Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:47 am quote
Quote:
That's not the piston he's going to use, he's got one made by this guy. Note how much lighter the piston is than a standard one - about 2/3! Which surprised me as it looks heavier. However if you watch the second video you'll see it has the trapped ring - which he described as a "reverse Dykes" (L shaped).
Got it.
So that's pretty cool.
Maybe he can make pistons for vespas...
But knowing how this crowd likes to do it themselves - here is a less complicated concept to stop what he calls "cross over" and add retained piston ring to a std Vespa piston we all have.

Trick I saw on the highest reving Datsun motors As a teen - Was to use floating wrist pins (normally pressed in) with teflon "buttons" in the end to keep the pin centered. While that was for different reasons - it is a cheap and simple means to plug the through hole.

A pin pressed from under the piston once the retaining style ring was put on could retain (ring would need hole and extended "L" portion. )

In this case - our standard pistons could remove cross over, and have retained size.

Thoughts?
How big a deal is "cross over" ?
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:50 am quote
Quote:
In this case - our standard pistons could remove cross over, and have retained size
*edit: retained rings.

Pic below is example of teflon end plugs - cheap and cherry solution that could be used with even stock wrist pin to close off any "cross over"

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:19 pm quote
I did wonder about those myself - I'd heard of them but never actually seen them. Much easier in a 4 stroke where the walls are smooth and nothing will catch on ports.
But in reality we wouldn't suffer from this crossover as none of the mainstream cylinders have the kind of porting that makes it possible... triple exhaust ports that reach right around as far as the pin? The studs don't allow it as Jack has pointed out often.

His design is very interesting, but the only thing that would be of benefit to us is the retained ring - which would allow a wider exhaust port than currently possible.

Sorry I feel like I've hijacked your thread with this stuff, but I find it really interesting even if I never get to experience it!
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:39 pm quote
Hijacked?
How are we going to get this side car to 80mph without a big ass exhaust port?



This is awesome.

I love the idea of super wide port - bunches of lower RPM HP would be an interesting step forward/ great for drivability.

I hadn't considered the implications of the transfer ports - that would shred my caps unless they were just inset and pressed into wrist pin. But as u explained - really not needed as no x over exists.

I've got a spare polini piston I didn't use. Perhaps when I get back to LA I'll experiment with contained rings and post - here or new thread. Doesn't matter.

Anyone know of a place that can make a custom piston ring to a specific design?
Molto Verboso
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:01 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Perhaps the Piston experimentation should be it's own thread.
Oh Come on CM, don't you want three pages on piston research on your thread? It's only 17 pages so far! I love it! I think this is the PERFECT place to talk about pistons. Ha! JK my friend. All kinds of good info here....

20190731_113118.jpg
My piston contribution...

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Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:49 pm quote
Quote:
Oh Come on CM, don't you want three pages on piston research on your thread?
Better then four pages of welding dissertation.

🙂

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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:28 pm quote
So, this is what you get up to when I'm not here. Best use for a 200 Meteor piston that I have ever seen. These massive iron rings struggle to not self destruct at 60% chord. I have tried several times but 60% is the limit.

The short circuit on the wrist pin is when there is a aux exhaust over the top of main transfer. The gas jumps from the bottom to the top when passing the wrist pin. Teflon bungs would help but would't stop it.

Ring design is the key to this problem. Many ideas work but none I know of are reliable for road. This won't help the P200 as it is though. 70% chord is exactly the biggest that fits between the studs. Malossi even had to make the stud holes tighter to get more metal. Only the custom engines like Egig and SLabs that spend months welding and grinding get around this issue.

CM As you have a GS thin ring piston cabable of 70% chord. If you increase your width 5mm, you will be plenty happy enough.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:50 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
That's not the piston he's going to use, he's got one made by this guy. Note how much lighter the piston is than a standard one - about 2/3! Which surprised me as it looks heavier. However if you watch the second video you'll see it has the trapped ring - which he described as a "reverse Dykes" (L shaped).
Trick I saw on the highest reving Datsun motors As a teen - Was to use floating wrist pins (normally pressed in) with teflon "buttons" in the end to keep the pin centered. While that was for different reasons - it is a cheap and simple means to plug the through hole.
Iím envisioning sort of a Wankel powered 240Z...
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Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:40 pm quote
Jack - cross over explanation makes sense - Tks.
Quote:
CM As you have a GS thin ring piston cabable of 70% chord. If you increase your width 5mm, you will be plenty happy enough.
So bit differing views on that one (65% curved measure Ginch/ 70% cord measure Jack.)

By Ginches numbers, I'm already at 68%. By yours - I have 5 mm more to open it up. Tempting.

I assume some risk or additional wear comes with the wider measure.
Perhaps the retained ring still provides some value in this case.

For the time being, I'll break in what I have and enjoy the ride. Plan A.

WDC - you are not far off! - but they were 510s rather than 240zs.
couple of the cool kids had wankle motor conversions - revved like a two stroke - mine were 4 bangers with Webber carbs that I never learned how to properly jet! If there had only been a forum!

Getting back on track...

1. How big a main can I feed without drilling carb or adding fast flow tap? Current SI 20/20 with 160/be3/128 stack.

2. What would a 24/24 do for my HP/ power band/ torque?

Thanks!

IMG_1704.JPG

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Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:09 pm quote
Soft Serve Seize
FMP screen shot

Screen Shot 2019-08-31 at 1.55.23 PM.jpg

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Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:12 pm quote
48/160, 160/BE3/128.
Milk Chocolate plug color.

So... decided to take it up to Mullholand Drive - see how she performs in the hills. One might even say, I took it "out of the city and thrashed it"...

Pulls like a tank. Ran up the hill no problem.
Got on to Mulholland and ran it hard.
Was having fun - pulling up an inclined section.
Third gear, lotta throttle.
Peaked the hill and let off accelerator...

Then - about 30 feet of mostly closed accelerator later - I heard this sound.
It wasn't a good sound.
It was kinda like a sound of 100 people screeching as their skin was being removed with pliers.
And my mind thought - hmmm - what is that sound?
That does not seem like a good sound.
And why is their no power at this millisecond?

And I snatched the clutch - cause in an instant - I knew...
That would be the sound of a back tire locked up at 45.23MPH
(Had GPS speedo running with phone lying in side car at the time).

Pulled over.
Temp ~245
Light push on the kick starter - turns.
Waited about a minute.
Restart - one kick - happy as a clam.
Soft seize...

Drove ginergerly for a mile - all seemed well - and I decended hill - coasting a bit in neutral to avoid seizing on idle jet again with engine turning higher rpm due to being in gear.

Once back in the flats - decided it must have been lean due to altitude and perhaps idle jet already a bit lean.

Checked data off GPS.
Normally I ride at 700ft.
This was at 1320ft.
Not sure if that is sufficient to make a difference.

So I drove home - WOT of course.


Any thoughts on above diagnosis?
Plan to drop down idle jet one size to richen up a bit - and perhaps go back up there and see how it goes.

(with two fingers on the clutch...)

IMG_1735.PNG
Ironic timing. IK...

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:40 pm quote
Welcome to the club.

Higher altitude makes it richer.

How many miles have you put on that kit (my actual question - it's not run in yet is it?). I wouldn't be thrashing anything on a cast iron kit until it's well run in. aluminum, well that's a different story.
When you close the throttle at speed, where it was happily jetted correctly, it's now only got mainly the idle jet to supply enough lubrication. If your timing is not just right, and your kit is still tight, then you are close to the edge already and it doesn't take a lot to tip it over.
Once it is run in you may have a bit more leeway to do exactly what you did, but just a bit. Same thing happened to my old Polini on a (go kart) track day, light seize at the end of the straight with throttle closed... and that was with thousands of km on it.

What I do when backing off now as a just-in-case is blip the throttle while clutching... in my case it's probably unnecessary, but...
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:16 pm quote
Sucks man! There is a lot of this going round right now. Must be a bug in the air. Hopefully nothing damaged.
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:58 pm quote
Quote:
Same thing happened to my old Polini on a (go kart) track day, light seize at the end of the straight with throttle closed... and that was with thousands of km on it.
Yikes - so you are familiar with the sound of warmed up sticky tires being dragged against their will. Not nice.
Quote:
Welcome to the club.
Realized I had signed up for said club about 15ft into the screeching rear wheel skid - but... you know... thanks man.
Quote:
How many miles have you put on that kit (my actual question - it's not run in yet is it?).
I've got about a dozen 30 min+ rides getting full heat and allowing to cool off.
Perhaps I was a bit optimistic on it's readiness.
Quote:
I wouldn't be thrashing anything on a cast iron kit until it's well run in.
What's your run in regimen for an iron cyl?
Wonder if it was a run in issue as much as a bad jetting choice (see below).

Update:

This afternoon - I dropped down idle from 48-160 (3.33) to 45-140 (3.1)
Did this previously prior to new cylinder - and found it significantly rich with old set up (caused 4 stroking at 1/8 to 1/4 throttle).
Now... Not so much.
Surprised.

New plug since rebuild - has lovely dark (milk) chocolate hue now.
Probably a step rich.
Thought the idle didn't need to be bothered with for new cyl.
Apparently - thought wrong.
Might drop down another size - and figure out where "too far" is before walking back up - as next step.
Quote:
Sucks man! There is a lot of this going round right now. Must be a bug in the air. Hopefully nothing damaged.
Thanks!. I thought this story might give you a knowing chuckle.
Mostly just glad I stayed on the bike - turns out that big heavy side car does a pretty good job stabilizing things at speed - when your rear wheel stops turning that is. #Reason29youneedasidecar.

Must admit tho - considering a custom clutch handle/trigger grip over my beer tonight - that allows quick two finger pull without crushing my pinky and ring finger.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:16 pm quote
I think Ginch and FMP are both right.

New cylinder, new piston, tolerances still tight, minimum run in time, maybe a hair lean on the idle... it got its first good, solid heat soak under full loan pulling that hill WOT, and when you backed off there just wasnít quite enough gas to cool it down.

The good news is it fired right back up. Thatís a testament to the quality of the GS piston.

As for a richer idle jet, Iím not sure you want to drop down to 45/140. See if you can find a 50/160.
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:47 pm quote
Quote:
Iím not sure you want to drop down to 45/140. See if you can find a 50/160.
Is that a volume thing related to the 140 number, or u think It'l b too rich ? I've never really understood the nomenclature on these things.

Is there a specific concern?
Ossessionato
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:08 pm quote
Yeah volume... The first number is the size of the fuel opening, the second number is the size of the air opening. So even though 45/140 has a higher fuel-to-air ratio than 48/160, it delivers less fuel.

Itís possible you need an idle jet that flows more fuel.

Weíre running essentially identical set ups, and the 48/160 has worked fine on mine for miles long hard uphill/downhill WOT thrashing. But thinking this throughÖ you did a little extra porting to your cases and piston, which probably makes it bit greedier and more demanding.
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:28 pm quote
Quote:
Itís possible you need an idle jet that flows more fuel.
Thanks Mike.
So I had a 55-160 laying around.
That is a pretty big step.
Threw it in this morning anyway - and took it for a ride - figuring I had little to loose - will order a 50-160 for next week.

Bike ran remarkably well. Not much discernible difference in driving - maybe a bit smokey at idle and a little fat - but no 4 stroking to speak of and not unreasonable.
Suspect it will be plenty happy with the 50-160.
And given my surprise lock-up, I'm kinda liking the idea of going a bit richer than I was...
Will blip away as I come off the throttle going forward - screeching sound still indelible in mind.

Oh - and Jack - you will be pleased to know - it also did a number on my hub... So last spare will have to go on this week.
This one held up remarkably given the state of my output shaft.
Still hope to get about a month more out of this motor before I split as I have some travel but want to keep riding if I can in the mean time.
Starting a parts list for the split - will post in hopes that I buy the stuff I actually need.

* I have a 27mm hub seal with 10" drum. When I change my output shaft, do they make a larger diameter one I could use in the build? I put so much side force on when zipping through the twisties left and right - perhaps a larger dia. output shaft would pay dividends. Thoughts?

Last edited by charlieman22 on Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:54 am; edited 2 times in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:06 pm quote
The driveshaft is the same size, there are two sizes of seal available to suit the two drum/hub options... 30 and 27mm.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:35 am quote
Quote:
So I had a 55-160 laying around.
That is a pretty big step.
Threw it in this morning anyway - and took it for a ride - figuring I had little to loose - will order a 50-160 for next week.

Bike ran remarkably well... screeching sound still indelible in mind
Right on CM... and yeah, that screech is something you donít soon forget, which is probably a good thing.

Folks when CM says the scoot runs ďwellĒ heís being modest. Heís pushing 60mph on that hack.

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Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:27 pm quote
Thanks guys.
Decisions decisions...

At the end of summer, plan to deal with wonky drive shaft and end play.
Could split motor - or as WDC threw out - replace with P200.

A running - but in need of minimum seals and a bit of tuning P200 motor is available - but not cheap. $1400 (ish).
It would need a going through for service parts - seals, cruciform, bearings... figure $250 of parts. Then - while I have it open and all - I might have to consider the MHR set up as Craig has going in touring fashion.
That would be about $375 additional = $2K of motor total.
I would have a monster power plant.

For $500(ish) I can get a 60mm crank and same list of service parts for my small block.
I'm kinda vested in the small block - so while I like the idea of the P200 motor, not sure it's worth the full start over at this point.
If I am going to split cases tho - I would want to optimize.
Throw in a slightly shorter 4th gear.
Longer stroke as noted.

Shockingly - I am looking for some opinions.

Starting point - small block - Polini 177/GS piston/Sip Road II/SI 2020/ Custom fly side oil seal.

1. If you were splitting the cases, what would you do to trick out and squeeze some reliable power *and where is the best bang of buck?
2. How much more oomph does one get from the 60mm conversion - worth it?
3. The two crank options I found are below (non PX flywheel). Are there others that I need to know about?
3. Does someone sell a flowed crank for rotary - do I want to do it myself with a grinder, some beer, and some polishing stones? Doest that trash the balancing? (yes - i that is a reed valve setup that I lifted from a Ginch post - thanks Ginch!)
4. Will a 24/24 carb add anything meaningful?
[/u]

Hate it and wouldn't bother with a small block at all?
Let it flow.

Screen Shot 2019-09-03 at 4.57.55 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-09-03 at 4.31.32 PM.jpg
Non PX version - already have a vape elec ignition to go on.

Screen Shot 2019-09-03 at 6.08.14 PM.jpg
Sexy flowed crank

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:10 pm quote
Firstly, the non-P cranks have a much weaker taper... for the - let's say "enthusiastic" rider, that may become an issue. There is a crank available to suit the 150 earlier case with a P taper... I'd go for that as a minimum. I'm sure you could sell on your Vape and get another one to suit. Also have a look at the Mazzuchelli K2D range (case hardened).

Craig has a 177 MHR, and a 210 Sport. The Sport is a true touring cylinder with bags of torque and better suited to your application imo. Yes there is the old Polini 200 which I'm sure is cheaper, but they are chalk and cholesterol to my way of thinking. Put them side by side and you'll see one is unchanged since 1983, needs a fair bit of casting cleaned up, ports de-razored etc etc. And the other one says Malossi on the box.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:58 pm quote
If you had nothing invested in the 150, then the 200 would be more of an option. As you have almost all you need already not much more money would get this finished. And once finished if it wasn't enough you could sell the whole working engine. And start again with a 200 build.

60 crank and a 26/26 carb are about all you don't have. Fix all the expected/unknown issues. A whole load of tuning/grinding/beer and its the torquiest 190 anybody ever rode.
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:19 am quote
Crank
Keith Richards claims the reason he's still alive (empirically) was that he only did the finest purest heroin - while managing not to OD. No filler.
I have no idea if that's true - the alive part or the pure part.
Quote:
If you had nothing invested in the 150, then the 200 would be more of an option. As you have almost all you need already not much more money would get this finished.
Like it. Ancient crank should go when case is split - before a wobble at 8K+ rpm leaves me with con rod parts in the bottom of the case.
Quote:
for the - let's say "enthusiastic" rider
Uh huh.
Quote:
There is a crank available to suit the 150 earlier case with a P taper... I'd go for that as a minimum.
Ahh. Makes sense. The marketing pitch on all of them is just say they can fit less expensive ignitions. Tougher fatter taper value now more apparent. Tks.

Challenge sorting out what crank will fit.
Request an assist on spec'ing if possible.
Normal Mazz and Pinasco ones say they fit VBB.
KD does not - (I included it's specs as well) - but wonder if it can be fit without total science project.

Perhaps there is a better/different option?

Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 8.04.59 AM.jpg
Option 1: PX stubbed Mazz'

Screen Shot 2019-09-03 at 4.57.55 PM.jpg
More expensive Pinasco

Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 7.59.42 AM.jpg
Mazz KD (may not fit VBB case)

Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 8.02.01 AM.jpg
Specs for the Mazz KD

Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 8.14.40 AM.jpg
Caution: You are here ^

Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:30 am quote
Haha, power corrupts absolutely.

Tough choice, but if a monster engine is the end game, go for a 200.

If you do decide to build a 200 motor, keep an eye out for a decent non-SEA rolling scoot you can put the small block in. Everyone needs at least 2 scoots.
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:01 am quote
Quote:
Everyone needs at least 2 scoots.
Speaking of others with addictions...

Actually - I have a plan for a second scoot.
That one tho is gonna be electric.
Want a VBB style chassis to start with.
Figured if I build an electric, I will have one that is always running.
Mostly because I haven't taken it apart to "upgrade"...
Basically take what I learned and do a ground up build from parts.

In truth - I love how mine is running right now.
Would be happy ripping around on it and getting better/smoother with side car.
Driving issue for yanking motor and throwing back on bench at end of month is the wonky drive shaft.
That's an ongoing liability that is only fixed by splitting cases.
Little bit unlucky really.
If fiberglass mat and Hondabond would fix - I would be all over it - and I would be focusing on sidecar upgrades instead.

The existing crank is also suspect in current motor.
So it get's a swap to the the 60mm cause I am there...
Heard the 26/26 carbs are untunable - so a bit surprised to see that one get a vote - was expecting 24/24.

P2 sounds fun of course - so if one falls to me at some point - that touring 210 sport setup would be great. Gotta leave something for next summer...

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:51 pm quote
It would be nice to have something solid in there - now having some insight into you riding habits.

Have a look at this for background on the issue of P vs. pre-P crank fitment. Unfortunately Scooter Central is dead but found this again in archives (yay!). I'll be interested to see what you think - whether it comes under the scope of science project.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160310065830/http://www.scootercentral.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16229
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 pm quote
Not so sure large taper cranks are all theyíre cracked up to be.

To quote Rob Hodge:
Quote:
you're going to have to tune your bike a hell of a lot more than the current level you say it is at or ride it like a complete idiot before the size of the crank taper becomes an issue.
I admit I sometimes ride like an idiot but Iíve never busted a crank.. itís the old, heavy 5.5 lb flywheels that are the weak link. Iíve destroyed two. But that shouldnít be a problem with the newer ignition kits, which come with much lighter flywheels.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:37 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Not so sure large taper cranks are all theyíre cracked up to be.

To quote Rob Hodge:
Quote:
you're going to have to tune your bike a hell of a lot more than the current level you say it is at or ride it like a complete idiot before the size of the crank taper becomes an issue.
I admit I sometimes ride like an idiot but Iíve never busted a crank.. itís the old, heavy 5.5 lb flywheels that are the weak link. Iíve destroyed two. But that shouldnít be a problem with the newer ignition kits, which come with much lighter flywheels.
You're probably right, but a heavier flywheel would be better for the sidecar.

Maybe my experience with Subetherbass has coloured my judgement, as he's busted two small taper cranks. I've only snapped one (a large taper), and I ride fairly conservatively.
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:42 pm quote
Thanks you guys!
Good input.
Ginch - thanks for looking that article up.
Starting to hone in now on the differences and fits (oh - and I now know that Sprint cases are like VBB - one bit at a time)
Now re-reading SIP long winded explanation of crank options for VBB makes more sense.
They married a Sprint crank with a PX stub - so you get the thicker fly side shaft, but don't have to do magic tricks on clutch side. Thats the Muzz'.
When the article that Ginch posted was written - there were no PX options for cranks off the shelf.
That guy was pretty creative.
He put a PX crank in a VBB/Sprint case for the electronics/stator mostly.
Little bodgey for my taste (Ha!) with the bonded in bearing solution.
If I went that road - I would have a groove cut for a cir clip like PX cases have.

Heavier fly wheel is a keeper for me as noted.
Want to keep some oomph as clutch comes out off the line.
It's also true I like to drive the bike hard - but I'm thru the gears pretty smoothly. Gear box isn't young...
I'm fairly careful with matching engine speed on down shifts as well - with only an occasional chirp due to hard breaking - but it can happen...
(not counting my 50ft-full-lock-up0-screeching-soft-seize...)

Now understanding better the options and advancements made - I would opt for the PX output shaft on sprint crank off the shelf solution - no extra cost and I think it allows fly side seal to be installed from outside - so I don't have to post anymore fibergalss and hondabond photos.

Here is where I could use some help

It looks like I have two options - the Muzz' and the Pinasco.
Both have the PX output.
Any idea the trade offs?

(Hibbert used a 60mm muzz crank and noted it was 112 degrees / 10 degrees post TDC. I assume this one is the same)
(Found some data on Pinasco which I believe relates to the one that fits my case. 123į/6į post tdc.)

Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 8.04.59 AM.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-09-03 at 4.57.55 PM.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:11 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
If I went that road - I would have a groove cut for a cir clip like PX cases have.
Yes, absolutely... first thing I thought of when I read the thread. Couldn't be that hard for someone with the right tool.
But I understand you don't want to make it more difficult than it already is.

Speaking of more difficult, you could fit a 200 crank. It needs to have a slot cut in the case as they have a wider sealing surface (and therefore larger possible inlet) than the 150. Just throwing it out there...
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Honda elite
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Location: California
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:43 pm quote
Was not aware of the Pinasco crank when we got the Mazzucchelli but Pinasco sure looks sexy
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1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4822
Location: So Cal
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:48 pm quote
The Pinasco crank has a more aggressive cut. They make nice cranks. I installed one in a smallie, the machining and polishing is top notch.
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Location: california
Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:17 pm quote
Quote:
Speaking of more difficult, you could fit a 200 crank
Ginch - you left out the eccentric rod pin - I mean - if I am grinding the case and all. actually - mind has been expanded by the possibilities. Thanks.
Quote:
Was not aware of the Pinasco crank when we got the Mazzucchelli but Pinasco sure looks sexy
Hibbert - your brave cutting of the Mazz was impressive. I suspect you ended up with similar timings of the Pinasco - but that's a wild guess. Wish I had more info on what timings are aggressive but still safe/ effect on power band. Anyone with insights there feel free to jump in!
Quote:
The Pinasco crank has a more aggressive cut. They make nice cranks.
Like that vote of confidence on the Pinasco. Sure looks nice in the pics. Just don't really understand what timings I would be after (see above...)

Have shopping list just about complete.
Leaning Pinasco on crank (admittedly somewhat blindly on timings effects)
Fishing for a little insight on EFL transmission conversion.
Given that I have to change the drive shaft - and 4th gear - and might find others worn - thought that I should at least consider.
Whodat is a fan of this - as posted elsewhere.
Has anyone gone this route on a small block from scratch?
Any insights on scope of what needs to be done would be interesting for me.

Thanks!
- CM
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:48 pm quote
Pretty much all of us in the US have the older non-EFL transmissions since most of the EFL PX's didn't get officially imported (except by way of the grey market). I got tired of the older weaker transmissions (I was racing scooters at the time), so I converted all my P's over to EFL transmissions (then eventually i got electric start 200 cases for them as well). I think some people think that i do my builds backwards, but i always start with a solid base first...a front disc brake conversion and then a EFL conversion. After that the money is usually gone, so i can't afford a cylinder kit. When that happens i just toss on a stock 200 cylinder and call it good for the next 20,000 -30,000 miles. But when you have a new EFL transmission that is all sorted and a disc brake, you can always be sure that your engine (and scooter) will be ready for a performance cylinder kit at a later date. I've done it the other way around a few times, but i have learned my lesson.
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74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:48 pm quote
Eccentric rod pin? I'll leave that one alone... definitely in the too-hard basket for me, with my lack of balancing skills!

I put an EFL in an early-ish case, a VBC. It all fitted ok, the key to it is choosing the right input shaft/layshaft/whatever they're called. The one that goes through the xmas tree.
There are a number available and you just need to choose one that has the right ends to suit your case, fortunately most of them have the same dimension where the bearing mounts if I recall correctly. I can't get the sip catalog to open on this computer unfortunately, but the comparison between them is on page 484. Actually, I managed to download the catalogue (2012...thanks SIP!)... I think since then there have been extra bits added but I'm not sure that each one has the diameter info on the page.

Clipboard01.jpg

Hooked
1986 T5,1979 P200e
Joined: 30 Oct 2014
Posts: 421
Location: Oak Brook, Illinois
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 pm quote
EFL
I have an EFL axle on my 86 T5. I didn't know it til the axle bearing disintegrated after 3 years. Whoever rebuilt the motor had installed an open bearing and since on an EFL the bearing sits on the outside of the seal, it doesn't get any lubrication. I put in a sealed bearing.
Note: I split the cases to replace that bearing, but I'm not sure I had to.

image.jpeg

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Location: california
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:21 pm quote
Whodat - thanks. I am trying to digest the how - your reasoning on the why makes sense.

VPF - ouch!
Noted. Need to sort out seals/bearings correctly if I go that route!!
Thanks!

Ginch - awesome.
Found Sub Ether's thread this afternoon.
modify VBC 2-port - the DYNO RESULTS are (finally) in ... (Page 2)

Also read that damn SIP catalog about 4 times including fine print.
Can't quite determine if EFL = Lusso: but that was my takeaway.
SIP doesn't sell "EFL" cogs or components.
Did I get that wrong?

I love my gear ratios right now 1-3.
Only need to get a little shorter on 4th to be perfect.
The Lusso stuff is all different sized on output shaft - so I have to work out my ratios and see if I could even match with available input shaft mixed in.

Luckily - there is this: http://gearingcalc.free.fr/
From prior Ginch post.
Swiss - if you are reading this - check it out.
You are in the rare position to be able to count all the teeth and make sure you are inputting the correct ones.
(You have to scroll the input area to the left to put in tire size.)
Quick glance shows I can get close - but need to confirm first I am even looking at right cogs "lusso".

Using what SoCal gave me as likely gears/ and doing a little reading/ I plugged in my numbers - then went out and tested to see if they were accurate.
Looks like they are - so fairly sure I have it.

57/54/48/42 on output shaft
13/17/22/27 on xmas tree
20/67 primary (I put a 20 on my clutch).
I'll go test that again to confirm at some cruising speeds.

Using the calc.
Ratios work out to:
1st 14.49
2nd 10.31
3rd 7.32
4th 5.12

Will have to plug in the available lusso tree and cogs - to see if I could match.
That is... if Lusso = EFL.
So that was a long winded question...
Does it?
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:27 pm quote
its a thing

Screen Shot 2019-09-06 at 7.26.17 PM.jpg

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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:28 pm quote
I have not seen that page, but I have used this page regularly. It is always a guessing game on which gearbox to use, but I think I have found the ones closest to my LML for that calc. by comparing the results of each to my stella's real world results (prior to it being broken).

https://www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

my choices on this calc for Stella 2T are:

Primary Gear: 22/68 (PX125 w/upgeared clutch) cause LML is 21/68 stock and I upgraded to 22 Tooth clutch cog.

Gearbox: P200 W/T5 4th

I also use SIP product pages to confirm tooth count for all the parts in my gearbox before splitting. It might be easier for me to do it the SIP part description way because I can just narrow it down to LML gears and there are only one set for all LML 150 engines, whereas the vespa parts are two different types as explained.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the EFL conversion and how to know what size input shaft/etc to use. I probably won't do it this time on my stella, but I am watching and following along as you potentially do it to your hack!
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