Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:42 pm quote
Quote:
Any bearing you can get to the inner race, you can throw a little bit of heat at and then draw the shaft in with the puller.
Quote:
Main bearing installed into casing after main seal on clutch half. Use crank puller to draw in crankshaft into clutch main bearing. Use hot plate or oven to heat fly side casing and drop onto other half.
Have watched some vids - but subtitles always come out with input like this.
Many thanks.
Quote:
No. Your exhaust needs a different shape for a different job (sidecar).
Now... its getting interesting.
Ossessionato
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Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:05 am quote
Quote:
Your exhaust needs a different shape for a different job (sidecar).
Avoid this shape.

2752B3B9-F309-4F58-8B2D-E138095D0C36.png

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Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:30 am quote
Yeah - That's what it will look like if I let the Dremel slip a few times.
Best take a steady approach.

Jack - I'm guessing that is not the shape you had in mind.
Below - a pic shot through the exhaust stub -gives pretty good idea of shape.
Unmolested today.

Have some dry assembly and fitting in front of me today.
What are your thoughts on shaping?
(width and measure means as well?)
Tks!

- CM

ex port .jpg
up (exhaust) skirt

img_1371_12842.jpeg
Rubbing from prior to cyl. decking - ignore numbers

Ossessionato
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Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:17 am quote
My guess is that Jack will tell you to flatten the top of the exhaust port and then raise it to hit your desired exhaust timing.

Easiest way for me to figure that out is to adjust the measurement in the timing calculator, then measure & mark for that.
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Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:30 am quote
Quote:
My guess is that Jack will tell you to flatten the top of the exhaust port and then raise it to hit your desired exhaust timing.
Tks!

It's interesting - the Polini outlet has been made pretty open. I wonder weather over time they have updated it to be torquier by making it more open - slightly sharper radii on the corners - to max surface area.

That flat on the top you refer to seems to squeeze a bit more aggressive shape out of it - and I will need to lift it about 1mm I suspect. We will see.

Took a half day to clean the gaskets off. The sealer they used to build worked great - but it was like epoxy to clean off.

Off to dry build and see what kinda measures I get.
The fun part.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 pm quote
The shape for this is wider but still oval. The lower mid range is more important than the top when pulling 3 people a dog and beer to the beach. If the high rpm is not quite enough there is still metal to take off. With this cylinder being shortened, there is not a lot of room to move before its junk. Once the BDC is done too its going to look much bigger.

I drew on the picture of the exhaust port from the rear, as it was the first I found that would do. You'll get the idea. With your 1mm rings you can go to 70% chrord. Which is a target of 47.5mm max arc width (including any chamfer). Be careful of where the cylinder stud holes are, as JB weld won't fix it.
If you think this width is a bit much it isn't. Go back to the first page on Sime66's thread and his BGM was 47mm arc un-molested. This is the appropriate size for the task.

ex_port_sidecar_20622.jpg

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Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:37 pm quote
Jack
Ok - so basically - make it dangerously wide, try not to bore in to the cylinder studs, keep it oval, take it down to the top of the new piston height - and everything should work out nicely. Got it. Thanks!

Must say - kinda remarkable to see how much meat is now available below the piston with the longer stroke crank. Kinda cool. See pic.

Spent the weekend porting and matching cases.
Couple things stood out.

So nice to work with front port - where the walls have some meat on them to grind out. Side ports on VBB cases from 1962 are... let's say... less then generous. Still, managed to get some good volume there. Pleased with results. See pics.

Curious: So much more room at the front port area on these old cases (no port originally at all). Why don't the cylinder makers create a honking big boost port using this area - to increase the charge size in the combustion chamber? (assume there is a good technical reason that has something to do with loss out the exhaust port).

Timings:
After super careful measure:
Exhaust 34.25
Transfers 46.20
Intake: 195 degrees of open.
Headed back to double check my PBT and lock in my base gasket.

IMG_1934.JPG
Lotsa meet to pen up exhaust port bottom edge - with the new Pinasco long stroke crank

IMG_1918.JPG
Shot after I did the side port - before I did the front port. Nice meaty wall that allows front port to be matched.

IMG_1921.JPG
Side port cut - I got the two case half close I shape - then assembled cases and blended to allow perfect match

IMG_1913.JPG
will taper cylinder lead ins to match - note - this without base packer - but gives an idea of the opened up transfers

IMG_1938.jpeg
The 195 measure is taken using a flashlight until it closes off. Pad is a bit worse for wear - but has worked remarkably. Little skim coat of JB weld planned for clean up.

59268305487__352B902B-8D13-4BCC-BA98-2A27124F6754.JPG
Gratuitous beauty shot.

Molto Verboso
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Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:36 pm quote
You have been busy. A way to go yet though. Exhaust port wide, this is what it needs. Be sure to blend it all in way back from the edge.

Are you sure that pinasco crank is giving 200 degrees with that tiny inlet hole?
Would expect it to look more like what I drew on your picture for 200 degrees.
When you JB weld the scratches in the pad, grease up the old crank and ram it up against it until it drys. Comes out all nice and smooth and round, instead of a scabby mess that would have been better left alone.

Side transfers can go up a bit too in the bore. You might want to do the BDC on the transfers too. You're going to need a right angle tool for that. They are a long way up at BDC. The odd mm is of no concern but those look way more than that. As going for more bottom end, if you can get a tool it will help.

img_1938_21428.jpg
This is what 190 degrees usually looks like

img_1913_79285.jpg
Don't go too far. Guessing 5mm max

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Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:13 pm quote
Jack - good stuff.

Re inlet.
- Your drawing and other's eyebrow raises were red flag. Had measured 3 times. Ea. time within a degree. ~196/195 ish. Used Buzzwangle. Accurate - but... on closer inspection - it is counting down from 360 as I turn clockwise when I zero out. Thus 360-196 = 164. Good catch. Thanks.
- Shape of ends and width on your drawing both noted.
- Old crank with grease to create nice smooth surface. Brilliant.
- Now the question - what should target's be

Assume we need to lock in cylinder port timings first - so we have proper buffers between inlet opening and ports being sealed off with rings. Lemme know the 1-2-3 approach and some timing targets. I'll see how close I can get with cyl - then work backwards to inlet.


Porting:
Case transfers/skirt area - noted. Thanks.
I mighta bought a 90 tool already...
Just looking for an excuse to unpack it.
Once I nail my base gasket - and finalize cylinder lift - I'll take both exhaust and transfers down to BDC.
Should that include the boost port?

Measuring port timings is an art.
Have tried veneer calipers with ends cut off back to fit in cylinder.
- Find it is tough with slanted port roof, and getting calipers perfectly perpendicular with no reference as only the tips can go in the ports.

Have used piston top and veneer depth guage - but crown on piston and chamfer on top of exhaust port make that also a tough one.

Finally settled on using old piston rings - sliding in to cylinder while it is off the motor. Using flashlight to view - am able to take the chamfer out of the equation (big on the exhaust port) and transfers can be signed up without worry of the roof angle coming in to play. Just have to remember to add back the ring thickness to the measure (like remembering cotter pins. Important).

With this method - have:
46.52 main transfer
34.24 exhaust port

Assume I do not want to take any chamfer in to account when measuring.
PBT is still a bear to get a good measure of.
It is negative - and small (1.1-1.6) depending on base gasket best I can tell.
Anyone have a favorite trick to get a good measure on PBT when negative?

Thanks!
- CM

IMG_1957.jpeg
Using ring helped give more certainty to port height measure. Also - top of ring is flat - unlike domed piston - allowing caliper to measure cleanly

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Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:44 pm quote
Wow charlieman22 things are looking good. I like your technique using the rings to locate the port height will try to remember that one!

Porting is looking nice. Looking forward to seeing the 90 tool.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:57 pm quote
I get the same PBT. -1.1mm or slightly more. With the new measurements there isn't much to take the exhaust up by. Something like 0.5 mm will do.

The ring measuring trick is going to be fairly close if it's flush with the inside of the port.

Feeler gauges next to the piston works for me with negative PBT.

If the inlet was 190 degrees it would be just right. 65 ATDC.

Boost port BDC would only be for appearances, as squirting towards the plug. Then round the top and out the exhaust to warm up the planet, so we can all have a Californian winter.

Plenty for you to be getting on with. Now don't bugger it up.
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:58 pm quote
Quote:
Wow charlieman22 things are looking good. I like your technique using the rings to locate the port height will try to remember that one!
Im using a flashlight and a magnifying glass in addition - so I can see it in a granular manner. Highly accurate.
That way I can blame Sime66 if anything doesn't work out for me or perform as expected.

Kidding!
Of course I didn't mean that.
I did it so I can blame Jack!

Quote:
Feeler gauges next to the piston works for me with negative PBT.
Great check against my most careful caliper depth check.
Quote:
Boost port BDC would only be for appearances, as squirting towards the plug.
Got it. Wonder if anyone has a design that diverts flow left and right rather than right at the exhaust.
Quote:
Plenty for you to be getting on with. Now don't bugger it up.
That's what JB weld is for.

Update: made a custom base gasket, giving me a PBT of -1.15.

Timings without any grinding of ports:
PBT -1.15
Transfer: 123.04 (jack - close as I could get)
Exhaust: 175.61
Blow Down: 26.29

Inlet timing currently:
TDC = 0
Rotate until transfer closes @ 118.5
Inlet opens 5 later @ 113.5
Turn past 360 until inlet closes @ 307.7
That's 165.8 of inlet opening.
Keep turning to open transfers again ~ 245

Todays question:
What if anything do I do with inlet?
No room at back of pad for opening - only 5 degrees before transfer ports open.
Could open the front maybe another 3 degrees max?
Very thin wall on one side.
Perhaps a very careful grind on the other side to widen?
What is my min limit on overlap of the rotary pad?
Don't really want to start cutting crank...

Or just polish and leave alone?


Thanks,
-CM

IMG_1969.jpeg
Currently closes at blue arrow just below case stud. About 5 degrees left in pad total. Case stud right in the way tho.

Hooked
1984 PX(177)EFL
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:31 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
That way I can blame Sime66 if anything doesn't work out
For once I find myself confident to give advice here, as Jack said:

"Don't bugger it up!"

Seriously, looking good so far CM.

I had my optician make special glasses for me for really close work, focusing about 5", and, after reading Voodoo talking about eye injuries, for this job I have them fixed to safety glasses. Looks stupid, but really lets me get my face into what I'm cutting without swarf-anxiety (with a head torch too).

I use feeler gauges too, as a cross check.

For interest, regarding the flow through the boost port, I found it quite enlightening, whilst washing the swarf out of the transfers, to see which way a water jet flowed; it showed very well the direction and angle of each port - try it. It's for the scavenging.

To do your inlet timing accurately you need to measure both (the crank and the pad) first; it isn't just the total duration but the durations before and after TDC that matter. You may have already done some previous work on this, and Jack's keeping an eye on duration, so I'll leave that alone for now. i noticed Jack's sketch showed work on one side of the pad more than the other, which was thinner; that's why. In that same image, cutting on the left increases before TDC, and cutting on the right increases after TDC. I'm going to go to 2mm minimum pad width on mine; I think you might already be there on the thin side. Previously I've opened the pad first, then cut the minimum on the crank to get the timing right; that's a crappy place to have a stud though, but it seems that normally the before TDC needs most work on non-racy engines. Also, I put the power tools down for the pad, and get the needle files out; slow and steady, and no slips on the pad.

I'm following your's and Hibbert's threads; just don't say much because you have the expert on your case.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:56 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
If the inlet was 190 degrees it would be just right. 65 ATDC.
Third country of the day already, so I'll quote myself to save time. I already said what I would do. Where have you got this transfer overlap business from. it is a thing but you're nowhere near the limit.
Jack221 wrote:
Now don't bugger it up.
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Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:34 am quote
Quote:
For interest, regarding the flow through the boost port, I found it quite enlightening, whilst washing the swarf out of the transfers, to see which way a water jet flowed; it showed very well the direction and angle of each port - try it. It's for the scavenging.
Interesting one. Will check that out.
Quote:
To do your inlet timing accurately you need to measure both (the crank and the pad)
That is actually what I am showing with the numbers in prior post - see below.
Quote:
Inlet timing currently:
TDC = 0
Rotate until transfer closes @ 118.5
Inlet opens 5 later @ 113.5
Turn past 360 until inlet closes @ 307.7
That's 165.8 of inlet opening.
Keep turning to open transfers again ~ 245
This was with the 1.6 base.
So Inlet opens at 113.5 before TDC and closes at 307.7 after TDC.
A physical measure showed that the transfer ports closed about 5 before the inlet opened - and re-open 62+ after the inlet shuts.

Sime - the hand file approach makes a lot of sense in the area of the inlet - that is some pretty critical stuff. Tks.

IMG_1969 2.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:23 pm quote
You are reaching next level with your skills here! Following this thread lately I feel lost with some of these concepts. Keep it up! Can't really to see this thing running again.
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Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:20 pm quote
Below a pic diagram from Sime66 for calculating inlet opening.
Quote:
I feel lost with some of these concepts.
Makes two of us - but some basics have come out in the melee. For example:
Quote:
Where have you got this transfer overlap business from. it is a thing but you're nowhere near the limit.
For a moment - started to think I understood this thing.
Made sense logically to me.
Will avoid applying logic in future.
Is 10 max overlap a better berometer?
Quote:
If the inlet was 190 degrees it would be just right. 65 ATDC
That pesky case bolt right in the center of things is going to limit ATDC and make 65 tough to hit. See pic below. Assuming I have (finally) figured out how to measure, its going to be hard to do much better than 71 ATDC (and partly cloudy).

Using 71 as lowest possible ATDC I can reach, and assuming transfers shut (safely) by 115, I could take the Io side back to about 123?

This would give me ~ 107.5/71. With a duration of 178.5
That might have to be good enough (if it is correct).
Crank is too pretty to start grinding me thinks - and there is so little room on the bearing side - which is where I would need to move it.

Using Sime's sketch - here are the numbers on paper.
I am sure they don't completely tie - but I can physically see on the motor that with the above numbers I quoted, the transfers would close about 8 after the inlet would open.

Sime - should we try that calc again? Ever so close...
Expect numbers not to tie perfectly - but would still be interested to see how close - or far - from my physical measures.
Have found toughest part it matching Transfer port measures once cyl is back on case.

A 72
B 41.4
C 26
D 14.6
E 3
F 123

Thanks all!
-CM

IMG_2001 2.jpeg
Current Io is 112.9 & Ic is 71.5

measuring_angles_without_a_buzzwanker_10435.jpg
Sime's sketch

Hooked
1984 PX(177)EFL
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Posts: 201
Location: Cornwall UK
Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:44 am quote
You've increased 'A' by 20 from yesterday! - that'll be why it didn't make sense.
You're still muddling ATDC with Ic; the 65 target is the 65 in 125/65, it is NOT 65 before TDC on the pad. Because of your (understandable) confusion, I've ignored most of your preamble, and have used your new 'A' 'F' angles, and your photograph, only.

With the numbers you've posted this morning I get the following, which I suggest you use to see if you can achieve the same, rather than take my numbers as gospel; there's been so many different sets of numbers (this is my fourth attempt at making use of your measures), that I'm not really confident with your angles, which is why I suggested you reverted to simple measured angles, not timings - or a muddled combo of both.

Your timing with existing pad and new crank is 110.4/54 (this can be checked by making sure it adds up to 'B' + 'F': 41.4+123=164.4, 110.4+54=164.4) so far so good!

You're aiming for 125/65, so you need 14.6 on Io, and 11 on Ic. (25.6 total).

I can see that the shape of your casings and the stud gives you problems opening the pad.
I'll accept your 123 on the pad as accurate (Note, this is NOT 2 short of 125/)
Using 123 on the pad:
'B' increases by 9.6 to 51
Your timing would be 120/54
You would still need a 5 cut on the crank to achieve 125/

I'll accept your 71 on the pad as accurate (Note this is NOT 6 more or less than /65).
Using 71 on the pad:
'A' reduces by 1 to 71
'B' increases by 1 to 52.
Your timing would be 120/55
You would still need a 10 cut on the crank to achieve /65.

This might help you:
The /55 you'll have is 'E' + 'F' 'A' = 123+3-71 = /55
It's the degrees ATDC at which the crank closes the opening on the pad (Ic), not where the pad Ic is BTDC
geddit?

To check the pad cuts and new timings, we can add 9.6+1 to the pad; that's 10.6. Inlet duration was 164.4, now (120+55) 175.
175-164.4=10.6 Check!

I'm saying you would still need 15 combined cuts on the crank. Pad cuts give you 175, target is (125+65) 190.
190-175 = 15 - Check.
The above established increase was 25.6; have achieved 10.6, which leaves 15 - Check!

Advice on whether you can leave the crank and settle for 120/55 is above my pay scale for others to advise. My personal opinion is why spend loads on parts then half-fit them properly.

If your angles are correct (this time), then I'm fairly sure my calcs are correct, but I haven't checked more than I've shown because I'm stealing an hour of my morning, when I'd intended not to get involved this weekend, so I suggest, as a learning exercise, you see if you can get the same results.

Do not use my numbers to cut check them!

That's all I can do this weekend; hope you make some decent progress, but put the Dremel down and take some time get your head round this part of the job properly.

...and FFS forget about the Transfers, and accept that your Io will be OK relative to Tc, otherwise your target 125/ wouldn't have been suggested.
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:52 am quote
For the two people still reading this - your patience is epic - but you should probably reconsider your life choices.

Sime - Thanks for the slow walk on calculations.
Reinforcement of timings vs degrees.
I'm thick - but not impenetrable.
Got it!

Know you're not a fan of the buzwangle - but I like the tool.
Gives digital readout that ups my precision with little muss or fuss - once understood...
Until this morning - have struggling to understand how to interpret the readings.
Combined with confusion over degrees vs timing = all over the board.
Now have handle on both.


Ok - here are the scores on the doors.
1. Current TIMING = 110.6/52.6. = 163.2 duration
2. TIMING with inlet cut to 127 Io and 71 Ic = 124/55 = 179 duration
3. TIMING with Io 127 and Ic 71, & crank cut at Ic side ~10mm = 124/66 = 190 duration


Measures of inlet opening "B", and crank duration "F" from prior sketch:
B = 40, B= 56
F = 123, F=134 (calculated)

Quick math(s) check to confirm 1-3 above.
1. (B=40) 40+123 = 163
2. (B=56) 56+123 = 179
3. (B=56) 56+134 = 190** (estimated 11mm crank cut on Ic side)

So approach will be to cut the inlet first - then do a physical check and adjust crank accordingly*

Jack - what say you about #3 above? Taking ~10mm out of Ic side of crank.
Comments?
Tricks of the trade for cutting crank?
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:54 am quote
Im still reading too and thought the buzz tool might be adding to the interpretation but you are also covering other topics so its good. Glad you are back on track. Is the rod on the Pinasco crank nickel plated?
Hooked
1984 PX(177)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 201
Location: Cornwall UK
Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:29 pm quote
Well done.
The maths is simple once you understand the theory isn't it; it's just addition and subtraction of angles. Of course you also need reliable measurements to work with first!
Having said that, I'm not going to check your tweaked numbers; you have sole responsibility for your measurements and calcs now.
I have no problem with the Buzzwangle, but I felt you were taking a shortcut before understanding the theory, and getting into more of a muddle as a result, when keeping it simple would have been easier (for everyone) to follow and spot where you were confusing yourself, and easier for you to learn the basic relationship of the angles in pad and crank to Inlet timing. When I'm learning something new, rather than just wanting the right result to get on with it quickly, I want to start from basics and understand it, which to me in this case is knowing the pad and crank angles as step 1. Whatever works best for you, is the best way for you; I won't be changing my method.

Two practical comments on your findings:
1) Cutting Ic on the crank is a piece of cake; Hibbert just did a lovely job on his. Make sure you wrap and protect your bearing from any swarf. I found the best way to make the cut, after measuring and marking accurately, was to use a cheap cutting disk on Dremel to cut that mark first. (look at Hibbert's images; it's exactly how I did it before too, though his is prettier, which I suspect is important in California.
2) Looking at your photo, I'm dubious about you fudging your Io cut to 127 to avoid cutting the crank; it looks highly likely you'll be out the back of your casings and buggered. Given the choice I'd be cutting the Io on the crank instead; it isn't as bad as it seems; you've just done precision cutting on your barrel, so grow a pair and get it cut; same procedure, cut down with cutting wheel first. I think it's safer than squeezing more out of your pad where you're suggesting. BUT you have the casings in front of you, and I'm just looking at a photo. I'll find a photo of when I cut Io on crank a few years back.

Cheap discs like these, they're very fragile, and wear quickly, but give a good sharp straight cut:
https://www.amazon.com/Refaxi-36pcs-Cutting-Mandrel-Rotary/dp/B07DR2LGQW/ref=sr_1_66?keywords=Resin+Cut+Off+Disc&qid=1571513786&sr=8-66

crankcut.jpg
This is the crank I cut right round the bearing over four years ago on the engine I'm still running around on now; 4 off Ic and 12 off Io, perfectly doable you'll only need 4 or 5. Sorry; no nickel plating here.

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Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:28 pm quote
Quote:
) Cutting Ic on the crank is a piece of cake; Hibbert just did a lovely job on his.
Coincidentally - had just done a re-read myself.
Now having untangled my own - hibbert's is that much more impressive - and helpful.

I am fine with cutting the crank if that is what's needed. It often comes down to having a depth of understanding - which Sime's calc walk was very helpful providing.
Quote:
Looking at your photo, I'm dubious about you fudging your Io cut to 127
Well - you are half right - but the half you missed on was due to my lack of understanding on measuring - and your radar is on track.
The pic I previously posted was misleading - see below.
It labeled 127 as 124. I hadn't sorted out how to properly measure yet...
So reaching 127 might have been more doable than thought.

Which brings us to the next hurdle.
The carb stud on my cases precludes really any expansion of the Io side of the inlet at all... Unless... I allow myself to break through the case to the stud channel.

See pics below.
Options I see:
1. Don't expand inlet at all - only crank. Clean up edges and widen where possible. Call it a day.
2. Make an asymmetrical shape in the pad - avoiding the stud. Has anyone every gone with this?
3. Allow carb stud hole to be cut in to - sealing off with JB weld after completing the shaping - see stud depth on photo below.

This is a low pressure area. The stud can be put in 100% of threads and still leave room below - but stud hole will be pierced for certain with 3 and maybe with 2.

Any one solved/ seen solved previously?

Editors note: if you think I had trouble calculating the timing before - wait til we try and work out 50% extension!

IMG_2015.JPG
Stud goes to blue horizontal line on side of case. Pad looks worse than it is. Very superficial scratches. Inlet was cut by blind man with a knife - before I got it. Plan to clean that up once direction is determined.

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Honda elite
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:53 pm quote
The mock up looks good charlieman22. I was too nervous and shy to do any side pad work. Take your time and dont get too eager. You have the same concerns I did about the studs again just first work your tool to your line, that you can do without puncturing the stud cavity. Then work slowly getting more depth and shape. I used a dremel and sanding drums coarse and medium not stones or cutters kinda felt like I was cheating. its amazing how much they can remove and provide an almost perfect finish plus the diameter was the perfect shape. Used more files on the ic side used dremel to excavate, at io side to make shape. Once this is finished youll have a better idea on what is decided for the crankshaft.
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:48 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
3. Allow carb stud hole to be cut in to - sealing off with JB weld after completing the shaping - see stud depth on photo below.
This is what I did. Works.
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Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:38 pm quote
Thanks gents!
Ever so helpful.
Finally getting back to a bit of carving and welding. J.B. welding.

So while we are at it...
Noticed a bit of an issue that may require some machine shop TLC.
Wonder if anyone has run in to this before - knows how to address.

When I removed the old crank - I noticed a shim about a few thou thick on the clutch side crank stub. Didn't think much of it.

However - today I noticed that the main bearing race is sitting a hair low on one side - instead of flush. Now wondering if that shim was to keep any interference from occurring between crank web and case inner on the sides (large round flats).

I am using a delrin dummy bushing that is a snug fit - and I had the flywheel magnets bolted on end of crank so it was heavy. Its been there for a few days - I may have pried the race myself working with it by accident. Unsure.

Question: how can I right this race - and do I need to? should I repeat the tiny shim and with what? Thanks.

- CM

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Shim on original crank. Believe it was on this side - though could have been on the other/both.

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Lower red arrow points at side that race edge is sitting a hair low/ not flush with aluminum surround. upper red arrow shows witness scuffing - though I may have done some of this with the new crank.

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:44 pm quote
Option 2.5 would be the easiest. Go for 124/60 without cutting the crank. There is enough metal in the casing to make this work. No issue cutting into the studs. If they are fitted you can cut into them at the same time and it all comes out smooth. Any gaps JB weld or not bother.

The width does need to be as wide as possible. 1.00mm overlap with the crank web is essential. Aim for 1.50mm and there will be some room for error (not that there will be any but hey).

Before getting to this though you need to dry fit the new crank and bearings and see if the new crank needs US bodgery instead of the Indo bodgery. Once decided on the lateral position of the crank draw through the inlet onto the web to see how much overlap there is before cutting anything. probably plenty but better to check first.
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Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:00 am quote
Thanks Jack.
At that point where its all about the details.
The previous inlet porting work was kinda ragged.
I look forward to cleaning that up.

Quick sketch below shows challenge on Io side of outlet.
Plenty of pad - but due to that bolt - would be super shallow to reach 60.
In fact - anything past ~71 will be pretty damn shallow.

2 Questions then before I head off to a Sunday or project work.
1. Does it really count if I have to go this shallow? To hit 60 I would have a long shallow section
2. On case where scuffing occurred - am I safe to cleanup that flat with some fine sandpaper before fitting the bearings and crank? are clearances between that surface and the crank in any way mission critical?

Thanks all.
-CM

IMG_2001 2 2.jpeg
Also - tiny particle of aluminum looks to have been high RPM welded on to side wall... doesn't touch crank but OCD makes me want clean it up.

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:43 am quote
I just grind into the studs. To get an ok angle it will hardly cut into it.

Clean up as you like. Won't make any difference either way.
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Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:40 pm quote
Been a bit since last post.
Work demands had me on the road.
Clearly - I need to get my priorities straight.

Have made some progress with inlet and cases.
Perhaps some pretty pictures for tomorrow.

In the mean time - could use a reality check.
DRT has some "interesting" instructions which come with their parts.
Each gear is purchased separately. Each has different information in the packet.
Like toy surprises in a cereal box.
Sorry - you have to buy another gear to get information on how to fit these together.
Sadly - some come with no instructions at all - poor kid.

Think I have it assembled right.
Larger gap between 2nd and 3rd.
Not sure how the selector box is ever going to be adjusted to hit those?
Anyone else with experience here?
Isn't this going to cause shifting nightmares?


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Note gap between 2nd & 3rd. Came with a .8 and 1mm shim - which is ironic - because it seems to say that it takes a .95 shim on the 4th gear side... Hmmm. Used the 1mm shim there.

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Instructions packed with 4th gear - explains in Italian that when put with their 3rd gear - will be a bit thicker - best I can tell

Screen Shot 2019-11-02 at 12.15.14 AM.png
Ahh - if you don't buy 3rd - you don't get the stack picture. Unfortunately, there is no chamfer on 3rd gear as shown in said instructions... but hey - at least there is a picture!

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:51 am quote
Interesting, so first is thick like the fourth on yours and mine, but second and third look to be normal thickness. Wonder why that is. Also I don't think you are supposed to use shims included between each gear. But I'm not positive about anything with these drt gears. You have the old gearbox right? BTW you might have 2nd gear flipped and installed backwards? That makes the gap between first and 2nd shallow and between 2nd and 3rd larger when installed backwards (I believe). The gap between 2nd and 3rd I think by default visually looks a tiny bit larger, but not like that. In fact, if you compare the gap between 2nd and 3rd on your DRT diagram with my picture, they look to match spacing. It's also hard to tell from the angle of your photo. Try to get one more direct top down instead of slightly angled. It helps to double tap to optically zoom in and then hold your camera further away, to remove any wide angle distortion and get a straighter more accurate picture of it. Here is my old gearbox stock gears for example:



But someone else here is probably way more qualified to answer. I'm just going by some info I watched in a video somewhere (I forget whose video), where they said its easy to tell if you installed gears backwards because the spacing is uneven, so just flip the uneven ones and re-install until all the gaps are even (works as long as you make sure you installed 4th gear correct side towards the wheel location).
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:37 pm quote
Swiss - Thanks for the pic!
Looks to me like there is a larger gap between 2nd and 3rd than the other gears on yours.

Below some better pics of the two configs I have tried.
Config 1:
- Put the flats pointing outwardly on 1st and 4th. This makes sense as they ride on the spacers and thus won't snag. Spacing looks to be equal be tween all - but I have to use 2 spacers on the top to take the play out - this config seams a little too compact with very small space between gears.

Config 2:
-Using the DRT picture which shows direction of chamfers on gear edges. This set up gives a larger gap between 2nd and 3rd. It keeps 1st gear like I had it (flat faces outwardly to spacer) however, it flips 4th - which means the indented side of 4th faces spacer. This config scrapes and catches on the circlip (I would have to use at least two spacers here to make sure it cleared the circlip). Doesn't seem right.

Anyone have any comments or insights they want to share from past experience with DRT? At $100 per gear, maybe they should have printed a "this side up" mark on it rather than their fancy logo. Just spit ballin' here.

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4th gear "flat" side

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4th gear "indented" side

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1st gear flat side

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1st gear indented

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Config I: 1st and 4th "flat" sides face outwardly.

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Config II: 1st gear flat faces out. 4th gear flat faces in toward 3rd. This config is determined by matching the drawing from DRT that shows chamfer at the edge of gear teeth pointing in certain directions. Spacing also kinda looks like their pic - but

Screen Shot 2019-11-02 at 12.15.14 AM.png
This pic from DRT kinda looks like Config II. If right - I will need to double up shims on 4th gear end. WTF would DRT sell cogs and provide spacers too thin to do the job - and fail to explain that in the instructions? Not sure this is right.

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:43 pm quote
I have a full DRT transmission In my T5 (I installed about 10 years ago), but Im not going to disassemble it to see what is flipped to what. When I installed mine it was fairly straightforward. You will need the larger gap between the 1st and 2nd gear because thats where neutral is. Maybe line up your gear cluster with the gear stack to see how well it all lines up on the work bench?
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:32 pm quote
Who dat - Tks!
Hadnt considered neutral.
Ok. Another clue.

Im going to dry fit and look at the shifter box. Maybe the gaps are or are not equal on it.

FMP Vid suggested they should be evenly spaced - but thats with std gears. I have these DRT cut from rare metals and shaped on the thighs of virgin Italian girls - I am presuming based on cost per cog.

PIA to dry fit this and check - but dont have better solution at this point.

Thanks for weighing in!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:47 pm quote
After looking at the DRT instructions, it does look like that the spacing will be different than what an OEM Piaggio gear stack would be. So Swiss's picture is how a stock stack is supposed to look. Maybe that extra wide 1st gear is so that is can handle more of a torque load that a 4th gear would never see?

The way the shiming works on a standard NON-EFL, is that you shim it up one just one side so that it's the correct gap. On the EFL it's the same thing...you will want the correct gap, but you'll also shim the whole stack to either the left or the right end of the axle shaft. The point of that is to line up the loose gear stack with the gear cluster more accurately than the older NON-EFL transmission.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:08 pm quote
Since you have all these gears loose.. can you take measurements of the inner tooth to outside edge/lip distance on the chamfered side of the teeth to get the depth of that inset inner tooth? That is where I was measuring old vs drt gears. Wondering if your fourth shares my measurement, and how the other three gears related to that, if they match or are slightly different.

I think that depth is what defines the shifting of cruciform.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:19 pm quote
I have limited experience of young virgin girls gear cogs but config II looks nearly correct, just 3rd is round the wrong way.

When you do finally get all the cogs in a row, shimming left or right is a thing. When the gear selector is fitted for it to do the best job (and last a while longer), a variable amount of selector gaskets are fitted to make it all line up just right.
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:07 pm quote
Quote:
I have limited experience of young virgin girls gear cogs
Well - of course you haven't. The guys at DRT are hoarding them all - though it is not clear to me any of them know how to configure an output shaft.

Below - bottom pic - Config III - third gear flipped. Now the gap moves between 3rd and 4th.
If I then flip 4th - it becomes config I. You can't make this stuff up.

Noted fine adjustments for optimized alignment on dry build. Thanks guys.

So in order to do so - I began dry build.
Tried to shoe horn larger Lusso primary in but met limit about 2 mm from on center with hole in case.
After much machinations - found the limiting factor. See below.
Plan is to shorten new xmas tree shaft - will need machinist to do some magic.

IMG_2156.JPG
Xmas tree in place - mighty snug fit. Should just work. However - this is without the center shaft in place.

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Flipped over - now looking at it from clutch cover side. That is the center shaft of Xmas tree that can't quite align with case hole. Too long - interfering and cant slide it any further into xmas tree to create space

IMG_2154.JPG
Here is the culprit - pokes out proud of bottom of xmas tree cog set

IMG_2162.JPG
On the left, the original bearing and xmas tree shaft. note lengths align at bottom end - but above bearing, new one is longer.

IMG_2158.JPG
Here is the new one in place with bearing bottomed out on case - no xmas tree gear. Pokes out of case too far - good thing - means I can shorten. Should allow me to assemble baring other interference findings

IMG_2163 3.JPG
Config III. Tried flipping third gear - created gap between 3 & 4. If I then flip 4th gear - I have config I.

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:49 am quote
Now 2nd and 3rd are both the wrong way round. Maybe the other half was right before.
The flat side of 1st goes to the shim. And the indented side of 4th goes to the other shim. The rest doesn't have a lot of options if you really must have a neutral.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:10 am quote
CM: Here's the correct order for the gear cogs. As for the axle. Don't machine it. Your problem is not the axle. As I see it from your pictures, you first need to make room for the primary to fit in the cases. The axle just needs the washer and the securing plate from a P/PX...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/washer+input+shaft+_16616000

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/securing+plate+input+shaft+_16305000

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Location: california
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:26 am quote
Ok - terrific input - have it sorted.
Believe it or not - Config II was right.
Explanation below.

Jack:
Quote:
the indented side of 4th goes to the other shim
This was counter intuitive because of the interference issue with the circlip. But it is correct and a critical detail. See below.

Safis:
First - thank you to Mrs. Safis for allowing her dining room table to provide you space for my tutorial.
Editors not: Mrs. Charlieman22 is traveling - so her counter top is also seeing some use.

The DRT gears are very different then the stock which was throwing me. Once assembled - stack looks very different from outside - however the key detail was understanding that the inner part of the gears is what I should be paying attention to. That was a game changer. Thanks! See below.

As for Xmas tree fit issue:
Safis - much appreciated heads up on washer. I can certainly use one. However - my pics may be bit misleading. I have fit the xmas tree to case - using no shaft. It has clearance in the case. The picture (reposted below) showing shaft nearly aligning with hole - has xmas tree tilted and at max position due to interference with case when tilted. Need to be able to slide in to place more flat - meaning that extra length on the shaft is an issue for fitting it in.

I'll ponder solution - but think I need that shaft to be a touch shorter or I will have to grind sensitive areas of the inner case I would prefer not to risk.

IMG_2172.JPG
Laid out gears and examined both of their sides vs images form Safis

IMG_2174.JPG
Here is fourth - side "A" let's call it. I thought it would go towards circlip because flatter. But note - it has the raised area to separate third gear.

IMG_2175.JPG
Here is side "B". It's got the "indent" Jack noted. This will go toward circlip

IMG_2181.JPG
Side B - indented side of 4th. Circlip will interfere if I don't grind it a touch, or elevate it with a spacer. DRT's own circlip - used here - is incompatible unless heavily shimmed. Don't understand why they even have those tabs on there - don't seem

IMG_2182.JPG
Now paying attention to spacing between these center ribs rather then looking at cogs from outside. Great explanation Safis!

IMG_2180.JPG
Final stack... Matches DRT drawing... Config II.

Screen Shot 2019-11-02 at 12.15.14 AM.png
Orig drawings. Note it shows 2nd gear chamfer at cog gear tip - only my 2nd has no chamfer on either side. Look back at SIP shows that gear is new - instructions are likely old

IMG_2142.JPG
The Primary gear and stack are tilted here - and I cant rotate them to flat because the shaft is hitting. Just not quite enough room without shorter shaft - or grinding of the back of the crank shaft encasement - which I would prefer to avoid.

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