the consideration :
57mm or 60mm which is more suitable for my needs ? if running on 60mm the torque will be higher and rpm lower am i right ?
60mm actually gives higher torque and higher rpm. The 60mm crank can be put in both the RB and the RX but will take some advanced experience to set up properly as a 60mm RB. the RX is made to be a 60mm so just bolt on and away you go.
The 60mm Pinasco RX is the kit for your needs. You will be faster in every way over the Quattrini.
Thanks for reply Jack!
This is what I studied from the web regarding stroking, that's why I thought up stroking reduced RPM and top end power but very torquey engine
Below is copy paste from web :

A longer-stroke engine will deliver its maximum power within a low rev range and be more flexible. Cruisers fall into this category usually and provide a more leisurely ride with the "muscle" at the lower end of the power curve, extending across a broad range. Less gear-shifting is required and top end revs are quite low, say 5-6,000/min. They have greater flywheel/rotating mass and more stored inertia as a result.

Short-stroke engines have to be worked harder to deliver the power and this is available normally within a narrow rev range, so close-ratio 'boxes are needed to keep the engine on the boil, as in sports bikes. Rotating mass is less and peak power is generally achieved only at very high revs. However this same lower rotating mass enables these high revs to be reached.As a result there is also less engine braking available.
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Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:16 am quote
The BGM kit with a 60mm stroke (187cc) gets you to 123 degrees transfer timing (173 ED), and that's without packing the base. You'll get really good power, but at a much lower cost than Quattrini. The only possible downside is the exhaust port area and duration, which you may want bigger for a peakier setup. However, for mile munching touring power, 123 TD / 173 ED / 25 BD is an excellent spec.
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Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:00 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
The BGM kit with a 60mm stroke (187cc) gets you to 123 degrees transfer timing (173 ED), and that's without packing the base. You'll get really good power, but at a much lower cost than Quattrini. The only possible downside is the exhaust port area and duration, which you may want bigger for a peakier setup. However, for mile munching touring power, 123 TD / 173 ED / 25 BD is an excellent spec.
Hi swa45,
Previously you mention that you have experienced the BGM177 with 57mm and 60mm build
Any review on whas their characteristic for 57mm and 60mm ?
Thanks
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Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:59 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
The BGM kit with a 60mm stroke (187cc) gets you to 123 degrees transfer timing (173 ED), and that's without packing the base. You'll get really good power, but at a much lower cost than Quattrini. The only possible downside is the exhaust port area and duration, which you may want bigger for a peakier setup. However, for mile munching touring power, 123 TD / 173 ED / 25 BD is an excellent spec.
I can't speak to how the BGM does with a 57mm crank, but I run it with BGM with a 60mm bell crank & 110mm conn rod on my LML. It gives me about 125 deg of transfer timing, 172 exhaust with a 5mm spacer, VForce4 reeds and a PWK 34.

It's amazingly torqe-y. Hard to keep the front wheel down taking off in first, have to lean over the bars shifting hard into second, too. I measured it at 23 hp a while back with the GSF Dyno app, and while I blew it up and had to rebuild since then, I think it's better now than it was then.

Max RPM's are really too much, with overrun, it'll rev past 10,000. Peak power is 7,000 RPM's.

I rode it yesterday at the Slaughterhouse rally here in town and other than running a little warm for the mild riding, which I put down to just having put the BGM back on the bike and not having the carb fully set up yet, it was rock solid. I thrashed it through traffic pretty hard on my way home and it was great for squirting through traffic and racing off the line at lights.

I also can't speak to the Magny Cours, but I'll solidly endorse the BGM as a solid piece of kit.
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Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:12 pm quote
It depends on what you want to achieve. I found the BGM with 57mm crank (PX engine) to be a great long distance setup, even with two people on the scooter. My VBC engine with the BGM and 60mm crank is quite a new build, and timing and jetting are still to be finalised, but it feels very strong. It has very high compression at the moment, so kick starting is a pain.

Some people don't like to use the long stroke crank in a 125/150 case, due to the 105mm con rod, so the 57mm is the most obvious crank to use. I used a Jasil 57mm crank, which has worked well for me. I don't think the brand matters, unless you are building a high-end motor.
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Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:37 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
swa45 wrote:
The BGM kit with a 60mm stroke (187cc) gets you to 123 degrees transfer timing (173 ED), and that's without packing the base. You'll get really good power, but at a much lower cost than Quattrini. The only possible downside is the exhaust port area and duration, which you may want bigger for a peakier setup. However, for mile munching touring power, 123 TD / 173 ED / 25 BD is an excellent spec.
I can't speak to how the BGM does with a 57mm crank, but I run it with BGM with a 60mm bell crank & 110mm conn rod on my LML. It gives me about 125 deg of transfer timing, 172 exhaust with a 5mm spacer, VForce4 reeds and a PWK 34.

It's amazingly torqe-y. Hard to keep the front wheel down taking off in first, have to lean over the bars shifting hard into second, too. I measured it at 23 hp a while back with the GSF Dyno app, and while I blew it up and had to rebuild since then, I think it's better now than it was then.

Max RPM's are really too much, with overrun, it'll rev past 10,000. Peak power is 7,000 RPM's.

I rode it yesterday at the Slaughterhouse rally here in town and other than running a little warm for the mild riding, which I put down to just having put the BGM back on the bike and not having the carb fully set up yet, it was rock solid. I thrashed it through traffic pretty hard on my way home and it was great for squirting through traffic and racing off the line at lights.

I also can't speak to the Magny Cours, but I'll solidly endorse the BGM as a solid piece of kit.
Thanks for the review chandlerman
seems like 60mm generate alot torque for the motor

Magny Cours is out...now to consider RB/RX, VMC or the latest Malossi MHR ?
These 2 seems have way more better porting ?
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Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:49 am quote
I think the real question at this point is if you want a broad power band or a narrower power band, but with potentially higher peak HP. Personally, I prefer the former.

I read a comment somewhere from someone that the Malossi 177 is basically the 166, but more so.

I'd say go check around for people's dyno's of the two and decide which curve looks better to you. With that in mind, here's a GSF dyno I did of my BGM. The blue curve was second gear, the red curve was 3rd gear on the same road. It's choppy there at the end because I was going way too fast for the road and then had to stop for a traffic light.

2018-06-11-dynos.png

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Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:20 pm quote
Don't leave the VMC out of this equation... I have read someone who measured the timings at around 120/175 so should make a good touring cylinder. Plus it's a little less expensive than the BGM.

VMC 177.jpg

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Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:43 am quote
magny cours only if there is the old piston
dont use the new piston
they crack, no matter if
162, 177 or 215/225 cc

there are better options out there anyways
checkout the malossi sport

fmp review 2come soon
just ordered one
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