Sheared bolt - next expert help
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Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:19 pm quote
This isn't another sheared bolt thread. I do know about extractors.

I was taking off my swing arm to replace flat rear tire. I've done this many times before. When I got to the bolt that's circled in the below picture, it sheared off clean.

Ugh. Bought a screw extractor. Drilled into the bolt fine, started screwing the extractor in, and it just stops screwing in. The instructions with this extractor indicate to use adjustable pliers to turn it. Obviously there is limited leverage to be had with adjustable pliers

Long story short, the SCREW EXTRACTOR SHEARED OFF IN THE SHEARED OFF BOLT.

I am close to panicking. I've never had to deal with this before. None of my for metal drill bits can even make a dent in the piece of extractor stuck in the bolt stuck in the engine.

What are my options - what is the piece of the engine that the bolt is stuck inside - can I replace that? It appears to be what the water pump sits in?

Ugh - trying not to freak out. I appreciate the help in advance.

image1.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX 150 (memories)
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:27 pm quote
Can the swing arm be pulled off? It doesn't look like there is a bolt head there. If the swing arm is off, would you have better access to the bolt and maybe get Vice-Grip pliers on it. Sometimes a nut can be welded on a broken bolt and then it can be turned out with a wrench.
Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:30 pm quote
NightWing wrote:
Can the swing arm be pulled off? It doesn't look like there is a bolt head there. If the swing arm is off, would you have better access to the bolt and maybe get Vice-Grip pliers on it. Sometimes a nut can be welded on a broken bolt and then it can be turned out with a wrench.
The swing arm is off. The bolt sheared against the engine, not against the swing arm. So there is nothing to grab or weld to. Itís conpletey flat against the engine.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:36 pm quote
I would apply penetrating oil like Liquid Wrench or PB Blaster. Heat the area with a heat gun. Then tap lightly on the extractor with a punch. Not hard, just enough to get some vibration and hopefully allow the penetrating oil to seep in deeper. Again lightly, with a small chisel see if you can work the extractor or the bolt loose. Applying more heat as you go may help. Good luck!
Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:50 pm quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
I would apply penetrating oil like Liquid Wrench or PB Blaster. Heat the area with a heat gun. Then tap lightly on the extractor with a punch. Not hard, just enough to get some vibration and hopefully allow the penetrating oil to seep in deeper. Again lightly, with a small chisel see if you can work the extractor or the bolt loose. Applying more heat as you go may help. Good luck!
Hey thanks for the advice. But you lost me on the chisel part. How would I use the chisel to loosen the bolt exactly? Thanks!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm quote
Can you take a pic of the area with the swing arm removed?
Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:58 pm quote
NightWing wrote:
Can you take a pic of the area with the swing arm removed?
Yes - Iíll take a bunch when I get home a little later
MV Santa
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:59 pm quote
I've never had to do it but I heard you can use a solid carbide drill bit to drill out a broken tap or extractor. Good luck.
Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:11 pm quote
vintage red matthew wrote:
I've never had to do it but I heard you can use a solid carbide drill bit to drill out a broken tap or extractor. Good luck.
Thanks for the tip. Iíll try this.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:11 pm quote
With the punch, heat, and chisel I'm talking about microscopic movements at first. If you can first get some penetrating oil as deep as possible into the threads or under the remains of the extractor you might work things loose enough that they'll come apart. Try using a chisel or punch to rotate the bolt (counterclockwise) to unscrew it. It will take time and patience.

I've had success using a cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool to cut slots in bolts so I could turn them with a screwdriver. You'd have to judge whether that would work in your situation.

And that's about as far as I'm comfortable with DIY work before I'd take it to a good machine shop or mechanic.

Again, good luck!
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:35 pm quote
JKJ-FZ6 wrote:
With the punch, heat, and chisel I'm talking about microscopic movements at first. If you can first get some penetrating oil as deep as possible into the threads or under the remains of the extractor you might work things loose enough that they'll come apart. Try using a chisel or punch to rotate the bolt (counterclockwise) to unscrew it. It will take time and patience.

I've had success using a cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool to cut slots in bolts so I could turn them with a screwdriver. You'd have to judge whether that would work in your situation.

And that's about as far as I'm comfortable with DIY work before I'd take it to a good machine shop or mechanic.

Again, good luck!
Before you put oil on it, see if you can epoxy a smaller bolt onto it with J-B Weld.


Best
Miguel
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:47 pm quote
Mig welder & patience.
Build up the bolt with a mig welder.
Create a 'column' of weld you can put a nut on and then weld it on.
Welding does the service of breaking lose the threads due to thermal expansion differences.
I have done this a dozen times with exhaust manifold studs and a couple of times with the bolt you are trying to remove.
Not a big deal.
Grease those bolts going forward.

My $0.02

R
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:47 pm quote
Miguel wrote:
Before you put oil on it, see if you can epoxy a smaller bolt onto it with J-B Weld.


Best
Miguel
I'm afraid if it's tight enough to break a screw extractor, the JB Weld won't hold either.
Ossessionato
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:00 pm quote
glasseye wrote:
Mig welder & patience.
Build up the bolt with a mig welder.
Create a 'column' of weld you can put a nut on and then weld it on.
Welding does the service of breaking lose the threads due to thermal expansion differences.
I have done this a dozen times with exhaust manifold studs and a couple of times with the bolt you are trying to remove.
Not a big deal.
Grease those bolts going forward.

My $0.02

R
Glasseye, Nice to see you post. It's been a long time I think. Cheers
Miguel
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:08 pm quote
[quote="JKJ-FZ6"]
Miguel wrote:
Before you put oil on it, see if you can epoxy a smaller bolt onto it with J-B Weld.


Best
Miguel
I'm afraid if it's tight enough to break a screw extractor, the JB Weld won't hold either.[/quote

You're probably right but screw extractors are very brittle and its especially easy to break one when inserting, especially small ones I can't remember. I don't recall EVER successfully using one.

Pictures will be interesting. It would appear that you can take the other bolts off and the swing arm will come off. At that point, you can use vice grips to unscrew it.

This happened to me a couple months ago. I was fortunate enough to be able to vice grip it out.

I replaced the screws with stainless steel screws and used anti sieze so they will come out easily in the future. We had a long discussion on anti-sieze in response to a question I posed on when to use anti-sieze. In the end, I was convinced to use anti-seize.

Best
Miguel
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:28 pm quote
Dremel cutting disk. Grind a slot to fit a impact screwdriver. The disk will cut the hardened extractor. Don't forget to use penetrating oil after you cut the slot.
Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:37 pm quote
Pictures

It looks like it sticks out slightly but itís conpletey flush.

Iím behind the dremel but I donít know how I would make a cut on a bolt this small without scoring the motor

D6087E18-6851-49E5-A6ED-4737D90D692E.jpeg

330FADFD-B953-4ECD-9FB6-D1F53FFB3301.jpeg

4FEB76CB-A6CC-4AAD-9767-5427EC36953D.jpeg

1C31A04B-363C-4E3F-9F86-0A056AAE3604.jpeg

Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:48 pm quote
Hoo boy, things sure start to get messy when the EZ-Out snaps off. Iím with Miguel: these are notoriously brittle, and have never even once worked for me.

It looks like youíre now having to reach into that hole and there is no guarantee that even if a Dremel cuts you anything usable for an air tool, that the air tool will actually work on the jury-rigged, bi-metal slot that you created through arthroscopic surgery.

My advice is to take it to a shop now and save yourself a lot of drama. And yes, put a smidge of anti-seize onto those other bolts before you go to make sure you arenít pulling back to that shop again with another messed-up bolt and an even more sheepish look on your face.

A good shop will have a set of ďhollow-coreĒ cutters, the likes of which you can search for here:

https://www.mcmaster.com/drill-bits

Theyíre pretty expensive, but you too can own a set, and perhaps fashion an all-important tubular guide so a wobbling cutter does not grind out the threads of the hole. But, seriously, by the time youíre into all that just bring it to a shop and move on.
Hooked
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:02 pm quote
tenders wrote:
Hoo boy, things sure start to get messy when the EZ-Out snaps off. Iím with Miguel: these are notoriously brittle, and have never even once worked for me.

It looks like youíre now having to reach into that hole and there is no guarantee that even if a Dremel cuts you anything usable for an air tool, that the air tool will actually work on the jury-rigged, bi-metal slot that you created through arthroscopic surgery.

My advice is to take it to a shop now and save yourself a lot of drama. And yes, put a smidge of anti-seize onto those other bolts before you go to make sure you arenít pulling back to that shop again with another messed-up bolt and an even more sheepish look on your face.

A good shop will have a set of ďhollow-coreĒ cutters, the likes of which you can search for here:

https://www.mcmaster.com/drill-bits

Theyíre pretty expensive, but you too can own a set, and perhaps fashion an all-important tubular guide so a wobbling cutter does not grind out the threads of the hole. But, seriously, by the time youíre into all that just bring it to a shop and move on.
So this is good advice as is the previous advice to try the dremel route. I will try anti seize, dremel a cut, and impact screwdriver tomorrow. If that doesnít work ... I may try to drill it out with a carbide bit and install a heil cool

Or bring it to the shop which requires a tow at this point.

And great ide to our anti seize on everything else to avoid this in the future.

Can I assume that a Vespa shop will know how to deal with this?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:09 pm quote
flyingpertyhigh wrote:
Can I assume that a Vespa shop will know how to deal with this?
NOPE. but a machine shop would.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:21 pm quote
E-Z outs are not for stuck/rusted broken bolts. They should only be used if you over tighten and shear off the head of a free moving bolt.
Moderaptor
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:28 pm quote
zombies-nyc wrote:
E-Z outs are not for stuck/rusted broken bolts. They should only be used if you over tighten and shear off the head of a free moving bolt.
I beg to differ.

If you make the hole for the EZ-out as large as possible without damaging the original threads then they tend to work very well. I've now done it twice on that very same bolt - once was on Lostboater's scoot on its side in a hotel parking lot on CB 2012. Always use left-handed drill bits to make the holes - often these will heat up the remains of the bolt enough to let it release without even using the EZ-out itself.
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:25 pm quote
jimc wrote:
zombies-nyc wrote:
E-Z outs are not for stuck/rusted broken bolts. They should only be used if you over tighten and shear off the head of a free moving bolt.
I beg to differ.

If you make the hole for the EZ-out as large as possible without damaging the original threads then they tend to work very well. I've now done it twice on that very same bolt - once was on Lostboater's scoot on its side in a hotel parking lot on CB 2012. Always use left-handed drill bits to make the holes - often these will heat up the remains of the bolt enough to let it release without even using the EZ-out itself.
Totally agree with this.
I guess I should say the dremel method should be to get the extractor out, so use the impact screwdriver in right rotation. Don't worry about damage to the flat surface. Once it's out, then formulate a plan for the bolt. Reverse drill bit. The hardest part of drilling a broken bolt is getting the hole centered. A drill bit can wander even if you get the center punch true.
Drilling high speed steel(extractor) is a pain even if you have the correct drill bit, speed and coolant and handling a hand drill makes wandering worse.
When you get the extractor out, the worst case is Helicoil, no big deal but extra cost. The cheapest method would be the next size larger bolt but you have to drill the matching hole in the swingarm.
Best of luck.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:02 pm quote
A welder would put a nut over the broken studs/bolt and weld up the center. Then, the nut could be turned out. The fact that an ez-out is stuck in there makes it difficult because that is tool steel.

There is another way which requires the scooter or motor to be transported to a machine shop that has an Elox EDM (Electrical Discharge Machine). The bolt will be zapped out.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:54 am quote
NightWing wrote:
There is another way which requires the scooter or motor to be transported to a machine shop that has an Elox EDM (Electrical Discharge Machine). The bolt will be zapped out.
I haven't worked with EDM since 2005 so my information may be outdated. The part has to be submerged in a flushing fluid. That would require disassembly of the motor. The cost would be at or above part replacement.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:48 am quote
Not trying to rise above anyone here but I did this stuff for a living and glass eye had the better idea so far. And Jim the moderator is correct in saying that EZ-outs do work. I carried them in my industrial toolbox and broken fastners were a near daily event on machinery. The crap ones are just that and the betters ones will break, of course as the way they get hard entails also being brittle.

EDM is the "cleanest way" but lots of taking apart involved as said, so the welding touch is the better way to try first. I sure wouldn't want a shaky welder or one who doesn't do this everyday as it needs to be precise and obviously avoid an expensive engine. In a place like Boston it's definitely worth a call to a high level custom machine shop as I'm out of date on what they might have in that situation? Perhaps one that deals with serious power sports or racing or aviation?

Things like JB Weld are far removed from ever getting that thing out of there!
Those hollow cutters linked above are not for hand held use!
Lots of luck drilling out the extractor! Not gonna happen.
In hind sight, really serious application of heat might have helped?Hard to make "web guesses" on others mechanical misery.

Dremel tools are neat (and come up in DIY threads on the web everyday) but in many years of professional wrenching(and a lifetime of serious wood working) I did not own one, but do however own a Foredom flex cable tool. In my shop I would try this: A small diamond bit, ala dental style burr end and while wearing a magnifier and with lots of good light I would erode the broken EZ-out from inside the fastner remnant then go after the screw threads. My former dentist saved the dental burrs for me over the years as they stop using them whenever they fill will tooth goop.
It does work in this type of situation but a 6mm screw thread isn't much room for hand play.
One thing I know & have learned with this thread!!!!!!!!!!!! ->>> I'm playing very carefully on those particular screws when I change out my next rear tire! I do already use anti-sieze on them (my old GTS) and did have to clean up some threads on one with a tap once but forget which one it was of the several?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:51 am quote
flyingpertyhigh wrote:
NightWing wrote:
Can the swing arm be pulled off? It doesn't look like there is a bolt head there. If the swing arm is off, would you have better access to the bolt and maybe get Vice-Grip pliers on it. Sometimes a nut can be welded on a broken bolt and then it can be turned out with a wrench.
The swing arm is off. The bolt sheared against the engine, not against the swing arm. So there is nothing to grab or weld to. Itís conpletey flat against the engine.
Flat against the engine still lets you weld a nut onto the bolt no problem.

We have a place in my area called Allied Machine, they specialize in extraction of broken off bolts and will come to you.
Call a few cars dealerships and see if there is a company in your area that does this. Ask to talk to the service manager when you call, not just any service writer that may have only been there a week and knows nothing of this service.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:12 am quote
Spot ON! advice!!
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:53 am quote
When you go to a shop for service. Do they clean every part B4 reassembly? One of the reasons I prefer DIY. My Dremel has small wire wheels that are awesome for cleaning rust/corrosion in axel splines and other hard to get at areas during wheel changes.
I'm currently replacing the clutch on the Commuter and had the choice of doing it at work or at the storage place. When I tried to remove the clamp that connects the muffler to the pipe the nut/bolt was corroded and I had to use the Dremel to cut the bolt. Had I chose to DIY at the shed, I wouldn't have had electricity and I would have been pissed.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just showing my love for my dremel

P.S. Now I'm going to replace that nut/bolt every time I remove the muffler because of heat corrosion.
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:01 am quote
breaknwind wrote:
I'm not disagreeing with anyone, just showing my love for my dremel
They're handy tools to have. Mine must be about 40 years old. My father-in-law got it for Christmas, took it out of the box to try it out, and nearly sliced his finger off. So he gave it to me.
Hooked
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:07 am quote
I know the mechanic at Boston Vespa and he cannot fix this.

Iíve never welded a thing in my life so Iím not about to start on my engine. So Iím at a disadvantage.

JB Weld is our. A carbide bit wonít touch the extractor. Itís just grinding down. Tried even a hammer drill for a short period of time.

I am going to try dremel this afternoon after I get it out of storage.

After that is a machine shop, although I know of none.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:12 am quote
I wasn't hating on Dremels at all!, just making the point that on web/DIY threads they get far more play than in a professional garage situation, where they might be used but not anything like whats seen on typical PTW or vehicle forums where they are the everything tool of sorts. If it works use it?
Even wally, HD, etc., sells them.
I use a muffler cutter air tool to cut most fastners if it reaches OK.
Why should we be asking if a shop cleans stuff? The answer is they should? or is it they are nasty, untrained, dirty is OK skilled workers?

I read a survey many years ago of customers for auto repair and it had a result that a majority of respondents actually felt a dirty garage/shop meant a more likely good result-not that I buy into that notion-at all.
Some situations are just plain dirty. When I repaired lift trucks in a tire plant we had to steam clean them before commencing any repairs that entailed a breakdown but not for oil changes and routine stuff. You couldn't see the bolt heads before cleaning. On aircraft a whole new set of standards for cleanliness is in place.
Audi dealers would make you happy as they have many of their service writers wearing white frocks-HA! not that they fix anything...

OP: The place to start is the telephone yellow pages, etc., under machine shops and read their ads for their specialties.
Again----> Web -Tech nailed the best answer-
.
If not enough is exposed to play with on you broken tool, have you tried an air chisel with a sharp, conical point and somewhat vicious but well directed vibration? Might bounce outward?
Molto Verboso
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:20 am quote
flyingpertyhigh wrote:
I know the mechanic at Boston Vespa and he cannot fix this.

Iíve never welded a thing in my life so Iím not about to start on my engine. So Iím at a disadvantage.

JB Weld is our. A carbide bit wonít touch the extractor. Itís just grinding down. Tried even a hammer drill for a short period of time.

I am going to try dremel this afternoon after I get it out of storage.

After that is a machine shop, although I know of none.
A Dremel has cone shaped stones that can grind out that extractor, but it'll take for eeeeverrrr
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:23 am quote
flyingpertyhigh wrote:
I know the mechanic at Boston Vespa and he cannot fix this.

Iíve never welded a thing in my life so Iím not about to start on my engine. So Iím at a disadvantage.

JB Weld is our. A carbide bit wonít touch the extractor. Itís just grinding down. Tried even a hammer drill for a short period of time.

I am going to try dremel this afternoon after I get it out of storage.

After that is a machine shop, although I know of none.
STOP, you are going to make it worse and more expensive to fix. Again, call a few car dealerships and ask if they have anyone that comes by and removes broken fasteners. It is a big business and they will come to you.

You're near salt water, start calling boat dealers to see who they use.
Hooked
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:11 am quote
I got myself in over my head with a quick brake job in my driveway a couple of years ago that cascaded into much bigger drivetrain issues than amateur me was prepared to address. The car had no wheels, could not move, was blocking my other cars, looked like hell from the street, etc. My wife stopped talking to me for a while because she had to drive her car across the lawn to get to the street, she seemed to disagree with my view that it would be OK to do that for a week or two while I figured out what to do.

Solved the problem with a ďmobile mechanicĒ I found on Craigslist, who came to the house and was delighted to be so appreciated. He wasnít even expensive and Iíve used him for a couple of other items since. There were a lot of them to choose from on Craigslist.

You might find somebody like that in Boston who has removal skills and expects to make house calls. Wonít be a Vespa expert but you donít need that.

When you say you otherwise need a tow, is that strictly true? My Vespa fits pretty easily into a Sienna minivan, once the mirrors are off. It just takes a little tilting to get it past the tailgate, which is slightly narrower than the interior. And lots of people have minivans.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:58 am quote
tenders wrote:
Solved the problem with a ďmobile mechanicĒ I found on Craigslist, who came to the house and was delighted to be so appreciated. He wasnít even expensive and Iíve used him for a couple of other items since. There were a lot of them to choose from on Craigslist.

Trust me for this you want some that does This for a living. They are there, especially with lots of salt water and boats around. Just have to find them and I told him how to do that.
Ossessionato
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:31 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Trust me for this you want some that does This for a living.
This. Exactly this. No snub here, but this is not a place to learn welding, and for someone that does it every day, it will be a piece of cake. For what it's worth: Tip the guy (or Lady), before the job and let them know how much you appreciate it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:27 pm quote
tenders wrote:
When you say you otherwise need a tow, is that strictly true?
Let's just say a minivan isn't the answer.

Either tow, pickup truck or trailer are the only options I can think of.
Hooked
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 159
Location: Nebraska
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:01 pm quote
Gentle heat
Might try heating the engine case a bit with a heat gun, or very gently with a propane torch. Don't want it much hotter than boiling water. Steel bolt in alloy case, alloy should expand faster, maybe give you a little slack to loosen the bolt. Looks like you have enough exposed to grind screwdriver slot in it with a dremel disk. Heat, penetrating oil, heat, penetrating oil, dremel. Won't hurt if you grind a little bit of a slot on the case mounting surface. I usually have enough worn-down disks that I can grind a slot without impacting the surround much.
In my experience, stainless bolts in alloy cases seize up just as bad as steel. A bit of anti-seize would be a good idea. If you can get better-quality fasteners (the old 'grade 8' bolts) they are less likely to snap, although you may tear out the threads instead.

Worse comes to worst, a machine shop should be able to put in a thread insert. Don't know if it would be feasible in that location, but I have also installed studs in some such locations and used nuts on them. That way you're not wearing out the threads in alloy cases.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 Midnight Blue
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2129
Location: Karawang
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:22 pm quote
For future forum searchers.

The big take on here .

Is to always use the largest screw extractor possible. If it is a 6mm broken stud use a 5mm extractor etc. This reduces the possibility of of breaking the extractor.
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