Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:08 am quote
All,
Update on my project.
Trigger warning: purists are not gonna like this.

Picture below is of me, in my back yard.
Why you might ask, is this guy posting this picture on a forum titled Retro Vespa With Side Car?
Fair question.
Answer: Pretty much everything you need to know about my approach to projects is evidenced here.

Explanation by way of background:
I live in sunny So. Cal.
The land of historic droughts and lousy water storage planning.
Conservation is a big, big, deal here.
How big a deal?
People will call the water police on their neighbors for misaligned sprinklers - not kidding - and the city will pay you actual cash to rip out your grass and replace it with astro turf - also - not kidding.
Perhaps all well intentioned - but outcome has been mixed.

Asside: I f*cking hate astro turf.
Its a huge heat sink ~ basically like putting your house in a boiling pot of water by surrounding it with this stuff.
It smells bad, it looks like carpet, and it goes in the land fill by the truck load after about a decade.
It also leaches shit into the ground and off gasses VOC's to the air.
Its basically awful to be around - but It does in fact save water.

Grass on the other hand feels cool between my toes,
Puts out a ton of oxygen in the air,
Is super good at sequestering carbon,
And is just plane nice to stand on.
The down side is - it can be a water hog.

Which brings us to the posted picture.
That machine is a vibratory plow. It’s made to bury cable and electrical lines.
It’s not a ditch witch, and its not a rototiller.
It took an act of god to find one in the heart of Los Angeles.
I modified it to be a riding machine, to turn over the top soil and bury irrigation drip line about 4”- 5” under the soil.
I had no idea what I was doing when I started - half of one when complete.
It was like riding around on a zamboni with a giant spool of drip line getting buried.
Solid for the experience alone - beer tasted extra good at end of those days.

I water and feed the grass now underground - with little drips right at the roots - from the buried tubes.
There is no run off, and no aerosol affect from sprinklers. Zero.
In combination - the system uses about 50% less water - feels great - looks nice - and I have grass.

How is this related to the sidecar project?
Thought you’d never ask.
This is what I've learned about side cars since first posting (thank you to all for the input to date).
1. They are unconscionably slow off the line.
2. Once you get them to speed - you can hardly slow them down.
3. They act like a pendulum - pulling right when you accelerate and pushing left when braking
4. It takes an act of god to get them out of a parking space pointed down hill
5. They wear the tires off your bike like an eraser.
6. Repeat points 1-5 - dude - seriously - why do you want one of these?!
7. They look cool.

The thing is, I wanted to make the ultimate grocery getter for an old guy that likes a little breeze in his face (and grass under his toes). Passion for the project has not waned.
So here is my current concept for sidecar project :

What if I provide power to both wheels - scooter and side car - to address the known short comings.
The only way to do that without some kinda rocket science degree is:
1. Use a single axle (host of style and technical reasons this is unappealing to me)
2. Use 2 electric motors that can be synchronized by a single throttle and two controllers. yup - ditch the 2 stroke and gear box.

No idea if it will work.
Might be impossible to get it to turn.
May pull and push violently.
Might just work.

That said - A little research on the internets shows electric scooters that can reach 40+ MPH that weigh 200lbs+, with a single 3000W motor. Surely 2 of them could match with a 250-300lb rig? (Std VBB weighs ~ 180s?)
The challenge with electric motors is battery power/weight/storage - where do you put them?
But in this case, if I can make a light/stiff sidecar frame/body, I can spend my weight budget on batteries.
The side car is the perfect place to store the extra battery power - allowing me to move some of the weight off the scooter side and get closer to a 60/40 split.
I can also keep it low and close to center to counter the dreaded right turn - providing some ballast.
The electric motors are way torquey - which should make the off the line performance much more pleasant/ improve drivability from that stand point - hack that does a wheel stand?
And… for an extra $10 of cost, I can add reverse - the piece de resistance for a side car rig - cause who wants to push their bike uphill to get out of a parking space on a hot day with their dog looking befuddled sitting in the sidecar.

I’m sure this is full of holes - if I could see them all, I wouldn’t be thinking about trying it.
Ton of stuff I haven’t figured out/ sorted through.
Putting this concept out there for full critique.
Fire away.

Editors note:
1. I am 100+ hours deep on youtube videos of rebuilds/case porting/improved clutch baskets & springs/ dremeling intakes/ shaping cylinder ports/ sanding rings/ flat crucifixes/ etc - and I kinda wanna go there...
2. First underground drip project failed miserably. Total catastrophe. Grass died in a week. Dug up the soil - realized it was too dense to transfer water (who knew?!), modified, replanted… That’s why they call it R&D.

IMG_8347.png

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6941
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:45 am quote
I like it. Maybe you could have the regular motor and a hub motor on the sidecar, best of both! No idea how you would control it though. Also, while you are busy setting the bar, why not create a leaning setup? I'm sure you enjoy a challenge.



Nice story btw. Here in Aus most people just let it go brown and crunchy, it'll come back green later in the year.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1169
Location: Florence, OR
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:01 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Awesome picture Ginch - I love it!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:39 am quote
Thanks Ginch!
That pic IS awesome!
Dog leaning into turn is priceless.

It's referred to in the sidecar world as a leaner.
There's a whole religion within a religion regarding leaners...

One step at a time - phase I is to see if I can just make this thing operate.
Have suspicion it will want to push like mad with all that drive at back wheels - holding leaner concept as potential tool in chest to address.

Anyone know what the make of that particular rig is?
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1551

Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:06 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
All,
Update on my project.
Trigger warning: purists are not gonna like this.

Picture below is of me, in my back yard.
Why you might ask, is this guy posting this picture on a forum titled Retro Vespa With Side Car?
Fair question.
Answer: Pretty much everything you need to know about my approach to projects is evidenced here.

Explanation by way of background:
I live in sunny So. Cal.
The land of historic droughts and lousy water storage planning.
Conservation is a big, big, deal here.
How big a deal?
People will call the water police on their neighbors for misaligned sprinklers - not kidding - and the city will pay you actual cash to rip out your grass and replace it with astro turf - also - not kidding.
Perhaps all well intentioned - but outcome has been mixed.

Asside: I f*cking hate astro turf.
Its a huge heat sink ~ basically like putting your house in a boiling pot of water by surrounding it with this stuff.
It smells bad, it looks like carpet, and it goes in the land fill by the truck load after about a decade.
It also leaches shit into the ground and off gasses VOC's to the air.
Its basically awful to be around - but It does in fact save water.

Grass on the other hand feels cool between my toes,
Puts out a ton of oxygen in the air,
Is super good at sequestering carbon,
And is just plane nice to stand on.
The down side is - it can be a water hog.

Which brings us to the posted picture.
That machine is a vibratory plow. It’s made to bury cable and electrical lines.
It’s not a ditch witch, and its not a rototiller.
It took an act of god to find one in the heart of Los Angeles.
I modified it to be a riding machine, to turn over the top soil and bury irrigation drip line about 4”- 5” under the soil.
I had no idea what I was doing when I started - half of one when complete.
It was like riding around on a zamboni with a giant spool of drip line getting buried.
Solid for the experience alone - beer tasted extra good at end of those days.

I water and feed the grass now underground - with little drips right at the roots - from the buried tubes.
There is no run off, and no aerosol affect from sprinklers. Zero.
In combination - the system uses about 50% less water - feels great - looks nice - and I have grass.

How is this related to the sidecar project?
Thought you’d never ask.
This is what I've learned about side cars since first posting (thank you to all for the input to date).
1. They are unconscionably slow off the line.
2. Once you get them to speed - you can hardly slow them down.
3. They act like a pendulum - pulling right when you accelerate and pushing left when braking
4. It takes an act of god to get them out of a parking space pointed down hill
5. They wear the tires off your bike like an eraser.
6. Repeat points 1-5 - dude - seriously - why do you want one of these?!
7. They look cool.

The thing is, I wanted to make the ultimate grocery getter for an old guy that likes a little breeze in his face (and grass under his toes). Passion for the project has not waned.
So here is my current concept for sidecar project :

What if I provide power to both wheels - scooter and side car - to address the known short comings.
The only way to do that without some kinda rocket science degree is:
1. Use a single axle (host of style and technical reasons this is unappealing to me)
2. Use 2 electric motors that can be synchronized by a single throttle and two controllers. yup - ditch the 2 stroke and gear box.

No idea if it will work.
Might be impossible to get it to turn.
May pull and push violently.
Might just work.

That said - A little research on the internets shows electric scooters that can reach 40+ MPH that weigh 200lbs+, with a single 3000W motor. Surely 2 of them could match with a 250-300lb rig? (Std VBB weighs ~ 180s?)
The challenge with electric motors is battery power/weight/storage - where do you put them?
But in this case, if I can make a light/stiff sidecar frame/body, I can spend my weight budget on batteries.
The side car is the perfect place to store the extra battery power - allowing me to move some of the weight off the scooter side and get closer to a 60/40 split.
I can also keep it low and close to center to counter the dreaded right turn - providing some ballast.
The electric motors are way torquey - which should make the off the line performance much more pleasant/ improve drivability from that stand point - hack that does a wheel stand?
And… for an extra $10 of cost, I can add reverse - the piece de resistance for a side car rig - cause who wants to push their bike uphill to get out of a parking space on a hot day with their dog looking befuddled sitting in the sidecar.

I’m sure this is full of holes - if I could see them all, I wouldn’t be thinking about trying it.
Ton of stuff I haven’t figured out/ sorted through.
Putting this concept out there for full critique.
Fire away.

Editors note:
1. I am 100+ hours deep on youtube videos of rebuilds/case porting/improved clutch baskets & springs/ dremeling intakes/ shaping cylinder ports/ sanding rings/ flat crucifixes/ etc - and I kinda wanna go there...
2. First underground drip project failed miserably. Total catastrophe. Grass died in a week. Dug up the soil - realized it was too dense to transfer water (who knew?!), modified, replanted… That’s why they call it R&D.
I want see you build a side car for that lil' tractor that you're standing on!
Hooked
'13 Buddy 125 Seafoam
Joined: 25 Oct 2018
Posts: 208
Location: Southcoast, MA
Member
Stella 2t / '05 PX 150 / Honda Trail 110
Joined: 20 Jul 2016
Posts: 42
Location: Park City
Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:56 pm quote
Love the idea of two electric motors and will definitely need to see this when you are done!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:56 pm quote
Quote:
I want see you build a side car for that lil' tractor that you're standing on!
WDC - Spoken like a tru Vermonter - you gotta love the cub cadet yellow kohler on that thing?! Seriously - first time I managed to get it to fire - felt like I was in Elmore.
Quote:
Love the idea of two electric motors and will definitely need to see this when you are done!
Aerochip - Thanks brother! Appreciate that. Read below regarding lighting this thing... (no competition with your rig- but have a discount gourmet version in my mind.)

Point 37 - trying to decide if that was a "dude - do yourself a big favor and open craigslist" or a " hey - you can find a lota what you need with something like this!". Either way - thank you for the sage advise, or the head's up.


With that said - time to get this project out of the gate. (insert GIF of kid doing no-hands-ball-racking-crash in front of neighborhood crowd).

Picture below is of a Chinese electric scooter styled as a Vespa - recently discovered existence of these with electric vespa research...

I am buying one. Should take delivery within 2-3 weeks. Mine will be some horrific color found on close out, with low power, wrong controller, and cheap battery technology. Doesn't matter. I'm not buying it cause I want an underpowered plastic knock off vespa. This thing is gonna be part R&D tool/part donor bike.

Aside: IK there is a whole discussion focused on Asian bodge jobs and their well earned inherent shiny danger. However, for those of you who haven't seen these Chinese made "replicas" - they are a whole different kettle of bodge. It's somewhere between pink 70s barbie battery operated plastic car, and... a tesla. Seriously - they are at once toys and some pretty advanced electronics bundled into one.

I will give a boil down on what I’ve learned the past few weeks once I receive my bike - I have bounced off the wall at the end of the internet / spoken to people in China in the middle of the night/ and made my eyes go cross reading about sinusoidal vs trapezoidal controls (we are gonna want the sinusoidal) . Plenty to share here once we get a little further.

Point is - this Barbie-Tesla I am buying, has some stuff on it I could use to learn from.
- For starters, it will give me a 10” hub motor - power spec will be too low - but dimensions are same as the high powered ones.
- I can use this to fit to my Vespa frame (need to get a frame…) and sort out how I will handle the swing arm design, and if I am going to go single or double arm. My style is more fit in place than build to tight tolerance spec on a bench - and it feels appropriate to this particular challenge at least out of the gate.
- I can use what I learn with some simple testing and fitting work - before I plunk down some major $ on some high powered hub motors. I can also determine how a drum rear vs disk set up might fit - Think of this as the dry fit stage. My Barbie Tesla has a drum on it - so it should be a little easier to integrate for first run.
- The other thing is, there is a wiring harness that integrates with a throttle, battery, and a controller. My bike is gonna need one of these harnesses - and at minimum this is a road map to build off of - if I can’t repurpose.
- Finally - I’m not going to have a magneto to run my stuff off of. Have a look at this thing. It doesn’t have Aerochip’s full on lighting array - but its got LED front/rear, along with signals, power supply monitor, ignition, reverse(?), horn, kill switch, etc. That’s all in the wiring harness - and I might even be able to steel a few parts for my build if I’m lucky.
- No idea if any of the other parts are keepers. It's not like the orig vespa drum is anything to write home about - but these may be too light weight for my needs. I'll peal away at the caracas and see if I can make soup with what I can - but it may be limited.

There are so many unknowns for me - if I can use this bike to build up a frankenstein version of my bike (sans side car), I think I can learn some stuff that will help me spec my final product.

So we are out of the gate.
Didn’t know I was gonna start here - but feels like as good a place as any.

As usual - if you have some insights - or just wanna kick the tires on this move - Input is welcome. Tks!

Screen Shot 2019-02-21 at 10.50.54 PM.jpg

Addicted
GL, PK, PE200
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 631
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:45 am quote
So now it's not vintage or a vespa...and why this post is here?

Most that do out of the ordinary projects usually start before broadcasting the "I'm gonna" statements. This guy took a bodge and turn it into electrical scooter. He just did it. http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic163759

Call me when you do something besides talk about fantasies with these old machines. Maybe like buy one first and maintain it. Until then I'm calling bull**** on this thread.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:06 am quote
Rodwyc - the bike you see in the pic is a donor for a motor and mostly spare electrical parts. It will go in to a VBB or PX (now leaning VBB as PX was based on drive train/as well as body stiffness - but wanna go lighter now that I shifted to electric drive.)

It's all about the vintage bike - but I am heading electric now for power plant as I plan to try and drive both scoot and sidecar wheel and need some hope in hell of synchronizing. The link you shared is EXACTLY where I am going with the bike portion - super helpful - though that might not have been exactly your point.

for those that are following and haven't seen it - someone joined the forum 3 days ago, and then posted a converted electric VBB yesterday: 1961 electric VBB

He's sorted out swing arm/break/electrical placement/etc. All the meat and potatoes are there - have a look if interested.

Off to type a note to Resistor - hope he will post some info here for those that want to follow along on this one - would be super helpful I'm sure.
Member
2013 S150; 1961 VBB
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 12
Location: Dallas
Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:08 am quote
I am either proud or embarrassed to say that I learned everything I know about electric vehicles off the internet. I was a bean counter in life, not an electrical engineer (that would have come in handy). That said, people who make electric cars do the kind of motor syncing you are trying to accomplish. And, of course, I'll help however I can.

There is literally tons of data on a website called endless sphere: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/. If you haven't already seen it, look there. Other versions of our lost souls post there and people who actually know what's up answer questions and help fellow hobbyists.

I like your concept and project. Let's make it happen!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:13 pm quote
resistor - given the uncommon combination of bean-counter and self taught retro scooter modifier - I'm gonna guess that's an aptly chosen handle - of a man not incapable of getting in to some hot water (and figuring how to get out)- Welcome aboard!

Shared resource is totally helpful - will definitely check that out - not in my current internet sphere - so great! Good for others who also might be following.

I was just considering rear swing arm when you jumped in.
Looks like you had that custom made from your posting/ already solved (posted pic is from resistor's solution).

If you think your guy would be interested in making a second arm - feel free to PM me his contact info. It'd be welcomed.

All: can anyone provide spot to find width of 150CC motor mount, and center to center for motor mount to rear hub, for VBB &/or PX models? Had a quick search but couldn't find much to go on from internets. Thanks.

img_0741_20457.jpg

Enthusiast
Molested & Abused 2003 Stella 2T
Joined: 12 Sep 2015
Posts: 64
Location: Madtown
Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:07 pm quote
Why re-invent the wheel? Just import this one from Chicago. Gotta love the paint scheme. Actually looks well-done

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/mcy/d/addison-vespa-with-side-car-run-good/6811863187.html
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:57 pm quote
Soooo.
Below are the pictures from an unexpected weekend…
The vehicle had been sitting in storage for 4 or 5 years.
Bought it site unseen within hours of posting over coffee on Sat am - got in my car and went to look.

Original paper work shows it was imported ~2008.
The owner had “stable” in the gas tank - which may explain the redish hue.
Plan is to go through it for safety check - adjust - and see if I can fire up.
(Would take a drink every time the word bodge is used - but would likely end up in a coma)
Any insights on pre-game safety check and first time restart would highly appreciated.


Gotta say - first time I have ever actually looked so closely at a Vespa and the 2 stroke.
What a beautiful machine - even wrapped in orange/silver/& chrome.

Inviting the group to comment on any and all details visible in the pics - good/bad/ugly/uglier. Good luck!
http://gph.is/2cOL3hA

tn_12-BLUES_BROTHERS-country.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-02-23 at 10.16.44 PM.jpg

IMG_8466.jpg

IMG_8382.jpg

IMG_8392.jpg
looks like some oil is dripping down from left side of engine - it was leaning to left when I found it.

IMG_8384.jpg

IMG_8402.jpg
Inside cowling glove box. Are those spot welds from knitted in replacement tail?

IMG_8407.jpg

IMG_8411.jpg

IMG_8414.jpg

IMG_8429.jpg

IMG_8413.jpg

IMG_8440.jpg
screws instead of rivets

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IMG_8417.jpg
looks like new shocks. paper work says same - appears they opted for very stock approach

IMG_8432.jpg

IMG_8437.jpg
first time I've seen - appears to be quick tensioner for front brake?

IMG_8446.jpg
inside gas tank - owner put "stable" in for storage

IMG_8449.jpg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1551

Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:12 pm quote
Bonus that the numbers on both cases match.
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 1708
Location: North Jersey
Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:17 pm quote
Looks like you got a deal. But I think Stabil is only good for a year in gas storage (maybe it originally was two?) But 4 or 5 is a no-go on the gas.
Ossessionato
1979 P200e
Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Posts: 2418
Location: Lock Haven, PA
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:19 am quote
The photo of the wheel with the axle nut and split pin is problematic:

1) The wheel is on backwards. When the wheel is on correctly you only see 5 nuts, not all 10.

2) Since you can see the axle nut, the dust cap is missing.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4750
Location: So Cal
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:57 am quote
This looks really dangerous

Enthusiast
Joined: 02 Feb 2019
Posts: 78

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:57 pm quote
[quote="charlieman22"]
Plan is to go through it for safety check - adjust - and see if I can fire up.
(Would take a drink every time the word bodge is used - but would likely end up in a coma)
[/quote


Oh man, you just purchased a whole lot of misery. I guess it's good that you're not using the engine because the amount of bodgery in those photos doesn't bode well for your bank account. Or your safety for that matter.

If the sidecar is ok and you got a donor frame to play with then maybe you didn't get screwed too badly. If you're deadset on using that frame I would get it blasted to see what evil lurks beneath. And I would definitely rebuild the suspension and not use any fork that appears to be welded together. I've never seen a sidecar wreck but I'm sure it ain't pretty, especially if there is a passenger.

However you seem like you have a fair amount of "play money" on your hands, and you also seem to enjoy solving problems, so this may be perfect for you. Lots of new things to purchase, and many many problems to solve.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:20 am quote
All - Thank you.
side car frame was the no brainer here.
I had been working on my own design and was just about to post pretty pics when I found this.
The company that makes it has a sophisticated adjustment system and the quality of the sidecar build kinda knocked me out when I went over it.
Have never seen one in person until now - was a pleasant surprise.
Quote:
Bonus that the numbers on both cases match.
WDC - Gotta admit - given the two tone - blinged out nature - I was expecting far worse.
Question - any thought about what seals are the likely leak culprit on clutch side of motor? I was leaning fairly heavy that way - looks to me like its coming from left side. Will take a closer look with pics once in my garage.

If you were me - what steps would you take with old gas/oil/etc, before you stomped on the kickstart?
Quote:
1) The wheel is on backwards. When the wheel is on correctly you only see 5 nuts, not all 10.

2) Since you can see the axle nut, the dust cap is missing.
Larrytsg - thanks. good catch. That's the sidecar wheel - not sure why they did that - its got a brake on it - looks like a stock front wheel spun around - maybe to have the tube stem face outwards? Will grab a grease cap as well and have a closer look. Thanks!
Quote:
This looks really dangerous
So cal guy - Agreed - not sure wth is going on with that. Bizarre. Wonder if that was prior owner's work rather than original builder's - or if the cable pulled through a hole? In any event - it is some ugly bodgery by someone! I will look for pictures of what a proper set up is and do some investigation on that one. Thanks!
Quote:
I guess it's good that you're not using the engine because the amount of bodgery in those photos doesn't bode well for your bank account. Or your safety for that matter.
NA - Chuckled on bank account. Indeed.

Frame - I will go over with fine tooth comb for any witness lines - plan to remove tank as well. Bike has been here for a decade. I would expect to find some hairline cracks in paint if any weird flexing was occurring. The side car frame acts as an exoskeleton as well so there is some safety factor.

The fork is a no joke item. Agreed. I may pull and have a careful look. Will post pics of details. The joint around the mud guard seat seams to be a favorite area. Thanks.

Gotta say - general workmanship looked good - much more carefully assembled than I anticipated. Washer stacks, cotter pins, etc. We will see how that holds up when I go over it.

Beyond the choice of paint color and bling - any specific toe-curling bodgery you see or think I should look for when I get it back to my shop?

Thanks to all for initial tire kick. Picking up on Friday - know what I'm doing this weekend...
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:18 pm quote
Pick up bike in am.
Condition:
- looks to have had very low mileage since 2008 rebuild.
(Rebuild specs above in pics)
- sat for last 3+ years - may have had light use prior.
- some seal has a slow leak on gearbox side of motor - but no pooling under bike.
- stable was added to gas tank - perhaps more than once - but close to empty in any event.

Q: What would your top 10 list of steps taken prior to first attempt to fire up?

Thanks!
CM.
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7265
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:57 am quote
figure out WTF is up with your key situation.

check ALL of the connection hardware from the sidecar and double check ALL of the safety fasteners and make sure there is split pins in everything and nothing is all wobbly bobbly.

after that you'll need to rebuild the fuel system first. pull the tank, drain, R&R the tap and lines. same same if it's got a oil tank. pull the carb. strip & dip, refresh all the gaskets, float & needle, clean up the carb box and do the gaskets & rubber there at the same time. throw a plug at it while you're there. fresh mix blah blah blah

check compression (actually do this first). i mean, really you can probably just kick it over and see if there's any.

drain and refill gearbox oil, but i'd run it for a hot minute before jumping on that. less worried there.

general safety: look at them donuts. how are the tires? look for a date code. they're probably some hong-kong phooey that are a billion years old and fucked out. cool to get it up and running but NEED to change out ASAP. those cables are wack as crack. i don't know WTF is going on up fronts (lies and suspicions) but that back cable look straight dangerous. whom ever devised that rube goldberg situmation needs to be hit in the head with something heavy. probably the same for the front.

so tackle the controls. fix. lube. adjust.

if it's been sitting that long, you'll prob need to do clutch plates. yay. do this when you do the gearbox oil. or not if it's not stuck and feels fine? *shrugs*

don't worry about the leak. they all weep a bit. unless there's a puddle under it there's no cause for concern. make it run and ride first.

so you've tackled the part were it should pop and fart and hopefully stop and not blow a tire off and chuck you into oncoming traffic. at least in the test ride thru the cul-de-sac.

give some side eye to all the suspension bits (that front fork is a dumpster fire) and make sure everything is tight and functional.

now the electrical.
~sigh~
give it a look. hope to god that it works
~bigger sigh~
probably need a battery. then, i don't know from there till i see it.

so yeah. make it run first. then see from there.

-g
charlieman22 wrote:
Pick up bike in am.
Condition:
- looks to have had very low mileage since 2008 rebuild.
(Rebuild specs above in pics)
- sat for last 3+ years - may have had light use prior.
- some seal has a slow leak on gearbox side of motor - but no pooling under bike.
- stable was added to gas tank - perhaps more than once - but close to empty in any event.

Q: What would your top 10 list of steps taken prior to first attempt to fire up?

Thanks!
CM.
Addicted
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
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Posts: 551
Location: S.Salem, NY
Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:33 am quote
I think it's a thumb-actuated parking brake
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1518
Location: Veria, Greece
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:03 am quote
I agree with Moto64. If you look closely, the normal cables are also there. The lever on the front mudguard actuates both brakes...
I also think that the whole scooter is from Indonesia and not Vietnam. The cylinder cowl has a Dan Motor sticker, so it could probably be better than a Vietbodge...
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7265
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:45 am quote
i'm in agreement that it's indo and not viet. i'm guessing totally a round tail bajaj. so, not the worst and possibly decent and with room for improvement.

but sweet 6lb 7oz baby jesus with wings and talons are there some markeded safety issues going down.

-g
Addicted
'64 Motovespa 150S (177) , '64 V90
Joined: 27 Mar 2013
Posts: 551
Location: S.Salem, NY
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:20 am quote
That brake lock thing is pretty ingenious , I think.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:39 pm quote
Greasy - your a star!
Thanks for the solid advice.
That will be my approach.

Pics to follow.

It's D day.
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7265
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:28 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Greasy - your a star!
Thanks for the solid advice.
That will be my approach.

Pics to follow.

It's D day.
Nice. Hit me up if you need some parts, I’ve got all that fuel system stuff and if you pull the tank and bring it over I’ll r&r the tap so that you don’t have to buy the tool.

Holler!

-g
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7265
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:31 pm quote
Moto64 wrote:
That brake lock thing is pretty ingenious , I think.
The ordinary of one man is the insanity of another.

~Confucius or some shit
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:53 pm quote
Damn guys - thanks for the input.
Some pretty savvy guesses.

Greasy - awesome - will do.

All:
Had a general a poke around.
Here are the first pics.
1. The delamed white walls are what is looking so scary on the tires (see pic) - its a white wall kit added to std tires (which is used in Indonesia pretty widely). They are wasted - and I will get rid of them and inspect the tires closely for damage to the rubber from gluing. They will get replaced in near future as well - will need tubeless to handle torque from hub motor - stems will likely rip on tubes.
2. The thing on the front fender seams to be a combo parking break and break tension adjuster - you guys nailed that one. It moves with the click click clicking of a high end watch bezel - feels kinda nice - and it works - if not the most elegant detail...
3. Some of that other crazy stuff draped off the front mud guard like mardi gras - is for attaching to a damper that is on the side car. See pic with arrow.
4. 3" piece of sheathing bodged on the end of the cable - what were they thinking? - is actually on the tension adjustment cable - not break cable. Seriously - I can't imagine why anyone would have done that - but I gotta say - given the build quality of the bike - that one looks like some good ole southern California DIY owner bodgery - not Indo restore. Will address right off the bat.
5. Fixed the key. I will update the separate post so people can find the solution quickly if they have the issue. Patience and silicone - not wd 40. See it here if looking: 62 VBB Key won't turn - ideas?
6. That whacky metal armature at the clutch cable is a complete mystery. On closer inspection - it doesn't seem to be doing ANYTHING. kinda suspect it was added to hold something additional that's no longer there?? maybe related to side car? Guesses anyone?! (see pics).
7. Greasy - you nailed the clutch. Seems to be a lil sticky... Gonna have to deal with that one in all likelihood. Good call. I'll start with the tank first.
8. Some good news. Shut off gas and kicked her over. Deep throated chug chug chug from the motor - lotsa resistance from the kick starter. We have compression.

Few other pics thrown in for good measure as well below.

As for discussion on bike origin/details:
The bike is almost certainly an Indo import to the US. What I didn't say before was - the side car was instantly recognizable in the Facebook sale posting - and not in a bad way. The company that does it is out of Indonesia - and they do a pretty sophisticated side car frame. Which I was psyched about .
It has a nice suspension and a slick toe-in adjustment right at the wheel. More on that to come - but that is a cool feature to have.

As for bike history/true model - I am curious. Below pics of the frame/motor numbers and what appears to be stamped registration docs from 1960's. The motor and frame numbers match the reg. docs. I have a decent eye for this stuff - and it looks legit.

I'm not naive - welded in numbers or fake docs possible - but I am holding the docs, and they look and feel like gov't docs from the 1960's...
Danmotors started in '72 I think. Were there any VBB1T with round tail?

Since its not really related directly to my project - I am going to post a separate thread on this one to see if our Indonesian brothers and sisters can help me decipher the paper work.

Had fun driving down to the airport in the stakeside rental truck. Slow off the line, pulled right, pushed left, slight vibration in steering, hard to stop. Just like a side car...

IMG_8574.jpg
Rented this cab over stakeside for $50 + millage charge. All in will be about $100.

IMG_8582.jpg
You can see the delaminating whitewalls. they are just a dressing on std tires. also the weird added armature - what is it?

IMG_8629.jpg
This connects to the sidecar damper. Front looks a little messy with all this

IMG_8617.jpg
Here's a close up of the bodged brake tensioner line

IMG_8630.jpg
Frame and motor appear to match orig reg docs

IMG_8579 (1).jpg
Frame number

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:03 am quote
Round tail VBB
May have our answer - I found this from Eric - made my coffee taste a little better this morning. Some VBB1T had round tail for first half year 1962.

Getting started with my Allstate

Screen Shot 2019-03-02 at 6.56.03 AM.jpg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:29 pm quote
Tank & Fuel Tap R&R
Rainy here - so perfect day for R&R of fuel tank. Don't own proper tool for tap removal - but have a special tool for plumbing that is similar - figured I would give it a go and if it didn't work - would bring in to the shop. Did a nice job in the end - though left a couple witness bite marks...

Some pics below of the key steps.
Notes:
- Some light surface rust existed in the tank.
- Pulled tank. Inside of frame looked great. Few paint drips - but I liked its unfinished nature. No evidence of any prior damage or shenanigans. (anyone know what that stamp says or means in 4th pic?)
- Drained tank using empty bottle and old hamper frame - fit perfectly.
- Inspected fuel hose - flexible and in good shape. Looks new.
- Made a plug using fuel tap gasket, and some sprinkler pipe pvc plug and coupler. Worked great. (see pic)
- Used some "mixed media" (see below) with some gas in the tank and shook - nasty rusty gas drained out - but media wasn't heavy enough/aggressive enough. Woulda been shaking for a week.
- Then looked at my gravel path and thought... those rocks look perfect. took a few handfuls and put them in the tank. Gave it a hard shake on every angle. Gravel was mostly smooth so not too aggressive. Did a nice job.
- Dumped out more really nasty looking gas and rust mixture. Then did a clean gas rinse and shake 2x, emptying between rounds.
- Then used paper towel - put inside drained tank on stand - and used a wooden dowel to steer it all around inside and wipe down surface - it came out rusty colored in areas.
- Sprayed inside with WD40 - coating it thickly - then put another paper towel in and repeated the wipe down. This time it was all but clean when it came out. Tank remained well coated but not dripping. Let tank stand and cleaned up the fuel tap.
- took apart - used carb cleaner and pic tool to get some fine sediment and what looked like some flaking glue from orig manufacture out. Rubber looked great - no marring. Took note of tension on screws and tried to reassemble with about the same - screws sit on a spring clip so there is some hand tensioning.
- Took careful note of the spring clip's tab/stop to make sure it was in the right place so that the handle position would be to stock (blue arrow).
- Put back in tank - tightened with my plumbing tool (good purchase on nut, but a little aggressive (see bite marks... blue arrow). Still - it did the job nicely and securely.
- Put gas in tank and let sit for 30 min - no leaks. Tested tap settings - both worked - no leaking between them.
- Reassembled in bike.

Note - would recommend setting up with ventilation that pulls fumes away from you - there is a lot of open gas containers near you during this job.

IMG_8713.jpg
Plumbing tool was able to use in a fix - on a rainy day...

IMG_8652.jpg
old laundry hamper frame

IMG_8657.jpg
Pulled tank - inside of frame looks ok

IMG_8656.jpg
Anyone know what that stamp says?

IMG_8672.jpg
1/2 pvc sprinkler pipe plug with gas tap seal slid over it and female coupler inside tank screwed in to it to tighten

IMG_8679.jpg
My first attempt before moving to polished gravel "mixed media" :-)

IMG_8678.jpg
tank is ok - but a had a little sediment in bottom - good cleaning in order. white thing is a female coupler, 1/2 pvc sprinkler part

IMG_8682.jpg
rusty gas after draining post internal rock polishing

IMG_8670.jpg
some stuff flaking off - used pic tool and cleaned up

IMG_8710.jpg
Took care to align black spring clamp with stop facing up on reassemble (blue arrow)

IMG_8744.jpg
Two bottles of nasty gas and rust from emptying and cleaning. (third one on left is empty lubricant bottle).

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6941
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:34 pm quote
From what I can see of the frame so far, looks good. It would be useful to get one of those inspection camera thingies that you attach to your phone, and have a look at the internals of the tunnel. That's where most of the strength of the monocoque lies.
Not sure about that "Vimca" stamping, haven't seen anything like that before but Ebeth may be able to identify.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:17 am quote
Quote:
From what I can see of the frame so far, looks good. It would be useful to get one of those inspection camera thingies that you attach to your phone, and have a look at the internals of the tunnel. That's where most of the strength of the monocoque lies.
Thanks Ginch! agreed. That tunnel to headset area is the working end of this thing. The addition of a 300lb side car connected to the middle of it adds a bunch.

I've taken an extra close look at the surfaces top and bottom. No sign of paint crack or stress areas - This thing looks and feels super solid - but a camera would give final confirmation for sure. On it next time I open her up. Appreciated.

Would love Ebeth's input - not sure he has followed this. (VIMCA? VIMGA?) Likely knows the guys that did the work as well I would guess. Wonder if it had a new floor board put in. If yes - they did a mighty clean job.

I know the orange and silver paint job is a reason to look extra hard - was expecting horror story - but this thing appears to be a unicorn. I was kinda knocked out by the quality and carefulness of every thing I have touched so far.

Speaking of the Orange Unicorn, I spent some time on the weekend de-blinging (can you actually de bling a bike that is painted orange cremecycle in color?!? Couldn't it have been white or gray?) See bucket of parts that are in the bin...
- Glove box - how many gloves can one man have?
- Three mirrors (three - seriously)
- Front carrier - It's got a side car for god's sake.
- Parking break - cute - but kinda useless

Also - did a little R&R on the cowl trim piece and tape residue. Much happier.

Next up (short run)- leg shield black trim - gotta go. Handle grips & blue levers...

Considering paint options for down the road.

IMG_8772.jpg
Bike was carrying a full garage sale

IMG_8745.jpg
small dent and wrong hardware holding trim on

IMG_8746.jpg
Tape residue...

IMG_8747.jpg
Sprayed residue with WD40 - then soaked rag in same and let sit.

IMG_8756.jpg
Reduce/Re-use/Recycle
Left trim to soak in old gas to remove tape

IMG_8752 (1).jpg
I agree - that does look a lot like my wife's kitchen water glass holding soapy water to clean off WD40... coincidence I assure you :-)

IMG_8768.jpg
Ahhh - much better.

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:32 pm quote
The orange unicorn flys
(from yesterday)
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 514
Location: california
Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:07 pm quote
Orange Unicorn flys again Part II (side car)
Too much damn fun.
Wife/camera operator seems to have narrated...

(from today)
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 235
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:21 am quote
Lots and lots of fun.

But...

Gloves. At a bare minimum, gloves.

After the semi low speed stack that you will have someday soon, you can have them on, or wish you did.

They're important, 'cos otherwise you won't be able to type here...
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 1708
Location: North Jersey
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:14 am quote
REALLY? THAT'S what your take away from that great video update is? Stop being a nanny fer chrise sakes.

Gt6MK3 wrote:
Lots and lots of fun.

But...

Gloves. At a bare minimum, gloves.

After the semi low speed stack that you will have someday soon, you can have them on, or wish you did.

They're important, 'cos otherwise you won't be able to type here...
Molto Verboso
2009 GTS 250, 2013 Buddy 125, 2014 Triumph Bonneville
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 1708
Location: North Jersey
Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:15 am quote
REALLY? THAT'S what your take away from that great video update is? Stop being a nanny fer chrise sakes.

Gt6MK3 wrote:
Lots and lots of fun.

But...

Gloves. At a bare minimum, gloves.

After the semi low speed stack that you will have someday soon, you can have them on, or wish you did.

They're important, 'cos otherwise you won't be able to type here...
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1551

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:50 am quote
I think i've found a happy medium for you two guys...fingerless riding gloves!

Short story...One of the local guys insisted on wearing fingerless gloves on his go fast moped. Anyhow, during one of the rallys, he showed up after the ride with all of his skin missing from the tops of all his knuckles. I'm pretty sure he ditched the whole fingerless glove idea after that.
Scooting the Ozarks is a scooter rally held in Eureka Springs, Arkansas offering riders scenic twisty rides, poker run, and more.   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   Yelcome Leather Top Cases and Roll Bags for Piaggio Vespa PX LX LXV GTS GTV
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