Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:24 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Whodat - thanks. I am trying to digest the how - your reasoning on the why makes sense.

VPF - ouch!
Noted. Need to sort out seals/bearings correctly if I go that route!!
Thanks!

Ginch - awesome.
Found Sub Ether's thread this afternoon.
modify VBC 2-port - the DYNO RESULTS are (finally) in ... (Page 2)

Also read that damn SIP catalog about 4 times including fine print.
Can't quite determine if EFL = Lusso: but that was my takeaway.
SIP doesn't sell "EFL" cogs or components.
Did I get that wrong?

I love my gear ratios right now 1-3.
Only need to get a little shorter on 4th to be perfect.
The Lusso stuff is all different sized on output shaft - so I have to work out my ratios and see if I could even match with available input shaft mixed in.

Luckily - there is this: http://gearingcalc.free.fr/
From prior Ginch post.
Swiss - if you are reading this - check it out.
You are in the rare position to be able to count all the teeth and make sure you are inputting the correct ones.
(You have to scroll the input area to the left to put in tire size.)
Quick glance shows I can get close - but need to confirm first I am even looking at right cogs "lusso".

Using what SoCal gave me as likely gears/ and doing a little reading/ I plugged in my numbers - then went out and tested to see if they were accurate.
Looks like they are - so fairly sure I have it.

57/54/48/42 on output shaft
13/17/22/27 on xmas tree
20/67 primary (I put a 20 on my clutch).
I'll go test that again to confirm at some cruising speeds.

Using the calc.
Ratios work out to:
1st 14.49
2nd 10.31
3rd 7.32
4th 5.12

Will have to plug in the available lusso tree and cogs - to see if I could match.
That is... if Lusso = EFL.
So that was a long winded question...
Does it?
The short of it...yes, Lusso=EFL.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:32 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I have not seen that page, but I have used this page regularly. It is always a guessing game on which gearbox to use, but I think I have found the ones closest to my LML for that calc. by comparing the results of each to my stella's real world results (prior to it being broken).

https://www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

my choices on this calc for Stella 2T are:

Primary Gear: 22/68 (PX125 w/upgeared clutch) cause LML is 21/68 stock and I upgraded to 22 Tooth clutch cog.

Gearbox: P200 W/T5 4th

I also use SIP product pages to confirm tooth count for all the parts in my gearbox before splitting. It might be easier for me to do it the SIP part description way because I can just narrow it down to LML gears and there are only one set for all LML 150 engines, whereas the vespa parts are two different types as explained.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the EFL conversion and how to know what size input shaft/etc to use. I probably won't do it this time on my stella, but I am watching and following along as you potentially do it to your hack!
Be careful mixing and matching “short” 4th’s...
A T5’s 36 tooth 4th gear will only fit the EFL transmissions. If you want a shorter 4th gear in a non-EFL P200 gearbox, you will use a stock 36 tooth 4th gear out of a non-EFL P125.
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:20 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Be careful mixing and matching “short” 4th’s...
A T5’s 36 tooth 4th gear will only fit the EFL transmissions. If you want a shorter 4th gear in a non-EFL P200 gearbox, you will use a stock 36 tooth 4th gear out of a non-EFL P125.
Ha ha! When I got my first short 4th, I discovered this fact... could have put the old one back, but hey, all I was missing now was an EFL drive shaft, 3 gears, an input shaft and I was there! Education, huh! Sometimes it costs just a little more than you imagine.
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:03 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
I have not seen that page, but I have used this page regularly. It is always a guessing game on which gearbox to use, but I think I have found the ones closest to my LML for that calc. by comparing the results of each to my stella's real world results (prior to it being broken).

https://www.scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

my choices on this calc for Stella 2T are:

Primary Gear: 22/68 (PX125 w/upgeared clutch) cause LML is 21/68 stock and I upgraded to 22 Tooth clutch cog.

Gearbox: P200 W/T5 4th

I also use SIP product pages to confirm tooth count for all the parts in my gearbox before splitting. It might be easier for me to do it the SIP part description way because I can just narrow it down to LML gears and there are only one set for all LML 150 engines, whereas the vespa parts are two different types as explained.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the EFL conversion and how to know what size input shaft/etc to use. I probably won't do it this time on my stella, but I am watching and following along as you potentially do it to your hack!
Be careful mixing and matching “short” 4th’s...
A T5’s 36 tooth 4th gear will only fit the EFL transmissions. If you want a shorter 4th gear in a non-EFL P200 gearbox, you will use a stock 36 tooth 4th gear out of a non-EFL P125.
I didn't actually put a short 4th in my Stella. I've just read the Stella gearbox is the equivalent to a p200 w t5 4th and that calc seems to line up with my real world results when I use that setting. But that is good information to be aware of if ever I do change 4th for short one.
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Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:53 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
Speaking of more difficult, you could fit a 200 crank
Ginch - you left out the eccentric rod pin - I mean - if I am grinding the case and all. actually - mind has been expanded by the possibilities. Thanks.
Quote:
Was not aware of the Pinasco crank when we got the Mazzucchelli but Pinasco sure looks sexy
Hibbert - your brave cutting of the Mazz was impressive. I suspect you ended up with similar timings of the Pinasco - but that's a wild guess. Wish I had more info on what timings are aggressive but still safe/ effect on power band. Anyone with insights there feel free to jump in!
Quote:
The Pinasco crank has a more aggressive cut. They make nice cranks.
Like that vote of confidence on the Pinasco. Sure looks nice in the pics. Just don't really understand what timings I would be after (see above...)

Have shopping list just about complete.
Leaning Pinasco on crank (admittedly somewhat blindly on timings effects)
Fishing for a little insight on EFL transmission conversion.
Given that I have to change the drive shaft - and 4th gear - and might find others worn - thought that I should at least consider.
Whodat is a fan of this - as posted elsewhere.
Has anyone gone this route on a small block from scratch?
Any insights on scope of what needs to be done would be interesting for me.

Thanks!
- CM
Don't know much about transmission options but on my GL 150 with the previous alum Pinasco cylinder design I used a 64/23 straight cut primary. This engine has plenty of power and torque with a 24mm carb and 57mm crank. But after working on my latest Bajaj engine and all the learning I have gained in the last few months when I am finished with the Bajaj I might go back into the GL and tighten things up.

After building the GL I discovered how much fun the 150 is. For me 45-55 MPH is plenty fun and knowing I have so much more makes 45 so easy it almost drives itself. It might also be a sign of age and slowing down. Sorry for my rambling on my next build I decided to explore how a 60mm crank changes things and left out the overdrive. We'll see if that was a good decision soon.

On the 60mm crank I decided not to use the flywheel side seal modification. Can't remember why exactly I did not pursue it but the times I've had seal issues they've been on the clutch side anyway. Although you've had a seal issue Charlie I did not feel the modification was worth it. Hopefully this does not prove to be an oversight. Think there was one posted on here several months ago.

And you know the advantages and options for flywheels and stator plates.

If my understanding is on track the longer the inlet duration the broader the power band? When I started with the 60mm Mazzucchelli the factory inlet pad duration was giving us 149°. After enlarging the pad and cutting the crankshaft we reach 187°. I don't know exactly what this means but that is what I know.
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Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:19 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Pretty much all of us in the US have the older non-EFL transmissions since most of the EFL PX's didn't get officially imported (except by way of the grey market). I got tired of the older weaker transmissions (I was racing scooters at the time), so I converted all my P's over to EFL transmissions (then eventually i got electric start 200 cases for them as well). I think some people think that i do my builds backwards, but i always start with a solid base first...a front disc brake conversion and then a EFL conversion. After that the money is usually gone, so i can't afford a cylinder kit. When that happens i just toss on a stock 200 cylinder and call it good for the next 20,000 -30,000 miles. But when you have a new EFL transmission that is all sorted and a disc brake, you can always be sure that your engine (and scooter) will be ready for a performance cylinder kit at a later date. I've done it the other way around a few times, but i have learned my lesson.
Got confused by this and just realized I have EFL gearbox in my stella as mentioned on my thread:
http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2346140#2346140

Mentioning it here for completeness regarding charliemans discussion about which scoots have EFL vs non-EFL gearboxes. Stella/LMLs are EFL.
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Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:41 pm quote
Gents - as usual - many thanks for the inputs - all of 'em.
Ginch - took me a moment to realize - you had one wrong gear (EFL) and ended up building a whole elf transmission around it. Thanks for the chuckle.

Transmission:
Whodat - think I have finally sorted out the efl components. Not sure I can get back to my target ratios - but using calc, looks close. I think I can use my existing xmas tree shaft (or new) but will need new set of cogs for it- and then a full set of new cogs and output shaft on the drive shaft side (some of which I need anyway).

Looks like I have some travel that will take me near SC and SIP at end of month. Wife is starting to question if my "work travel" is being determined by my parts needs. Pfff. the nerve. Honestly.

I plan to tear down before I go - have good look at wear parts and take some key measures - hell - just drag the xmas tree shaft with me if I have to. I'll get a chance to confirm all cog counts - and see how close I can get on drive ratios with elf options.



Crankshaft:
Quote:
pad duration was giving us 149°. After enlarging the pad and cutting the crankshaft we reach 187°. I don't know exactly what this means but that is what I know.
Ha! I could have written that myself.

Sime66 was kind enough to give me some targets - suggested 123 degree crank target
That happens to be what the Pinasco available for my cases is.
Like that - but concerned that if I find my rotary pad has been dremeled previously - then I might have too long an open duration in combo with the cut crank. Thoughts?

Given history of this bike - crank is going to get replaced when I split no matter. 60mm and well tuned is target.

Last edited by charlieman22 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
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Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:46 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Pretty much all of us in the US have the older non-EFL transmissions since most of the EFL PX's didn't get officially imported (except by way of the grey market). I got tired of the older weaker transmissions (I was racing scooters at the time), so I converted all my P's over to EFL transmissions (then eventually i got electric start 200 cases for them as well). I think some people think that i do my builds backwards, but i always start with a solid base first...a front disc brake conversion and then a EFL conversion. After that the money is usually gone, so i can't afford a cylinder kit. When that happens i just toss on a stock 200 cylinder and call it good for the next 20,000 -30,000 miles. But when you have a new EFL transmission that is all sorted and a disc brake, you can always be sure that your engine (and scooter) will be ready for a performance cylinder kit at a later date. I've done it the other way around a few times, but i have learned my lesson.
Got confused by this and just realized I have EFL gearbox in my stella as mentioned on my thread:
http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2346140#2346140

Mentioning it here for completeness regarding charliemans discussion about which scoots have EFL vs non-EFL gearboxes. Stella/LMLs are EFL.
Yes, the Stella/LML is EFL...well, EFL "style" that is. The Piaggio EFL and Stella gears and shafts can be mixed and matched. But the Piaggio gears and shafts will be much more durable. That also means that the even more durable DRT EFL gears can be swapped into the Stella as well...if you have the funds, that is.
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Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:37 pm quote
times three, inlet, transfer & exhaust 123
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Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:41 pm quote
Quote:
times three, inlet, transfer & exhaust 123
Hibbert - I suspect you have something important you are telling me - but its as if you are trapped under a heavy object and can't fully reach the computer.

Or perhaps I'm just dense.

Can you elaborate just a touch?
Molto Verboso
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Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:07 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Sime66 was kind enough to give me some targets - suggested 123 degree crank target
That happens to be what the Pinasco available for my cases is.
Like that - but concerned that if I find my rotary pad has been dremeled previously - then I might have too long an open duration in combo with the cut crank. Thoughts?

Given history of this bike - crank is going to get replaced when I split no matter. 60mm and well tuned is target.
I think this crank will work out. There isn't much pad to cut on a VBB.
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Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:26 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Sime66 was kind enough to give me some targets - suggested 123 degree crank target
CM, be a bit careful with your timings; those numbers I gave you were what I had in mind for my build, it doesn't follow that the same would apply to yours with whatever engine your building and your sidecar. I'd ask here, from those who know your build, for better advice on it.

(Also, the 123 was my target Transfer timing, not crank timing; I'd just listen to Jack, who's posted above)
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:31 pm quote
Gents,
Work has gotten the best of me the past 10 days - and when there has been a window - I have chosen to ride rather than type or turn wrenches. Been fun.
Quote:
CM, be a bit careful with your timings; those numbers I gave you were what I had in mind for my build, it doesn't follow that the same would apply to yours with whatever engine your building and your sidecar. I'd ask here, from those who know your build, for better advice on it.
Sime - makes sense. Saw sufficient parallels in mine compared to your target performance - so it seems a reasonable.
Quote:
Also, the 123 was my target Transfer timing, not crank timing; I'd just listen to Jack, who's posted above)
You put it in bold on Hibbert's thread - tho from my post, one might think my reading comprehension/ listening was poor... I plan the dry build and measure method - then adjust (or ignore if its reasonably close).
Quote:
I think this crank will work out. There isn't much pad to cut on a VBB.
Jack - thanks. The Pinasco has a longer opening duration off the shelf (think I have the terminology correct) than the Mazzuchelli I would prefer not to have to cut the crank - ik, hard to imagine there is a part I don't want to cut - so the Pinasco is top choice on this front.

However - just got confirmation from friends across the pond that the Pinasco is std VBB/Sprint taper... Mazz is PX.

Inclination is to go with the Pinasco and live with the taper - unless you guys are waving red flags on that.

Also have to determine if I am going to mount a 24/24 or a 26/26 on top. Will I loose some off the line grunt with the 26?
Are they tough to jet compared to the 24?


Headed for some travel that takes me past scooter center and Sip in a three day window. Hope to tear down the motor before I leave - count the teeth on the cogs, grab the output and xmas tree shaft dimensions, etc. then fill up my bag with tidbits. I will assure the border duty officers - and my wife - that there is no more than $100 of parts.

Looking forward to tackling.
Hell - I still have to make my side car lean!
Lots to do.
-CM
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:18 am quote
I had zero luck trying to dial in my 26-26.
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:00 am quote
Whodat - thanks!
Have continued to search - and continued to find others with similar experience.
Seems like it can be tough.
Sufficient for me - I'm headed to the 24/24 for dial-in-complexity reasons based on what I've seen.

My goal here is to solidify my machine with this rebuild - crank needs to be replaced. So does output shaft.
Since they have to get changed, I am going to upgrade...
60mm for the crank & EFL conversion for tranny.
Variable timing, and a 24/24 will also be added in search of a little more oomph.
Of course I want as much reliable power as I can get from this.

Currently if it's windy or slightly uphill, hard to make the bike climb over 5800 RPM. If I get my 4th gear drive ratio right, maybe I can squeeze a few more MPH out of the top speed on efficiency/power band matching.
As noted previously - it feels a little tall.

Anyone have a guess as to what the HP increase will be of adding the 24/24 and crank? Assume there is at least something left to squeeze out with those upgrades.

Thanks!
- CM
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:40 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Whodat - thanks!
Have continued to search - and continued to find others with similar experience.
Seems like it can be tough.
Sufficient for me - I'm headed to the 24/24 for dial-in-complexity reasons based on what I've seen.

My goal here is to solidify my machine with this rebuild - crank needs to be replaced. So does output shaft.
Since they have to get changed, I am going to upgrade...
60mm for the crank & EFL conversion for tranny.
Variable timing, and a 24/24 will also be added in search of a little more oomph.
Of course I want as much reliable power as I can get from this.

Currently if it's windy or slightly uphill, hard to make the bike climb over 5800 RPM. If I get my 4th gear drive ratio right, maybe I can squeeze a few more MPH out of the top speed on efficiency/power band matching.
As noted previously - it feels a little tall.

Anyone have a guess as to what the HP increase will be of adding the 24/24 and crank? Assume there is at least something left to squeeze out with those upgrades.

Thanks!
- CM
Charlie, with all those new fancy parts your throwing at your smallblock case, you could probably spend about the same amount of money to build a stock 200. Just sayin'...
I guess you'll get a better idea of what your plan is once you split the cases though. But just think...a stock 200 cylinder with a 24/24 carb, EFL 200 transmission with a shorter T5 4th (36T) gear, and maybe drop to a 22 tooth clutch, and a 65 tooth primary. That would get the side car moving up hills. Maybe another gear ratio could be the 200 transmission with a T5 4th, 23 tooth clutch, with a 68 tooth primary? Anyhow, maybe make up a spreadsheet to see how much more a stock 200 will cost, compared to a mild tuned smallblock?
Molto Verboso
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Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:57 pm quote
24/24 will be less power at than a 26/26. Pretty sure thats not the plan.

I think Pinasco crank with small taper will work out ok for this build, as you already got the variable flywheel kit to go on.

There is no way we are going to let this be less powerful than a stock 200. Probably will end up at least 15bhp with all the grinding in the right places.
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:36 am quote
Quote:
Charlie, with all those new fancy parts your throwing at your smallblock case, you could probably spend about the same amount of money to build a stock 200.
Whodat - your a good man for watching out for me! Thanks.
In truth, even if I had a set of P2 cases sitting on the bench right now, it would be hard to let this first motor go. Still the orig cases for this frame - and running so well right now. If the output shaft were not demanding it - I would be working on the side car rig and my welding skills.

The rough math: I will put about $500 in to this. More if you count that nice ignition system and new gears (see what I did there?)
P200 would be $1000 of cases, plus a clutch, and if honest, probably a cylinder and piston. Of course, I might want variable timing and the same set of new elf gears... then there is the exhaust. I could probably get to north of $2K pretty quickly.

But with that said, I am keeping my eyes open for a P2 full bike. I would use the fork for my VBB electric project of the future, and then that motor would be calling my name for a Malossi touring build. But one bike at a time - for now!
Quote:
24/24 will be less power at than a 26/26. Pretty sure thats not the plan.
Jack - I know reckless advise when I hear it - So your on - against my better judgement. I'll do some shopping while Im there and choose a carb. That sound you hear in the background is my dremel warming up.
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:07 am quote
I guess it would be pretty boring around here if everyone converted to a stock 200. All the threads in the NSM section would go something like this..."so i swapped in a P200 engine in my xxxx scooter 6 months ago, and it runs strong at 60-65+mph. It been dead reliable. If fact, i haven't even needed to install any sort of CHT gauge either! Now with all this spare time i have on my hands, (because i haven't been tinkering in my shop because the scooter runs very well) the wife/GF/lady friend, S.O. has me out painting the house and doing land scaping."
Also, all the threads here would be less than one page long. It would go something like this for the tech questions..."i just swapped over to 200 cases in my xxxx scooter. Should i keep the 8" wheels like Ginch did, or convert my front fork over to a 10"? And other questions like..."which box exhaust should i get for my stock 200?" Also.."which main jet should i install in my 24/24 carb, the 122 or 125?"

But i realize that not everyone likes it like that. There are all types here on the forum. Some are tuners, some are street racers, some race on the track, some like to ride only to church on Sunday's, some don't like to ride at all and just use the scooter as a show piece in the living room, and others are day in day out commuters. My thought is that for every tuned scooter that you own, you should have two stock 200cc powered scooters (for when the tuned engine is on the work bench).
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:33 am quote
Quote:
"so i swapped in a P200 engine in my xxxx scooter 6 months ago, and it runs strong at 60-65+mph. It been dead reliable. If fact, i haven't even needed to install any sort of CHT gauge either! Now with all this spare time i have on my hands, (because i haven't been tinkering in my shop because the scooter runs very well) the wife/GF/lady friend, S.O. has me out painting the house and doing land scaping."
Oh man - I had a good chuckle. Mostly because it's true - and funny shit is always based some form of truth that's right in front of your eyes, but hardly noticed.

I'm looking forward to building this thing. It's no accident I'm opting for a new crank and the EFL tranny (you suggested). I'm building in some toughness - but it's true the NSM forum is littered with melted pistons. Hell - Safis's was spectacular in its depth without going through - still don't know how he did it. Craig looked like he left a cigaret burning on the table... For a week. SoCal ripped the rings from the piston like fingernails from a prisoner in some kinda medieval torture, and Swiss, Swiss looked liked he tried to re-forge the piston - while it was still in the cylinder. And that was only last month's list. I'd need another page to cover SubEther's escapades.

The 26/26 carb on the other hand is full of risk and misery. With that said, the challenge has been set and Jack says we are gonna make this thing go - so the challenge is on.

If we make it work - I will title and post - how to jet a 26/26 carb successfully thread. Best I can tell - it would be the first.
If I cross the point of too much time on the bench, not enough time on the road, Ill pull the 26/26, put it on eBay, and get a 24/24.

As for reliability - if I do it right, my electric build will be my super reliable ride. turn throttle - zip forward - every time - all the time. Biggest risk will be: did I remember to keep it charged...

Love NSM and all you guys bring.
- CM
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:56 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
My thought is that for every tuned scooter that you own, you should have two stock 200cc powered scooters (for when the tuned engine is on the work bench).
I like this - a lot!
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:12 pm quote
I know a guy in France who - with the help of Hot Rod Al - is further developing the Vortex carb. It incorporates a proper venturi in the intake, not just a bellmouth and extras. Early testing is looking good.
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:17 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I guess it would be pretty boring around here if everyone converted to a stock 200. All the threads in the NSM section would go something like this..."so i swapped in a P200 engine in my xxxx scooter 6 months ago, and it runs strong at 60-65+mph. It been dead reliable. If fact, i haven't even needed to install any sort of CHT gauge either! Now with all this spare time i have on my hands, (because i haven't been tinkering in my shop because the scooter runs very well) the wife/GF/lady friend, S.O. has me out painting the house and doing land scaping."
Also, all the threads here would be less than one page long. It would go something like this for the tech questions..."i just swapped over to 200 cases in my xxxx scooter. Should i keep the 8" wheels like Ginch did, or convert my front fork over to a 10"? And other questions like..."which box exhaust should i get for my stock 200?" Also.."which main jet should i install in my 24/24 carb, the 122 or 125?"

But i realize that not everyone likes it like that. There are all types here on the forum. Some are tuners, some are street racers, some race on the track, some like to ride only to church on Sunday's, some don't like to ride at all and just use the scooter as a show piece in the living room, and others are day in day out commuters. My thought is that for every tuned scooter that you own, you should have two stock 200cc powered scooters (for when the tuned engine is on the work bench).
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Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:10 pm quote
Quote:
I know a guy in France who - with the help of Hot Rod Al - is further developing the Vortex carb. It incorporates a proper venturi in the intake, not just a bellmouth and extras. Early testing is looking good.
Do they need any Beta testers?

But you strike an interesting point...
So I thought I would garner some opinions for a change.
SIP offers a few options on the 26/26.
There is a Dell Orto that they have bored out & increased the whole size on.
There are two - a G & an E. G appears to have a shorter throat.
I plan to run a bell mouth opening on it.
Like the way that performs particularly at the higher RPMS.
Looks like the G is more desirable - if the benefit of the shorter throat is real and performs well with a bell mouth.

Or...

I go with the Pinasco 26MM which is also drilled out in all the right places- and conveniently comes with a bell mouth on it already. No idea if it is a shorter throat model, if Pinasco knows anything about carburetors, or if it is just a rebadged model G or E from Dell 'Orto.

Screen Shot 2019-09-19 at 10.46.12 PM.jpg
No experience at all with Pinasco carb. Assume it is a rebadged model from someone else? Is it a Spaco? E? G?

Screen Shot 2019-09-19 at 10.47.32 PM.jpg
SIP's G model bored out in a G model. Would likely add a bell mouth.

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