Getting an old Vespa (P200) back on the road
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Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:37 am quote
I bought a non-running 1981 Vespa P200 with 11,000 miles from seeing pictures only. Beat up and unloved since 1983. I'm going to document here what it takes to get it back on the road, safely.

So first thing I did was put my eyes over the whole thing, from front to back. Some hokey stuff had been done to it - including that custom rack attached at the bottom of the fender, and a mirror mount that rubs the shifter?!? The key is rusted in the glove box and a chunk of legtrim is missing from the left side of the legshield. There is also surface rust starting in various places. Oh, and the tires were flat - I put air in them - we'll see if they hold air.

I gently pushed down on the kickstarter - the engine is free. Upon opening the gas I was greeted with the smell of turpentine, not decent gas.

So my next steps are as follows:

1) Quick wash so I'm not grinding in ancient grime.
2) Pull battery and replace.
3) Pull tank and drain. - when I do this I'll check the fuel tap to ensure it's working properly. BTW, it has the plastic lever type.
4) Pull carb, clean, rebuild, and reinstall. (I wonder if it's a 20/20 or 24/24?). I'll soon find out.
5) Replace fuel and oil lines.
6) Replace gear oil.
7) Remove mirror mount that is interferring with shifting.
Get some oil into key hole and get key to turn easily.
9) Maybe replace fuel tap and lever, or reinstall existing and install tank.
10) Check clearance of rotary pad to crankshaft < .010 mm
11) Reinstall carb box and carb.
12) Make sure cables at least work.
13) Kick it over and get it running!!!

We'll see how the list goes. Every list I've ever made changes about twenty times before I get the stuff checked off. OK, on with the pictures!

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This is a picture I got from the current owner.

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It just arrived at my house. UShip from Portland.

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No love since 83!

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Closeup of the edge trim missing and some sort of accident in that area. Rust is starting...

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Plastic fuel tap.

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Leg trim missing - what to do, what to do???

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Mirror interfering with shifting - whaaatttt?!??

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Surface rust starting.

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Key rusted in glovbox and surface rust starting.

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Found a helmet in the trunk.

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A set of original tools in a damp pillowcase in the glovebox. The screws that hold the glovebox on are rusted.

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Whats up with the wiring loom poking out the hole? Gotta straighten that out.



Last edited by qascooter on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1463

Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:56 pm quote
The best to hope for is to find a matching mirror bracket for the throttle side of the headset. That way it too can be notched out with a grinder.

As for the wire loom poking through the hole, itís fairly common. On some Pís it does it, others it does not. On a few of my Ps Iíve tried to straighten them out some, but it just seems to return.
Ossessionato
1979 P200e
Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Posts: 2392
Location: West of Boston
Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:36 pm quote
It's a simple three step process...

1) Make it run
2) Make it safe
3) Make it prettier

Step three is optional


I kinda like the ingenuity of the rack. Not the prettiest, but it sure does work. And if the King/queen seat is not your thing, you might recoup some $$ by selling if it's in decent condition.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3182
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:49 pm quote
Nice find! First area of contact is that lower leg shield area so its common to see damage/missing trim there. Folks lay her down and then rip off the damaged aluminum trim for some reason.

Mirror mount I have a good spare which Iíll give you. Rather than a triangle shape, its just one long flat bar which clears the shift handle.

If you cant get the key out, you can buy replacement Zadi fork/glovebox lock kits with matching keys so you only need one key.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:03 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
The best to hope for is to find a matching mirror bracket for the throttle side of the headset. That way it too can be notched out with a grinder.
Ha! - How crazy is that - who would actually let this happen?!? Well, the previous owner (or the owner before him) obviously.....
whodatschrome wrote:
As for the wire loom poking through the hole, itís fairly common. On some Pís it does it, others it does not. On a few of my Ps Iíve tried to straighten them out some, but it just seems to return.
Good to know - thanks!
Larrytsg wrote:
It's a simple three step process...

1) Make it run
2) Make it safe
3) Make it prettier

I kinda like the ingenuity of the rack. Not the prettiest, but it sure does work. And if the King/queen seat is not your thing, you might recoup some $$ by selling if it's in decent condition.
Thanks Larry - yes, the rack is...effective, and that is a simplified list for sure. As we all know the devil is in the details, and yet at the same time, the golden rule of Keep It Simple applies also. So first things first, Make it run!
MJRally wrote:
Nice find! First area of contact is that lower leg shield area so its common to see damage/missing trim there. Folks lay her down and then rip off the damaged aluminum trim for some reason.

Mirror mount I have a good spare which Iíll give you. Rather than a triangle shape, its just one long flat bar which clears the shift handle.

If you cant get the key out, you can buy replacement Zadi fork/glovebox lock kits with matching keys so you only need one key.
Thanks MJ for the offer for the mirror mount, and the key/lock info. I finessed the key out today with the help of WD40 yesterday. I think I'm going to make a set of mirror mounts from an old bedframe. That's what I've got on my other P200 and they work pretty good.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:34 pm quote
Clean(er)
Today I:

Pressure washed the scooter, and gave it a quick wipe down.

I also pulled the battery and filled it with distilled water and stuck it on the charger. I've got another battery ready to go but figured, what the hell...

The glove box is pulled away from the legshield at the top, enabling water to pour in, which is why the two bottom bolts holding the glovebox are rusted. The PO told me he's had it stored in his garage for the last 10 years, but I'm starting to doubt that. I've gotta look into that, but first, make it run!

The rubber air boot is split, and it's got a 20/20 carb in it. The carb box lid rubber is trashed. Also, it needs new boots. I'll get a carb kit and new hoses while I'm at it.

The paint isn't in the best of shape. The front fender has some good gashes, and has been kinda painted. The rear cowls have been painted - spray over onto the frame of the lights!

OH, the plastic fuel tap. It wouldn't turn in either direction from the center or "off" position, so I'm going to take it out of there. I should also replace the fuel tap, as well as the plastic part. I want it reliable and I don't want to break this unique and original part. someone may be doing a full restore and need it. My understanding is the fuel tap is unique also to the US. The positioning is different than what is sold now, which is the euro spec. Euro is Off, ON, Res. The US plastic version is On, Off, Res. I'll verify this when I take it apart.

So the next step is to:
Put a good battery in it.
Pour some gas in the bowl and see if it'll start.
Order parts!!!
Drain and pull the tank, replace fuel tap and hoses.
Pull the carb and rebuild.
Check the rear wheel nut!
I'm sure I'll get "distracted" by other stuff I see along the way.

Time for more pics.

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Inside the glove box. The top doesn't seal and there is a big gap, so it leaks like a sieve.

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The floorboards cleaned up pretty nice.

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Nothing seems amiss from a quick glance of the engine. 20/20 carb though... :(

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What to do about this missing legshield. Clean the rust off, touchup paint, then a new legshield? or a partial legshield? Hmmmm.... I am happy with the floorboards!

Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3182
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:17 pm quote
Donít forget to check your stator wiring
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1463

Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:51 am quote
if you ever decide to fix the shifter tube, please don't use epoxy to fill the void...a few minutes with a welder to build the aluminum back up is all it will take.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:37 pm quote
So today I drained the gear oil - and my first thought was "damn, that oil looks good, but really thin" and it was pouring out. Then my nose smelled the gas.

Damn is right! Looks like lots of gas in the gear box. From what I've read that means clutch side seal.

Let's take a step back. I bought this scooter for a project, and to get it back on the road. Therapy, and postpone an old machines end of life.

I've never taken an engine out of a Vespa, or split the cases. So it looks like now, I get the opportunity! And a few hundred more dollars in seals, bearings, gaskets, and whatever else that needs replacing. I have been watching a lot of videos and reading how-tos. I've also got the Haynes manual, but not all the tools (Crankshaft installer, bearing & seal punches)

So does anybody have any sage advice, or not-so sage advice, or just downright silly advice? Any advice would be appreciated!

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Look at that super thin sloshy gear oil! :D

Addicted
Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
Joined: 07 Nov 2013
Posts: 547
Location: New Zealand
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:17 pm quote
Take pics and notes and rely on your people
No one was born with this knowledge ..we all remember our first ..er..rebuild....(I saw you all do a flashback just then)
Anyone can pull something apart. Reassembly is different.Best advice is to take pictures at every stage....can never have too many so snap away
way back before digital cameras I would use paper bags and write notes on it....eg two carb holding screws ,two washers.two lock washers etc and then put it a box.....oft there were notes indicating orientation of the part...and the order they came off.....actually thats REAL important...Haynes glosses over that with just "reinstall how it came apart"

There will still be times you'll need to sleuth stuff out with "its clean this side and dirty that so it must go that way"

with exploded diagrams and the collective consciousness of our peeps youlll do it

..and from the old Volkswagen book "if you work on your own engine,not only will you have a better relationship with your scoot...you ll have a better relationship with yourself"

good luck
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:41 pm quote
Re: Take pics and notes and rely on your people
Bluecati wrote:
and from the old Volkswagen book "if you work on your own engine,not only will you have a better relationship with your scoot...you ll have a better relationship with yourself"
Thanks for the sage advice Bluecati. I've rebuilt a number of VWs back in the day and love that old VW book. There was a line that said something like: "start the car and roll a smoke before you roll. That's about the time it takes for the engine to warm up". What a crack up, and perfect advice.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1463

Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:45 pm quote
My advice is before you start working on it, is to clean the engine well enough to be able to eat off of it.

I spray my favorite engine degreaser on the engine while itís still in the frame. Then I blast it with a pressure washer. After that, I remove the engine from the frame, then blast it with the pressure washer again. I donít care if water gets into the carb or clutch breather because I start disassembling the cases immediately.

Iíve always followed the same cleanliness philosophy as Vader for all my engines.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:33 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
My advice is before you start working on it, is to clean the engine well enough to be able to eat off of it.

I spray my favorite engine degreaser on the engine while itís still in the frame. Then I blast it with a pressure washer. After that, I remove the engine from the frame, then blast it with the pressure washer again. I donít care if water gets into the carb or clutch breather because I start disassembling the cases immediately.

Iíve always followed the same cleanliness philosophy as Vader for all my engines.
Exellent whodat - thank you. I pressure washed the scooter before putting it on the table. I'll do the engine area again before I pull the engine, then again once it's out.

Should i replace the engine mount bushings? They are 37 years old! Anything else I should replace?

I plan on getting the whole rebuild kit from ScooterMercato. http://www.scootermercato.com/REBUILDKIT-VSX

Last edited by qascooter on Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 451
Location: California
Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:02 am quote
Great Thread! Is that a D.A.M.S.I. seat?
Member
Joined: 05 Feb 2018
Posts: 37

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:39 am quote
My advice, for whats its worth...
Go slow and enjoy the process. Lots of good advice on here and if youre at a stage youre unsure of, just walk away for awhile and think it through / ask questions. Works for me anyway.

Oh, and get a torque wrench! At least the smaller one. I always overtighten shit, and this tool has changed my life!
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:21 pm quote
hibbert wrote:
Great Thread! Is that a D.A.M.S.I. seat?
Thanks! It's about to get interesting since I've get to split the cases. I've never taken a Vespa engine out, so it should be fun. And yes, it sure is! I posted a pic below...
JanP wrote:
My advice, for whats its worth...
Go slow and enjoy the process. Lots of good advice on here and if youre at a stage youre unsure of, just walk away for awhile and think it through / ask questions. Works for me anyway.

Oh, and get a torque wrench! At least the smaller one. I always overtighten shit, and this tool has changed my life!
Good advice on both fronts, thanks. I've got two different inch/lbs torque wrenches. One is old school and I seem to use that one the most. The click one seems pretty cool, but I'm always double-checking it. Maybe someday I'll feel confident in it...

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I don't know anything about this seat brand. It seems in pretty good shape...

Hooked
1955 Allstate 1958 lambretta 1965 Allstate 1968 sprint
Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 312
Location: Central california
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:12 pm quote
Old vespa
Well gascooter: I would talk your buddy ďlucky bearĒ and have him send me an engine stand. We built two stands and only one is being used. Iím sure you could borrow the one not being used. It is a lot easier to disassemble and reassemble using a stand. Scott
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:37 pm quote
Re: Old vespa
Sjanuary wrote:
Well gascooter: I would talk your buddy ďlucky bearĒ and have him send me an engine stand. We built two stands and only one is being used. Iím sure you could borrow the one not being used. It is a lot easier to disassemble and reassemble using a stand. Scott
Good to know - thanks! I'll hit him up. You wouldn't happen to have a pic of what the stand looks like? I vaguely recall a thread on this. I'd ask luckybear but I believe he's busy playing tourista...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6882
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:00 pm quote
Gonna be fun seeing what you do with this one. Your first motor surgery and some serious body attention. And I second the motion for a good motor test stand that you can run the motor in.

It really does remind me of my only P, a beat up white '79 200 in Greece. See if you can guess what FIRST caught my eye when I first saw yours. Clue: dasmi. So I'm watching the Mechum motorcycle auction and guess what once again caught my eye ? This bike went for over 100K, so looks like you're in fine company!

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Hooked
1955 Allstate 1958 lambretta 1965 Allstate 1968 sprint
Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 312
Location: Central california
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:36 pm quote
Engine stand
Gascooter: does make things easier. There was a thread somewhere. Let me see if I can find a picture somewhere. I know there is another stand. And yes fatbear is playing tourist. Talked to him today via text. Scott

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Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:34 pm quote
Wow - that stand is amazing. I love that you can spin the engine on it's axis. You say you guys (you) made two and luckybear has one of them?!? When he gets back I'll give him a call. Meanwhile, I'll make do with something I hobble together.

And Voodoo - you like the seat eh? My legs are too long for this type of seat to be comfortable. I haven't tried it yet though, so I may be mistaken. It does look comfy.

Today I pressure washed the engine area again on the frame, then proceeded to disassemble. I took the carb out and the carb box was super loose, just rattling around. The fuel line looks original - it was so stiff I could barely cut it with a razor knife!.

Took the rear tire off - I may take the rear area apart while I've got the frame holding it up. I also couldn't get the exhaust freed up at the head, so I soaked it with some WD40 and will give it a go tomorrow. Oh, and I almost got the gear box out. The cable holder is getting in the way so I'm going to get that loose. Once it's dangling, All that is left is the main pivot bolt and the shock mount. Then I'll pressure wash again...

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Carb box was very loose, so this thing had to be sucking extra air. The rotor looks in good shape.

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First look at the stator wires is fairly positive! No broken down insulation so far, and even the ground wire looks good!

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Selector box is packed with super old looking grease. I should probably clean it out and start from scratch with it, since I'm refreshing everything else.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6882
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:48 pm quote
to remove shifter box
qascooter wrote:
... Oh, and I almost got the gear box out. The cable holder is getting in the way so I'm going to get that loose. Once it's dangling, All that is left is the main pivot bolt and the shock mount. Then I'll pressure wash again...
Loosen & remove the pinchbolts holding the cable ends(under that original Italian grease), 7mm wrench on top & 8mm wrench under. Pull the cables out the front. Now remove the neutral switch and rotate the batwing CCW past the gear stop detents as far as you can and the thing should wiggle off the 2 studs. No dangling required.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:41 pm quote
Thanks Voodoo - it came off very easily. The engine is out, degreased and pressure washed again, and on the bench!

I'm going to pick up a piece of allthread and make a jig to remove the engine mount bushings. They are looking squished, as well as the shock mount bushing. No wonder the wheel wasn't perpendicular to the ground!

Lots of cleaning of parts to do. Has anybody used Oxi-Clean to soak parts like the carb box, nuts and bolts, etc.? What is your favorite method? Kerosene?

I don't have a water blaster, or bead blaster, so it's going to be a scrub brush and whatever solvent based cleanser to clean it all up. I'm hoping to soak parts overnight in something to do the majority of the cleaning. Then the dishwasher! It's kinda like a dish!

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Sprayed the engine down with KrudKutter and getting ready to pressure wash.

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Did the same with the exhaust

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On the bench and ready to go. Gotta get an engine stand, but there is plenty I can do in the meantime. It's not clean enough to eat off of, but close enough. I'll get the rest later.

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Filthy under the fender - and this is after I hit with the pressure washer. I'll clean it up before the engine goes back in.

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1463

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:19 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
Then the dishwasher! It's kinda like a dish!
Don't get caught by your girfriend, wife, or mother! My mom once caught me removing clean cases out of here dishwasher. I caught holy heck from that mistake!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1463

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:29 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
Lots of cleaning of parts to do. Has anybody used Oxi-Clean to soak parts like the carb box, nuts and bolts, etc.? What is your favorite method? Kerosene?

I don't have a water blaster, or bead blaster, so it's going to be a scrub brush and whatever solvent based cleanser to clean it all up. I'm hoping to soak parts overnight in something to do the majority of the cleaning.
My favorite cleaning product is "Purple Power". I buy it at Napa. It's something like $15 for a 2.5 gallon jug of it. I use it at full strength. Make sure the engine is dry first, then spray it on. It doesn't work nearly as well when the cases are wet. Also, since the Purple Power is a little bit corrosive, so it can etch the cases if you let it dry on them. Just keep spraying the parts down for about 3-5 minutes, then hit it with the pressure washer.

Make sure to wear gloves and eye protection. I'd recommend to bring the engine down to the local coin-op carwash so that you can hit the cases with a higher pressure than what a garden hose can do. It wil save you LOTS of time. Wear rubber boot and rain gear if you decide to go that route, because you will most likely get pretty wet.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:08 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
My favorite cleaning product is "Purple Power".
Thanks Whodat - I'll check it out. So far, the Krud Kutter and a brush are working pretty good.

Today, I took out the shock mount, engine mounts, brakes and backing plate, and the stator.

The engine mounts came out pretty easy with a piece of allthread and various washers, and a piece of PVC pipe for everything to slide into. I tapped the shock rubber mount out with a screwdriver and rubber mallet.

Brakes went easy. The stator needs to be rewired. I'm contemplating soldering it up myself but need to find the right color wire, proper gauge, size, etc. And the red coating on the connections... On the fence about this...

OH - Voodoo told me about blowing air into the clutch vent and check for leaks. So I put a piece of tubing over the hole and blew....and I hear lots of air coming from somewhere - sounds like the hub axle area. I do it again and sure enough, there is a piece of paper by the axle and it's blowing in the wind! Looks like the seal is wasted, or on second thought, if the rear hub was installed, would that make a difference?

I should get a delivery from ScooterMercato on Monday so I've got plenty of time to disassemble and clean, clean, clean.

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Stator wires are frayed in a couple of places.

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Engine mount is ready to be cleaned and get the new buffers. I stuck with the original rubber ones.

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Shock mount popped out pretty easy with some persuasion.

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:31 am quote
Yesterday I cleaned the rear fender well. And this is after pressure washing it...twice! The engine was still in it at the time, so that's part of it. It dawned on me that I could just pull the tank and pressure wash the back end, and I want to replace the tap and lines anyway - so now if the time for the tank to come out.

The oil is moving very slowly - I'll pull it apart and clean the screen, or maybe slush it out with some gas...

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Had to take the plastic putty knife to the grime...

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Getting better...

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Looks pretty good in the tank hole! That just sounds dirty...

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Oil dripping slowly. It's not that cold here!

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:52 pm quote
Just a couple of pics after pressure washing the wheel well.

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Nice!

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Could use a bit more cleaning around the stand, but pretty good overall!

Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4674
Location: So Cal
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:06 pm quote
Clean makes everything else easier.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:47 pm quote
Advice?
OK, I need y'alls advice. I pulled the piston and cylinder - should have done this immediately, but hey, I'm learning. So this is my first time opening up an engine, so if you could have some patience with me, I'd appreciate it.

The piston has some scoring and the cylinder will need honing. My question is: should I replace the piston, or is this piston usable? It has 11,000 miles on it and the ports were never champhered.

Clean it up a bit more, scotchbright pad, hone the cylinder and install new rings? This is what I'm hoping to do verses replace everything, i.e., throw some more money at it.

Which direction do you think I should I go? Should/could I use this piston?

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A fair amount on this side, but not deep.

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The other side.

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Cylinder from one end

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The other end

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1463

Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:45 pm quote
Though that cylinder and piston can be cleaned, dressed up, and made to run, I have always, always, always, rebored and replaced the piston whenever it happened to me.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:53 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Though that cylinder and piston can be cleaned, dressed up, and made to run, I have always, always, always, rebored and replaced the piston whenever it happened to me.
Thanks for this Whodat. I think the wristpin is a hair ovalized too, which I didn't notice before. My verniers are crap so I ordered a new one and it should be here on Wednesday. The piston has a 2m stamped on the crown so I'm assuming 2nd oversize.

I live in a pretty small town and there is only one machine shop. I'll give them a call about boring out the cylinder, and if not, it'll just have to do with a cleanup and honing.

While I'm waiting on that, I rebuilt the stator! I pulled each wire out individually and measured, then crimped and soldered the connector, then routed, stripped, and soldered the wire in place. After I was all done I used some liquid insulation for the solder areas and bare wire.

The big test was checking the ohms - and it passed with flying colors, according to the stator wiki (Thanks MJRally!). So that's one good thing happening! The wiki is here Stator Values Wiki

Oh, and I pulled the fuel tap and cleaned out the oil reservoir with gas. Man, that oil tank had some sludge in it for sure. The gas wouldn't even drain out until I did the ole shake it like a paint mixer and drain from the filler spout. Yes, I smelled a bit like gas when I finished, but at least now the oil tank is clean and flowing again. It looks like somebody put 30 weight in the thing - the oil was thick! I don't have and pics of that though.

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Newly wired with old pile of fried wires. The insulation was just crumbling off the wires when I was removing them.

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Closeup of the connections

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1276
Location: London UK
Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:56 am quote
Piston is a bit rough. Will run though. So lucky it parked with the exhaust port covered. Might have been rustier.

I see you ordered bits but just so you know the options. These GS pistons are just the same but with thin rings. Power/reliabilty and economy all better than the original.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/~/products/piston+grandsport+200+cc+_12092000

This one is 2nd o/s. Could just scotchbright that bore......or hone it. Either way still looks in good shape. Built like a tank.

You're going to need a small end, oil seals, gaskets and cruciform at least and as is usual probably a lot more

Edit: If measuring the piston with your dodgy vernier, the size is taken from above the boost port hole across to the exhaust side. 2nd o/s is usually 66.9

Last edited by Jack221 on Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1467
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:29 am quote
Nice job so far. I would have started splitting the engine, cause it will already be "crusty" inside just from the wash you gave it...
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:22 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
These GS pistons are just the same but with thin rings. Power/reliabilty and economy all better than the original.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/~/products/piston+grandsport+200+cc+_12092000

This one is 2nd o/s. Could just scotchbright that bore......or hone it. Either way still looks in good shape. Built like a tank.

You're going to need a small end, oil seals, gaskets and cruciform at least and as is usual probably a lot more

Edit: If measuring the piston with your dodgy vernier, the size is taken from above the boost port hole across to the exhaust side. 2nd o/s is usually 66.9
Thanks for this info Jack - I appreciate it. Nice to know there are options for a stock piston. I ordered this rebuild kit from ScooterMercato: http://www.scootermercato.com/REBUILDKIT-VSX I figured that even if I don't need everything, I'll have it. And of course there will be stuff I'll need in addition. I'll check everything thoroughly to see if it needs replacing or not). I'm hoping to learn enough to check it all out so I've been searching this site and reading through boatloads of threads. So the help is very much appreciated!

And yes, SaFis - In retrospect I should've split the cases pronto. Live and learn. My excuse was I didn't want to hack up a stand so I ordered one, and it'll be here on Thursday also. In the meantime I've been cleaning what is out and taking care of some other pieces (gas/oil tanks, stator). Thanks for the feedback!

I know a bunch of you have done this many times, but for me, I'm pretty nervous about messing something up. Take prying the clutch out for instance. It took me a 1/2 hour because I didn't want to damage the cases. Next time it'll take 5 minutes. All part of the fun!

Last edited by qascooter on Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:46 pm quote
OK, I couldn't wait any longer so I split the cases! It went very smoothly. The cases came apart with just a little jiggling of the kick starter.

All the bearings seem pretty solid except the needle bearings on the flywheel side. They are very, very loose. I'm going to wait until the new ones get here before taking these out of the cases, so I'll clean them up as best I can without putting them in the dishwasher or submerging the bearings. Probably not going to matter anyway.

And I'm going to wait until I have parts for the clutch, gear tree, and cush drive before I take them apart. I do better to take apart and put together as close together as possible.

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The case halves, in all their glory...

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Internals out and on the bench. Like a surgeon, hey, splittin for the very first time...

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Bin-O-Parts

Hooked
59" Allstate
Joined: 03 Aug 2018
Posts: 169
Location: TC Florida
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:06 am quote
qascooter
Good job on the rebuild, ill probably need to do the same at some point.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:56 pm quote
FatAmy wrote:
qascooter
Good job on the rebuild, ill probably need to do the same at some point.
Thank you - I'm working on it. The tutorial http://www.scootermercato.com/Garage/Tech-Tips has been very helpful. The pictures are thorough. A great resource.

I received a box full of what I need to put this baby back together, minus the piston, which I measured and ordered today. 66.90 is the cylinder, so it looks like the 2M piston is correct, so that's what I ordered. Thanks for that info Jack221!

I removed all the bearings, scrubbed the cases with a brass wire brush using de-greaser (Krud Kleener), then hot water. Then blew them dry with the air compressor.

I also cleaned the rotary pad and skim coated a couple of very fine grooves with JB Weld and a razorblade. We'll see how that works out.

Itching to do the clutch, cush drive, shifter cross, then I can do bearings, seals and the crankshaft. In other words, the whole engine! [/url]

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Bunch of Parts - thanks David at ScooterMercato!

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Measurement of the cylinder on my new verniers. Fancy and works great.

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Rotary Pad before JB Weld

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Rotary Pad during razor blade scrape down.

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While I had some JB Weld mixed up I glued magnets onto the end of the drain and filler plug. I cleaned everything with rubbing alcohol before JB Welding.

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1123
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:15 pm quote
Today I got the bearing collar off the crankshaft, installed the motor mounts and shock mount, honed the cylinder with a three legged jobber using WD40 as the lubricant, rounded the edges of the cylinder ports with the dremel, and put in the clutch side needle bearing.

I also sanded down the funky intake. It's like they drilled it out as an afterthought and left the wings from the drillbit.

And I cleaned up a bit so I don't trip over myself! Ha!

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Sucking in the shock mount into the case.

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What's up with the funky drilled intake? Let's smooth it out a little.

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There, that's better!

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1276
Location: London UK
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:21 pm quote
you're picking up this engine splitting thing fast.

The drilling and the front of the inlet could be something to do with the casting process but its more likely just an oversight. Now as you have chosen, all on your own, to have the inlet as non-original, it may as well be as it should have been for a stock engine. If you took the back of the inlet out 10mm it would have a bit more torque and uphill pull. While in there fit the carb box and blend it all in together. Some have some nasty edges between the two.

I would be concerned about using that old crank. It may be fine, it may not. Assuming its tight now and no visible rust in there, the proof will be in a few hundred miles time.

While in the cylinder with a Dremel it would be rude not to dress the exhaust port. The original intention is 38.8mm from deck to the inside of the port. If its less don't worry but if its more you could do a bit of 'blueprinting' (for a bit extra 38mm holding the same shape has good results).

Edit: btw that rotary inlet is fine. There are way worse running very well. The marks are just from an overheat, probably the same time the piston was damaged. I would assume from a lack of 2 stroke oil.
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