Issues with Pinasco 225 Supersport pistons
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Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4603
Location: So Cal
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:07 am quote
freakmoped wrote:
running in a coated cylinder = just a few kilometers
and HARD
read more about it from the motoman, a real proffessional
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Interesting ... he also says don’t use synthetic oil during break in because it’s “too slippery”.

I dunno, maybe hard break in works on hyper-tuned race engines. I’m sticking with the old school method ... easy throttle for the first few heat cycles.
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2902
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:22 am quote
Ginch wrote:
ScooterRaton wrote:
...One may want to consider that hard break contrary to manufacture's recommendations may contribute to failures.
I don't know what THE correct method is, but the hard break in makes sense to me (despite the website and music videos).
Vader urged me to use it - albeit with cooling down between runs - and I haven't seized any motors since then. He said he did every motor like that and had never seized.

On another topic a friend bought a Pinasco direct '9 port' cylinder and there was no cross-hatching on the bore whatsover, just what he said looked like a chrome surface. He got a reassurances from a few sources to say it was ok, but he still remains a bit skeptical.
Ginch, I know breakin can be controversial. Thanks for the report on experience with the hard break in method. I fully respect your and Vader's opinions considering the knowledge and experience and appreciate having some valid backup to that article.

So...now I have to reevaluate my opinions for break in...and I just got my GS motor back from rebuild and need to break it in!

Maybe it doesn't really matter which way you do it as long as you follow the recommendations for each method?
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2902
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:25 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Interesting ... he also says don’t use synthetic oil during break in because it’s “too slippery”.
I always break in with dino oil. It has been suggested to me by several knowledgeable people. Once broken in I change to full synthetic.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4603
Location: So Cal
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:24 am quote
ScooterRaton wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
Interesting ... he also says don’t use synthetic oil during break in because it’s “too slippery”.
I always break in with dino oil. It has been suggested to me by several knowledgeable people. Once broken in I change to full synthetic.
I usually slather conventional on everything during a rebuild and run synth through the tank ... no seizes so far, and all engines happy, so who knows. Honestly, as long as it’s not run lean, allowed to warm up, and the tolerances are good, I can’t see how it matters a heck of a lot what kind of oil you use for break in.
Member
px244gs, cosa221LX, sprint177, gilera runner 180, triumph tiger 955
Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 38
Location: vienna/austria (the other one, w/o kangaroos)
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:37 am quote
"thinking that Pinasco had likely considered the issue, and engineered the danger out somehow. Apparently not. "

forget common sense when it comes to pinasco
see the latest 213/225 piston
it shows hot they act

what comes efficient and looks good
lets take it

any problems?
---> costumer motuning problem. for sure. always. <---

curious how they will proceed as all new pistons
162, 177, 190 and 225 are breaking
(as well as the old asso of course)


"the good news is that the rings don't actually hit the wide edges as their travel stops short of that zone (the largest being the exhaust port)"
the would brake at once



"but the piston skirt does."
yep. and esp the weak parts of the piston


ad first picture:
is that oil? did it look like that when you pulled the head?
thenn you have a massive gearbox oil sucker.


i would not analyse the carbon deposist, but make sure to get a good piston


this picture shows what i meant


these huge edges without a beam in the middle
stress the piston exactly in the weakes areas

green: the weakest part of the piston
red: the wide cyl L port edges
a lot of overlapping, it exactly hits the weakest part of the piston (...)
someone obviously did NOT think about this potential problem....





"In any case, I tried to make all edges as smooth as possible inside & out without actually removing too much material..."

pic not sharp, so i cant see the bottom piston skirt edge, thats the most important one. and no worries, rounding edges doesnt do any harm to this piston


lets hope that this is enough and the piston will last now
any other pinasco 213 L port owner: buy a grand sport GS piston
(or better sell this 1port cylinder kit)













aaah. of course its double again...
i am too silly for this forum software
how do i add pics that i just uploaded...
cant find it
sry!

jazv9OY_marked.jpg

Member
px244gs, cosa221LX, sprint177, gilera runner 180, triumph tiger 955
Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 38
Location: vienna/austria (the other one, w/o kangaroos)
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:52 am quote
Quote:
Like I his on this post and over the years, Pinasco is a scam. They can't get their metallurgic together.
coming straight to the point
LIKE
Quote:
That can happen with any modified motor. Had a buddy just twist a crank on a Malossi 210, people hole pistons on good kits etc.
sorry, thats not correct that this can happen to any modified engine
it cann NOT if you do your homework right:
1) you make sure the crank is top and state of the art
2) you set timings
3) provide enough fuel (tap & 2,5mm drill unter mj)
4) set carb right
5) of course taking care of basics such as oil sucker issue and 0,05mm rotary valve tolerance

if you dont provide this
yes, every vespa engine will cause problems

(ok, some hardware problems should be known
ie that bgm only sells really bad cranks, that sip bearings are complete rubbish, new out of the box the sound like a 50.000km old one etc)


but a vespa engine is a very simple tractor engine
once done right, nothing can happen


another issue in this scene is, as it is pretty cheap
and such a small engine, a lot of not so experienced people
try by their own.
THATS why vespa has such a bad reputation

the technique itself is KISS principle.
very easy. unkillable.


3 weak spots at this engine:

1) dirty fuel & air filter (well thats with every engine isnt it)

2) clutch linings, the original thin ones are rubbish,
but honda CR80 linings help

3) clutches itself (px old better than cosa btw)
i am online consulting the 4th vespa world traveller now (contacted me over fb) a couple from australia, 2 people on one young px.

the inner part of the cosa clutch gave up very fast, huge
Quote:
Al's recommendation was 1,000 mile break in for the Pinasco. He also stated "Break it in like a dog and it will run like a dog, break it in right and it will run beautifully!"
i clearlly disagree with AL here
(not the only thing we dont agree btw )

ALs saying: i do like agressive engines, fast throttle response, not beautiful soft engines, so another argument to break in HARD

HARD and SHORT breaking = piston skirt without = tight rings
sloooow & sooooft break in = piston skirt with blowby = not tight rings

i prefer tight rings

slow break in dont help in any way if the engine is not set right and/or the piston is rubbish as the asso piston. it will brake anyways,
simply see franks pictures, he ran in softly i bet (he mentioned it for sure)


also for sure:
in this low power sector the difference cant be really measured
as it can when it comes to motorbikes, see motomans info
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm


so in the end, it doesnt really matter
however its done it will ride from A to B
only the piston skirt shows then later on
how it was done




as i like doing things technically right
i break in all engines i buld (and testride)
HARD and SHORT
Member
px244gs, cosa221LX, sprint177, gilera runner 180, triumph tiger 955
Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 38
Location: vienna/austria (the other one, w/o kangaroos)
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:57 am quote
was bored yesterday
i do have a lot of old pistons laying around

so i cut them open
to show the difference between
good pistons and the weak asso piston


malossi 211 (and gs grand sport piston which is similiar)
vs
asso piston

the missing beam to one side
the weak edge with the tiny rest of piston skirt at the bottom
it is very obvious, isnt it.

will add original pistons later, do have them at home.


@FRANK
could you take pictures of the piston skirt of the new piston
in the area where of the too wide edges?
are there stripe marks visible?



easy conclusion:
--> dont buy any kit with the weakest 200cc piston (from the 80ies)

48407520_1920050604769739_3154026435161620480_o.jpg

48930790_1920054101436056_8345539047208255488_o.jpg

48368798_1920053471436119_3422046902831546368_o.jpg

48930790_1920054101436056_8345539047208255488_o.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6844
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:59 pm quote
freakmoped wrote:
aaah. of course its double again...
i am too silly for this forum software
how do i add pics that i just uploaded...
cant find it
sry!
If you want the pictures in between your text, they need to be hosted somewhere like Imgur etc, and then link using the BB code. If you don't mind having them all at the end of your post you can upload them using the browse etc buttons. Although you may have found a way to do both!
Can be a bit of an annoying system, uploading is better if you want the picture to be there in two years.
Hooked
Jet 200, P200E (x2), T5
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 303
Location: Paris, France & L.A., Cal, USA
Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:15 am quote
@FMP: not sure which pic you're referring to. This first one was taken during installation, to point out how the piston crown and transfers didn't line up (which is why I raised the cylinder 1.5mm and shaved the top by the same amount). The oil is just new 2T oil brushed on for lubrication.



This is what the top end with new piston looked like after a few hundred miles, when I opened it up to check on it and insist on the chamfering process:








This is the new piston without visible scratches, after extra chamfering:

[/quote]
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:37 am quote
Frank, did you measure the exhaust and transfer timings after raising the cylinder by 1.5mm? That seems a lot for a Pinasco Supersport with it's exhaust port shape and height. Is your kit specifically for the 60mm crank? I also tried raising mine by 1.5mm for the same reason, but I seem to remember getting ~130 TD, and ended up removing the base packer to keep it torquey. Actually I am currently running with no base gasket to keeo the cylinder as low as possible. I just use copper gasket spray to give me a good seal.
Enthusiast
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 91
Location: Norway
Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:22 pm quote
After reading this i feel, little stressed.
But wonder how this issue is conserning the pinasco T5 162?
Any one tried or had any problems with that kit?
Hooked
Jet 200, P200E (x2), T5
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 303
Location: Paris, France & L.A., Cal, USA
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:41 pm quote
@Wilhelm: I can't speak for the Pinasco kit for T5, as I haven't tried it (neither will I). What I can say is that the Malossi 172 not only enjoys an excellent longstanding reputation; it's also what I have on my T5, and it's endured some abuse, including freeway runs with no oil (a cylinder swap with a friend's, who forgot to mention his was the premix type). On the other hand, there are so many stories of bad experiences with recent Pinasco releases that I wouldn't touch one until a few years go by, and it proves reliable. Once again, my 225 was part of the first batch of the full kit with 8 cylinder head screws (they released a weird unit with the same cylinder as mine, but the old cylinder head with 4 screws prior), and I was told some adjustments would have to be made. I get having to dial in the carburetion, as that's a basic. But having to rework the cylinder skirt and exhaust stud, just so that the former will fit in standard casings, and the latter in a standard (I actually tried several) exhaust pipe? That's just bad engineering and/or manufacturing.
As mentioned, a friend cracked 2 of the same pistons, and had issues with the Pinasco crankcases he bought: both sides machined at different heights, so the crank and primary didn't align, holes drilled too wide, so the bearings and seals weren't snug in their fittings - once again: bad engineering or manufacturing; in any case useless products unless rewelded and rectified. Another friend had issues with the nikasil plating stripping on his cylinder kit, in which case they actually acknowledged the issue and sent him a new one. Sadly, it appears that Gilardoni, the company behind the excellent nikasil coating Pinasco's cylinders were renowned for, is too busy lining BMW cylinders to do extra work for Pinasco, so they had to try a different supplier. I'm not sure what the excuse for the rest of their current failures is...

@swa45: This kit was sold as made for the 60mm crank, as evidenced by the name (225), yet the ports and the piston paired with Pinasco's own 60mm crank didn't align, as can be seen in the first pic in my last post, taken at BDC. Apparently they actually intended this to run with the 62mm crank they released a year or so after my version of the kit, because on paper, the squish and piston/port alignment would make more sense, although I'm pretty sure the compression would make it unreliable as a daily driver.
Speaking of which: I did set it up first without the 1.5 packer, and it was nice and torquey, but the compression was such I blew a few seals. To counter the issue, I now use double-lipped viton seals (on the ignition side) that seem to hold much better, and I raised the cylinder with the 1.5 plate, which turned it into an all-around slow mover: the already ginormous squish was now around 4mm! To get some compression back, I skimmed the head to compensate for the base packing, and that turned it back into a torquey tourer that no longer struggled miserably in the rev department. The squish is still comparable to the gigantic Piaggio figure, but I wouldn't dare take it down to the 1.4 I have on the T5, as I'm pretty sure it would start blowing seals again, knocking, etc...
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:47 pm quote
Frank, I asked because some people have used the 215 kit with a 1.5mm packer, in order to run with a 60mm crank, so they would still have a 225cc motor.

My kit was the initial version of the 'Supersport' in Autumn 2013, so it indeed has the extra 4 bolt holes in the cylinder, but it has the older A3610 head with just the four holes. I've had no problems with it, but I must admit the compression was pretty crazy when I first put it together. I always use the double lip Viton seals on my motors, despite them being 7mm thick rather than 6mm. I think they are meant for Gilera 180? motors.

I removed my cylinder during 2015 for a 4000 km ring change and the piston and cylinder were like new. Maybe I was lucky.

[EDIT] just looked at old photos. My head is the 810 'VRH' which was supplied with the early Supersport kits. The cylinder has the 'L' shaped transfers.
Member
px244gs, cosa221LX, sprint177, gilera runner 180, triumph tiger 955
Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 38
Location: vienna/austria (the other one, w/o kangaroos)
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:48 pm quote
everyone who owns such a kit, doing sthg is highly recommended, it is fact that the piston is bad, the weakest of all 200cc pistons

Here as separate guide:
Ok frank, oil from assembling i see

the effect getting the transfer ports to open fully is low
Cause with our raising of the cylinder you raised transfer oort timings and lowered blow down which steals performance, as all pinasco kits usually have weired cylinder timings

Raising a cyl narrows power band and looses power in low rev.
Always measure timings, then calculate and decide where u put the gasket.

Hint: better go for head gasket to keep the blow down high

In general there isnt that much power
as it misses real real ports...

as someone posted, oinasco, esp this cylinder kit, is simply scam.

better get rid of these cylinders, as long as the piston still lives
And trust me
You won't believe the torque and power a malossi sport 210 provides pnp 17hp at the wheel with a box

no, engine case porting is not needed for that
Hooked
Jet 200, P200E (x2), T5
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 303
Location: Paris, France & L.A., Cal, USA
Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:36 pm quote
Are you referring to the 2016 Malossi 210 sport, with vertex piston with wider windows, or the original 210? And would you recommend the kit with the accompanying Malossi head, or a reworked Piaggio head (or Worb, etc)?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6844
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:02 pm quote
I think he means the Sport generally, and not the pre-2013 cylinder.

I've had the 2013 and 2016 versions (due to chipping the nikasil at the top of the first one) and they are indistinguishable from a riding point of view. I do know the 2016 piston is a tiny bit shorter as you had to remove maybe 1mm off the bottom on a long stroke motor. Anyway it's an awesome touring cylinder and definitely works well with an SI and SIP Road or similar.
Hooked
50 N
Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 261
Location: North Aberdeenshire
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:15 pm quote
Wilhelm, have you got the T5 162?

I can see the reasoning behind the reed version but the rotary is beyond stupid.

I know there was secondhand reports on here somewhere that at least 1 Italian chap went through 4 pistons within 2,000 miles or something like that. From memory it was Safis who reported it but I could be wrong.
Hooked
Jet 200, P200E (x2), T5
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 303
Location: Paris, France & L.A., Cal, USA
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:34 am quote
Juan Kerr wrote:
Wilhelm, have you got the T5 162?
the rotary is beyond stupid.
How so?

P.S. I just read your handle out loud and got it
Hooked
50 N
Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 261
Location: North Aberdeenshire
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:14 pm quote
Juan Kerr wrote:
What I was really referring to was the lack of fins on the barrel and that bloody stupid stopper plate. WTF are they thinking? It's not like they couldn't do a properly cooled and finned rotary version as I was a big fan of the version they had out in the mid 80's to early 90's
Yeah, it takes a while for the penny to drop sometimes ref the handle. I can't claim it was my own work, I stole the joke from Shooting Stars years ago.
Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 7382
Location: San Francisco
Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:06 pm quote
I've always hated the say the 200 cylinder was rotated off the centerline.
But these pistons could solve all the structural and flow issues, maybe:

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6844
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:24 pm quote
I saw that video in a FB group recently. Seems like a great idea - especially that the weight is so much lower which surprised me.

But not sure if it could work where the cutouts on the piston need to be large to make up for lack of transfer area? Might weaken them too much.

The other piston development discussed in that thread was a 2 part piston also. I'm not exactly how it worked but it restrained the rings somehow so that they couldn't drop out into a wide port and snag.
Here's the group if you haven't seen it - https://www.facebook.com/groups/671081149638729/
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6844
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:25 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
I saw that video in a FB group recently. Seems like a great idea - especially that the weight is so much lower which surprised me.

But not sure if it could work where the cutouts on the piston need to be large to make up for lack of transfer area? Might weaken them too much.

The other piston development discussed in that group was also a 2 part piston. I'm not exactly how it worked but it restrained the rings somehow so that they couldn't drop out into a wide port and snag.
Here's the group if you haven't seen it - https://www.facebook.com/groups/671081149638729/
Member
px244gs, cosa221LX, sprint177, gilera runner 180, triumph tiger 955
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Location: vienna/austria (the other one, w/o kangaroos)
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:04 am quote
sry was on holiday

"Are you referring to the 2016 Malossi 210 sport, with vertex piston with wider windows"
malossi sport 210 yes

"or the original 210?"
lets call it malossi OLD
no, not to this one its not available anymore


"And would you recommend the kit with the accompanying Malossi head, or a reworked Piaggio head (or Worb, etc)?"
standard malossi head is very good
17hp on the wheel just plug and play without any case adjustments


"I've always hated the say the 200 cylinder was rotated off the centerline.
But these pistons could solve all the structural and flow issues"
whats the problem with that? it doesnt matter
its only about if pistons are good or bad
how twisted the cylinder (and the piston) is doesnt matter

youtube video links not working btw
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