Autonomous Cars N/S/R
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Grumpy Biker
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:04 am quote
Bill Dog wrote:
If all the cars are talking to each other won't they all take the same detour ?

Bill x
No. The software will determine the best detour to take based on the final destination, the current traffic load of each detour, etc. When it gets to the point where your car knows what is happing along your entire route, it can make a decision to change the route very early on before it even gets to congested areas. For my commute, for example, there are at least 5 or 6 routes home that have very similar distance and time requirements. If the car knows before even leaving the parking lot that 2 of those routes have heavy loading, it can choose one of the other routes.

-Craig
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:26 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
johnymoore wrote:
I don't see what problem they solve in congested cities.

I will filter past you suckers sat in your soleless vehicles on my two-wheeled love machine
Then you're not understanding the full advantage of autonomous cars. The lights will know which way traffic is heaviest from and time the lights to accommodate. You won't be sitting at lights that are red for 5 minutes with no cars going through the intersections.
I think you are misunderstanding the layouts of many cities based on medieval designs.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:55 am quote
Traffic lights need to be smarter NOW, not to mention when we're in a more automated world. So much time is lost due to waiting for a green light with no or light traffic.
In much of North America, we have a great opportunity to improve traffic flow with roundabouts. These things really work when properly planned and built. All we need for them is trained drivers. That's another subject...
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:18 am quote
Re: Muff
Bill Dog wrote:
If all the cars are talking to each other won't they all take the same detour ?

Bill x
Highway management system should prevent that. System would see route getting full and add more detours as needed.
Justy like a GPS does
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:20 am quote
shoprat75 wrote:
Charlotte Motor speedway has changed format to Roval (road and oval) to make it more entertaining.
Roval is only once a year, not every NASCAR race at Charlotte.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:21 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
johnymoore wrote:
I don't see what problem they solve in congested cities.

I will filter past you suckers sat in your soleless vehicles on my two-wheeled love machine
Then you're not understanding the full advantage of autonomous cars. The lights will know which way traffic is heaviest from and time the lights to accommodate. You won't be sitting at lights that are red for 5 minutes with no cars going through the intersections.
I call bullshit. That technology has been around for years -- including in my hometown of Annapolis, MD. It hasn't kept people with "influence" from subverting the system.

Here in Annapolis, the US Navy calls the shots. For example, the light at Gate 8 of the US Naval Academy is dynamically timed to allow all the Navy bigshots to escape the academy grounds very efficiently at evening rush hour, while the much, much heavier traffic on Rt. 450 is held up interminably. The backups are epic... stretching back through West Annapolis and creating utter gridlock. This has been going on for years, but when public outcry boils over, the highway administration insists that the light is timed optimally and that the backups are caused by the bridge over the Severn River a half mile down the road. They refrain from explaining why there is never any backup at the bridge, which does not restrict traffic in any way.

Technology is never foolproof, and even when it is nearly so there always will be fools to subvert it.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:26 am quote
Silver Streak wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
johnymoore wrote:
I don't see what problem they solve in congested cities.

I will filter past you suckers sat in your soleless vehicles on my two-wheeled love machine
Then you're not understanding the full advantage of autonomous cars. The lights will know which way traffic is heaviest from and time the lights to accommodate. You won't be sitting at lights that are red for 5 minutes with no cars going through the intersections.
I call bullshit. That technology has been around for years -- including in my hometown of Annapolis, MD. It hasn't kept people with "influence" from subverting the system.

Here in Annapolis, the US Navy calls the shots. For example, the light at Gate 8 of the US Naval Academy is dynamically timed to allow all the Navy bigshots to escape the academy grounds very efficiently at evening rush hour, while the much, much heavier traffic on Rt. 450 is held up interminably. The backups are epic... stretching back through West Annapolis and creating utter gridlock. This has been going on for years, but when public outcry boils over, the highway administration insists that the light is timed optimally and that the backups are caused by the bridge over the Severn River a half mile down the road. They refrain from explaining why there is never any backup at the bridge, which does not restrict traffic in any way.

Technology is never foolproof, and even when it is nearly so there always will be fools to subvert it.
The highway will work using something like a router on the internet, routing IP traffic. It will just be cars instead of IP addresses from computers.
You just have to hope you don't become a digaurded bit
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Molto Verboso
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:58 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Ok, want about the people that have Classic cars that want to drive them? Mecum Auction just sold over 100 Million Dollars worth of cars in Kissimmee Fl in the past week Highest earning Auction in their history.
Don't think for a minute that those 100 Million dollars of cars are going to be driven any distances. They're going into a garage or pod until their price goes up another 30K.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:07 pm quote
Ask
Actually, what's going to happen to owners Insurance ?

Whose responsibility will it be ? The manufacturer or the people who wrote the software ?

Discuss.

Bill
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:01 pm quote
Re: Ask
Bill Dog wrote:
Actually, what's going to happen to owners Insurance ?

Whose responsibility will it be ? The manufacturer or the people who wrote the software ?

Discuss.

Bill
Great question! The lawyers will have a field day with this. Is it the owner of the vehicle that "summons" the car into the driveway and told it to take it to Costco? Will it be the manufacturer of said car? Will it indeed be the software engineer? How about the infrastructure folks giving the car bad info?

I really thought (hoped) that this idiotic idea of self driving cars would fade but I think it is here. The younger folks now have - as a whole- no desire to drive. I really can't believe this is happening in my lifetime. My nephews had to be pushed into getting their licenses to help with transporting siblings. I couldn't wait to turn 16 to get my license...

"Times they are a changin"... for the worst in this case IMHO.

Bob
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:15 pm quote
I'd be quite happy to let a car drive me somewhere. I ride bikes because I enjoy riding them and it makes my commute quite enjoyable. I don't enjoy driving on the roads here in the UK because there's either too much traffic or it's just miles of mindless motorway. Sure, there a pretty roads all over the place but they're not the roads I'm usually driving on. I'd be quite happy doing work or reading a book or just taking a sleep rather than sitting there staring at the vehicle ahead.
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Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:10 pm quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Actually, what's going to happen to owners Insurance ?
It will drop dramatically (once the evidence is there that they are cheaper, sorry I meant safer ) and there will be a rush to buy them. Because people will happily pay an extra $10k for a car if they can brag at the pub they are saving $200 on their insurance.

Plus (and probably most importantly) it can drive them home from the pub whilst drunk.
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:26 am quote
Re: Ask
Bill Dog wrote:
Actually, what's going to happen to owners Insurance ?

Whose responsibility will it be ? The manufacturer or the people who wrote the software ?

Discuss.

Bill
I imagine it will be no different than today. Whoever owns the vehicle will be responsible for the insurance needed to operate it on that state's roadways. If there's a manufacturing defect, including software, the government can force a fix, and owners can sue the manufacturer.
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:01 am quote
i'm all for them...as was said if you sit in traffic every day that's not driving, that's sitting...if there is a car that will do the moving in traffic so i can do other things great...at that point it would be no different than sitting on a bus or taking the train...you become a passenger...if all the cars on the road were autonomous it should in theory lessen accidents/traffic and make the commute smoother, in theory...even if all the cars had the sensors that are installed in tesla cars that would correct your driving or brake if needed that should make the roads safer...now while the car is moving (i.e. not in traffic) i think i would want to be driving it myself with some autonomous controls that are able to be overridden or at least be ready to drive it if needed...you're relying on a computer/electronics to work correctly for every second that you're driving...has your computer ever frozen?...yea that could equal a crash in this case, pun intended

i'd actually be more interested in that hyperloop idea elon musk is working on...if overall it's cheaper and faster than running a car every day and there was an easy/ way to get from the stations to home/work with maybe an autonomous car sharing company i'm in
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:04 am quote
I'm thinking that the only vehicles I'll want to own are the ones I want to DRIVE. I'll schedule a vehicle to take me to appointments, etc. I'll probably have an opportunity to share the ride for a reduced price and longer commute. I DO however see that unless we have good regulations on these vehicles that companies will take shortcuts on maintenance and perhaps there will be at least two tiers of companies involved: Cheap and not top notch and top notch. Another way to separate the haves from have nots. Maybe I'm pipe dreaming here a bit. I hope there will only be good and well maintained vehicles.
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:18 am quote
SCTLVR wrote:
I'm thinking that the only vehicles I'll want to own are the ones I want to DRIVE. I'll schedule a vehicle to take me to appointments, etc.
Agree. If you look at any city these days you see a place that's designed for cars not people. Cars cost a lot of money to own but we tend to only use them for a short while each day, if at all. Where we live (at least outside the US) tends to be ram packed with cars. Here in London they've been having a bit of a campaign about air quality - mostly generated from cars all stuck in traffic and going nowhere. A future where you just press you're Uber button (or similar) and an electric vehicle appears in a few minutes, maybe shared, to take you to your destination would be a hell of an improvement over owning a car.

Still not as nice as jumping on the bike though.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:30 am quote
+1 for jumping on the bike and splitting lanes!
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:15 am quote
This thread is gettin' good.

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:37 pm quote
Cars are going the way of the aircraft...

“Boeing attributes 80 percent of commercial airline crashes to human error.” Granted, this came out before the Lion Air Crash, I don’t know if they changed their mind a little...


Take the human out of the equation and make it safer...http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_2_07/article_03_2.html
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:51 pm quote
Re: Ask
Bill Dog wrote:
Actually, what's going to happen to owners Insurance ?

Whose responsibility will it be ? The manufacturer or the people who wrote the software ?

Discuss.

Bill
Insurance will be the responsibility of the driver, because the manufacturers, software companies, and insurers have the lobbying clout to make it so.
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:56 pm quote
howdy, i'm going to take my usual obstinate position.
i've taken every safe driving system course out there in the last 3 million miles of safe driving. in every one of them there was some instruction that had i done it would have killed me. those same experts would be the ones programming the software the will do the if-then-else and then kill me with the wrong decision. the common wisdom is stupid and i don't want it driving my car or motorcycle or 60 ton truck or the plane i'm traveling in 8 miles above the solid ground.
carry on
ken
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Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:38 pm quote
Place
I'll rephrase the question.

If the car isn't being driven by you but by the software surely it's the company that built it that should be covered by the policy not you.

You're exonerated from responsibility so how would third party cover work ?

Discuss.

Bill x
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:21 am quote
Re: Place
Bill Dog wrote:
I'll rephrase the question.

If the car isn't being driven by you but by the software surely it's the company that built it that should be covered by the policy not you.

You're exonerated from responsibility so how would third party cover work ?

Discuss.

Bill x
we all know that's not going to fly...you are going to still be in the drivers seat and have the ability to override the autonomous system...they will probably have sensors on the steering wheel, pedals, shifter, directionals, horn, etc to know when/how you are operating the vehicle and that data will be logged...there are sensors that pick up the vehicles around you...there will be sensors that pick up accidents...so you can't come after the car company if you get in an accident they will already have all the evidence

i think the real issue is going to be maintenance and inclement weather...people don't maintain cars now...so now you have an autonomous car and haven't changed the tires or brakes and you're driving in the snow...will the computer know what to do better than you do?...or will there be sensors in those as well that only a certified mechanic can reset so they can say oh you didn't maintain the car we are free from liability?

now if we get to the point where we are sitting in the back seat, have no actual override controls or are ride sharing autonomous vehicles that's where i would agree with you...liability is on the car company
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:05 am quote
Our automobiles already have most of the control information you're noting above. Throttle angle, brake pressure, steering angle, road speed, cornering forces, etc. It's stored in a FIFO memory.
As for responsibility for autonomous vehicles used to carry the public to destinations, I want to have the transit vehicle arrive with all the liability issues covered by the transit company. I in no way am liable for maintenance, driving decisions, etc. Government regulations and good corporate management is what this new market needs from the start. I do not trust individual companies to regulate themselves. We have too many banks/insurance companies/automobile companies/chemical producers/energy companies/etc. that have failed self-regulation to consider open regulation a viable alternative.
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:55 pm quote
Too much credit
I think you give human drivers too much credit. Around here, there are routinely half-a-dozen wrecks, morning and evening, on the Interstate. If it snows or rains, double or triple that. On surface streets, when it rains or snows, police quit taking property-damage-accident calls.

Can't wait for autonomous cars. Especially for long road trips. Set the nav, and sit back and relax.

For those who think they don't want them, imagine having a car service. You let them know when to pick you up, and where to drop you off. No commuter headaches, no parking headaches. No ownership or maintenance headaches. Sit back, watch the news, a movie, read a book, whatever.

Uber'ed for the first time when we visited Vegas. Greatest thing ever. Autonomous cars will delete the driver, offer all the other advantages.

I think people that want to drive their own cars will need a 'transponder' so the other cars and the traffic control computer know where they are and what they are doing. If you want to mingle in heavy traffic, it will be required. Law enforcement will have access to your data, so you will behave. Fortunately lots of deserted two-lane here where you'll be free.

Saw a neat adaptation for autonomous cars. They used a ground-penetrating radar to map sub-surface details, so the car has a backup for navigation. Should make precise guidance much easier, and self-contained, rather than needing GPS or other extrenal guidance.
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:08 pm quote
It will be really cool when some bad actors get into these vehicles once there are a ton of them and take over the computers.... Can you imagine 5 million of these things going full throttle in every direction? Don't think that can happen??? We are taking humans out of living life folks... not much good will come from that.

We have to really think what is IMPORTANT to each and every one of us. Life is very short in the big picture- live it!!

Bob
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:15 pm quote
I'm more concerned for when 'full AI' is achieved, not the partial AI we have now. Prof. Stephen Hawking's warning that when full AI is achieved, that could threaten humanity's existence, for robots and machines would then be able to redesign themselves on the fly and we won't be able to keep up.
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:17 pm quote
[quote="BVBob"]It will be really cool when some bad actors get into these vehicles once there are a ton of them and take over the computers.... Can you imagine 5 million of these things going full throttle in every direction? Don't think that can happen??? We are taking humans out of living life folks... not much good will come from that.

We have to really think what is IMPORTANT to each and every one of us. Life is very short in the big picture- live it!!

Bob[/quote
It's kind of like global warming, it's already to late. The "BOTS", have taken over and they don't need us humans.
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:20 pm quote
Plus
These days most dealerships will pick up, service, valet and return your car so this luxury won't just be for autonomous cars.

I honestly fear the introduction of them because as a man I fear that one of the few pleasures that I have - which is to have control of a vehicle and drive it where I want, how I want, will be taken away......for my own safety.

I guess that I don't want to be emasculated anymore than I already am.

I agree with you that once the car has control of the "drive" the responsibility lays with the manufacturer of the vehicle and the software running it because once the auto button is pressed I'm no longer responsible.

Bill x
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:59 pm quote
This has become a fun discussion! From autonomous cars to AI, dystopia and back to wanting freedom and loss of masculinity!
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:52 pm quote
When I visit this thread, I think of this

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCUYMM6pABw"
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:22 pm quote
breaknwind wrote:
When I visit this thread, I think of this

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCUYMM6pABw"
Perfect.

I believe the headlong rush to "autonomous" vehicles (a terrible misnomer for what are in fact "networked" vehicles) is going to be rife with more than a few serious backfires which will have serious economic repercussions, starting with that tenuous thing called "security." And I haven't even touched on the matter of infrastructure, something a good part of the US seems only recently to have become somewhat cognizant of. We've ignored our current network of road and rail transport, with incredibly chaotic results. Talk to me about how AI and machine learning (both Good Things, up to a point) is going to surmount these not-terribly-simple issues in a cakewalk, and you'll owe me the cost of replacing my now-destroyed bullshit detector.
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Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:39 pm quote
Point37 wrote:
now if we get to the point where we are sitting in the back seat, have no actual override controls or are ride sharing autonomous vehicles
Already have this. It is called a bus !!
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Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:13 am quote
I also saw an episode of Elementary that showed murder by hacking into a current model vehicle's computer. Don't know how true this can be
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Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:43 am quote
I wouldn't fret too much over security. What are they going to do, kidnap you? I recall 60 Minutes doing a report a couple years ago how we all are vulnerable to hackers taking over control of our cars. Has anyone been a victim?
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Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:55 am quote
Re: Too much credit
Jimding wrote:
I think people that want to drive their own cars will need a 'transponder' so the other cars and the traffic control computer know where they are and what they are doing. If you want to mingle in heavy traffic, it will be required. Law enforcement will have access to your data, so you will behave. Fortunately lots of deserted two-lane here where you'll be free.
so police will be able to issue tickets based on your data or maybe they are auto-generated based on your data...no one is going to like that...cause basically commute times will be going up if everyone's autonomous vehicle has to drive the speed limit or get an automatic ticket...speed limit on the highway is 65 here which no one drives during commuting times...i drive 80 everyday where it's safe (i.e. not much traffic/congestion)...so it will take me ~33% longer to get to work if i was to drive 65...that isn't going to be favorable to most people
Vintage1 wrote:
I'm more concerned for when 'full AI' is achieved, not the partial AI we have now. Prof. Stephen Hawking's warning that when full AI is achieved, that could threaten humanity's existence, for robots and machines would then be able to redesign themselves on the fly and we won't be able to keep up.
^^^yup...they need to slow the development of AI or just stop...the speed at which AI will be able to process/learn/build will be so fast that AI will decide our fate...humans could end up as slaves, be exterminated or at best turn into some type of cyborg depending on how AI evaluates us
waspmike wrote:
Point37 wrote:
now if we get to the point where we are sitting in the back seat, have no actual override controls or are ride sharing autonomous vehicles
Already have this. It is called a bus !!
yea...except with a bus you don't go from your house to your garage hop in and it takes you exactly where you want to go by yourself and park and its right where you parked it when you are ready to leave...so yea really nothing like a bus
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Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:47 am quote
Re: Too much credit
Point37 wrote:
yea...except with a bus you don't go from your house to your garage hop in and it takes you exactly where you want to go by yourself and park and its right where you parked it when you are ready to leave...so yea really nothing like a bus
I want to be dropped exactly where I want to go (within reason). The vehicle can sort out parking for itself. I think to be a real revolution though we need to forget about personal ownership of these vehicles otherwise there's not much of an advantage over the current crazy situation of having millions of vehicles parked up all day. The vehicle shouldn't wait in a parking lot doing nothing, instead it should just be a taxi that works for the city. Obviously there should be different levels of vehicle so more folk would be inclined to take one.
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Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:59 am quote
Re: Too much credit
robinm wrote:
Point37 wrote:
yea...except with a bus you don't go from your house to your garage hop in and it takes you exactly where you want to go by yourself and park and its right where you parked it when you are ready to leave...so yea really nothing like a bus
I want to be dropped exactly where I want to go (within reason). The vehicle can sort out parking for itself. I think to be a real revolution though we need to forget about personal ownership of these vehicles otherwise there's not much of an advantage over the current crazy situation of having millions of vehicles parked up all day. The vehicle shouldn't wait in a parking lot doing nothing, instead it should just be a taxi that works for the city. Obviously there should be different levels of vehicle so more folk would be inclined to take one.
yea that actually makes more sense...sort of like an autonomous uber...i just think of how other people treat their cars...to get into a car that smells like cigarettes with fast food wrappers and garbage all over it wouldn't make me want to use it...but i would totally use it for commuting...the only issues i see is the time having to wait for it to show up...if you have to travel somewhere during the work day quick...or if you need something that you typically keep in your car...if you need to do some quick errands...to have to wait for it to show up each time or pay for it to sit there isn't exactly efficient...if you're doing strictly to/from work it would be ideal though...i would still want my own car though on the weekends
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Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:00 am quote
I wonder what happens to the U.S. auto industry when these vehicles become the norm? It seems like fully half the ads on our TV stations are car ads. We already often hear about how a downturn in the industry can cause a recession.... To whom are they going to market their cars to, a Uber type organization?
They'll probably all look alike and have the same features. No marketing for individual tastes. Everything will look the same to a certain degree. Maybe just differences for luxury and capacity.

I guess the companies will need to diversify into different products like the coach and carriage companies had to do when the automobile came along.
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