{NSR} E15 fuel VS regular E10 gas
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Ossessionato
1979 P200e
Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Posts: 2230
Location: West of Boston
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:15 pm quote
This is not, NOT, NOT scooter related. I'm not planning on putting this stuff into my scooter...

I've recently spent some time in Pennsylvania, and I notice whenever I go to Sheetz, they have a pump marked E15, with a warning not to put it into Pre 2001 vehicles.

Their regular gas is 87 octane, and up to 10% ethanol, which would make it E10. Unless you're using pure gas, most of us have been using this stuff in the USA for years now.

But E15 is new to me. It's not flex fuel... which is anything up to E85. But last time I filled up, I got a tank of E15, 88 octane. It's a few pennies cheaper than the E10.

My car is either a 2007 Honda Element or 2006 Toyota Camry, both with 130k+ miles on them.

The cars seem to run fine, no really big deal, but technically what is the advantage between E15 and E10? Other than the "uh, 5% more alcohol".
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 5979
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:46 pm quote
No advantage, there is a con, worse gas mileage.
Oh, and more alcohol to absorb water.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Typhoon 125
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:00 pm quote
The only advantage I see is that you didn't have to make that 15% out of fracked oil, but I'm not sure making it out of corn or soybeans is really any advantage.
Ossessionato
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:43 pm quote
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
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Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:21 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
And it is subsidized by $1 for every gal, even what is Exported gets a $1 tax credit.
That is the only reason it is even profitable, other wise it would be loose money on every gal produced.
Ossessionato
LX190
Joined: 12 Oct 2007
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Location: New Zealand
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:28 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
It would mean HFCS would be cheaper and we'd all be fatter.
And hence need more powerful scooters.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 5979
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:36 am quote
znomit wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
It would mean HFCS would be cheaper and we'd all be fatter.
And hence need more powerful scooters.
Ice cream was on sale last week, buy 1 get one free. That doesn't mean I ate more ice cream.
This is your logic, there is more and it is cheaper so I will eat it.
Molto Verboso
2014 Commuter BV350(34,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(9,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(28,000)
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Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:18 am quote
As other threads have pointed out, ethanol offers higher octane at a lower cost. That would be the only advantage I can think of.
Molto Verboso
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Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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Location: E. KY
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:50 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
znomit wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
It would mean HFCS would be cheaper and we'd all be fatter.
And hence need more powerful scooters.
Ice cream was on sale last week, buy 1 get one free. That doesn't mean I ate more ice cream.
This is your logic, there is more and it is cheaper so I will eat it.
If we really get the corn gas topic going it gets real political real fast! The economics of ehtanol sick just as much now as they did when it came about after the "Arab Oil Crisis" compliments of our true friends the Arabian bunch.
My 2015 Ford F-150 if run on flex fuel actually costs more tio run than on the more expensive E10, 87 fuel. I have never understood how it is justified in the retail fuel marketplace? How many people buy it and for what reasons?

On Ice cream: I am nearly as addicted to the stuff as I am gasoline, not quite as much but close! The best store brand is for me the same one as our dearly departed #41 HWB-Blue Bell. They do however, have some flavors that need some serious work to be as good as the best flavors!
I was working a HS Career day (tech school counselor) and had a table set up, etc.. In talking to a few reps from the world of work I got up a conversation with an older guy(like me) who said he was a "butter fat salesman". In asking him WTH is that?, he said the challenge in the dairy industry is to find ways to sell all that fat they pull out of milk back to the same people who were trying to avoid it in their low fat liquid milk. I'd never though of it that way until that moment.
The best ice cream- it's homemade, hands down! Vanilla, Brown Bread and Peach along with buttermilk pineapple sherbert are my faves in that world.
Tip of the day: This is guaranteed to be great or I'll buy.
The best store bought hand dipped frozen stuff is bought in Topeka, KS @
G's Frozen Custard at the old A & W place 1301 6th street. It is NOT that crap they sell in St Louis, MO that reminds me of cold cake batter or pudding! It looks like and "licks like" real ice cream. Gotta wait until the Christmas trees are gone and spring comes to get some. Yes, they do have Brown Bread-not easily found in the ice cream world these days of sprinkles and a cone that cost a kings ransom. At G's you get yer moneys worth! Also comes in handpacked pts & qts.. Seriously good stuff.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 5979
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:51 am quote
breaknwind wrote:
As other threads have pointed out, ethanol offers higher octane at a lower cost. That would be the only advantage I can think of.
Less BTU though and that is where the power comes from, not the Octane.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 5979
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:00 am quote
Kantuckid wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
znomit wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
It would mean HFCS would be cheaper and we'd all be fatter.
And hence need more powerful scooters.
Ice cream was on sale last week, buy 1 get one free. That doesn't mean I ate more ice cream.
This is your logic, there is more and it is cheaper so I will eat it.
If we really get the corn gas topic going it gets real political real fast! The economics of ehtanol sick just as much now as they did when it came about after the "Arab Oil Crisis" compliments of our true friends the Arabian bunch.
My 2015 Ford F-150 if run on flex fuel actually costs more tio run than on the more expensive E10, 87 fuel. I have never understood how it is justified in the retail fuel marketplace? How many people buy it and for what reasons?

On Ice cream: I am nearly as addicted to the stuff as I am gasoline, not quite as much but close! The best store brand is for me the same one as our dearly departed #41 HWB-Blue Bell. They do however, have some flavors that need some serious work to be as good as the best flavors!
I was working a HS Career day (tech school counselor) and had a table set up, etc.. In talking to a few reps from the world of work I got up a conversation with an older guy(like me) who said he was a "butter fat salesman". In asking him WTH is that?, he said the challenge in the dairy industry is to find ways to sell all that fat they pull out of milk back to the same people who were trying to avoid it in their low fat liquid milk. I'd never though of it that way until that moment.
The best ice cream- it's homemade, hands down! Vanilla, Brown Bread and Peach along with buttermilk pineapple sherbert are my faves in that world.
Tip of the day: This is guaranteed to be great or I'll buy.
The best store bought hand dipped frozen stuff is bought in Topeka, KS @
G's Frozen Custard at the old A & W place 1301 6th street. It is NOT that crap they sell in St Louis, MO that reminds me of cold cake batter or pudding! It looks like and "licks like" real ice cream. Gotta wait until the Christmas trees are gone and spring comes to get some. Yes, they do have Brown Bread-not easily found in the ice cream world these days of sprinkles and a cone that cost a kings ransom. At G's you get yer moneys worth! Also comes in handpacked pts & qts.. Seriously good stuff.
I am an Ice Cream aficionado and IMHO as far as Nationally available, Hersey's Ice Cream makes the best Ice Cream on the market. But not available in most stores.
Look for a Hersey's Shake Shop, Convenience store or gas station.

Blue Bell is good. Wife loves there cones. One of the few with Real Ice Cream.
Molto Verboso
2014 Commuter BV350(34,000)/2015 Scoot Life BV350(9,000)/2010 El Diablito SH150i(28,000)
Joined: 27 Dec 2013
Posts: 1923
Location: Orange Park Florida
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:07 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
breaknwind wrote:
As other threads have pointed out, ethanol offers higher octane at a lower cost. That would be the only advantage I can think of.
Less BTU though and that is where the power comes from, not the Octane.
That is why I run non-ethanol in the Honda. If I could find non-ethanol with higher octane, I'd run it in the BV's.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 7536
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:58 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
znomit wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Personally I wonder how much land would be freed up if we stopped using food for fuel, or food for CAFOs.
It would mean HFCS would be cheaper and we'd all be fatter.
And hence need more powerful scooters.
Ice cream was on sale last week, buy 1 get one free. That doesn't mean I ate more ice cream.
This is your logic, there is more and it is cheaper so I will eat it.
Kind of sums up American consumerism, doesn't it?

And fortunately HFCS is already cheap, so we can easily keep our body composition supremacy.
Molto Verboso
2018 Vespa GTS 300 ABS- Bianco
Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1398
Location: E. KY
Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:18 am quote
Does "body supremacy" mean thing same thing as "body fat"?
Hooked
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 155
Location: Nebraska
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:36 am quote
Politics only
The ethanol lobby is seeing a sinking market, as consumers are figuring out that ethanol from corn is a scam. It doesn't replace oil, it converts oil to ethanol. If you include the oil burned (in diesels, usually) to produce/transport the corn used to produce the ethanol, the total pollution is much higher, not lower. Gasoline producers would rather eliminate ethanol, as it adds to their costs, but there is a government mandate to use a certain amount of 'renewable' fuel, so they don't have a choice. The push for E15 is an effort to shore up the ethanol market, and has no other value. The best thing that can be said for ethanol is that it probably won't cause a problem in a modern car.

I go out of my way to buy gasoline without ethanol, and use ethanol-free in all my bikes, cars, and small engines. Quite a number of local stations have big signs for "Ethanol-free gas" so I can only assume the demand for such is increasing.

Obviously, I live in corn country. The farmers are crying because they want to grow unlimited amounts of corn, then have the government find a use for it. Ethanol from corn has been a major demand for their excess production. And they don't want to limit production to meet real market needs.

FWIW, if the lab-grown meat thing works out, the farmers will be in deep trouble.

An engine designed to run on pure ethanol (or methanol, more common as a racing fuel) can run much higher compression ratios (better octane), and have much higher power levels, as the fuel can also be used to cool the engine. But an engine designed to run on gas or alcohol can't take advantage of it. And pure alcohol has starting problems in cold weather (as now), vapor-lock issues in hot weather (or high altitude), possible corrosion or deterioration of fuel system parts, and absorbing moisture in humid climates.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 7536
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:12 am quote
Re: Politics only
Jimding wrote:
The ethanol lobby is seeing a sinking market, as consumers are figuring out that ethanol from corn is a scam. It doesn't replace oil, it converts oil to ethanol. If you include the oil burned (in diesels, usually) to produce/transport the corn used to produce the ethanol, the total pollution is much higher, not lower. Gasoline producers would rather eliminate ethanol, as it adds to their costs, but there is a government mandate to use a certain amount of 'renewable' fuel, so they don't have a choice. The push for E15 is an effort to shore up the ethanol market, and has no other value. The best thing that can be said for ethanol is that it probably won't cause a problem in a modern car.

I go out of my way to buy gasoline without ethanol, and use ethanol-free in all my bikes, cars, and small engines. Quite a number of local stations have big signs for "Ethanol-free gas" so I can only assume the demand for such is increasing.

Obviously, I live in corn country. The farmers are crying because they want to grow unlimited amounts of corn, then have the government find a use for it. Ethanol from corn has been a major demand for their excess production. And they don't want to limit production to meet real market needs.

FWIW, if the lab-grown meat thing works out, the farmers will be in deep trouble.

An engine designed to run on pure ethanol (or methanol, more common as a racing fuel) can run much higher compression ratios (better octane), and have much higher power levels, as the fuel can also be used to cool the engine. But an engine designed to run on gas or alcohol can't take advantage of it. And pure alcohol has starting problems in cold weather (as now), vapor-lock issues in hot weather (or high altitude), possible corrosion or deterioration of fuel system parts, and absorbing moisture in humid climates.
Man, living in corn country you've got to keep a low profile or you'll be run out of town!

Kind of like me taking on the recommendation to drink 3 glasses of milk everyday. I call bullshit, but in Dairy World nobody's listening.

BTW, you're spot on with the corn. From what I'd heard some years back, it's ONLY the government subsidy that makes the current level of corn production viable in the first place. Then add the ethanol nonsense on top of it....
Molto Verboso
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Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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Location: E. KY
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:43 am quote
Not to criticize anyone, but I wrote a paper on the ethanol stupidity in 1973 when I went back to college @ age 30...
It's an old storyline. Now soybeans are the new talking point for awhile.
Lab meat- yuk.

My FIL said they (his whole family worked the oil/gas fields) made their own, as in homemade, gasoline years ago back up a KY holler.
Ossessionato
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Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:11 pm quote
Ethanol gas now available just down the street for $1.49/gallon.
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