Vintage vespa with sidecar
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bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5040
Location: So Cal
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:19 am quote
Peer review? Pffft. Donít look at me. Iím just egging you on.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7276
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:09 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Peer review? Pffft. Donít look at me. Iím just egging you on.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 pm quote
Dr Frankenstein is in the house.
Peer review - polite euphemism for when jack tells one of us we did something wrong.
🙂

Sticking with the medical analogies - my welding is now like getting your face repaired by the ER dr. Will it hold up? Sure it will. Would you recommend it to a loved one? Not so much.

So:
After playing with the lean effect in the garage with the first iteration - Discovered that I was getting a lot of push rather then steer out of the sidecar wheel. See pic below - green arrow.

To increase steer and diminish push - I need to do two things.
1. Move the side care wheel back a little relative to the scoot - getting the wheel to more closely align with the scoot rear tire. In Hack world - they call this "lead".
2. Lower the rear mount point - to decrease the lever effect from the rear pivot when the bike leans.

This should create more push at the front of the sidecar wheel - and less at the rear: which = steering.

So I ripped down the frame - and reconfigured the mounting brackets in a more robust format now that I know what my targets are.
I am keeping some flexibility in the design - the mounting brackets themselves will be replaceable. This means a bit of extra work creating mounts that are sturdy but will allow me to bolt in and out of.

60306176230__22DDE855-FEC6-4B5F-B775-0250AF2F6787 2.JPG
For the front mount - I started with a rectangular piece of tubing - and of course, the angle grinder...

IMG_3506.JPG
cut up a few more bits and bobs

IMG_3510.JPG
stir and add heat

IMG_3508.JPG
placed but not yet connected. will allow mount tubing to be bolted on and off.

IMG_3487.JPG
Fabbed new rear mount. Strong enough to hang the whole bike from this. Used square tubing to allow modification later... more to come on that front.

IMG_3521.JPG
Back to square one again - bike flipped and ready for new fitment. Will fab temporary frame and this time - it will be capable of a test ride... If the motor works - and the gear box works - and the new wiring harness with blinkers is ok...

IMG_3463 2.JPG
The push effect I was referring to - green arrow shows direction of wheel being pushed when bike leans right.

Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:37 pm quote
That is looking awfully good and your fab skills are admirable. You seem to be a fast learner and you have a good eye.

I think you may be on to something here and believe there could be a HUGE market for the frame only, as shown above. I would LOVE to get the wholesale Indo franchise, but Ebeth would be better suited and besides, he's actually there.

Get some kinda price figured out and hit me up?

hack.jpg
of course I would recommend quality hardwood

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:08 am quote
That one caused a chuckle.
Crafty photo shop work my friend.
You are the first to identify the significant commercial opportunity that this build holds. (Not everyone has an eye for it)

🙂

Thanks for the laugh.
Good way to start a day.
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5040
Location: So Cal
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:52 am quote


Dang chaz, that looks like one of the girders on the Verrazano Bridge. Have you weighed this structure yet?
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:29 am quote
I was wondering the same thing! You might have to tune the engine further to compensate for all the new framing! J/k it's impressive!
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1418
Location: Florence, OR
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:33 am quote
Hey Voodoo - I think you were inspired by watching too many Gilligan's Island reruns! Ha! I'm digging this framework. It's quite the awesome setup. The Professor would be proud...

hack_86638.jpg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:36 am quote
Ha! Indeed.
Engineers thought this would work too...
https://youtu.be/tS_Dgb8GGi4?t=159

The tail section with Verrazano attachment is about 8lbs all in from seat to pivot point. Floor board front mount is about 3lbs.
So it's not zero in total.

Sidecar rig re-engineer should shave equivelent amount - so net weight should be at or lower then prior.
Failing that - rider can lose 5lbs.

Half the added weight is below the center line of the wheels.
Does that matter? I have no idea - but it sounds good.

The square structure off the back mount from that picture will likely be chopped off just above the flat - leaving a square female hook up point - similar to a trailer hitch. I can then finesse a prettier rear mount that is removable/adjustable.

For the time being - I am moving to the ugly but strong portion of the build - so I can quickly get out and test ride - with a little luck by end of weekend.
Following that - I can get out the tube bender and make a bunch of sexy curvy parts to replace the ugly rectangular stuff I am doing now.
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1376

Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:53 am quote
Wow this is really looking good, and it definately will float.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:32 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Dang chaz, that looks like one of the girders on the Verrazano Bridge. Have you weighed this structure yet?
I think so cal was referring to this.. drove over today after dropping friends off at JFK.

IMG_20200212_154008.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1668
Location: London UK
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:57 pm quote
Nice to see some of the finest shed engineering in action.

One thought. With the back point lower than the front and the resultant steering effect on the sidecar wheel; what happens when you brake? Will it need a super hard adjustable front shock or just going to be exciting?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:33 pm quote
Spent all this time trying to go faster.
Brake?
I suspect I will get some push to the left as weight is transferred - pendulum effect of side car levering on bike.
Have tried to get rid of any/all play so its predictable/ controllable.
Looseness in joints would definitely be my enemy.

Inventing a lot of this on the fly - hard to think through it all.
Welcome the questions,
Curious - what issue(s) do you think might arise?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:19 pm quote
Iteration II is done - and she's strong enough to ride.
Not so pretty - but good step forward on structure.

Unfortunately - some neanderthal has stripped the scoot of all cables, wires, and levers, and had the motor torn down to bare aluminum cases...
Did I mention the shims?
This is a lota change - not least of which - I guess I am gonna have to balance it myself when I ride...
Hmmm.

Anyhoo - making an effort to put the bare minimum bits on so I can test ride.
And when I say bare min - things like the rear brake will likely not make the cut.
I will however, double check the cotter pin.

Just have to feed all those cables back through, and re-assemble the head set, and adjust the cables, and check the carb jetting, and...

IMG_3530.JPG
Prepped and ready for the final two welds.

IMG_3534.JPG
Test frame iteration II - all ready to roll

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1668
Location: London UK
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:35 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Inventing a lot of this on the fly - hard to think through it all.
Welcome the questions,
Curious - what issue(s) do you think might arise?
I don't think it will be an issue but as long as the shocks are stiff the effect will be minimised. The only way to know is the test ride. With the re-built engine and new everything else there will be a lot going on. Jetting and running in is going to make this quite a challenge. Be sure to video it for amusement/evidence/post mortem etc.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 6261
Location: Downtown Toronto
Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:26 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
Inventing a lot of this on the fly - hard to think through it all.
Welcome the questions,
Curious - what issue(s) do you think might arise?
I don't think it will be an issue but as long as the shocks are stiff the effect will be minimised. The only way to know is the test ride. With the re-built engine and new everything else there will be a lot going on. Jetting and running in is going to make this quite a challenge. Be sure to video it for amusement/evidence/post mortem etc.
Yep and please do keep us updated, this is a fun thread. Jack221 is right you'll have a lot going on when you take the scoot out.

I can't imagine a Vespa hack will be that hard to pilot but maybe run with a little ballast in the car the first few times. Yes it will pull on acceleration/deceleration and slow way down for right hand turns unless you want to all of a sudden have 2 wheel physics come in to play.
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bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 654
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:41 pm quote
Itís not like it didnít pull left when you braked before all this right? And if the nose dips on braking that wonít cause any additional issue if you are braking in a straight line right? Wonít it just minimize the effect of your system by Ďlevelingí the mounting points a little? So if you were somehow braking hard while turning (not a position you want to find yourself in and guessing all kinds of other issues will be going down) the side car wonít help you turn.

Bet you could figure a disc brake on the sidecar too... See- thereís your peer review (aka egging you on).

Or the Arduino-controlled electric motor side car boost system!
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:25 pm quote
D Day
Well - it's here.
Its hard to believe it was last August this all started.
Insightfully - I posted the picture below of Keif - tho I don't think I realized at the time just how accurate the caption was.
Everything seamed fine!

What followed:
- Shoe horned an EFL transmission and new xmas tree in to an old set of bodge 150 cases.
- That took me down a road of grinding, polishing and shimming
- At which point I started opening up the inlet
- and porting the cylinder
- and time certing the bad cylinder stud hole
- which lead to 8mm studs all around
- and some kinda custom base packer
- and a few more shims
- and a new 24/24 carb
- and a fast flow tap
- and of course some quick ratio throttle spindles
- and then I thought - I know! I should re-design my side car and learn how to weld.

For the love of god - next time I post a picture of Keith - will one of you please sound the warning bell before all this goes down?

Which leaves us :"here" - where I have a totally untested - un aligned sidecar with an unproven concept for leaning - connected to a scooter with a totally untested motor that has a totally untested transmission with what I think were the right calculations for gear ratios - but I dunno - cause it's totally untested.

What could possibly go wrong?
(editors note: no animals were injured during the shooting of this movie - tho one needed a good cleaning afterwards).

https://youtu.be/j_NBTz2iGUA

Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 6.32.59 PM.png

IMG_3553.JPG
There was an incident along the way

Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 755
Location: California
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:14 pm quote
Oh shucks fer reals
Ossessionato
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 4258
Location: Tega Cay, SC
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:24 pm quote
oh man, I loved the video, But that scoot is the t*ts, you should be proud.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1418
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:45 pm quote
Holy crap man - that thing is BAD-ASS!!!!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 279
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:20 pm quote
Rover needs to learn to lean into the turns...

Totally agree with the comment at the end of the video.

Nice one! 👍

C.

(Video could possibly have been improved if you were chasing scantily dressed, buxom young ladies, with Yakety Sax laid over the audio.)
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:19 am quote
Quote:
Rover needs to learn to lean into the turns...
Haha! Indeed.

Pulled in to driveway feeling proud.
Took off helmet and gloves and threw them in the empty bucket next to me.
Wait! Where is the dog?
Oh sh*t.

Gloves and helmet back on.
Retrace ride.
Half way, see SUV with family of 3 heading my way.
Recall passing it earlier on my ride.
Like Scorsese movie, slow motion as we pass ea. other, them looking at me. Me looking at them.
Mother in passenger seat, mouth agape, looking horrified.
Child with face pressed to glass expressionless.
Father driving with squinting stare at me - not looking amused - mouths "its back there" as he vigorously uses his thumb to point over shoulder repeatedly.
We pass - as I wave a thank you to the family who's Sunday seems to have been shattered.

And around the corner - lies Montana.
No skid marks or stuffing missing.
But a little greasy.
Spent 30 minutes with rug shampoo cleaning before I could take second ride.

Thanks for all the nice comments gents!
Always fun to post a vid of the work when things go well.
Lots of tuning work to do - then build out of the final frame.
But generally speaking - seems really promising and fun to ride.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:24 am quote
That was impressive. You and pp doing God's work. I wouldn't personally have a hack but if I did, your leaner would be what I would do!
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1376

Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:33 am quote
OMG my eyes are still watering from watching that video , I laughed and laughed and laughed, too friggin funny, you're my Hero.


Then the narrative afterward, this is a fantastic story.
Moderator
P200 PX150
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 4048
Location: Hustletown, TX
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:49 am quote
What a helluva project. So fun to watch and learn and laugh. Well done. Can't wait to see this finished product.
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bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 654
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:32 am quote
Only have one question...

Why do you you have a stuffed dog???

Oh and also... so does it work??? Looks like it... but how does it feel?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7276
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:23 pm quote
That looks like so much fun!! The comment from the crew on set was indeed very precise and to the point, and entirely correct!

Charlieman Leaner meme.jpg

Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:37 pm quote
Hat respectfully doffed!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:43 pm quote
Gracious you guys - thanks.
Given that its been a year almost to the day
Lemme pass a few accolades back
'Cause this project would be waiting for a lifetime achievement award if it weren't for y'all's input.

To Greasy - who asked in the first post on my thread: 1- have you ever ridden anything motorized with two wheels? 2- have you ever operated a sidecar? 3- why sidecar? Thanks brother. I appreciate the "for the love of all things wholly" skepticism - and the barn-find startup advice you gave me on the side - even tho you knew it was a bodge.
To Rowdyc you challenged me outa the gate - but encyclopedic when it comes to model specificity. Learned a lot from your posts - respect.
To SoCal: who's answered more questions than anyone knows - frequently, on the phone while I was holding it with blue gloves leaning over the motor in total frustration. That was some bail out 911... Repeatedly. Thanks!
To Jack: ( and qascoot) who convinced me that I could tackle a motor tune - and that 1mm of grinding makes a difference - seriously - I followed qascoots P200 build and thought they were joking when Jack was trying to convince him to go grind another .5mm. Then he did. Jack - you are insolent and occasionally just plain rude - but your knowledge of 2strokes is amazing - as is your willingness to share your knowledge (one sip at a time of course 🙂 )
To whodat: who had mercy on me during my first clutch upgrade - and sent me a custom spacer at his own cost - out of the blue - that put me back on the road when I was in over my head - bringing a week of frustration to an instant end.
To PP - who can find just about anything on the internet at half the price - has a jewelers eye for design/finishes, and seems to know where all the instructions to the German shit that doesn't come with instructions is.
To ebeth who tried to help me track down the original manufacturer of the side car in Indonesia. I know we didn't find them on first go - but we still have time!
To Safis - who occasionally weighs in with some point of knowledge like I went to the local expert shop and the guy actually took the time to tell me exactly how to do it myself. Without the advice, I'd still be trying to organize the rubik's cube of gears I bought and figure out how to fit the damn xmas tree in.
To Hibbert - who showed up at my garage and helped me lift the parts in to place. Sorry about the meltdown on return!
To Swiss - the purveyor of that critical FMP video segment you know you've seen but can't remember where - at just the right time - and of course some bizarre South African music vids.
To Voodoo - who is the chief practical engineer on this and all projects - and the Christopher Kringle of critical spare parts when anyone is in need - including - apparently - entire scooter chassis. Your camel hair coat is a fitting outfit for purveyor of sage advice sir.
To Craig - who provide understated essential advice about how to fill and bleed a front disc brake system - reverse with a large syringe - in minutes rather then days - had I just bothered to listen - and also gave practical and somewhat unexpected diving lesson free of charge.
To Lynnb - who decided to cut his entire floor board off - none of us really understand why - just as I was tackling this - which somehow uncomplicated the process for me - made me braver to get the welder out.
And of course - to Ginch - who - when done yelling at me about how not to post descriptions that were too long under my photos - was the one that suggested the leaner concept in the first place - which I had never even heard of - from his expertise at finding cool shit in every dark corner of the internet and elevating it for us to consider. Thanks brother! Long way to go - but this thing is just down right fun to ride.

TLDR - Seriously, this would be a 10 year project without you guys - so anyone who enjoyed the video should consider it was only possible due to y'all's input and from all the other NSMV threads.

Thanks!

Oh - and when done here - there is the 60MPH+ VBA electric Im gonna need for my heard (with a sidecar of course).

🙂

-CM

Screen Shot 2020-02-17 at 10.38.01 PM.png
Google mapped my house - the day I brought my first Vespa home. Must have been inside getting cup of jo!

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7276
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:38 pm quote
Ha ha! Brilliant stuff. I love the way you lure us all in and take us along for the ride.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1668
Location: London UK
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:30 am quote
It works! truly awesome
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bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 654
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:24 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Google mapped my house - the day I brought my first Vespa home. Must have been inside getting cup of jo!
omg - what were the chances? too funny.

That or... perhaps the government is watching you...

Probably triggered some alerts with your google search terms so they sent some agents to check you out...

"Seriously boss, he really did buy an orange bodge Vespa with a sidecar... it's not some code words for WMDs"

Last edited by pheasant plucker on Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5551
Location: Indo
Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:42 am quote
Top job Brother CM and yes, i am still laugh watching the vid.. Its epic and funny, bow wheres the smile and cheer
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2079

Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:36 pm quote
I finally got to watch the video just now, and minute 1:07 sums it up! (i couldn't see the video on my laptop, only my phone).

This has got to be one of the most (if not most) entertaining build threads here on MV. And not just because it's some outlandish build, but because it's also super technical as well. I've rode a Stella hack setup for a few minutes just in a parking lot, and turning was definitely a challenge, but with a tilting hack, that looks just WAY more natural (safer too) to make turns. The icing on the cake is the Google Maps pic of your scoot being delivered. Great job Charlie.

Next step is to add dual axis pivoting coffee cup holders to both sides of the scooter?

Last edited by whodatschrome on Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7276
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:45 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Next step is to add dual axis pivoting coffee cup holders to both sides the scooter?
It's not a GT300!!!

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Posts: 871
Location: california
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:13 am quote
Thanks gents.
Now turning my focus to tuning in.
Gonna need some help.

Will get out and ride a bit today - am sure will learn a lot + & - on sidecar performance.

Meanwhile, jetting a big question.
Have watched Hibbert's thread - he has similar set up but with aluminum vs my iron cyl.

Old cyl was on 50/160 idle. (up from 48/160 where I soft seized thrashing in hills).
160AC/BE3/128. Ran well.
20/20 carb.

Now with 24/24 carb.
swapped to 138 main.
Fairly significant 4 stroking down low.

Have 120 AC I plan to swap on before I take out today.
Would it make sense to match where Hibbert is with idle - or stick with the 160's
(48/50/55)?

Jack - any thoughts here?

IMG_3596.JPG
Test frame got a foot pad added - allows me to keep bike upright when stopped - without risk of toppling over on sidecar (in theory)

Screen Shot 2020-02-21 at 9.07.15 AM.png
In practice - works nicely - as long as I can train myself to use it.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 6261
Location: Downtown Toronto
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:18 am quote
Looks awesome! Absolutely love the colour. The Ural dealer had one done in about the same orange last I was there and that was amazing looking as well.

Sorry can't help you much with tuning but can help/answer any questions about piloting a hack.

Little safety advice... first time you fly the chair not on purpose just roll off the throttle gently, it'll drop back down. Slow way down on right hand turns until you get the hang of it. The Vespa I imagine is pretty light comparatively though and shouldn't be too hard to manhandle.

I'm not joking, the Ural dealer has had MANY "I've ridden for years" guys try to drive a new rig home and wreck less than 10 minutes away.
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Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:36 am quote


Last edited by charlieman22 on Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:38 am quote
Impressive. Love the foot rest. That hack looks fun!
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