Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:57 am quote
Vacation weekend here - which feels a fair amount like the middle of the week on Covid time.
Plan to organize some burgers's and dogs on the grill - but not before I get in a last ride on stock BGM.

In the mean time - here is a riddle for you.
If you look at the Dyno charts - they gave me pretty consistent numbers on ea. of the metering rods - eq29 (richer) and eq31 (leaner).

My butt was telling me the 31 was faster.
Dyno said it was the 29.
But when I looked back - I could see what I was feeling.
The 31 has more power at the 5K rev range - right in the heart of the power band.
The 29 has stronger top end around 7K.

It is tempting to read the chart as if it is a range of throttle - but remember - this is all done with the throttle in single WOT position.

Motor prefers leaner at mid RPMS and richer at high RPMS.
So the question is - what's the cause of this?

Screen Shot 2020-07-02 at 1.58.05 PM.png



Last edited by charlieman22 on Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:18 pm quote
Poidog - good stuff!
Thanks!
My results very much reflect that - assuming the chart is outlining needs.

Took. along ride today out to ocean and back through canyons.
I have nothing but good things to say about the BGM cylinder.
With its stock timings - it is nothing short of an excellent touring set up.
Pulled 4th up curvy canyon hills.
Dropped to 3rd for sportier ride.

Could it have a little more juice from 7000 - 8500?
Sure - but it takes a LOT to expose it.

IMG_6524.PNG
Run through the hills

61550650275__E9760A78-35AB-40B6-B6D1-AB0657C42CE6.JPG
Pit stop to re-fuel

IMG_6510.JPG
Gratuitous beauty shot. May be time to put the cowls back on

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:15 am quote
Love this shot. It's one cool ride CM.

Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 764
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:55 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Poidog - good stuff!
Thanks!
My results very much reflect that - assuming the chart is outlining needs.

Took. along ride today out to ocean and back through canyons.
I have nothing but good things to say about the BGM cylinder.
With its stock timings - it is nothing short of an excellent touring set up.
Pulled 4th up curvy canyon hills.
Dropped to 3rd for sportier ride.

Could it have a little more juice from 7000 - 8500?
Sure - but it takes a LOT to expose it.
Could you edit this post to include motor setup? Or post a link to what you have? I'm interested in trying a BGM because of its versatility with setup, being able to drop the head into the cylinder.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:51 am quote
Quote:
Love this shot. It's one cool ride CM.
Appreciate that.
The side car always got a lot of looks/smiles/honks/thumbs up.
The new group that I get a lota good vibes from now are motorcycle riders who see me leaning through the corners.
They are like - WTF? !

As I ride the rig - I'm getting a better handle on it.
Toque/smoothness of the BGM allows throttle steer through sweeping corners.
As the radius tightens - just come off the throttle a bit - bike leans further over -turns tighter.
As the radius gets bigger - roll on the power - bike stands up a bit - straightens out some.
Little bit of it in video below if you wanna c some sunny California canyon roads.
I'm not going 10/10ths - just working to be smooth.
Quote:
Could you edit this post to include motor setup?
Christopher - I will be testing more than one set up - but here are the specs for it current.
Motor is a 150 (VBB cases)
slight porting of transfers in cases.
60mm crank shaft
inlet under carb opened up on both sides about 10mm on the front or "closing" side. about 15MM on rear or "opening" side. (gives me timing of about 180ish. maybe 185.
BGM cylinder basically stock (currently).
.2mm base gasket and 1.5mm head gasket.
Gives .80 squish with the 60mm crank.
Dyno results above - just under 16HP.
Timings are 123/173/25

My next move will be to lift the cylinder a skosh, and open up the exhaust port top a touch as well - I expect it to put out about 17 highly usable HP.

https://youtu.be/GA_zner78Ks

Last edited by charlieman22 on Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1099
Location: California
Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:44 am quote
what are your observations on Aluminum cylinder vs Cast Iron?
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:21 am quote
Quote:
what are your observations on Aluminum cylinder vs Cast Iron?
Well - its a mix of more than just the material.
Angle and size of ports changed.
I suspect the biggest difference is this.

I kept pushing - asking the question - how do you get torque and low start to power band - yet have good over all/high end power.

In hindsight - I think the BGM was designed with the answer to this question - built int.

If you look at what they did - they put an enormo exhaust port.
I was scared to make the Polini so wide.
Perhaps its in the 44 to 45mm width range - and still quite oval.

BGM takes the exhaust port to >48mm and while it has radiuses corners - they are still corners. It is more square in nature than the Polini.
With this - they are managing to get a big exhaust port - without taking its timing very high (blow down is a low 25).

As for aluminum vs iron - the first thing is - it doesn't seize at 310°. That's nice. But it also runs at least 25° hotter than the iron Polini.

Bottom line: I probably could have made the Polini similar in performance by more closely matching the wide ex. port - but - I would be pushing that cylinder at temps always close to seize. With the BGM - I don't know (yet) where that point is. I like to think I have more room with it than the Polini.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2234
Location: London UK
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:07 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Vacation weekend here - which feels a fair amount like the middle of the week on Covid time.
Plan to organize some burgers's and dogs on the grill - but not before I get in a last ride on stock BGM.

In the mean time - here is a riddle for you.
If you look at the Dyno charts - they gave me pretty consistent numbers on ea. of the metering rods - eq29 (richer) and eq31 (leaner).

My butt was telling me the 31 was faster.
Dyno said it was the 29.
But when I looked back - I could see what I was feeling.
The 31 has more power at the 5K rev range - right in the heart of the power band.
The 29 has stronger top end around 7K.

It is tempting to read the chart as if it is a range of throttle - but remember - this is all done with the throttle in single WOT position.

Motor prefers leaner at mid RPMS and richer at high RPMS.
So the question is - what's the cause of this?
If this were a normal carb the 29 would be correct but the clip would be too high. What about adjusting clicks?

Any progress with the BGM tuning? Will only take a few hours.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 764
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:09 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
Love this shot. It's one cool ride CM.
Appreciate that.
The side car always got a lot of looks/smiles/honks/thumbs up.
The new group that I get a lota good vibes from now are motorcycle riders who see me leaning through the corners.
They are like - WTF? !

As I ride the rig - I'm getting a better handle on it.
Toque/smoothness of the BGM allows throttle steer through sweeping corners.
As the radius tightens - just come off the throttle a bit - bike leans further over -turns tighter.
As the radius gets bigger - roll on the power - bike stands up a bit - straightens out some.
Little bit of it in video below if you wanna c some sunny California canyon roads.
I'm not going 10/10ths - just working to be smooth.
Quote:
Could you edit this post to include motor setup?
Christopher - I will be testing more than one set up - but here are the specs for it current.
Motor is a 150 (VBB cases)
slight porting of transfers in cases.
60mm crank shaft
inlet under carb opened up on both sides about 10mm on the front or "closing" side. about 15MM on rear or "opening" side. (gives me timing of about 180ish. maybe 185.
BGM cylinder basically stock (currently).
2mm base gasket and 1.5mm head gasket.
Gives .80 squish with the 60mm crank.
Dyno results above - just under 16HP.
Timings are 123/173/25

My next move will be to lift the cylinder a skosh, and open up the exhaust port top a touch as well - I expect it to put out about 17 highly usable HP.

https://youtu.be/GA_zner78Ks
Thank you, I'm trying to get to 60 mph consistently on my Stella with a DR177, going to try a PM Tuning chamber exhaust today and see what happens. Watching and studying what people are doing and their setups. What kind of speeds are you able to maintain with this setup? I can get to 65 mph, but she doesn't have enough power to maintain it with a headwind or small hill. Thinking I may crack my case put in a 60mm crank and see what I get. Looking at one of those fancy flowed bell cranks since I have reed valves.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:33 am quote
Christopher - I've found its a combo of "power" and gearing.
My rig will run 60/65 pretty happily - with a max of about 67/68 in its current rendition.
Curious - what are your basics right now?
Carb/Pipe/Cylinder/Tire circumference/Gearing - if you know.
If not - forget tire and gearing - what RPM are you pulling at 60 and or 65 if you know.
Targeting some power at that RPM is a significant part of the game.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 764
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:41 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Christopher - I've found its a combo of "power" and gearing.
My rig will run 60/65 pretty happily - with a max of about 67/68 in its current rendition.
Curious - what are your basics right now?
Carb/Pipe/Cylinder/Tire circumference/Gearing - if you know.
If not - forget tire and gearing - what RPM are you pulling at 60 and or 65 if you know.
Targeting some power at that RPM is a significant part of the game.
What I do remember without off the top of my head

Carburetor SI 20/20 - was contemplating going bigger but current setup when struggling to maintain 60, throttle could be at 1/2 or WOT no difference. Don't think it's my bottleneck currently.

Pipe - was a so to plus until yesterday, switching to a PM Tuning today.

Tire - is a 3.50-10 zippy

Gearing - Have a 22 tooth cosa clutch, don't remember the gear box details of a Stella need to look them up again.

RPM - have to look up old build thread.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:34 am quote
My $.02.
Before I got to fully splitting cases - I would look at a cylinder kit.
This BGM would likely be top of list based on what you are hoping for.
Order of upgrades from there would then move to carb before cases (opening inlet) and crank.
Or - you could just jump right to the end - as Ginch likes to say - just think of where you'll be in the end - and build it now.

In my experience - the biggest bang for buck came with the cylinder and exhaust.
I would expect that your 65MPH would be more than achievable with those two key items - on your 57 crank.
Other's have certainly found that to be the case.
Also - you would want them in any event if you did the internals - so they are a safe bet.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 764
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:07 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
My $.02.
Before I got to fully splitting cases - I would look at a cylinder kit.
This BGM would likely be top of list based on what you are hoping for.
Order of upgrades from there would then move to carb before cases (opening inlet) and crank.
Or - you could just jump right to the end - as Ginch likes to say - just think of where you'll be in the end - and build it now.

In my experience - the biggest bang for buck came with the cylinder and exhaust.
I would expect that your 65MPH would be more than achievable with those two key items - on your 57 crank.
Other's have certainly found that to be the case.
Also - you would want them in any event if you did the internals - so they are a safe bet.
I agree, once I get the carburetor to be the bottleneck, I'm thinking I should know the carburetor is the bottleneck when im at WOT and feel her slow down going to 3/4 throttle like I can in third when she's pulling.

I won't mind getting a four reed valve setup, something like this. But it does mean I'll have to start mixing my own drinks, no more oil on tap.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/intake+manifold+mrp+30mm+_22159184
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:41 pm quote
Choke Cable Side Draft
This one's a question.
Pondering how to deal with sidedraft choke.
Space is so tight as it faces out toward the fly side engine case with barely room to get it to extend.

Could possibly rig up a lever that goes to my choke cable.
No small enterprise tho.
Though about making the engine cowl have some kind of hinge.
Then I am starting it with the cover up in the air - so not sure how much help that really is.

Thoughts? Pics of cool solutions you've seen?
(Pheas' didn't we discuss some kind of aliexpress motorcycle adjuster thingy at some point? cant find).
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:07 pm quote
I've just bought one of these but haven't fitted it yet. You can also find similar things on Aliexpress.

I would have preferred to use the original choke but because it's much longer to get to the side draft choke mechanism it doesn't seem all that straightforward.



Not sure about your carb but most of the ones with a lever on the carb itself seem to use a similar system to add a cable.

https://www.maxiscoot.com/en/product/cable-choke-adapter-kit-polini-cp-64139[/img]
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 764
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:19 pm quote
Re: Choke Cable Side Draft
charlieman22 wrote:
This one's a question.
Pondering how to deal with sidedraft choke.
Space is so tight as it faces out toward the fly side engine case with barely room to get it to extend.

Could possibly rig up a lever that goes to my choke cable.
No small enterprise tho.
Though about making the engine cowl have some kind of hinge.
Then I am starting it with the cover up in the air - so not sure how much help that really is.

Thoughts? Pics of cool solutions you've seen?
(Pheas' didn't we discuss some kind of aliexpress motorcycle adjuster thingy at some point? cant find).
What carburetor are you using? I have a phbg on my chinarelli and used a system like the stage 6. The hardest part was getting a longer setup for the enrichment circuit. The phbg has a setup from the factory for a manual choke cable.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/EN/Products/40326000/Conversion+Kit+CableChoke+.aspx?_country=E993AB67-6807-4109-BBED-F6374EBF9F9B&gpc_origin=shopping&gpc_feed_alias=de&gpc_pid=40326000&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwcPPqNW36gIVBdvACh1q9gTjEAQYASABEgIRMPD_BwE
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:36 pm quote
Thanks Ginch.
Just the sort of thing I was looking for!
I'll check it out.

Christopher - thanks. Its a "Smart Carb". it's a bit shoe horned in as I wanted to have a short intake. Its somewhere between a side draft and a downdraft ~ 45° angle.

I repurposed an MRP intake, cut and drilled, so that I could use studs (thanks whodat!) and shorten it.
Now I just need to figure out how to acetate the choke!

BTW - for those keeping score on temps.
Over the weekend I got my KOSO unit that screws right in to the head.
BGM head has a tapped hole made for this.
I was expecting it might be a little different than the dreaded under the spark plug one - oh man - I will not miss that thing.

But rather than pull it off - I left it on for some comparisons.
Allowed me to swap back and forth as I waited at lights.
Was kinda shocked by the difference.

at 200° they read exact same.
When the spark plug reads 280° tho, the head plug reads 330°
There is a full 50° delta.
Kinda made me wanna go back to the spark plug version - just so I didnt have to look at 330° plus!

Ginches 450°, I am now surmising, was BGM with cyl head plug at an absolute max?

IMG_6555.JPG
rewiring my bike at the light...
Like I wasn't enough of a spectacle already...

BF030125-W01.jpg

IMG_6554.jpg
I have already cut the choke handle off so that it has clearance to be pulled out... little tight in there.

IMG_6556.JPG
View from the back - you can see the small area of the choke. Maybe some kind of fork that is tapered that slides in like a ball joint fork.

Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 874
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:24 am quote
I take it that but you cut the handle from needs to pull out?

You could flip the o-clamp to use as a pivot point. 90 deg angle and run the cable to the frame side of the smart carb.

Something like this?

78955CA2-93F0-444F-A1FF-45F895959A9A.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:03 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ginches 450°, I am now surmising, was BGM with cyl head plug at an absolute max?
It was 493, and on the Malossi Sport under the plug. Highest I've seen on the BGM is about 365 after a 9km full noise run at 115km/h, max 119.
charlieman22 wrote:
at 200° they read exact same.
When the spark plug reads 280° tho, the head plug reads 330°
There is a full 50° delta.
So - a bit like measuring port timing in a different manner - the figures may be different but nothing has changed. It's not even 1 degree hotter than it was before (but I think you're well aware of that! ).

Another variable is the amount of sensor connection that sits in the airstream... that has an affect on the reading as well. Did I show you my friend's test results? It's on a thread here somewhere.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:25 am quote
Quote:
Did I show you my friend's test results? It's on a thread here somewhere.
No - dont think so? Wanna C - if you can find it.
Quote:
It was 493
Gracious - that's high.
I was so shell shocked from the Polini screaming (screeching) at me if I broke 310°, it damn near took therapy to allow the BGM to run there without me covering the clutch.
Luckily - it being California - therapy is available everywhere.
Upon swapping - I am having to re-calibrate again.
300° under the plug is 350° at the head - but as you say - its just a number.
There is no additional heat.

Jack - Update - I am getting a little riding in for a few days before I alter the cylinder.
In the mean time - I took some measures on Ebeth's Polini and updated the first post on is thread - so we have his timings as well.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:49 pm quote
Last post in this thread (but the rest has a lot of good info). Damn, there's my lunch break gone.

CHT Location
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:03 pm quote
Ahh - once again - I have successfully learned what others have pointed out before...

I willing to buy that the air cooling - is in fact cooling - the under the plug vs head screw in type. That makes sense.

The other thing that stuck home:
Quote:
All my learned 'scare points' after years of using tto on dozens of scooters need to be shifted
Quote:
Conclusion: beware when asking what is a safe temperature without referencing the gauge used in the question AND answer.
Reader's digest:
His point was that the Trail Tech has a different design that is not as effected by the air cooling as the SIP alloy one.
That is a different issue than mine - but will resonate with other's on here I suspect.

Meanwhile - I have to re-learn my scare points. prefer to do that with some conversions rather than through seizes if I can...
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:51 am quote
Update
Waiting for the Malossi MHR kit to arrive - the 57mm stroke kit...
In the mean time - doing some experimentation with my unreasonably expensive carb.

Here is my starting point/clues:
- Have done WOT plug chop to determine right "metering rod" for the Smart Carb. (Smart Carbs dont have jets, or multiple circuits. Just a rod, and the ability to adjust its position to tune in richness down low).
- So WOT looks good, but looking at piston - feels like I am a little rich over all?
- Plug tip itself looks good - but... this can be highly misleading as it represents an "average" of all throttle positions. One can be rich or lean at WOT or idle while still having a nice chocolate brown plug.
- Plug at base of threads is black. This flat surface is mostly effected by idle jet or slightly open throttle position
- Four stroking. right around 3000 RPM, if I am lugging or a little cold, I get a bit of it.

What does it all mean?
My guess as to why the piston looks too "washed" at the transfer ports is that its a reflection of the 1/8th-1/4 throttle area being too rich with gas (thus washing the piston at the transfer ports).
The blackness of the ring around the base of the threads also suggests this could be the case.
Add to that the 4 stroking I get, and that completes my read.
Is it right?
Idk yet- but took a 50 mile trip with some mild adjustments to see results (and to drive up the coast 🙂. )

I will keep posting pics as I adjust - so it becomes easier to read the indicators. Feel free to post your own observations - all perspectives welcome.

Screen Shot 2020-07-11 at 9.40.47 PM.jpg
50 miles with range of highway, country roads, steep long hill climbs, coastal roads, etc. little of everything.

images-5.jpeg
"metering rod". Red is idle end. Green WOT. It's tapered - so when it slides up and down through its fuel feed hole - with throttle position - hole opens/closes more or less with position of taper

Screen Shot 2020-05-08 at 7.06.53 PM.png
This shows the area I am focused on reading - the flat at the end of the threads

img_6361_78161.jpg
The EQ29 had the best 1mm brown ring after plug chop - though this picture doesn't do it justice.

IMG_6478.JPG
From 10 days ago. Had done similar ride. Wash - inside red - seems large. small fingernail max size I would like to see at ports.

IMG_6610.JPG
From today - after ride and adjustment to 1/8-1/4 throttle to make leaner. Looks like wash is shrinking - but still bit more than I would like

IMG_6613 2.JPG
flat looks too black to me. suggests rich at 1/8th - 1/4 throttle.

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2234
Location: London UK
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:33 pm quote
Piston picture looking better but when correct will be no sliver.
Smart carb seems to have the same issue as regular carbs, getting the correct mixture across the range is not easy. As you say rich at the bottom and correct at the top. Might be able to get it in with the height of the rod. The WOT has to be kept at 29, as a minimum, you have any richer rods? WOT might actually be slightly weak and this is why the bottom won't sit better.

To confuse the plug thing bit, the higher number plugs run darker for the same mixture. If you try it with a 6 and a 9 without changing the carb setting, you should see that the 6 looks good and the 9 looks black. And my point is yours doesn't run hot enough for a 9.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:32 am quote
Quote:
The WOT has to be kept at 29, as a minimum, you have any richer rods? WOT might actually be slightly weak and this is why the bottom won't sit better.
Welcome back - and with some good stuff out of the gate.
Re Smart Carb:
I'm an early adopter - so I expected to have to do some learning.
Agreed - if you look at my plug chop - its possible a 28 might be the ideal.

What I didnt note in my prior post.
I am running the 29 on its last click - as lean as it will go.
This mostly effects the bottom end (idle), where I suspect I am a little rich.

SC has a different range of rods - that are steeper in nature.
They come with the same numbers - which references the tip (WOT richness).
My EQ29 comes in an X29 (I made up X but they have some name for it).
I have an "X"29 and 28 coming - and I'll get a chance to try them both.

My guess is - the bike currently is better jetted than many a tuned engine - but I've come this far and might as well sweeten the last x%.
We can keep an eye on piston and plug to see how the changes effect.
Quote:
To confuse the plug thing bit, the higher number plugs run darker for the same mixture. If you try it with a 6 and a 9 without changing the carb setting, you should see that the 6 looks good and the 9 looks black. And my point is yours doesn't run hot enough for a 9.
That's interesting/unexpected. You may be right. BGM suggested the 9. I figured someone might call me on the plug temp given the chart I posted.
Plug's ground strap should change color at the turn - not along the flat.
According to the chart - I am... too cold.

IMG_6601.JPG
Better pic of the plug's ground strap color change

Plug temp read.png
Plug temp read - too cold

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 298
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:50 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
WOT might actually be slightly weak
Jack, when you say "weak" do you mean Rich or Lean?
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5335
Location: So Cal
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:13 pm quote
Little update for those following along ...

Went for a romp with MJ Rally and the north San Diego crew yesterday ... and charlieman joined us with his Super Hack.

Did a big 4 hr loop out from Oceanside east on the Del Dios Hwy. Lots of WOT and up and down hill cruising. Stopped for lunch and cervezas at Fidels in Solana Beach... then back up the coast.

CM’s hack performed like a champ. It moves like a demon. The BGM is dialed in nicely.

CM almost came home with a roached P200 and some parts that happened to be for sale cheap nearby. But alas, it wasn’t meant to be.

Anyhow, heaps o‘ fun and good times!

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86, a not so normal pts100 '82 and a red lipstick '74 sprint
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5684
Location: Indo
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:51 pm quote
Thats cool, u guys rocks
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:59 pm quote
Hahahahaha!
I was so worn out from loading and unloading that thing in to the pick up - I couldn't bring myself to do a post ride post.

Many thanks to the North County SD guys.
Very kind to have included me - and a ton of fun riding on roads I had no idea existed.

SoCal's yellow Super with its puny 8" wheels was tough to keep up with!
MJ captains the crew and rides like the wind - fun to follow.
Good group and well worth the work to get the scoot down there for a ride.

How far did we actually ride?!
I still have no idea where we went.
hahaha!

IMG_6684.PNG
Surreptitious shot of the yellow demon with 8" tires

bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5335
Location: So Cal
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:39 am quote
Well let me just say that the Unicorn is one freaking impressive rig.

It not only hauls serious butt, it does it with another couple hundred pounds hanging off the side.

And until you’ve seen it in action, you really can’t fully appreciate the coolness of the leaner concept.

Mucho respect, CM. Seriously.

Can’t imagine what the next phase will be, but looking forward to it.

And more rides.
Molto Verboso
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1099
Location: California
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:48 am quote
Way to go guys great report and ride photo's.

Charlie's leaner sidecar is a marvel.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2234
Location: London UK
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:49 am quote
Cool ride. Can only wish I was there.

If CM can find his spanners and Dremel, there's about another 5bhp in that BGM yet.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:48 pm quote
Little update.
There is definitely more in the BGM - and I am looking forward to harvesting.
In the mean time - I've been working with the Smart Carb to see if I could optimize.

The plug chop at WOT with the EQ29 rod showed I was right on for fuel mix - or even a hair lean - but the piston said rich.
Have a look at the images below.
You can see that the area on top of the piston top - just next to the transfer ports - is heavily "washed" - where the fuel comes in and cleans it off.
This suggests too rich.
Also still had a little bit of 4 stroking down low around 1/8th throttle.

With these bits of info - plug chop/4 stroke/ and piston top read - I figured I was probably running rich down low - and on target or a little lean up high.

So I switched to a different metering rod type - its their EK series - and it has a steeper angle.
The steeper angle gives more fuel richness differential between WOT and 1/8th throttle compared to the EQ series.

Using a set of calipers - I measured the tip of the EQ rod I had done the plug chop on - and then lap sanded the new EK to match.
This left me with a metering rod that matched my EQ28 at the tip (WOT) but was significantly leaner at the 1/8th throttle.

Though I know better - I did this the day prior to riding 50+ miles with MJ and SoCal.
Editors note - if you ever wondered what SoCal looks like - he is the spitting image of Sam Eliot - only on a yellow scooter.
Anyway - I made a jetting change/ did a quick test in the neighborhood - and decided to run with it.
Have to say - it is a real wow.
The motor is making that ever elusive BaWAAAAAAAA sound when I open it up.
It is the sound of Trees being felled in the Pacific North West - and when I get it - I know I have a motor properly jetted in.

Below are the final runs with the BGM in its stock state.
Have massively enjoyed riding with this - though it could just use that extra 1000-1500 RPM of rev range.
The Malossi delivers tomorrow - and perhaps this weekend will make its debut.
We will see.

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Piston top July 1st. EQ 29 I believe. WOT plug chop said edge of lean - but piston says swimming in fuel.

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After 50+ miles with SoCal and MJ. you can see how the piston is coloring out to the vaunted pinky width of wash that I was targeting. Few new ping marks perhaps from experimentation - will keep an eye

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Speed runs

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SoCal (on a good day with a tux on)
:-)

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2234
Location: London UK
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:40 pm quote
Why is this not tuned yet? Just a few hours work.

Looks like it needs to be a bit richer at the top yet. Soon as its tuned it will need a few needles even richer.

Last edited by Jack221 on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1527
Location: california
Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:44 pm quote
Richer needles - on the shelf at the ready.
Tks. Good head's up.
Method to the madness.
Stay tuned.
So to speak.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 298
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:11 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
WOT might actually be slightly weak
Jack, when you say "weak" do you mean Rich or Lean?
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7802
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:17 am quote


Probably the 'coolest' setup here IMO! A true inspiration of what's possible when you have fresh ideas that push the envelope no, rip it wide open! And all done patiently and properly, plus now demonstrating it's not just for show with a serious road trip along with others that like to go fast. No problem!

Well the only problem for me is that you don't live in Seattle, but that's OK coz there's so much here we all can enjoy vicariously.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2234
Location: London UK
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:18 am quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
WOT might actually be slightly weak
Jack, when you say "weak" do you mean Rich or Lean?
Weak is lean
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2234
Location: London UK
Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:24 am quote
I think you're changing the plan and going to run the MHR bolt on next. It will be interesting how this compares with the bolt on BGM. But both a bit of a yawn compared to the tuned versions.

With your jetting you might be falling into one of the beginner traps. Those ping marks mean it's very lean at WOT. If compromising WOT to make the mid run better it will not end correctly. Work out the needle tip that gives good WOT and work back from there. Seems the smart carb has the same issues as regular carbs when it comes to needles.
Addicted
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 874
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:03 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Method to the madness.
Stay tuned.
So to speak.
Only one question... where is the passenger? Surely this thing pulls more than just rubber
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