Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:19 am quote
Thanks gents.
Quote:
Wizard’s sleeve a.k.a. Clown’s pocket.
Oh - should have just said so to start with...

Bearings are matched clutch side and fly side.
25/62/12.
They fit nicely in the case - if I press them in on before I put the crank in.
Just means I would then have a gap between inner crank web and bearing.
Clutch side seal does in fact rest on the proper surface - so should be okay there.

Wonder if this is why the book says you should mount bearings to crank first.
Even though I had not done this on the clutch side - it would still get pulled all the way in flush as it is now as it goes in first.

Additionally - you have to pull the crank in flush - or close to flush - or the crank web would not align with the inlet hole.

Fly side - well - guess I will have to decide if I am going to gap between seal and bearing - or between bearing and crank - and that it was designed and built that way at the factory. Would welcome more input on this as to what was done new.

BTW - realized I had not posted the solution for the drive shaft.
Just to leave the record of how that was solved - see below.

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Original EFL output bearing surface near selector box was about .5mm larger than old - would not fit ID of output shaft bearing

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Found machine shop that modifies crank shafts. Instead of a lathe, they use a grinder - gives that high polish look - very fine. Makes the shaft fit perfectly like from factory. No issue with metal hardness - apparently this is how they do crank shafts

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Honda elite
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Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:58 am quote
here is a picture of mine, if the bearing was all the way IN it would close the lubrication hole.

9E0A7CD0-B24E-4F16-8605-36AF2B912262.jpeg

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Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:27 am quote
Hibbert - thanks! Appreciate you digging that pic up.
Agreed - appears to be a similar gap.
Helpful.

Travel will interrupt my build this week.
Perhaps I will also make a general post on this to hear what the other builder's like to do about the trade off's of fully in the case vs flush to crank & or shimming.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:29 am quote
Charlieman22 I spent the last week or so going through your entire thread, absolutely amazing. When I got to the section of AFR's and dynotuning I just about spit my coffee all over the keyboard.
Plow onward brother, your research and resilience is second to none.
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Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:26 am quote
Lynnb - many thanks.
Have been following that crazy floor board replacement you are tackling.
Kinda amazing.

Return to LA today - with intention of getting back on track through the weekend.

Jack - porn innuendos aside - we last left off with you challenging me to make the exhaust port dangerously wide if memory serves.
Since this is delicate work - perhaps I should confirm what width measuring you were proposing before I get to the final hone.
Quote:
The width does seem to stop at about the same point that Swiss did. 62%. Need to get up to at least 46mm. The difference between 62% and 68% is quite a lot more in terms of area, costing nearer 10% in torque. Which is bad by the way.
Quote:
Liking the grinding but not liking the width. 42.9mm is still un-impressively small. 47.5mm is the max, so anything 46.0mm and over is going to be acceptable. Nice oval shape. Looks symmetrical too.
I have a bore diameter tool I can measure cord width in place - saves me from tracing repeatedly and mediocre measuring on flat paper.
68% * 63MM = 42.84mm.
46MM you noted above would be trace and lay flat method I am trying to avoid.

Do I have the math and means of measure correct with the bore gauge at 42.84 of ill-advised cord width in place?

Screen Shot 2019-11-29 at 8.17.07 AM.png

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:54 pm quote
43.5 is the max. Although even the 70 % isn't a limit, just a guide. If you get to 43, then do the final few measurements flat. You will have the confidence of not going over. With 1mm rings it will go a bit over but try to get as near as you can.

Still on target for running by Christmas?
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Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 pm quote
Quote:
Still on target for running by Christmas?
Harsh but eminently fair.

In truth - now that I've sorted it out - this shoulda been about a 1 week job.
I have wandered my way through this using the brail method.
Kinda amazed I have gotten this far with all my fingers in tact.

1. Output shaft bearing size differential - Lusso output shaft is .5mm different OD than VBB bearing ID. Turns out that's a lot when fitting bearings. Who knew? In hindsight, final solution was the obvious one - have a quality grind done to the output shaft journal - but took me some time to untangle.
2. Alignment - fine tuning/fitting parts together from three different decades - whack of high quality German shims in variety of ID/OD ended up being a life saver. Luckily - purchasing approach left me enough in stock for another dozen motors...
3 Bodge cases - No idea why I was so married to them - but in for a penny... They were the original cases to the bike - so wanted to stick with them. Took some time to find all the subtle issues and massage back to health.
4. NFI (hint: rhymes with No F*!king Idea) what I was doing going in. But hey - that's a constant with my approach... and NSM forum can save a man when drowning - as long as you can put up with people asking as they throw you the rope - "WTF were you doing in the water if you didn't know how to swim?"

Managed to assemble the cases this afternoon on return to La.
No binding - things seem to be solid - will see if it all sealed nicely when I pressure test.
Last bit of grinding and honing of cyl tomorrow - will see how it all comes together over the weekend.

Tks,
-CM
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Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:56 pm quote
Tidying up the cylinder ports - which is to say - carving recklessly large holes that leave the cylinder wall looking downright skeletal.
Hey - I bought iron so I could carve - so I'm carving...

Sime66 mentioned it was interesting when he ran water through the ports - so while I was washing out the grinding dust - I shot a bit of video for everyone's viewing enjoyment.

Kinda cool how you can see where each port is aimed.
Note the boost port - fires right up at the head.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
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Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:22 am quote
OK, now that just hurts!

Please put URL tags around a SECOND YouTube link so we poor Chrome victims can see and I do wanna see this spectacularly informative waterworks display, again pretty please?
Same w/ Opera, phone or laptop.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
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Addicted
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Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:39 am quote
Apologies!
Thanks Swiss!
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Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:26 pm quote
oh snap!
Cup of coffee brewed.
Bench cleaned.
Tools nicely organized.
Time to finish up the cylinder and assemble!

Everything coming along nicely - until... SNAP!
Apparently my spacers point loaded the holes in the cylinder.
Guess I should have put the head on when I tightened the nuts...
Ouch.

Went ahead and finished assembly and put on pressure test.
Seems to hold.
First look at the crack shows jagged edge - though most of the sealing area seems okay.
Each jagged edge is a point of future crack propagation though - so like cancer - I would have to grind it back to smooth if I have any hope of saving this thing.
SoCal suggested I could even JB weld the fin back on - which I laughed at - but after a beer - is sounding like a pretty good idea now.

Tomorrow will disassemble and see if it can be saved with open heart surgery.
In the mean time - here are the pics of all the work I did to the cylinder prior to my poorly considered torquing.

- CM

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Transfers opened up - cylinder wall taken up about 8mm - but rings will not reach this depth. Cylinder looks more like one of the modern ones now - very "skeletal".

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No trumpet here

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Polished and honed. By polishing the exhaust port prior to honing, chamfered edges can be made baby bottom smooth - rings will be happy

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~45mm width - wing and a prayer. We will see if that is a sustainable opening... In the mean time - it should breath nicely.

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Disaster. Spacer's were too much local load (point loaded) on the cylinder. Had torque wrench set to 10lbs - which was about 2lbs too much - apparently... Note large crack.

IMG_2551 2.jpg

IMG_2552.JPG
And yet... she holds air.
Stay tuned...

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:47 pm quote
Unfortunate but fine. If only they sold washers in CA. When doing damage its always the work I think about and not the money. Lot of time and effort goes into a cylinder. This will be fine, seen way worse run for years.

45mm will do. Its your first go and quitting while ahead should seriously be considered.

4 gears and a kickstart working. Should be quite a scooter.

Even after 4 decades of closing 2 stroke cases, its still a nice feeling when they hold pressure.

The game is won and lost during the jetting. Keep focussed until the end.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
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Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:46 am quote
Ouch.

But not really. You can obsess over the flaw, or crack on (see what I did there) and see what happens when it runs.

We (and you) all know this is just a gateway cylinder anyway. You've bought all the tools, are generating the skills, and you've been getting on first name terms with the pushers parts vendors.

Make this one sing, roar, and humm, we (and you) all know that about a month after you've got it perfect, you'll take off from a set of lights, think "Nice, butttt, what more could I do?" hear the Malossi/Quattrini/Pinasco/BFA whisper in your ear, and end up with a browser like this...

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Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
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Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:28 am quote
Hell.. That sucks! It never crossed my mind that was a possibility. I will think twice about torquing down bolts like that forever now. Looks good otherwise! Grind is excellent.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:05 pm quote
Sucks indeed! I think that the M7's should be about 13 ft/lb's so you should be within the limits by a reasonable amount, must be something else going on there? Yeah JB it up and move on.
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Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:54 pm quote
Quote:
When doing damage its always the work I think about and not the money
Bullseye
Quote:
That sucks!
Quote:
Sucks indeed!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Quote:
"Nice, butttt, what more could I do?" hear the Malossi/Quattrini/Pinasco/BFA whisper in your ear, and end up with a browser like this...
Hahaha! - where is the camera?

Was good to wake up to the encouragement - so with that and a few cups of jo - she went under the knife at about 8:30 this morning.
Surgeon had to stop to make a few calls and pretend like he was doing his day job occasionally.
Glad to report - end of the day - surgery 's gone well.
Gonna leave a scar - but kinda like it even more now!

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It's like gangrene. That rust was just from the soapy water leak test spray from last night. Given a short time - cracks will propagate from each tiny jagged edge of the break

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I cut back the break with a cut off wheel on a Dremel. The right side had cracked but not all the way through. So I cut it just enough to take away the jagged edges on that side - the left side had cracked all the way through

IMG_2564.JPG
Then I sanded and polished - taking care to round all corners and edges. Note the bit of porosity near the bolt hole. Suspect that was the point of the break - likely from original casting. Broke all the way through from that point to the left.

IMG_2567.JPG
Re-assembled & torqued. Note the 8mm shoulder nuts. One cyl. stud had to be upsized to 8mm due to time cert/case strip (chrome). So used larger conversion studs that are 7mm one end,8mm other for other 3 holes - but flipped so 7mm into the case

IMG_2570.JPG
Combined a blood pressure sleeve and crappy Harbor Freight pressure gauge kit - along with some sprinkler parts to make my new tester.
Someone noted - certain sense of pride seeing that needle not moving after a new build. Right of passage.

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Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:38 pm quote
Decent chance I will put on the VAPE ignition and flywheel tomorrow.
Carb as well.

1. Assume 18 BTDC on timing (It's variable)?
2. Have a BE3 atomizer. Prior build with this cyl was happy with 160/BE3/128 - but that was a 20/20 carb. Now 24/24

Was thinking to bump up the main to horribly rich - then back off a bit.
Thoughts?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:43 pm quote
Pressure test proves how lucky you were.

If going variable timing and electronic at the same time, it's going to be double better. With the performance required for a sidecar, the timing should never be below 18 at any time. Going to need all you can get.

As you are now very non-standard (not including lightened cylinder), stock jetting cannot be used anymore. Forget all you learnt from before and start again. Regardless of Vortex or filter it will need an AC120. If you get a set of main jets from 100 to 120 in ones, it will allow some fine tuning.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:00 am quote
Quote:
... certain sense of pride seeing that needle not moving after a new build. Right of passage.
Nice work, and true. Second only to kicking it and having it come to life.
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:11 pm quote
Quote:
Nice work, and true. Second only to kicking it and having it come to life.
Hoping to find out!
Quote:
If going variable timing and electronic at the same time, it's going to be double better. With the performance required for a sidecar, the timing should never be below 18 at any time. Going to need all you can get.
Ok - didn't fully understand this the first time.
Posed question on Chandlerman's Vape DC variable thread to get some direction.
Then re-read this.
Getting up to speed.

Chandlerman's rule of thumb was: set timing so it retards to the number you want at peak power.
Polini cyl didn't come with any instructions.
Now I have sliced it like Swiss cheese anyway.
Assuming that is around 8500 (-7.5) on my new set up (wild guess), then I'd set at 25.5°ish.

Yours was similar. Assuming max rev of 10K (-9) on occasion (see below) then should set at 27°

Both seem pretty close.
Below my expected math:

Max RPM (guess): 10K (-9°)
Frequently hit RPM before shifting: 8,500 (-7.5°)
Cruising speed: 5,500 - 6,500 (-4.5)
Occasional lugging around when just pottering about to get milk or coffee: 4000 (+1)

timing_sip_vape_ignition_14879.jpg

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:46 pm quote
You are one step ahead with this variable ignition, and I am eagerly waiting to hear how you finally set it up for peak and idle timing.. and how it runs as a result. I'll be following your footsteps sometime in the future.
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Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:15 pm quote
What could possibly go wrong?

edit: caption contest


IMG_2578.JPG

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:49 am quote
Looks dangerous sitting there.

Timing at 24 would be enough. How tight was the squish?
Hooked
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:01 am quote
Ramping up the power?
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:59 am quote
Precariously balancing a few more random tools on the ramp would make start up more exciting.

Fire extinguisher is a nice touch.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:02 am quote
Ramp it.

Clamp it.

Stamp it.
Ossessionato
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:22 am quote
With some extra levers and pulleys the engine can install itself
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:56 am quote
We have a winner!
Quote:
Ramp it.

Clamp it.

Stamp it.
Indeed. Tried kicking it on the stand - but stand just wanted to turn over - rather than the motor...

Thought about making up some larger feet for stand - when the ramps and clamps caught my eye. Perfect! What could possibly go wrong?! Hey - I need to feed it with an IV of fuel anyway! Done!

Will see if she starts today. Need some fuel line to complete the rig.
Gotta say - the sound when kicked over dry is nothing like my mamma's Vespa. More like a mini version of my grandmama's Harley.
Thump thump thump thump thump.

Jack - see below.

IMG_2568.JPG
122.89/177.04/27.07 timings at last measure. Inlet duration ~185

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:18 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
We have a winner!
Quote:
Ramp it.

Clamp it.

Stamp it.
Indeed. Tried kicking it on the stand - but stand just wanted to turn over - rather than the motor...

Thought about making up some larger feet for stand - when the ramps and clamps caught my eye. Perfect! What could possibly go wrong?! Hey - I need to feed it with an IV of fuel anyway! Done!

Will see if she starts today. Need some fuel line to complete the rig.
Gotta say - the sound when kicked over dry is nothing like my mamma's Vespa. More like a mini version of my grandmama's Harley.
Thump thump thump thump thump.

Jack - see below.
Tight! It's gonna roar! Hopefully good temps. Almost there. Keep at it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:32 pm quote
Think you're almost ready... just need a bit more protection...

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Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:19 pm quote
Hahahaha
Quote:
Think you're almost ready... just need a bit more protection...
Oh - I shot a video today that would have caused the crowd to wet their pants.
It did not go well.
First start attempt.
High hopes dashed.
Ramps, clamps, gas everywhere.
Not so much as a near start.
Some issues with carb stud likely the culprit - sleeve nut hit torque spec but was likely not clamping carb down.
Currently convalescing with something brown in a glass - with an ice cube.
Tomorrow is another day.
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Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:54 am quote
First Start
Quick post before days end here.
Special shout out to SoCal - who managed to identify a fuel supply issue from a sound bite. Nice job!
Little compressed air through the jets. All was well.
This was second start with the 24mm Carb.
Perhaps I will post the 20MM carb vid my son shot tomorrow.
Much (much) funnier)

https://youtu.be/TUDqi5vL09E
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:56 am quote
It's alive! Wouldn't it have been easier to put it in the frame to start it?

Sounds like theres nothing loose. Seems a bit weak but early days yet and the box top is still off.

Going to have to take it easy for a while. Run everything obviously rich and resist any urges.
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Honda elite
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Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:55 pm quote
Outstanding sounds great! Your timings are same as Chetak. What is the jetting?
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
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Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:14 pm quote
Good stuff. Love the large workspace!
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Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:32 pm quote
Hibbert - thanks. I was gonna have a re-read to see where you were.
Mine is ~185 inlet duration. Port timing - 123/177
Currently have 55-160 idea. BE3. AC160, and 140MJ.
Just got an AC120 in the post so now have that option.
Quote:
Wouldn't it have been easier to put it in the frame to start it?
Ahh - I see you are back on form.
4 clamps and 2 ramps. It rhymes so it must be better.
Plus - someone kept suggesting I jet so it was too rich on the stand - then back it down a notch as my starting point...

Space - thanks gents. When I built this shack - I never thought I was gonna work on anything involving oil other then pasta and salad - cars and bikes in my rear view mirror so to speak. Then - I was stung by the Vespa venom. What is it about these machines?

And as I have gotten used to having to fit every part with a dremel - seriously - does ANYTHING fit out of the box? - my approach to things outside my garage has also changed.
Everything I own can be fitted and customized!

Example:
Brought the tree home - and the wife noted it was lacking a branch in a key strategic area. Sensing the disappointment - Off to the garage I went to get the drill. Could feel her eyes roll as I left the room (again).
Seriously, you are going to work on that damn bike now?

2 min later I returned with the drill and a part off an old xmas display - results below. Lemme know where you think I should set the timings.

IMG_2611.JPG
Icicle brach is custom added - should be no chafing of the xmas light's cables - everything properly radiused at the trunk. Done!

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Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:07 am quote
Nice improvise on the tree charlieman.

There are some similarities in spec:

Chetak 122/177/27 Hack 123/177/27

Inlet 187 185

Think your porting and exhaust might be slightly bigger and iron cylinder.

Idle seemed a little fast like mine on the 55/160. Yours sounded so good without additional frame noise.
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