Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1373

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:33 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
I've run Heidenau K68's back to back with a Conti Zippy 1, and it felt (and sounded) like the heidi's were a big mud terrain tires or something. The Dunlop TT92 race slicks were even a smoother ride yet. Needless to say i probably won't be buying another set of Heidenau tires anytime soon again.
Did you mean K58? K68s donít exist (anymore... discontinued). K58s are a big mud terrain tyre. Best rated. Best in the wet. But yeah... bit noisy. Like thatís a problem on a 2 stroke scooter?

https://www.tyres-pneus-online.co.uk/test/motorcycle-tyre/scooter.html
Oh, yes. K58's. I wasn't that impressed with them as a rain tire. I had a few pucker moments with them (when compared to a Conti Zippy)...

- I had a front wheel drift going about 35mph on a wet cloverleaf highway offramp.

-I used the K58's on the racetrack on a rainy day. I had HUGE front and back wheel drift with them. SO much so that I pulled out of the race two laps in. It was like I was on ice. No one else seemed to have problems with their tires that day. I had much better luck with their super gummy "rain/race" K58 version, but that tire wears out super fast.

I was thinking the same thing...who cares about a loud tire on a two stroke?...until I installed them and got a reality check. It also made the scooter vibrate enough that I though something happened to my crank. I was happy when those tires finally wore out. Others might not have the same issues with the K58's. I tend to push the limits a little more of my tires, and I expect them to perform as they're advertised.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:52 am quote
Gracious - good to have you guys pontificate a little around the issues. Lemme recap it here - love the input.

Frist - general spec:
Tires:
Going tubeless for safety.
1. 3.5-10 Conti WW K62 (fairly flat profile) for rigid sidecar set up
2. 100/80 - 10 Heidenau K80's for leaner sidecar set up.
The idea being - sportier cross section profile will be more appropriate to leaner - and flatter profile will perform better with non leaner set up.
I'll have two very different types of tire to test with.

Exhaust:
- SIP road II

Inlet:
- Polini venturi. Will C how I like this as a stand alone and then with exhaust to see what effects I get separate and in conjunction.

Cyl:
Polini 177

*new motor mounts mean engine will need to drop - still no plan to split.

WDC:
Quote:
I was thinking the same thing...who cares about a loud tire on a two stroke?...until I installed them and got a reality check.
Got it - thanks - and have already experienced similar myself. compound and tread pattern can be felt

Jack:
Quote:
I think a sound choice. Iron Polini 177 will work out fine pulling a sidecar. Difficult to damage and virtually idiot proof.
Virtually... we will find out.
Quote:
Big question is, do you need the 125 euro thin ring GS piston or not? They will allow a slightly wider exhaust port, which is good. The thicker polini rings will work ok though but don't like high compression (>12:1) or sustained higher rpm (7500+). As there is little danger of either of these being an issue, maybe spend the money on a 26/26 carb.
Like the thinking here - matches what I heard on the street. Wider squarer exhaust port = max out power while maintaining torque. Logic I heard. GS rings are solid wire. Std. Polini are cast. Significant strength difference - especially over long span like squared up exhaust port.
Still may choose to just chamfer ports and bolt on as is out of box.
Happy to map and take measures.
Swap a base or head gasket.
Wanna learn.

Question to the expert tuners:
What would be the set of specifics you would recommend for optimizing the porting for torque?
Do you need to see std specs first - lemme know - I'll post?
What spare gaskets - if any - should I have around for the install?

Jack and Swiss:
Quote:
You know your gear ratios? Not sure if you mentioned it before but with the 10 inch wheel it might matter.
Quote:
did you change your clutch at all? I know an upgear might ruin your torque, but that little change also really smoothed out my ride! If you are spending money, its not too expensive and can be done in probably half an hour to an hour.
Getting gearing right holds some value here.
I don't know my ratios - unfortunately.
First and 4th feel a hair tall.
2nd &3rd less so.

I've not really dug in on clutch very far - but like the idea of a PNP strong clutch - that doesn't cause carpel tunnel - and has a one less toothed gear on it.

I've read enough to make me dangerous regarding set of specs.
Heavier basket
Number of springs
Honda discs
Smaller drive gear
But haven't done full homework on this one yet.
If it is truly plug and play - perhaps should be higher up on my list.

Assume I will have to disassemble to get info on gear ratios, clutch teeth,etc?

First batch of stuff - wheels/tires/venturi/exhaust/ swing arm mounts - arrive t'day.

Thanks for weighing in ya'll!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 210
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:54 am quote
I'm not going to try to impact your decisions at all.

3 simple questions.

How many miles have you done so far on the bike?

How many do you plan to do on a 2 stroke motor?

How many of them do you want to spend running in a cylinder kit?
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:28 am quote
Gt6 - valid point.
Appreciated.
Boxes delivered to porch last night.
Sip Road II/Venturi/Tubeless & rims.
Project advancing nicely for me on the "certainties".
Parts will go on bike this week.
Cyl - not ordered yet.
Will c how much exhaust extends range of drivability.

Managed a few hundred miles + since acquisition.
So run in is considerably longer than a few weeks...
(tho bike was not really serviceable when first brought home).

That said - I suspect I'm in the two stroke business for long haul.
Just can't see giving up the gears/riding experience.
Install of cyl. sooner or later is in the plan.
Soft plan also imagines second scoot... what can I say.

One elec - one 2 stroke?
One leaner - one fixed?
The fixed is it's own fun to drive.
You have to stay on top of it and work it - see below.

Still suspect smaller gear on new clutch might have quickest bang for buck.
Speaking of which...

Would welcome some help from crowd spec'ing a clutch and cog that would:
- Be reliable/strong/but reasonable actuation effort
- Have slightly smaller gear than stock

Assume I am at 22 teeth - I understand that's stock.
Would need to drop to a 20 if I am understanding correctly.
Which basket, what plates, etc. not as clear.

imagined.jpg

Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4595
Location: So Cal
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:22 am quote
Solid choices, cman. All the homework youíre doing is going to pay off.

Unless youíre in a huge rush to get everything done at once (rhetorical proposition since we all know tinkering is never ďdoneĒ) Iím going to suggest you take the One Change At A Time approach to this. Do it in the name of science. Letís see how things work PNP before making any irreversible changes... actually see whether and how much of a difference new part A makes before grinding or modifying it or trying it with new parts B, C and D.
Quote:
I've not really dug in on clutch very far - but like the idea of a PNP strong clutch - that doesn't cause carpel tunnel - and has a one less toothed gear on it.
You arenít going to be making enough power to be worrying about exploding clutches. A 7 spring should be plenty. If you want smoother, easier puller Iíd go BGM Super Strong - pricey and overkill, but a sweet upgrade. While you have the engine dropped for the mounts, pull the clutch and see how many teeth you have on the cog now. Pretty sure you arenít going to want more teeth.

This is gonna be fun.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:46 pm quote
SCG - Thanks!
Pipe goes on this week.
Probably the venturi as well...

Was surprised to find so many running at least one bike with venturi.
Believe Patrick/OKT recommended leaving idle alone when adding venturi.

Curious about what you guys think.
Current plan:
- Up main 3-5 points for box exhaust.
- Up main another ~10 for venturi

Seem reasonable?
Also - insights on idle jet - do I leave alone?

Wadda ya'll think?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6834
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:44 pm quote
Been through a few clutches. Figured I go easy on them, shouldn't need anything special. Had I bought the Superstrong at the beginning, I would have A. Known much less about clutches B. Spent less on clutches C. Spent less on tow trucks. I love that the design does away with rivets etc, making the wearing surfaces much more robust.

How much extra load is a sidecar going to transmit to your clutch? And considering what you've spent so far, it doesn't seem like overkill in any way.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:25 pm quote
Yep, Superstrong with CR80 plates; clutch done.

The easiest way for you and Swiss to get the main jet ballpark is,

With a hot engine running on the stand, hold it wide open on the stop until max rpm, keep it there for a bit, ignore the neighbours.
Spluttering, not getting 8000+ rpm (or rpm about 1000 more than you could ever get in gear) and garage full of smoke is too rich.
Revs like a race bike and makes you scared you will break something expensive is running too weak.
Revs right out clean to 8000+ and possibly with very light splutter is good to go.
From here you can fine tune on the road.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 334
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:59 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Yep, Superstrong with CR80 plates; clutch done.

The easiest way for you and Swiss to get the main jet ballpark is,

With a hot engine running on the stand, hold it wide open on the stop until max rpm, keep it there for a bit, ignore the neighbours.
Spluttering, not getting 8000+ rpm (or rpm about 1000 more than you could ever get in gear) and garage full of smoke is too rich.
Revs like a race bike and makes you scared you will break something expensive is running too weak.
Revs right out clean to 8000+ and possibly with very light splutter is good to go.
From here you can fine tune on the road.
Worth checking the plug when doing this?
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 501
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:19 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Yep, Superstrong with CR80 plates; clutch done.

The easiest way for you and Swiss to get the main jet ballpark is,

With a hot engine running on the stand, hold it wide open on the stop until max rpm, keep it there for a bit, ignore the neighbours.
Spluttering, not getting 8000+ rpm (or rpm about 1000 more than you could ever get in gear) and garage full of smoke is too rich.
Revs like a race bike and makes you scared you will break something expensive is running too weak.
Revs right out clean to 8000+ and possibly with very light splutter is good to go.
From here you can fine tune on the road.
Ha yeah good advice and ive definitely done that enough to my neighbors. Now i throw my tools and jet kit in the glove box, ride the scooter down a few miles to a parking lot along the water looking out at Manhattan where no one will care if I'm noisy, then throw it on stand and rev it out like you said and mess with carb. It's far enough away that the scooter is warmed up by the time i get there, and i won't be pissing neighbors off, just random homeless people hanging out on the rocks along the water!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:24 pm quote
Careful parking near the water. If she jumps into gear while revving high it will be like the start of Quadrophenia all over again.

@PP takes many miles wide open to get enough colour to check
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 501
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:38 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Careful parking near the water. If she jumps into gear while revving high it will be like the start of Quadrophenia all over again.

@PP takes many miles wide open to get enough colour to check
Lol. that's why I park facing the street when doing that!
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:00 pm quote
Read clutch advice.
Just about to respond.
Commend/thank the crowd for sage input.
Just my luck - would be during a rally - rivets fail.
Just before hitting respond
Read Jack's jetting tips for Swiss & I.

Hahahahaha.
Quote:
Spluttering, not getting 8000+ rpm (or rpm about 1000 more than you could ever get in gear) and garage full of smoke is too rich.
Revs like a race bike and makes you scared you will break something expensive is running too weak.
Belly laugh.
One thing for certain - you can count on effective if reckless advise to be dispensed here. No extra charge.

Don't think these guys crossed the pond - but it seams you have solid company.
Tks!

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1373

Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:42 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
Yep, Superstrong with CR80 plates; clutch done.

The easiest way for you and Swiss to get the main jet ballpark is,

With a hot engine running on the stand, hold it wide open on the stop until max rpm, keep it there for a bit, ignore the neighbours.
Spluttering, not getting 8000+ rpm (or rpm about 1000 more than you could ever get in gear) and garage full of smoke is too rich.
Revs like a race bike and makes you scared you will break something expensive is running too weak.
Revs right out clean to 8000+ and possibly with very light splutter is good to go.
From here you can fine tune on the road.
Ha yeah good advice and ive definitely done that enough to my neighbors. Now i throw my tools and jet kit in the glove box, ride the scooter down a few miles to a parking lot along the water looking out at Manhattan where no one will care if I'm noisy, then throw it on stand and rev it out like you said and mess with carb. It's far enough away that the scooter is warmed up by the time i get there, and i won't be pissing neighbors off, just random homeless people hanging out on the rocks along the water!
and remember to bring ear plugs for two reasons. #1, it will save your hearing. #2, you won't think your scooter is loud as it actually is, that way you won't feel as bad when you're rousting the homeless.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 501
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:44 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
and remember to bring ear plugs for two reasons. #1, it will save your hearing. #2, you won't think your scooter is loud as it actually is, that way you won't feel as bad when you're rousting the homeless.
I'm already hard of hearing from years of playing the drums with no protection!
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 334
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:33 am quote
Re: Four stroking?
charlieman22 wrote:
Guys - need your help.
Can you please have a good listen and give opinion.
Turn up volume if helpful.
4 stroking at WOT?
Thanks!

I did think you were taking the piss. But then I'm like... maybe I'm missing something and calling him on it will be offensive. And I don't know wtf 4 stroking is. Maybe I'll just see where this one goes on its own...

"Supposedly Cousteau and his cronies invented the idea of putting walkie-talkies into the helmet. But we made ours with a special rabbit ear on the top so we could pipe in some music."

I even had a Team Zissou Vostok... but ironically let water in the first time I surfed with it on. Kinda too small anyway.
Hooked
'13 Buddy 125 Seafoam
Joined: 25 Oct 2018
Posts: 139
Location: Southcoast, MA
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:55 am quote
want!...
http://kelticsidecars.com/
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4595
Location: So Cal
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:37 am quote
Quote:
With a hot engine running on the stand, hold it wide open on the stop until max rpm, keep it there for a bit, ignore the neighbours.
My neighbors already refer to me as ďthat guyĒ.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:43 pm quote
Quote:
"Supposedly Cousteau and his cronies invented the idea of putting walkie-talkies into the helmet. But we made ours with a special rabbit ear on the top so we could pipe in some music."
Exactly.

IMG_0234.JPG
I pulled the clutch. 22 teeth.

FullSizeRender.jpg
Then - disaster struck. While counting the clutch, this happened. I was certain I did not hear a sound - searched all over the floor, every hidden oily shelf of the swing arm - THE WOODRUF KEY IS MISSING!

IMG_0231.JPG
After fruitless search on floor - remembered I had a tool - sine I was 16 - not sure I have ever used it - fished it in to the motor blindly into the oil resevoir under the primary and... MIRACLE

Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:45 pm quote
So my primary is 67 (4 counts - 4 times 76...) and my current clutch is 22.
Thinking the smart play would be the 20 tooth BGM superstrong CNC CR80.

Appears to be for a 67 tooth primary.

1. Is this the right part?
2. What do you guys make of the 67 tooth primary - did the builders grab a non stock primary to gear it down already - or was a 67 tooth primary stock?

Thanks!

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/bgm8296/clutch-bgm-pro-superstrong-cnc-cr80-type-cosa2/fl-for-primary-gear-67/68-tooth-vespa-px80-px125-px150-t5-125cc-cosa-sprint150-rally180-gt125/gtr125-ts125-gl150-super125-vnc1-11001-super150?number=BGM8296

Edit - appears that both the 21 & 20 tooth version run with the 67 tooth primary - so also need to choose which...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:04 pm quote
Well done getting the clutch out.

For next time you can remember where the notch is and set it so the key is at the top. Cosa clutches are easier.

Be sure to do the clutch nut up extremely tight. Loose clutch is the quickest way to destroy a crankshaft.

20 teeth is too low. 21 most likely but 22 might work too.
Once kitted and jetted there will be more torque (hopefully). I'm thinking 21.
Have a look about for the Superstrong Cosa clutch. MMW make one too.

Last edited by Jack221 on Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:19 pm quote
Thanks Jack.
The fishing of the woodruf key out blindly from the gear box was some kind of crazy diving save - I assumed I had just learned a tough lesson when I felt a little click through the magnetic stick and pulled it up. The words - "No f*king way" just rolled off my tongue.

Pheas' - consider the magnet on a stick my new favorite tool.

Question: are the Super strong clutch models you are referring to different than the BMG link I posted - thought that was the one (though that has 20 teeth).

Plan - re-assemble with current - now I know its 22.
Put pipe on and venturi.
Jet - and see if I feel like a little smaller cog would serve my riding needs well.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:04 pm quote
It's rare the key actually falls into the gearbox, so lucky it went in and amazing it came out.

This the MMW. Not seen a complete CR80 version but would cost way more than the BGM.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+basket+mmw+superstrong_93247000

and another cheaper choice (but riveted)
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+race+for_93403200

Then again, is Ultra better than Super?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+ultrastr_93403300

The BGM complete comes with CR80 plates, so like going with women shopping, back to the first one you saw.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 501
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:34 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
The fishing of the woodruf key out blindly from the gear box was some kind of crazy diving save - I assumed I had just learned a tough lesson when I felt a little click through the magnetic stick and pulled it up. The words - "No f*king way" just rolled off my tongue.
Nice job!
Jack221 wrote:
The BGM complete comes with CR80 plates, so like going with women shopping, back to the first one you saw.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:00 am quote
Quote:
It's rare the key actually falls into the gearbox
I kept telling myself gravity was on my side - musta hit the primary and spit forward - until I had to give in and get out the magnet... Lesson learned on rotating so key is facing upward.
Quote:
back to the first one you saw.
Indeed. Good chuckle.

Does anyone know what the stock gears in my bike are for the counter shaft and drive shaft? 1962VBB.

Ginch posted this elsewhere - very helpful - but not sure I have right existing numbers plugged...

http://gearingcalc.free.fr/
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6834
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:25 am quote
Yes if you search for gears for your model, SIP has a page with everything listed. Maybe in the pdf on the right hand side. It tells you what meshes with what, including non-stock options. There's another one for clutches...DRT make a bunch of clutch gears that fall between the Piaggio ones.

Glad you found the gear calculator useful...the visual output works much better for me.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4595
Location: So Cal
Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:01 am quote
Quote:
Does anyone know what the stock gears in my bike are for the counter shaft and drive shaft? 1962VBB.
Pretty sure VBB gearing is the same as Super.

Primary: 22/67
Input: 13, 17, 22, 27
Output: 57, 52, 48, 42

But remember VBBís came from the factory on 8Ē wheels. The 10ís on there now effectively upgear it.

Iíd personally go 21 on the clutch. The closer ratios make for a quicker bike. Maybe hold off on a new clutch for now ... stick the 22 back on and see how it goes with the kit .. you can always swap cogs later if you want more pep.

ps way to nab that woodruff
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:47 pm quote
Ginch/SoCal - Thanks.

- I plan to assemble with existing 22teeth and drive.
- Both sets of wheels and tires have arrived. Conti 3.510 are as tall as bike wheels - nothing like the 3.5-10 I already own. Had to double check they weren't 11's. The 100/80 - 10s are as calculated/expected.

Not sure what to make of it. Point being - not just 10" wheels, the size of tire has enormous effect on circumference. For interest sake - will post some pics and measures.

- RE gearing - been through SIP online and catalog pics - struggled to figure it out. They list VBB 1st gear. no 2-4. Don't list VBB under counter shaft at all best I can tell. Perhaps I have the wrong section?

The build it and drive it and then determine clutch size - is solid advice and the track I am on. Pipe and new motor mounts go on this weekend. Perhaps venturi if I get lots of riding time in. Have three very different height tire set ups to run with - should be interesting.

Screen Shot 2019-06-07 at 5.14.42 PM.jpg
Lists VBB 1st gear - but no 2,3, or 4 - under sprint.

Screen Shot 2019-06-07 at 5.46.15 PM.jpg
Doesn't appear to list VBB

Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 349
Location: california
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:13 pm quote
Headed back to LA.
Wife texted me this pic this afternoon with no qualifying verbiage.

[/img]

IMG_0324.JPG

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