Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:39 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Jack - why the BGM over the Malossi? If Malossi makes the power? You got something against the Italians?
However I badly wrote the answer, if for myself I would only buy the Malossi. You have the BGM, so might as well use it (after some tuning, obviously).
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1985
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:40 am quote
Oh man woke up to rapidly evolving discussion! I'm so lost on what decisions have been made but so enthralled! Living vicariously through your hastily purchased orders in a rush to get them before we are permanently locked down from parts supply!

Kidding aside, this just got real interesting real fast and Im still sitting firmly in the side that Jack has joined. Get another engine/scooter to mess with as your street racer. Don't F with the sidecar rig. I picked up the cheapest rattiest p125 for this reason. I'll get it running as is until the time when I can afford to go ham on that engine and use it as a test bench for whatever my heart desires (mainly just to learn about these more intense topics you just brought up), while still (hopefully) having the stella and the p200 running safely.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:00 am quote
Quote:
Which parts are on the way? You say "all parts" - from some of your previous confessions it could really be ALL parts!
Well - if my wife saw this - it would certainly fall in to the "all parts" category.
The BGM is here - tho cyl wall has a blemish.
The Malossi is on the way - no reason to send BGM back before I have both here to compare for myself.
And the Polini Iron Swiss cheese sculpture is going to get honed and new rings.
Jack's "those bits are superfluous" approach to porting left it looking like a modern cylinder.
The only downside to the Polini - other than I cracked half the top off - is that I just don't trust it over 310F.
This idiot just needs a red idiot light that goes bright at 300.
Does anyone make something like that?!

So the Covid-19 challenge is on.
Three cylinders, two carburetors, a bag of limes, 200 cans of bubbly water, and about 4 gallons of vodka and Gin in the freezer next to the bearings I left in there. I use them as a coaster to keep drinks cold. Works a charm. Hell on the counters tho.


P.S.
"From these various latest examples of the quickest way to spend your money" (I added the emphasis). That made me laugh out loud.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1985
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:14 am quote
Who needs TP? I'm with you in that my panic buying has got me thinking of all the scooter parts I need for three scooters over the next year!

While everyone else is shoving closets full of TP, we'll be hoarding parts. Ha!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86, a not so normal pts100 '82 and a red lipstick '74 sprint
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5656
Location: Indo
Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:29 am quote
it will be a positive thing to do at home due to social distancing, this is the first week of work at home order from the gov here, everyone panic and buy lots of surviving stuff and shut theirself inside their house, so there no perfect time to work on the scooter than this

stay safe and cheer guys
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:01 pm quote
I wonder if 4 gallons of vodka and gin will be enough....

Which Malossi did you order? I expect the Sport but I hope the MHR. The 187 is a bit of a waste of time. The MHR 177 with a 60 crank and packers will end up better than the 187.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:11 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
I wonder if 4 gallons of vodka and gin will be enough....

Which Malossi did you order? I expect the Sport but I hope the MHR. The 187 is a bit of a waste of time. The MHR 177 with a 60 crank and packers will end up better than the 187.
Did I miss the post where you recommended the MHR Jack? I would have thought that the Sport with more torque-oriented output is the wiser choice given the task.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:43 pm quote
Was ordered without even passing confirmation to us. I did say 187 before but if asked for more detail I would have said MHR177 with 60 crank to make 187.

The Sport has lower port timing. Powerband fine as a bolt on but less than the shortened perforated Polini is now, CM is going to want more than that.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:38 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
...but if asked for more detail I would have said MHR177 with 60 crank to make 187...
Ha ha! You can't wait for old Charlie "Itchy Trigger Finger" man22 to ask! He's got shelves to fill, stat!!
You just need to plant the seed and watch it grow...



Last edited by Ginch on Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 361
Location: Cornwall UK
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:52 am quote
Ginch wrote:
He's got shelves to fill
Or Sip shelves to empty, like a bull in a scooter shop.....

Have you seen his other garage though?

Image1.jpg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:58 am quote
Covid-19 Lock In: Day 1
2.3mm drill bit: check
Spacer: check
Spare cables with small tip: check
Smart Carb for cable with small clip: check
Polini new rings: check
Muriatic acid: check
Packers and head gaskets for range of cylinders: check
Range of cylinders: check/check/check
(record scratch sound)

Waidda minute.
Wrong Malossi?
That sounds like an issue I had in high school with two sisters that lived down the street!

The plan (subject to the usual fine print and change)
- Steve Austin the Polini back in shape
- Smart Carb it
- Run my essential errands with it - we are going too see how this thing does on the freeway - no one is on the 101!
- Record same section of road for all cylinders - see if someone can extract some relative data
- Try the BGM - just matching case ports and perhaps using packers to lift?
- Move on to - Malossi.

Jack - in your view - what are the trade-offs MHR to sport. You may have missed the memo - I grabbed a sport off the shelf last week...

IMG_3048.JPG
200 LBS of DOM tubing for side car frame - or - if this thing goes all mad max on us

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2454

Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:00 am quote
Mmm...DOM! What size are you using? I'm jealous, they don't give that stuff away for cheap! I need to buy a whole bunch of that stuff for a few jeep projects i got going on.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:35 am quote
I have a place about 20 minutes away that is a huge steel supplier.
I have to be the smallest buyer they have.
I put in my order for 6' sections they cut from 20' lengths and they cut them for me for pick up.
They all stand around and just look at me as I wrap the oily tubes in plastic before I load them in to my wife's car.
I am locally famous there...
Plan to ride the scoot up there to pick stuff up when lockdown ends.
Those guys will get a laugh.

I went with 1 1/4 in .095 and .120 wall thickness.
Bought enough for about three side cars which won't surprise anyone reading...
Total cost with cutting was about $200.
It will get used...

When I built the test frame - hacking old one and combining with new tubing - I bought a little 1.5 and 1.25 - not knowing what it would take.
Honestly - a well structured 1.25 in.095 wall thickness is about 2x stiffer and stronger than the vespa chassis - so I don't know how much more I need.
I got the thicker stuff for the attaching spars that run from side car to scoot and have some bends in them. Figured a bit of extra strength there not a bad idea.

Have more raw materials now (cylinders/tubing/etc) than I can possibly get through - but happy to have it all shoved in garage so I have project work to keep me from going crazy.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1985
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:46 am quote
haha! I love that about going direct to suppliers.. you can get and build things so much cheaper!

Put me in the queue for a tilting sidecar frame order! I just need to find the sidecar and the scoot to put it on!

Now that you got all your supplies for what would be months of projects for me, but days of projects for you.. don't go out and interact with people anymore!
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:28 pm quote
Re: Covid-19 Lock In: Day 1
charlieman22 wrote:
- Move on to - Malossi.

Jack - in your view - what are the trade-offs MHR to sport. You may have missed the memo - I grabbed a sport off the shelf last week...
So, you did get the Sport. Oops. Well, not so bad actually as it is the one technically most appropriate for your needs. And will make a great test comparison if you run all three. Will all need jetting and timing done individually to get the best out of them.

The Sport and the MHR look the same (apart from the 2 ring 1 ring) but that's where it ends. Port timing is quite different.
The Sport comes on the power earlier and flattens off at peak with long overrun. The MHR is on power later but goes much higher peak then the falls off quicker. The MHR177 on a 60 would give you the option to adjust the packers to what suits best.

The cracked Polini is closer to the MHR in port timing. My version of what is appropriate for your needs. The MHR does have a much wider exhaust port. The Sport also has the wide port but way less timing. Will be interesting.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:49 pm quote
Sime - dont be ridiculous. My conveyor belt is manual as is my pic and pack.

Swiss - you will need a dog. Then you will need to beat the women off. Sidecar = meet everyone.

Jack - you just posted as I was collecting some data.
Tks.

BGM timings (only shown with 57mm stroke):
Port timings 57 mm stroke:
Transfers 118,
Exhaust 171

MHR (60mm stroke version - they have different cylinder for 57MM apparently)
Timings basically match my Polini as you note.
Ex: 178.5
Transfers: 122.5
Blow down: 28
I kinda like those - if not a hair high on the exhaust.

Malossi Sport 57mm crank
Exhaust: 173,5.
Transfer: 115.5.
Blowdown: 29.

1. Not sure what happens to timings with 60mm crank
2. MHR has spiffy split exhaust so you can make it unreasonably large
3. MHR has single piston ring - no idea how that fairs with use

I have a tough enough time keeping front wheel from skipping in first with Polini - I find it plenty grunty.
Thing is geared to climb a tree down low (appropriate for when I have passenger).

Malossi will be 2 weeks min before it gets a try out - so it could still be either one.
(note - if any of my suppliers are reading this - they should clean up the spit coffee from screen now).

How big a packer am I going to need to get the sport and or BGM timings up to where they need to be?

*edit: maybe the question should be. what is the prescription for ea of the Malossi options - packers/porting - so I grasp where I would need to take either?

IMG_6523.JPG
Manifold for smart carb. Malossi read. what is the tactic I take for matching to cases? Square up top of case inlet to match? what about that big shelf inside?!

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:24 pm quote
Copied your numbers cleaned them up and added a few more.

BGM 177
Transfers 118
Exhaust 171

Malossi Sport
Exhaust: 173.5
Transfer: 115.5
Blowdown: 29

MHR177
Exhaust: 178.2
Transfer: 119.2
Blowdown: 29.5

MHR 187
Exhaust: 178.5
Transfers: 122.5
Blow down: 28

Without going through all the pages, whats your Polini status now?
Port timing?
Ignition timing?
All the jets?
Vortex/filter?
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:53 pm quote
Polini:
123/127/27 (in theory anyway). I got pretty damn close.
PBT 1.3 with 1.5 base packer
1.5 head gasket (cracked)
33.85 top of ex. port to top of cylinders (I think)
46.40 transfer port top to top of cylinder (I think)
60mm crank

What else you need?

Edit...
Jets:
50/160 (not right but hadn't sorted that out yet)
135/137 main - will run on 140 but feels like it hit a wall.
BE3
120AC
You thought I might be gas starved with my 1.8mm drilled hole.
Fast flow fuel tap
24/24 (smart carb still on shelf)
Polini bell mouth - filters are for pussies

Third edit:
Ignition timing - about 24/25 BTDC. Variable vape. When I rev it on the stand - looks to advance to about 18.

Screen Shot 2020-03-21 at 11.17.57 PM.png
found this at end of my build. it had a heading saying: "Jack - see below"...

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:18 pm quote
Here's the list again for anyone who missed it.

BGM 177
Transfers 118
Exhaust 171

Malossi Sport
Exhaust: 173.5
Transfer: 115.5
Blowdown: 29

MHR177
Exhaust: 178.2
Transfer: 119.2
Blowdown: 29.5

MHR 187
Exhaust: 178.5
Transfers: 122.5
Blow down: 28

CM Polini on crack
Exhaust: 177.0
Transfers: 123.9
Blow down: 26.5

Clear to see from this if you did buy the MHR187 kit the timing would have been near the same as the Polini. The MHR187 would have been quicker because the ex port is wider and can be set up to run stronger.

Set up of the Polini should only be compared once this jetting is done. When you can successfully do at least 5 miles with the throttle pinned wide open and someone in the sidecar, then the jetting done.

Edit: I was surprised, the Sport actually comes out quite well on a 60mm crank

Malossi Sport 57 with 60mm crank
PBT +0.3 (Poking out)
Exhaust: 179.9
Transfer: 125.1
Blowdown: 27.4

This will be quicker than the MHR187 or the Polini. All round but not by much. The important bit is quicker.

Edit 2: BGM doesn't work. Going to need cutting. This is the best it gets in the raw (refund?)

BGM 177 with a 60mm crank
PBT +1.2 (Poking out)
Exhaust 174.1
Transfers 124.9
Blowdown: 24.6

This will be really strong but not fast.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:57 am quote
Jack - thanks for calcs.
One thing I should have reminded.
The cylinder formerly known as my Polini was decked.
Trust that doesn't change assumptions made to get to other calls?

Assume if I were to deck BGM - would need to take back the nikasil first - then have decked.
Sime - if reading - didnt you go with a 60mm crank on your's without decking - and still get timings fairly close to what I have on the Polini?

Edit - see below from Sime66's set up.

Sime66's BGM
Finished Timings: 125/181/28 & 125/71
Finished PBT: 3.9mm.
Finished Squish: 0.85mm

Why is it that he is getting similar to my Polini/ Sport M. lifted/ if he didn't deck cylinder?

3_critical_barrel_dimensions_and_compression_calcs_19716.jpg
Sime 66's final specs - 60mm crank - no decking - BGM.



Last edited by charlieman22 on Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
1984 PX(BGM187)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 361
Location: Cornwall UK
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:56 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Sime - if reading - didnt you go with a 60mm crank on your's without decking - and still get timings fairly close to what I have on the Polini?
You've found it, but as I just wrote it all out, you can have it anyway, and a bit more..............

For mine, the 60mm crank was determined by the wish not to skim a Nikasil lined barrel.
I used a 0.8mm base gasket and a 0.8mm head gasket. Timings and other details:

Finished Timings: 125/181/28 & 125/71
Finished PBT: 3.9mm.
Finished Squish: 0.85mm
C.R. = 11.4:1, C.C.R. = 7.1:1.

60mm Crank
1900g Flywheel
21/68 21,17,13,12 36,38,42,58
Si26/26 carb with vortex jetting under review, currently 45-140, AC120-BE3-MJ140
Static Timing set to 26, Kytronik curve '7'.
Sip road 2 Exhaust

More details in my summary, 2019-11-26, here:
Over a Barrel (BGM187) (Page 4)
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:58 am quote
Thanks Sime.
Will wait on Jack's or other's $.02 on the BGM question above - clarify why Sime's 60mm non skimmed barrel would be different for mine (data few posts above).

Have looked at some initial fitting of the Smart Carb (Malossi) intake manifold match to case.
If I want to be able to use the 24/24 for any comparative testing - need to just be careful about how aggressive I match.
Think I can get close without making SI no longer able to seal.

See pics below on planned blending areas.
Malossi manifold is very square.
Note I stay out completely of one corner to assure I keep a sealing surface there.

IMG_1586.JPG
Sharpie is outline of gasket. Grinding needs to remain inside sufficiently to leave a sealing surface.

IMG_9398 2.JPG
A look down the throat at what that might be

IMG_5168.JPG
Looks like the sand casted this - and someone left their finger in the cast. This will have to be cut off :-)

IMG_0783.JPG
Carnage from the bolt drop in close up. Will give this a nice grind and polish to clean up

IMG_4593 2.JPG
Patiently waiting its turn

Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1597

Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:14 am quote
Holy Crap CM are you building a monster? And mass producing sidecars, your poor doggy.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1888
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:18 am quote
The "finger" is there to close up the hole on autolube cases...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:39 pm quote
Can you give me a little re-cap of your plan, I missed checking in yesterday and now seem to be lost!

I think what you're doing is using the Malossi manifold to attach the carb in a rotary valve config - at least for now?
If that's what you're doing, I reckon if you remove much more from the case then there won't be much sealing going on.
I think what you need now is to direct the flow, the gas is definitely going to hang on that shelf. Later when you go reed, the shelf goes.

If it was mine I think I would fill that area with JB Weld so you get a smooth transition... it sticks well and will be hard to remove later, so if you want to avoid that you could grease the manifold beforehand, pour the JB and wait for it to set. Then pull it out and clean up, put it back in and hold it in place with one of the RTV silicone products. If you're worried about it falling out then drill and tap it from below the shelf using a countersunk screw.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:21 pm quote
Quote:
If it was mine I think I would fill that area with JB Weld so you get a smooth transition...
Excellent.
Quote:
Can you give me a little re-cap of your plan, I missed checking in yesterday and now seem to be lost!
Understood. Busy times.
Plan is a strong word. Let's go with trajectory:
- drill 24/24 carb. upjet back to 138 (ole it up overheating at 132). Suspect too rich. Ran on jets as big as 145 before. Suspect they were not really being fed due to carb hole size.
- Adjust case opening to match a little better in the corners to the Malossi intake.
- Clean up Polini cylinder wall with muriatic acid and a big ass fan
- Hone - if I can find my damn honing tool
- New rings and off I go.

Once broken in - on goes the Smart (still Polini cyl)

Then comes the new cylinders for comparison.
Order of which is still in flux.
Record in 3rd gear on same stretch of road in same manner from same starting RPM - & post.

Waiting some feedback from Jack as per above - Jack - just look for my posts that starts: "Jack - thanks for cals".
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Mar 22, 2020 5:49 pm quote
Let me know where you find your Damn Honing Tool. Might give me a clue as to where to find mine! It should be easy though - must be in the same place as my electric die grinder, and my LTH exhaust.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:39 pm quote
The Damn Honing Tool - and your die grinder I suspect- are under a bunch of plastic bags you saved from all the crap you bought at SIP and you put them on top of your stuff about 2 months ago when you were tiding up cause you had put the honing tool in that blue plastic bin just under the work bench cause that way it wouldn't get damaged but you forgot that you buried it under a bunch of bags.

Good news.
They aren't damaged.
Now you just have to find The Damn Honing Oil.
Good luck with that.

Meanwhile- had a look at sealing surface of carb. If I move the sealing surface to the outside perimeter of the carb - red solid line - would give me more opening to work with.

Wadda y'all think? Outer perimeter sufficient for a seal?

*edit: copy and paste: Waiting some feedback from Jack as per above - Jack - just look for my posts that starts: "Jack - thanks for calcs".

IMG_5338 3.JPG
dotted line would no longer have case material

IMG_8883 2.JPG
Now if I can just read what I wrote on the stems to figure out what's what

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1972
Location: London UK
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:56 pm quote
This is taking the form of a full experiment. 3 kits, 2 carbs, 6 sets of results. Will be interesting how this all works out. With the slightly lower gearing and the sidecar, the results will scale up for people who ride around in the usual self isolated way.

Data was there for all to see. Sime's BGM has the exhaust port raised 1.6mm. This makes quite some difference.

Shortening the BGM cylinder wouldn't help with this issue and even if it did stripping, shortening and re-plating would be too much for most.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:31 pm quote
Allright - lets see if we can breath life back in to the Polini on crack (nice touch) first.
Get the smart carb set up - see weather its an expensive paper weight or the real deal - then start putting some cylinders on and see what happens. I don't think I will be going to work for the next 2 - 3 weeks...

'Course there is a risk if the smart carb actually makes it sing - Im gonna want to run some essential errands for a bit on these empty roads...

Think of this as the ultimate sleeper commuter hot rod test.
Was going to go with electric koolaide test - but saving that for my second scoot.

Cheers all,

-CM
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:49 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
...If I move the sealing surface to the outside perimeter of the carb - red solid line - would give me more opening to work with.

Wadda y'all think? Outer perimeter sufficient for a seal?
Thanks for advice re TDHT. I should do a proper empty and refill of the garage - but simply can't face it. Looks like we will be at work as per normal, or working from home so no playtime...

Red line - are you suggesting a step going from carb to case? Or open out both?
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:56 am quote
Case would be opened up in a bit more of a square shape with big radius corners. Green line is the case.
Red solid line is where the carb would seal to the case
Red dotted line sits in the air as no case below it.
Manifold for smart carb gets JB weld inserts and blended to match case (green) shape.

If I do the alterations now - I can put motor back in and swap carbs without dropping motor completely...
Carb would remain uncut.
See below.

IMG_5338 4.JPG
will the carb seal with just the outer perimeter (red - non dotted) to case?

Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 972
Location: California
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:51 am quote
Wow Charlie this is going to be so much fun. When I did the reed valve on my P200 which is obviously different got a little too aggressive and broke through the casing on the inlet into the clutch side had to use JB Weld to fill. If I was doing this again I would have aluminum welding first in virgin cases. In your experimental case and cases with time certs, JB'b fly seals etc maybe epoxy for this if it happens.

0FA99A37-AB17-4C06-8ABC-57F16504E074.jpeg
the dark spot above the crank web is a hole filled with JB Welb

0FA99A37-AB17-4C06-8ABC-57F16504E074.jpeg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:22 pm quote
Hibbert - thanks for the head's up.
I managed to get a little time in today.
Reshaped intake to help align with Smart Carb manifold - while still allowing 24/24.

It's ~ ok and with some filler in the manifold to direct flow should work.
That said - the front carb stud threads look like they are on last legs to me.
Aluminum cases just don't like steel stud getting installed and pulled repeatedly.

Paused to ponder if I am better off just hogging out the intake opening to match the smart carb fully - and putting it on directly - rather then going back with the 24/24. Would lessen the learning - but increase my sanity. Pressed pause for the evening to consider.

Few pics below of the "match" of the Smart Carb manifold (aka Polini reed).

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This is what I can remove and still allow SI to bolt on

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So I did.
Roughed in - will blend and polish

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Adjusting the Polini manifold to fit cases

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:54 pm quote
You won't get a totally unbiased 'reading' from the 24 as the gas flowing into the newly cut area will slow and become turbulent to some degree. But since your end point involves a shiny new smart carb and not a smelly old SI, it'll be fine!
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:13 pm quote
Couple long days of my paying job left me limited time.
Got a little Dremel therapy in on the intake late this afternoon.
To fit both the SI and the SC (Smart Carb's new acronym) on the same case means a little compromise for both.

Pics below show inlet now opened to allow as much SC fit as possible.
Corner can't be cut out - arrow - as SI needs this for sealing.
Will create some turbulence for the SC I'd prefer not to have.

In hindsight - would probably been best served squishing down a 2' tube to make it oblong - then fabricating and welding flanges on it - for the lower part of the intake manifold. Could still happen before all said and done.
For now - Have cases opened up sufficiently to allow both carbs as bolt on bolt off set up;

Tomorrow on to the cylinder - clean the aluminum off it - and hone.
Question: noticed the gudgeon pin - aka piston wrist pin - was tough to press out of my GS. It used to press in and out by hand. As iff the hole in the piston outside the circlips has grown burred or slightly deformed. planned to give very light clean up and check for burrs. Anyone else ever experience this?

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Hole shaped to match reed block's manifold (no reeds being used)

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SI gasket shows where SI will seal - slight undercuts in areas will cause some turbulence but nothing too bad

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Reed block manifold. Note corner that just pokes right in. Not a fan... Will have to fill half this as well with JB weld or insert a section of tubing.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7560
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:01 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Anyone else ever experience this?
Yes. Every time, it's normal.

Also that other thing we talked about privately? Yes it's normal to droop to one side a little...

Some nice work there CM, would love to see your manifold from tube come to fruition.
Hooked
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 316
Location: UK - 3rd Rock From the Sun
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:07 am quote
Ginch wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
Anyone else ever experience this?
Yes. Every time, it's normal.

Yup me too..
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2454

Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:12 am quote
https://www.amazon.com/SPI-09-610-Piston-Puller-Made/dp/B0093PFTRW

what i've used many times to remove those pins.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1208
Location: california
Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:48 pm quote
Thanks all.
Gave me some confidence to just clean up the outer part of the hole.
Pin slides nicely in and out now.
Piston looks like I dragged it behind the scoot on my way to the pub.
Twice seized - never shy - that's what I say.
🙂

Bit of muriatic acid, a nice hone, and cylinder and piston are all clean.
Seize included the usual grab marks on the four corners where the studs are.
Decided no time like the present to add some oil galleys to the piston for lubrication. Pic below while in progress.

Work continues to interfere with priorities.
Perhaps things will progress tomorrow a bit more.

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Divots align with where piston likes to seize. Should cary a bit of extra lube?

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Dry assembly with Smart Carb - not sure if I will have some interference issues with cylinder. Do you normally have to angle carb in toward chassis to avoid?

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