GTS 300 HPE Supertech or Malossi 282cc Engine Upgrade Kit
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:50 pm quote
Greetings,

I've had my Vespa 70th Anniversary GTS 300 for a couple of years now and most of my riding has been on the highways in and around San Diego. I've also done some light touring to Santa Barbra, LA, Los Vegas, Palm Springs, and in October I went to Yosemite and toured around the Valley, and around Mammoth and Mono Lakes, including a trip to Bishop. All in all I was wonderfully surprised with how well the GTS 300 handled on the highway. Most particularly surprising is how well behaved this scoot was on windy roads and highways, which was heavily tested during my trip to Palm Springs. On the roads from San Diego to the range lands to the east, to places such as Julian, up to the top of Palomar mountain, and touring around Yosemite and the Sierras', in which the roads can get narrow with lots of twists, this machine takes these corners in stride and handles the hills well, especially because the speed limits are mostly 55 MPH (90 KPH) or less. On the Interstate and State freeways, for the most part, this scooter will keep up with traffic albeit with not a lot of power to spare for passing or to power away to gain better position, etc. As long as the road grade stays under 6 degrees this scoot can keep moving at the posted speed of 65 MPH (105 KPH), but beyond that, the GTS300 bogs down to just under a leisurely 60 MPH (97 KPH) at wide open throttle. This is typically not a problem since these highways have passing lanes and all the other vehicles simply pass by me.

I know I can get a larger scooter such as the Piaggio BV350 that will provide me ample power for the highway. In my younger days I did lots of touring around the United States on a Harley Road King and then an Electra Glide. But now I ride a Vespa of which I particularly like the styling and I can pack lots of stuff on it. It is one sweet ride, and beats the pants of my pervious large touring motorcycles in city driving and traffic. Nothing rides better in LA or San Diego Traffic than a Vespa with an automatic transmission. My left hand thanks me for this since there is no clutch to pull over and over and over again, ad nauseam.

Since the GTS 300's current engine generates a puny 21.2 horse power, I was contemplating upping the power by slapping on a Malossi 282cc engine upgrade kit. From everything I have read this modification will probably provide a sufficient improvement to the standard GTS 300 engine to allow me to run at highways speeds in the steeper road grades that currently bogs me down. However I have come to learn that next year Vespa will be offer an upgraded GTS 300 engine (HPE Supertech) that will boost the horse power by 12%. On paper both of these improvements should do the trick of boosting power sufficiently to meet my need to keep up with traffic and now I am leaning towards waiting for the new higher performance GTS. If the performance numbers on the new GTS 300 engine prove true, what are your thoughts whether to upgrade the existing engine vs. waiting for the HPE Supertech Vespa? What are your thoughts on how these performance upgrades will translate into highway riding performance??? --- Thanks
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Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:54 pm quote
The Malossi V4 kit only gives about 5% more power at its peak. But that is very deceptive, as it maintains its higher power at higher revs and is giving 40% more power at 8000 rpm, according to Malossi's dyno graphs. So the claim that the HPE engine gives 12% more power tells you nothing without a graph covering the whole rev range.

I have heard from a guy who has a friend who works for Piaggio that the HPE engine is a lot more powerful. I think it will be much more powerful that a V4 kitted machine, but I guess we will all have to wait and see.

I have a second GTS300 Super, bought two months ago, and I plan to trade it in on the new model when it arrives. Just hope there are some nice colours offered, not just red, white and black! Might get the touring, just for the colour, and then scrap the carrier and windscreen.

Mike
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:00 am quote
GREAT INFO, AND VERY HELPFUL. Thanks for those insights!
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:40 am quote
T-Rock wrote:
GREAT INFO, AND VERY HELPFUL. Thanks for those insights!
Welcome to Modern Vespa T-Rock!
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:47 am quote
Interesting information Mike. If the information about the new Vespa engine vs the Malossi kit is true the decision to wait for the new HPE engine is easy. From what has been reported in the media the new SuperTech Vespa will initially come in the uninspiring colors of “Volcano Black” or “Matter Grey”.
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:59 am quote
sandiego_steve wrote:
Interesting information Mike. If the information about the new Vespa engine vs the Malossi kit is true the decision to wait for the new HPE engine is easy. From what has been reported in the media the new SuperTech Vespa will initially come in the uninspiring colors of “Volcano Black” or “Matter Grey”.
The EICMA thread shows several colors including an interesting dark green with dark brown seat.

New Vespa GTS at EICMA 2018!
Molto Verboso
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:01 am quote
The 2014+ GTS300 with the full 282cc Malossi kit, including the Malossi Forcemaster 2 set to position number 4 for the standard exhaust puts out in the region of 25.8 - 26hp at the crank. That's 4hp more than standard. Malossi actually claims a 20% increase in power over standard motor but not quite seen that yet. The standard motor is just under 22hp at the crank. The very last standard GTS that I saw tested on an inertia Dyno was putting out 22.1hp before the Malossi kit was added. Afterwards, it ran at 25.7hp or thereabouts (afaikr). That will improve I was told as the piston and cylinder bed in (it had covered just 1000 miles since the kit was fitted).

Steve, reckon I'll go for the Malossi kit myself as it will be cheaper than trading in my 2016 Anniversary model.
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:34 pm quote
Malossi claim a maximum torque of 21.25 nm for their V4 kit. Vespa claim 26 nm for the HPE engine. I don't know how much more an Akra exhaust and Forcemaster will give to the Malossi kit.

So once again we need to see dyno graphs and ride reports.

Edit: Just been pulling some figures.

From Malossi's blurb on their V4 kit,

Standard GTS300 19.73 hp @ 7400 rpm
20.7 nm @ 6000 rpm

Malossi V4 kit 22.57 hp @ 8200 rpm
21.25 nm @ 6500 rpm

From Piagguio's blurb on the HPE engine,

HPE engine 23.5 hp @ 8250 rpm
26 nm @ 5250 rpm

So the power peak is now at much higher revs, higher even than the Malossi, which should be good for top speed. This is where the earlier GTS engine had dropped dramatically in power. The torque peak has moved down a fair bit, making for great take-off. I'm putting my money on the HPE engine as being the more exciting ride.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:55 pm quote
Mike, do you have a link for the Malossi figures? Can't see those figures on the Malossi site. What you are saying is in contrast to everything I've seen on the Dyno for the 282cc kitted bikes. Never seen such low power output for any 300cc bike with the 282 kit. SIP's Malossi figures are on their website claiming 20% increase in power. Those figs are listed elsewhere too. Not talking about just the V4 head kit which does give an increase of around 1.2hp and a bit more torque. The power increase I've seen are for a bike with standard exhaust setup with the Forcemaster 2 and 282 full kit. It was impressive. Are the figs you quote AT THE CRANK? Sounds as if you are quoting AT THE REAR WHEEL figs. Is that the case?

I think the GTS300 etc figs you quote are for the earlier pre-2014 bikes. The later 2014 onwards bikes (euro3) hit a genuine 22hp+ at the crank certainly over here. Seems to be down to better fuelling & ignition from the 32bit ECU.

In the meantime I'll see if anyone has kept their Dyno readout with the full kit on. I'll post it if I can get hold of one. Cheers for now.
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:21 pm quote
Strom, the figures I quoted come from a Malossi blurb for their V4 head. It includes power and torque curves for the 125, 200, 250 and 300. But I think the 300 curves are for the head with the original cylinder, a slight difference in capacity. And I'm quite sure the document is pre-2014. I have never seen any Malossi performance curves for the V4 kit with Force Master and performance exhaust. Do you have them, or a link?

I have tried the Force Master on my GTS and was not aware if any improvement. I felt a definite improvement with the Lambda emulator, so that is what I am using now (with a slightly larger injector). I also tried a Force Master on my GTS250, but the TPS verification didn't work, and it also made no noticeable difference. The GTS300 version doesn't have a TPS verification procedure, only TPS setup. I also have a Power Commander sitting in a box in my shed.

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Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:10 pm quote
question is, will malossi make a kit for the new HPE motor? And how much power can the bike frame withstand?
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:19 pm quote
Have a look at what Zirri01 has achieved with his GTS300 - 30 hp. There is a long write-up on it on Vespaforum.de and on Aprilliaforum. Several scooters with his modifications have been running for years with no problems, so I don't think you need to worry.
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Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:59 pm quote
Frame strength
Just my 2 cents, but I would think the rigidity of a 300 frame, given it's inherent strength that comes with a monocoque steel frame design, should be able to hold up to any hp that comes from an engine upgrade. I think Alex at Vespa Motorsport had an early 300 with the Malossi upgrade, pipe, rollers. etc... and it did a proven 100 mph and ran for over 20,000 miles before it needed ring replacements.
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Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:18 am quote
Mike Holland wrote:
Strom, the figures I quoted come from a Malossi blurb for their V4 head. It includes power and torque curves for the 125, 200, 250 and 300. But I think the 300 curves are for the head with the original cylinder, a slight difference in capacity. And I'm quite sure the document is pre-2014. I have never seen any Malossi performance curves for the V4 kit with Force Master and performance exhaust. Do you have them, or a link?

I have tried the Force Master on my GTS and was not aware if any improvement. I felt a definite improvement with the Lambda emulator, so that is what I am using now (with a slightly larger injector). I also tried a Force Master on my GTS250, but the TPS verification didn't work, and it also made no noticeable difference. The GTS300 version doesn't have a TPS verification procedure, only TPS setup. I also have a Power Commander sitting in a box in my shed.
Thanks Mike. Yes I thought the figs were for just the V4 head setup. The full 282 kit with the head, cylinder, piston, Forcemaster etc just takes off and is much more powerful. I've ridden one and it was soooo good and my thoughts are it'll be much faster than the HPE engined bike! I think also some folks get confused with DIN & SAE hp figures (crank and/or back wheel) when quoting from some of these sites because there are sites quoting both sets of data.

I'm trying to contact a couple of my old customers to see if they have their old dyno charts still. Not too hopeful as that was over two year ago when we did that. Lost touch with one of them too. But I'll see what I can come up with over the next day or two.

EDIT: 13/12/18... Can't find anyone with their dyno chart for this. Too long ago. I didn't even print out charts for any of my bikes when I did them as the dyno was just there, sitting in the workshop if needed anytime. Sorry...

Last edited by Stromrider on Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
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Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:23 am quote
Re: Frame strength
T-Rock wrote:
Just my 2 cents, but I would think the rigidity of a 300 frame, given it's inherent strength that comes with a monocoque steel frame design, should be able to hold up to any hp that comes from an engine upgrade. I think Alex at Vespa Motorsport had an early 300 with the Malossi upgrade, pipe, rollers. etc... and it did a proven 100 mph and ran for over 20,000 miles before it needed ring replacements.
You are quite correct Mr Rock. The Vespa monoque frame on the GTS is 2.5 times as strong as a similar midsize maxi scooter trellis frame according to Vespa. It's much more rigid and has considerable strength. You can put as much HP into it as you can get with no ill effects on the frame.
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:26 am quote
Does anyone really believe Piaggio's specs? How many of you still believe the Pirmavera 150 gets 124 mpg?

Take a moment and think about it...

They slapped a new head on the old engine, changed the injector, and gave it a new name. Now it makes significantly more power and gets better gas mileage. No, not just better, it gets amazing, almost unbelievable gas mileage, and meets more stringent emissions requirements at the same time. The issue with the Primavera engine being an underpowered dog that didn't live up to it's specs was something about converting liters or imperial gallons, all the roads they tested it on in Italy ran downhill, or something other than "we just make stuff up". But this time it's different, because you want it to be true.

Do you think the new 300 Hype engine will perform better than the one in a Honda Forza/SH300? It makes significantly more power (according to Piaggio anyway).

So if they did give it bigger valves, it's still the old ET4 engine with liquid cooling, more (and now, bigger) valves, a longer crank and a big bore kit, and they still had to meet emissions standards. What miracle of engineering do you think allowed them to make a heavily regulated engine outperform the same engine with all the Malossi parts on it, designed for the sole purpose of going faster and unencumbered by thoughts of regulation, and get better fuel economy?

Piaggio will do anything to get as much life out of an engine as they can, and this is their solution to Euro 4, because at the end of the day, it's still cheaper than making a new, modern engine.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:49 am quote
Fuel economy is always..."how long is a piece of string"! We all get different results from any bike or car we ride or drive. But not defending Piaggio here, but you do know that here is 'Urop' manufacturers are strictly governed on how they advertise and what they say concerning any claims they make about their bikes. In other words, they must prove everything if asked to do so. If like VW they can't, there are heavy penalties and the brand loses sales and face harming business.

Engines I designed and developed had to be repeatedly tested over and over again to prove not only their power outputs but fuel consumption and longevity too. Manufacturers always under quote on power output too. Just to be safe. That's why when you put your Vespa GTS on the dyno it will often deliver more power than expected. Malossi have to do the same to claim the figures they give out. Last time I checked, the Honda Forza doesn't even come into the equation...what's that about! The Honda has a more powerful motor here in 'Urop' (25ps & 27.5nm of torque). It's slightly heavier than the GTS but more aerodynamic. Doubtful though that the GTS will outperform it in top speed but maybe it will regarding acceleration due to lighter weight and similar power output.

Motovista, splendid chap that you are, you don't appear to know how engine development works. "Slapping a new head on an old engine and changing the injector" is exactly how this works. But with much more stuff done than that. It has to have new ecu software for fuelling and ignition, different breathing capabilities, a new catalytic converter (why the silencer is different style), throttle body most likely and lots of other mods. The HPE engine has a host of modifications to the motor including new piston too and new transmission parts. That's why it produces much more power than the old motor. It's what I expected Piaggio to do and posted as much probably 18 or so months ago when an interesting thread developed on here. I even said the power output would be in the region of 24ps with a substantial boost to torque. It's not rocket science and it keeps the motor fresh for years to come. No need to develop a completely new motor, just not needed. And non of this is rocket science or a "miracle".

My Vespa GTS300 is capable of 117mpg in the WMTC test. But of course, no one expects to get that in real life. Best I've had so far is 94mpg (uk gal) and I'm really pleased with that. I average between 87-89mpg though in everyday riding. Other folks will get more or less than that figure because we all use our bikes differently and have different ride techniques and have different road and traffic conditions. So the WMTC figure is purely a guide figure for the WMTC conditons of test so the bike can be compared with other bikes in the same WMTC conditions. Just saying...

Last edited by Stromrider on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 am quote
Re: GTS 300 HPE Supertech or Malossi 282cc Engine Upgrade Ki
sandiego_steve wrote:
but beyond that, the GTS300 bogs down to just under a leisurely 60 MPH (97 KPH) at wide open throttle.
They key here is at what RPM is the motor turning when it bogs at 60 mph.

Mike 1 might be able to help here and he probably knows what my thinking is!
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:41 am quote
It shouldnt be too long before someone has ridden both the HPE and kitted malossi bike. I am with motovista, I would guess a kitted malossi would kick but on the new HPE. but its just a guess.
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:22 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Does anyone really believe Piaggio's specs? How many of you still believe the Pirmavera 150 gets 124 mpg?

Take a moment and think about it...

They slapped a new head on the old engine, changed the injector, and gave it a new name. Now it makes significantly more power and gets better gas mileage. No, not just better, it gets amazing, almost unbelievable gas mileage, and meets more stringent emissions requirements at the same time. The issue with the Primavera engine being an underpowered dog that didn't live up to it's specs was something about converting liters or imperial gallons, all the roads they tested it on in Italy ran downhill, or something other than "we just make stuff up". But this time it's different, because you want it to be true.

Do you think the new 300 Hype engine will perform better than the one in a Honda Forza/SH300? It makes significantly more power (according to Piaggio anyway).

So if they did give it bigger valves, it's still the old ET4 engine with liquid cooling, more (and now, bigger) valves, a longer crank and a big bore kit, and they still had to meet emissions standards. What miracle of engineering do you think allowed them to make a heavily regulated engine outperform the same engine with all the Malossi parts on it, designed for the sole purpose of going faster and unencumbered by thoughts of regulation, and get better fuel economy?

Piaggio will do anything to get as much life out of an engine as they can, and this is their solution to Euro 4, because at the end of the day, it's still cheaper than making a new, modern engine.
They are play with fire if they "miss represent HP or MPG in the US, they will end up being sued by someone or fined by the FTC or some Govt Regulator.
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:21 am quote
Re: GTS 300 HPE Supertech or Malossi 282cc Engine Upgrade Ki
waspmike wrote:
sandiego_steve wrote:
but beyond that, the GTS300 bogs down to just under a leisurely 60 MPH (97 KPH) at wide open throttle.
They key here is at what RPM is the motor turning when it bogs at 60 mph.

Mike 1 might be able to help here and he probably knows what my thinking is!
I don’t know the RPM when I am being bogged down at around 60 MPH except to say that I am at wide open throttle. I guess someone could the math except that it would be tricky to determine what the transmission ratio would be.
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:23 am quote
Re: GTS 300 HPE Supertech or Malossi 282cc Engine Upgrade Ki
sandiego_steve wrote:
waspmike wrote:
sandiego_steve wrote:
but beyond that, the GTS300 bogs down to just under a leisurely 60 MPH (97 KPH) at wide open throttle.
They key here is at what RPM is the motor turning when it bogs at 60 mph.

Mike 1 might be able to help here and he probably knows what my thinking is!
I don’t know the RPM when I am being bogged down at around 60 MPH except to say that I am at wide open throttle. I guess someone could the math except that it would be tricky to determine what the transmission ratio would be.
I had that issue with my 2015 GTS, turned out the washer at the manifold was gone. Replaced it and the issue stopped and it's less noisy
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:00 am quote
Re: GTS 300 HPE Supertech or Malossi 282cc Engine Upgrade Ki
sandiego_steve wrote:
waspmike wrote:
sandiego_steve wrote:
but beyond that, the GTS300 bogs down to just under a leisurely 60 MPH (97 KPH) at wide open throttle.
They key here is at what RPM is the motor turning when it bogs at 60 mph.

Mike 1 might be able to help here and he probably knows what my thinking is!
I don’t know the RPM when I am being bogged down at around 60 MPH except to say that I am at wide open throttle. I guess someone could the math except that it would be tricky to determine what the transmission ratio would be.
That's likely to be in the region of 7k rpm if I remember correctly from the dyno runs I did. You transmission will be locked in high gear mode at 60mph if the variator is working correctly. As budz says, it's worth checking your exhaust manifold gasket at the head and at the silencer where it joins the exhaust manifold downpipe. Air leaks there can affect performance.
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:29 am quote
No one from the moto-journalist community has ridden the 300HPE engine, looking forward to hearing what they have to say.. and dealers have not been told when the new GTS300 will be available, other than "in 2019".

If anyone hears any concrete info on when the HPE equipped 300s will be released, please let us know.
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Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:50 pm quote
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WHY WAIT... BUY THE MALOSSI... THEN BUY THE 2019 AND DO A SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON! You'll be doing us all a favor!!
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Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:36 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
Motovista, splendid chap that you are, you don't appear to know how engine development works. "Slapping a new head on an old engine and changing the injector" is exactly how this works. But with much more stuff done than that. It has to have new ecu software for fuelling and ignition, different breathing capabilities, a new catalytic converter (why the silencer is different style), throttle body most likely and lots of other mods. The HPE engine has a host of modifications to the motor including new piston too and new transmission parts. That's why it produces much more power than the old motor. It's what I expected Piaggio to do and posted as much probably 18 or so months ago when an interesting thread developed on here. I even said the power output would be in the region of 24ps with a substantial boost to torque. It's not rocket science and it keeps the motor fresh for years to come. No need to develop a completely new motor, just not needed. And non of this is rocket science or a "miracle".

My Vespa GTS300 is capable of 117mpg in the WMTC test. But of course, no one expects to get that in real life. Best I've had so far is 94mpg (uk gal) and I'm really pleased with that. I average between 87-89mpg though in everyday riding. Other folks will get more or less than that figure because we all use our bikes differently and have different ride techniques and have different road and traffic conditions. So the WMTC figure is purely a guide figure for the WMTC conditons of test so the bike can be compared with other bikes in the same WMTC conditions. Just saying...
A new piston too? Gee golly willikers. That was probably half the 2018 R and D budget right there.
Now, just for kicks, let's compare the engine in the Yamaha X-max to the one it replaced. New piston? yes. New head? yes again. New everything else? believe it or not, also yes. How many parts are interchangeable with the motor it replaced? Many of the bolts.
The idea of "Exactly how this works," is why the Japanese companies were able to put so many car and motorcycle companies in places where this is "Exactly how this works," out of business. As far as bringing the Forza into the mix, here in the US, it produces significantly less horsepower than the new 300 Hype engine is alleged to.
I suspect that when push comes to shove, the HYPE motor will compare more to the pre-euro4 Quasar engine than to anything else in the 250-300 class that they won't ship to your house in a box. It will seem incredibly fast to people who already considered the 300 plenty fast. And because Piaggio put just as much R and D into it as they did ESS, it will turn out to be just as successful. It will be interesting to see if it has the same problems as the Beverly 350 engine, or if they've managed to engineer a completely different set of bad ideas.
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Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:38 am quote
...and what they say, copied from the Vespa web pages:

"With respect to the previous version, maximum power comes in at 17.5 kW (23.8 HP) at 8250 rpm, which translates into a 12% increase, while maximum torque, equating to 26 Nm at 5250 rpm, has been boosted by 18%. Improvements that are paired with a significant reduction in consumption, with mileage increasing from 29.4 km/l to 31 km/l in the WMTC cycle."

Here's the magic word WMTC, World Motorcycle Test Cycle = if they are cheating, at least they do it according to the rules.

Just to add, that althought the % figures are nice, one hp is stil just one hp etc...GTS 300 is quite a heavy bike for these hp numbers.

Piaggios comments about the changes:

"The adoption of a new head and a piston with redesigned architecture results in a highly efficient combustion chamber, which also benefits from valves and ducts of increased diameter inside the head. The single camshaft distribution system with roller tappets gains a camshaft with optimised timing and valve lift speeds. The introduction of a new high pressure multi-jet injector also helps to improve combustion. Lastly, a more generous intake line improves the torque delivered at low revs and ensures an exceptionally smooth ride at any speed. The new iridium ignition spark-plug ensures greater durability.
The transmission has also been dramatically redesigned: the CVT boasts a new belt, new geometry and new materials, all enveloped by a new cover coated with sound-absorbent material, to reduce mechanical noise, also aided by a new, more rigid clutch drum.
The engine is controlled by a latest-generation Magneti Marelli MIUG4 ECU, already compatible with the future Euro 5 standard."

...so I'll have to go with Stromrider here, they've tweaked the engine & transmission pretty thoroughly - kind of sounds on par with the gains reported?

Don't know how the Vespa warranties work in US, but around here we get the Piaggio standard + the importer (we have only one official) throws in an extra year with the same coverage - this is a nice factor for buying a new one. [/i]
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Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:35 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
Motovista, splendid chap that you are, you don't appear to know how engine development works. "Slapping a new head on an old engine and changing the injector" is exactly how this works. But with much more stuff done than that. It has to have new ecu software for fuelling and ignition, different breathing capabilities, a new catalytic converter (why the silencer is different style), throttle body most likely and lots of other mods. The HPE engine has a host of modifications to the motor including new piston too and new transmission parts. That's why it produces much more power than the old motor. It's what I expected Piaggio to do and posted as much probably 18 or so months ago when an interesting thread developed on here. I even said the power output would be in the region of 24ps with a substantial boost to torque. It's not rocket science and it keeps the motor fresh for years to come. No need to develop a completely new motor, just not needed. And non of this is rocket science or a "miracle".

My Vespa GTS300 is capable of 117mpg in the WMTC test. But of course, no one expects to get that in real life. Best I've had so far is 94mpg (uk gal) and I'm really pleased with that. I average between 87-89mpg though in everyday riding. Other folks will get more or less than that figure because we all use our bikes differently and have different ride techniques and have different road and traffic conditions. So the WMTC figure is purely a guide figure for the WMTC conditons of test so the bike can be compared with other bikes in the same WMTC conditions. Just saying...
A new piston too? Gee golly willikers. That was probably half the 2018 R and D budget right there.
Now, just for kicks, let's compare the engine in the Yamaha X-max to the one it replaced. New piston? yes. New head? yes again. New everything else? believe it or not, also yes. How many parts are interchangeable with the motor it replaced? Many of the bolts.
The idea of "Exactly how this works," is why the Japanese companies were able to put so many car and motorcycle companies in places where this is "Exactly how this works," out of business. As far as bringing the Forza into the mix, here in the US, it produces significantly less horsepower than the new 300 Hype engine is alleged to.
I suspect that when push comes to shove, the HYPE motor will compare more to the pre-euro4 Quasar engine than to anything else in the 250-300 class that they won't ship to your house in a box. It will seem incredibly fast to people who already considered the 300 plenty fast. And because Piaggio put just as much R and D into it as they did ESS, it will turn out to be just as successful. It will be interesting to see if it has the same problems as the Beverly 350 engine, or if they've managed to engineer a completely different set of bad ideas.
As you mention it Motovista, the Japanese develop their engines in just the same way. I've even worked on major Japanese engine projects for cars and bikes doing just that. It's how everyone works! This is how engine designs continually evolves until you cannot develop that engine anymore to economically and reliably meet required performance levels or pending legislation. It looks to me at the moment as though Piaggio has done a pretty good job. From factory worker reports it sounds like the new engine is going to offer significantly improved performance. And remember, the important thing here is the big increase in torque at lower revs. That's a major factor in how you get more mpg. The new engine is actually 2.6hp more than the current Euro 4 engine at 23.8hp. The current Euro 4 bikes put out 21.2hp. Euro 3 bikes like mine are 22hp.

The Xmax needed a rework for whatever reason. It could be that the old motor wouldn't easily meet Euro5 regs withuot extensive development works making it more economical to re-engineer the whole engine. OR it could be for other reasons relating to future planning of the range of Xmax scooters. Or lots of other reasons. You arguement doesn't hold any water. The Quasar engine has plenty of life left in it yet so that's why it's been developed further. It's certainly capable of carrying this extra power without affecting mechanical reliability in my opinion. It carries the 282 kits without issues and that puts even more stress on the engines.

I guess you are just having another bad day where you feel you have to slam down on Piaggio again!
Molto Verboso
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 1633
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere in the engineering dept, Britishland, nr Urop
Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:56 am quote
RR, that's an extra 2.6hp for the HPE engine over the current Euro4 motor which is 21.2hp. The best bit though is the GTS with the HPE engine is only just over 159kg's, much lighter than the competition, and the Forza for example. So it's going to be a pretty close call as to which one is quickest. I wouldn't be surprised if the GTS is faster to 60mph but slower on top speed. Can't wait to try one!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 5979
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:29 am quote
[quote="Motovista"]
Stromrider wrote:
It will be interesting to see if it has the same problems as the Beverly 350 engine, or if they've managed to engineer a completely different set of bad ideas.
What BV 350 engine problem? Read every BV 350 and not one has blown up that I remember.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Typhoon 125
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 10189
Location: Oregon City, OR
Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:48 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Motovista wrote:
It will be interesting to see if it has the same problems as the Beverly 350 engine, or if they've managed to engineer a completely different set of bad ideas.
What BV 350 engine problem? Read every BV 350 and not one has blown up that I remember.
Fixed it for you. And I'm with you on this. What is wrong with the BV350 engine? It has impressed the socks off of me.
Molto Verboso
2016 Vespa GTS300ie abs/asr/ess Settantesimo '70'
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 1633
Location: Not really sure but I think somewhere in the engineering dept, Britishland, nr Urop
Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:59 am quote
Thanks Dooglas, I'm with you guys. There are no actual fundamental problems with the BV350, only usually bad maintenance that leads to problems. But that's the same for any bike.
Ossessionato
2017 Vespa GTV 300, 2017 BMW C650GT
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 2992
Location: Downtown Toronto
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:24 am quote
Great info in here. I have the Malossi kit and have to say I am very happy with it. I feel to get the most out of it you also need a high perforce exhaust and a J. Costa variator helps as well.

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