One more T5 on the NSM Forum
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Addicted
2008 GTS 250, 1979 P200E
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 968
Location: Florence, OR
Thu May 09, 2019 3:13 pm quote
Wow, this'll be fun to watch. Thanks for all the pics. The body looks in great shape.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4515
Location: So Cal
Thu May 09, 2019 3:59 pm quote
Bold move, I like it. This is going to be good.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu May 09, 2019 7:06 pm quote
You must be so pleased with the condition of so much of it! Going to look a treat Chrys! Although the 25mm of oily crud encasing the motor would make Vader turn in his grave...
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 265
Location: california
Thu May 09, 2019 8:56 pm quote
SaFis - killer find.
Extra cool pics - including the case porting. Thanks!
Gonna be a very sweet ride.
Look forward to following this one.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Fri May 10, 2019 1:48 pm quote
Thanks guys!

Engine split...



















Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1341

Fri May 10, 2019 3:05 pm quote
Ugh! The cases look like a Chia Pet
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Sat May 11, 2019 1:19 pm quote
Constructive Saturday. After 8 hours of swearing, washing, brushing, a whole can of Permatex carb cleaner, two changes of clothes (drenched from head to toe) and a bath, I think Vader would have approved. I started with an oven degreaser spray, my trusty 120bar pressure washer and moved on to my parts washer and my small DIY wire brushes. I know I could have just send the cases to be vapor blasted but I prefer to spend the cash on something else. And since most of the engine will be covered, it would be a waste anyways...

Oh, and Michael, the crud was 23,9mm. You were close...

Photos...

























Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat May 11, 2019 5:33 pm quote
Well I'm impressed!
Hooked
50 N
Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 260
Location: North Aberdeenshire
Sat May 11, 2019 10:53 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Wish I could mount those discs with the tubeless rims...
There is this option, supposing you could manage to chase some down that is.

http://www.scooternova.com/wordpress/1980s-vespa-wheel-discs-by-andreas-pinasco/

This could be another option.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vespa-Wheel-Cover-Nelson-Piquet/153476768273?hash=item23bbeda211:g:KsgAAOSwJxRcxe2f

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vespa-px-t5-borchie-Nelson-Piquet/264315122303?hash=item3d8a68b27f:g:6G0AAOSwptxcphpc
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun May 12, 2019 12:28 am quote
Thanks Juan. Iíve already seen those. Iíl see what Iíll do...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Sun May 12, 2019 6:39 am quote
Looks like a great damage free engine. Cleaned up well.

Always impressed by the T5 casings. Many of the P issues fixed. Really should restore one myself. The short T5 crank would handle lots of rpm. When I get more time I think I'll look for one.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4515
Location: So Cal
Sun May 12, 2019 7:48 am quote
I know nothing about T5 engines.. out of curiosity, whatís the advantage the side transfers being split instead of being just one huge port?

289E26D9-BB42-44FF-85BC-DB71522B35A7.jpeg

Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun May 12, 2019 2:19 pm quote
@SoCal: I think they're there to split the "charge". But don't bet on this. I'm also new to the T5s engines...

Split the crank today and cleaned the cylinder. Will take the cylinder to my machinist to have it measured and polished, so as to match the correct "lettered" piston...

Photos...















Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1341

Sun May 12, 2019 2:40 pm quote
Have you thought about polishing the connecting rod and the webs while it's split? I did that to my T5 crank when my crank install guy recommended that I do it. It had something to do with the rod "knifing" though the air/fuel charge. I removed all the sharp edges everywhere on it, and buffed it to a very bright polish. It also lowered the weight of the rod as well (as in less weight on rotating parts is a good thing). He then cut an oil slot in both the top and bottom of the rod when the bearing run. I thought it was a very good investment.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun May 12, 2019 2:50 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
I know nothing about T5 engines.. out of curiosity, whatís the advantage the side transfers being split instead of being just one huge port?
Mike I believe it's an extension of what's going on in the cylinder itself. I always assumed the divider was there to give strength and that's it... but the diagram below gives you an idea of what is meant to be happening - getting the gas heading in the correct direction. Part of the idea is to have the gasses going to the combustion chamber with enough velocity to avoid simply heading out the exhaust port. Anyay I thought this diagram was very useful in visualising what's going on.



59882099_137613070730699_3160665702981959680_n.jpg

Hooked
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 378
Location: California
Sun May 12, 2019 3:19 pm quote
very nice SaFiS lucky you
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon May 13, 2019 1:41 pm quote
Manufacturing fault discovered. Apparently, Luigi was bored that cold November of '86, so he left work earlier to get some pasta and wine. The inside of the axle needed to be machined 2,5mm further but it wasn't. The selector rod was resting higher so 4th gear wasnít engaging fully. Since the axle is hardened, we machined the selector rod and now 4th gear engages as it should. I thought that Q.C. was better in the '80s









Last edited by SaFiS on Tue May 14, 2019 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Tue May 14, 2019 12:15 am quote
Good find Don't see that kind of mistake so often (4th gear btw).

What you doing with the cylinder? Looks a bit rough.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue May 14, 2019 1:30 am quote
Dah!! I always make this stupid mistake. Cylinder is going to my machinist. He will polish it and measure it so we can choose the piston to go in. Thankfully a supplier has a few different lettered pistons (A,B,C,etc.)...

My heart told me to go for a Malossi 172 with a SIP head, but my logic prevailed for now...
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue May 14, 2019 1:25 pm quote
Found the last NOS conrod at my supplier. Bad news on the cylinder. Apparently I didn't notice that the Nikasil plating was gone at the top. My machinist didn't touch it and told me to run it as is until it dies. He has seen worse cylinders though. Cleaned up the piston, new rings and Malossi 172 is in my future plans...















Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1341

Tue May 14, 2019 4:43 pm quote
Congratulations on your future 172 kit! So far that's the only performance cylinder kit that i've never had any problems with. It's a lot more torqey than the stock 125 cylinder, and it makes pulling hills much easier. I went with a milled MMW cylinder head with my kit.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1341

Tue May 14, 2019 4:49 pm quote
I'm just throwing it out there, but is it possible that at one point a few non-EFL gears were installed in that T5, and that's what made the selector rod not get the crusiform all the way into 4th?...or incorrect shims on the gear stack? Or a combination of both?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Tue May 14, 2019 11:38 pm quote
Was thinking 'polish up' was a little optomistic. Is it too much to get that nicasil re plated?

172 will obviously be the way to go but will then will need more expense to make it really go, stop, handle etc.

Have you measured the ports to see where the porting is?

Last edited by Jack221 on Tue May 14, 2019 11:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue May 14, 2019 11:50 pm quote
When I said polish, I meant just a pass with the honing tool. I did a lightly scarred Malossi 210 recently and came out perfect. But this isnít the case with this one. Replating will cost me more than the Malossi kit. Ports are stock. Engine was never split. Will measure it though...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Wed May 15, 2019 2:14 am quote
Honing Nicasil is a delicate operation. They are usually honed after the final plate and don't leave much to work with.

As the cylinder will soon be trash there is scope for making some changes. Stock T5 cylinders have low transfer timing to keep the power down. Raising the cylinder will fix this but need to be sure the blowdown is enough and head can be adjusted.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1384
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed May 15, 2019 12:44 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Honing Nicasil is a delicate operation. They are usually honed after the final plate and don't leave much to work with.
I know. This guy relines nicasil cylinders so he knows his stuff, but in my case, he told me it wasn't worth it due to the high cost. He also suggested that it's cheaper to buy a new kit. He usually works with expensive cylinders (YZ, CR, KTM, etc.)...
Jack221 wrote:
As the cylinder will soon be trash there is scope for making some changes. Stock T5 cylinders have low transfer timing to keep the power down. Raising the cylinder will fix this but need to be sure the blowdown is enough and head can be adjusted.
Did a dry fit. I see what you mean. Transfer ports are half open at BDC. Anyways, I've decided to postpone the build, since the respray will set me back at least for a month and go straight for the Malossi...
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4515
Location: So Cal
Sat May 18, 2019 8:59 am quote
Ginch wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
I know nothing about T5 engines.. out of curiosity, whatís the advantage the side transfers being split instead of being just one huge port?
Mike I believe it's an extension of what's going on in the cylinder itself. I always assumed the divider was there to give strength and that's it... but the diagram below gives you an idea of what is meant to be happening - getting the gas heading in the correct direction. Part of the idea is to have the gasses going to the combustion chamber with enough velocity to avoid simply heading out the exhaust port. Anyay I thought this diagram was very useful in visualising what's going on.

Thanks G, makes sense. Kind of like putting your thumb over a garden hose... the shape and angle of the case ports are designed to maximize the velocity of the incoming charge, and help direct it to the corresponding intake and boost ports in the cylinder in way that allows it to be dispersed more efficiently.

I wonder how much of this applies to the porting we do to our engines? In other words, instead of just hogging out the case ports to increase volume, maybe work the shapes and angles to increase velocity?
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 265
Location: california
Sat May 18, 2019 9:22 am quote
SaFis - the pictures are awesome.
Enjoying the expert level discussion as well.

Inlet port looks unique in shape.
Curious about how it matches carb - reason they shaped it like that.
When you get to the carb - will you also post some pics looking up into it?

Tks!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat May 18, 2019 10:36 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Ginch wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
I know nothing about T5 engines.. out of curiosity, whatís the advantage the side transfers being split instead of being just one huge port?
Mike I believe it's an extension of what's going on in the cylinder itself. I always assumed the divider was there to give strength and that's it... but the diagram below gives you an idea of what is meant to be happening - getting the gas heading in the correct direction. Part of the idea is to have the gasses going to the combustion chamber with enough velocity to avoid simply heading out the exhaust port. Anyay I thought this diagram was very useful in visualising what's going on.
Thanks G, makes sense. Kind of like putting your thumb over a garden hose... the shape and angle of the case ports are designed to maximize the velocity of the incoming charge, and help direct it to the corresponding intake and boost ports in the cylinder in way that allows it to be dispersed more efficiently.

I wonder how much of this applies to the porting we do to our engines? In other words, instead of just hogging out the case ports to increase volume, maybe work the shapes and angles to increase velocity?
It was an area that Vader had been getting into... I imagine you could certainly undo a lot of careful calculation by a manufacturer fairly quickly! Assuming of course that they have actually made calculations in the first place.
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