Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:47 am quote
Ebeth - damn - if you got the wheel any further in the mud guard it would rub the top of the tire! Great fit!

(Love the purple paint on the "Transformer's robot" see through upper shock mount).

Interesting: You managed to get a really small clearance between the mud guard and the horn cast. The PX fork lower bearing mount must have a smaller distance from it to the curved part of the fork where the shock mount are - compared to the PK.

Your clearance between the horn cast and the top of the mud guard - looks better than Piaggio factory clearance!

BTW - your fork could be cut MORE so that you had a steeper trailing link angle - if you wanted to make the steering feel lighter. This would not affect height - just trailing link angle (yours looks pretty close to 90).

Do you like that feel of strong "center of the road"?
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:41 pm quote
Spent the week assembling and taking apart the front end - as I tried to solve for the disc break - and PK fork.

- Give as "stock" a look as I can
- Means mud guard edge needs to be about as low as top edge of wheel.
- Also - fit everything under stock VBB guard - without punching out side or top for shock.
- Trailing link at ~105 degrees (suspect I am not going to like the effect of this target and will want a "taller" angle with more responsiveness/ less center of the road feel - we will see after I test - it's adjustable).
- Horncast to mud guard gap - minimize to give nice look - not fully there yet.
- Back of mud guard to leg shield - came to see how this line is part of what gives the VBB it's compact look.

Ginch - Ended up having to cut the PK fork down 25MM - The guy was able to do it at the lug at the bottom after he saw my pics of inside the fork. I was skeptical based on your notes - but he was adamant once he saw inside. Tks for the view point/ head's up. Allowed me to query him pretty hard before release of the job.

Ebeth - Your pic this morning was a little inspiration. Realized that the PX fork must have better geometry - slightly lower bearing mount relative to where the mud guard sits. Sparked an idea to build up weld the lower mount area - then lathe down - to allow a bit closer gap for my PK fork like you achieved with the PX. Thanks!

Pheas' wholly cow you saved my bacon by mentioning the upper bearing size difference. No idea what drew you to measure that - would have beaten that area to death before I realized the issue. Tks!

Here is a quick vid of a walk around.
Not finished but close.
Pics below are ok - but video is probably closer to live impression.



IMG_9295.jpg
Goal - this was the "stock" VBB, 10" wheels - all the areas I was focused on

IMG_9546.jpg
Ground and curved top of PK mount to allow guard to sit down nicely on it. SIP engineer tipped me off - grab some M6 bolts in lengths and lots of washers - to allow fine tuning of angle and fore aft heights

IMG_9537.jpg
PK fork was ~25-30mm longer than VBB - so to avoid the chopper look, I took advantage of that and cut 25MM out. Found 35yr plus experienced welder - brought the pics of the inside of the fork so he could see what it looked like, some cash, and a six pack

IMG_9539.jpg
did a quick paint job and let it dry while I went back to grinding parts that didn't fit.

IMG_9580.jpg
BGM engineer just did a spit take when he saw this ( see Pheas's note on not modifying shocks...) Note the shock body has been shortened by threading it down through the bottom of the mount - and to allow it to thread down further, while keeping some spr

IMG_9552.jpg
Assembled and compressed using some clamps - to test for any binding or weirdness - found a few minor areas that needed additional grinding - was helpful.

IMG_9544.jpg
For fucks sake - is there anything that doesn't need to be ground to properly fit the bike?

IMG_9574.jpg
End result - gap to horn cast is a few MM more than I would like. Had some issues with steering stops (missed the frame) and lower bearing (bought wrong ones) so when I strip it down to address next time - considering a little finesse of the lower bearin

IMG_9576.jpg
One more beauty shot - guard sits pretty snuggly over front end - this is from a kneeling position - seams really compact and tidy. Few washers still needed to level and center it a bit more - but its close.

Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:46 am quote
Nice work! Grinding ftw. What angle did you end up with?

All that angling of the shock has meant you can pull this off with a VBB guard. Surprised they don't sell a solution for exactly that. A modified top mount (with the proviso that you grind the excess fork material) and an axel seating that angles the shock in by ~6deg (or whatever you figured it to be). I don't understand shock dynamics/physics - but people have been changing the angle of the rear shock (repositioning the top mount) for quite some time - haven't heard of any issues from doing that.

Oh and btw... my offset must be coming from the SIP rim. The disc only just clears the swing arm. Only other variable is the S&C hub. Will chuck the PX star on to check this.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:40 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ginch - Ended up having to cut the PK fork down 25MM - The guy was able to do it at the lug at the bottom after he saw my pics of inside the fork. I was skeptical based on your notes - but he was adamant once he saw inside. Tks for the view point/ head's up. Allowed me to query him pretty hard before release of the job.
Do you have pictures of the process? Would be very useful to those who come along later.
Is your fork a stock PK, not a conversion fork? I did mention the big gap before you bought it. The conversion fork already has the bearing seat machined a bit lower iirc. PX fork can be too close sometimes, barely leaving room for the bolt heads under the horncast!

You mention many times about the feel that different swing arm angles will give. Broadly speaking, you are probably correct. However - and I think those of us who have done the conversion (and ridden it) will attest - the difference is not that clear and far harder to put your finger on than you theorise.
If it was as clear and obvious as you think, it would make bumpy corners an absolute nightmare, as the angle changes...think about it.

The P's have a far higher angle than what your SIP guy suggests - new from the factory. First P I rode after the Super with original setup, I actually found it kind of hard to turn! The tracking and stability of the P is surprisingly different to the earlier models.

Having got that off my chest, you probably want yours to have better tracking than a standalone scooter, because of the sidecar. Lots of people with a sidecar end up with a steering damper (I see yours did) so that might give you some notion.

To my eye, the real stock VBB front wheel/mudguard looks shit. I think you're using your (10" converted) scooter as an example of 'stock-looking' when it actually isn't... it's kind of confusing to read as someone who knows what it's supposed to look like. I'm sure this thread will come up in google searches and it would be nice for those readers to know what is correct for the model and what isn't. I hope you understand that I'm not having a go at you, it's perhaps that you write with authority - which may confuse people less well researched.



Lastly - site-specific - there is only a small amount of text possible when you upload a photo, and I see many of your comments are cut off due to that. If you want to show all the text, better to host your pictures somewhere and link them using the IMG tags... downside is the hosts sometimes change their rules (photobucket anyone?) or the pics get deleted and future readers are left wondering what the f you are talking about.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:42 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Brother E ...

Hopefully in a suitcase when I visit for a rally.
Bali. 2020 Vespa World Days. Be there!!!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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Location: seattle/athens
Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:57 am quote
Mission accomplished!
And looks like it's well done w/ the desired results. Now you've helped inspire me to dust off one of my 98% done projects and finally deal w/ the fork. You've made it look well worth the effort if I do my homework. It'll never look as nice as yours or stop as well, but at least the suspension will work better.


It's an old widebody w/ a P200 fork that needs to be shortened. I fiddled the bottom shock mounting to get the front down, knowing I was gonna lose some travel. Yup, bottoms out on a good bump so I need that travel back.

Also, right you are on getting ALL the bearing diameters right. It took some hunting and trial fitting to get the P fork in there and turning properly. Fitting the mudguard was a challenge as you mention. Here it is up in the air before the shock mount mods, you can see the mudguard is shifted left a little to fit the P fork & shock top.

Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:40 am quote
Quote:
Mission accomplished!
And looks like it's well done w/ the desired results. Now you've helped inspire me to dust off one of my 98% done projects and finally deal w/ the fork.
Vo oodo - thanks! Love the small tail light look of yours - allows full curves to show. Gonna be a sweet ride! See notes below - I will publish a recap of key steps so simpler to follow.

Ginch;
Quote:
Do you have pictures of the process? Would be very useful to those who come along later.
I have tried to post as I went along - but its now spread over 6 pages... I also shot more so perhaps I can do a recap here of the "best of" key elements.
Quote:
Is your fork a stock PK, not a conversion fork? I did mention the big gap before you bought it.
It's a PK conversion. For those reading - I got mine from SIP. Pheas' got his from Scooter Center. They are identical.

Your head's up on the issues I would face was central to helping me think it through. I hadn't fully grasped the closer gap on the PX vs the PK tho until I saw Ebeth's PK. Man - that is a close fit on the horncast to mud guard - but it looks really nice.

If I were doing it again with my current understanding/ and amount of modifying I have done to the PK conversion - I would probably start with a PX. It just seemed daunting to even figure out what had to change, before I had handled all the parts. The off the shelf "modified" PK seemed like the easier solution - turned out to be significant work to sweeten it to really get to where I was aiming.
Quote:
You mention many times about the feel that different swing arm angles will give.
Ha! I think I touched a nerve! Was really just trying to share what I learned as I went.

This started as fully theoretical - based on some internet reading about side cars and front end set up. You are right.

I was thinking - maybe it's not such a big deal. But on my trip to Germany - I spoke with S&S lead guy - and he was no fan of the PK conversion fork because of their trailing angle - I didn't even ask, he just brought it up. Then I spoke with the ace builder at SIP - and he said "don't go under 100 degrees - its not nice to drive. I have it on my bike now". Again - I hadn't mentioned. So I left figuring there was something to it - and decided I would use his advice as my target.

Then I dry fit the PK fork to my scoot last week. I had done a bunch of work to shorten the shock - so that angle was down around 95. I really didn't have any plan to shorten the fork - how different could that be? But then I experienced a really big difference (admittedly only sitting still) on the weight of the steering - the bike would turn the wheel itself every time I tried to work on it with steering turned to one side. I was fighting it repeatedly when working from the side.
That convinced me to cut the fork and restore an angle of +100 (I am at about 105) degrees. The bike is still doing that - its annoying as hell when working on it - and it is really different feeling than the stock VBB.

But you are right - I have not even ridden it on the street yet. Maybe it will be unnoticeable once it's rolling.

I will report back if there is any actual sensation difference.
Quote:
To my eye, the real stock VBB front wheel/mudguard looks shit. I think you're using your (10" converted) scooter as an example of 'stock-looking' when it actually isn't... it's kind of confusing to read as someone who knows what it's supposed to look like.
Chuckled. Agreed - the stock one now looks a little funny with the small wheel not really fitting inside.

I tried to put "stock looking" in quotes every time - because of the 10" wheel conversion - to ensure people understood my goal. Maybe that didn't translate. The fork and mud guard were stock - and that determined the fit to legshield/body.

My biggest goal was to avoid turning my sweet Italian honey in to an easy rider chopper. You flagged that as a likely disappointing outcome upfront - and I have seen a bunch of them that have that look. Not a fan.

I will post a recap - cutting out all the sh$t I got wrong - and giving all the tips of what helped me get to current state - so it is easier to follow for anyone that wants to use some of the tips and tricks. I could probably do this in a couple days now that I have spent 2 weeks taking it on and off and sorting out the areas that need focus.
Quote:
Lastly - site-specific - there is only a small amount of text possible when you upload a photo,
F*ck. I had intentionally gone that way so that anyone following would have text with photos explaining the image. Thanks for head's up... I'll truncate the explanations.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:30 am quote
Stock guard with 8" makes it look like an eagle's beak.

Vespa_VBB_L_1.jpg

Bald-Eagle-Memes.jpg

mighty eagle.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:25 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ginch;
Quote:
Do you have pictures of the process? Would be very useful to those who come along later.
I have tried to post as I went along - but its now spread over 6 pages... I also shot more so perhaps I can do a recap here of the "best of" key elements.
Actually what I mean is any pictures with the fork tube separated from the swingarm 'plug'. Not too many people get to see it that way!

A perfectly stock Vespa, with the front wheel in the air, will always have the front end fall to one side. This is one argument against giving them female names.



Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:53 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
Ginch;
Quote:
Do you have pictures of the process? Would be very useful to those who come along later.
I have tried to post as I went along - but its now spread over 6 pages... I also shot more so perhaps I can do a recap here of the "best of" key elements.
Actually what I mean is any pictures with the fork tube separated from the swingarm 'plug'. Not too many people get to see it that way!

A perfectly stock Vespa, with the front wheel in the air, will always have the front end fall to one side. This is one argument against giving them female names.



Are you saying women are perfectly balanced?

*the troll ducks for cover
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Location: Indo
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:41 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ebeth - damn - if you got the wheel any further in the mud guard it would rub the top of the tire! Great fit!

(Love the purple paint on the "Transformer's robot" see through upper shock mount).

Interesting: You managed to get a really small clearance between the mud guard and the horn cast. The PX fork lower bearing mount must have a smaller distance from it to the curved part of the fork where the shock mount are - compared to the PK.

Your clearance between the horn cast and the top of the mud guard - looks better than Piaggio factory clearance!

BTW - your fork could be cut MORE so that you had a steeper trailing link angle - if you wanted to make the steering feel lighter. This would not affect height - just trailing link angle (yours looks pretty close to 90).

Do you like that feel of strong "center of the road"?
this is the best advice that i heard.. why didnt i just cut the fork again.. its actually not 90 degree before when i use the smallie shock but i forget that my current shock is lower.. will work in out soon, thanks for the advice Brother C

I like the feel of center.. i even sometime showing of by rifing with no hands to show my friend that my bike is perfectly balance but the shock is just way to stiff.. maybe cause its nearly 90 degree
Good luck with the project and cheer Brother C



I can make it lower with a 300 tyre but it look kinna wrong
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:32 pm quote
Ebeth - Thanks! Great pics - Cheech and chong would be jealous of how low you managed to get that front mud guard. (google them if that makes no sense...)

Ginch has raised the question of how much effect the trailing arm angle has. Given his experience, I am now curious myself.

I am traveling for a few days - but when back I will run some tests for us to see and share them back here. Interesting you can feel such strong "center of the road" feel with your current set up.
Quote:
A perfectly stock Vespa, with the front wheel in the air, will always have the front end fall to one side. This is one argument against giving them female names.
Ha - indeed. Mine is turning when fully weighted - but now that you raised the challenge - I want to go back and see. I have a new tire on - unused. May have ended up with a smaller contact patch to garage floor. Will run some tests with both wheels (old and new from SIP) to see if that is also involved. See what we learn.
Quote:
Actually what I mean is any pictures with the fork tube separated from the swingarm 'plug'. Not too many people get to see it that way!
Feel like I missed on this one. In my defense - the welder was a classic. He was on phone when I came in - conjugated the word F*ck 5 different ways and then used it as a noun - all in the same sentence. Hung up - looked at me - and said "how can I help you". Once I convinced him to do the work - I got the f*ck out of his way...

I did get this back from him though. He said the toughest part was grinding off the lug weld without damaging the shoulder that was on the lug. Once he did that - "it was no problem". I also had a better pic from inside - the one I showed him that convinced him he wanted to do it this way. The lug does not fit tightly in the fork according to him. See below.[/b]

Screen Shot 2019-03-28 at 3.24.00 PM.jpg
If you look carefully, you can see that the lug has a crown shape - with a central rib. fork tube sits on lug shoulder

Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:52 pm quote
Struggling with the brake master cylinder functioning.
Welcome any insights.
Have installed the master and run the lines to the caliper.
Master will not build any pressure - no matter how many pump and bleed cycles done.
Have used syringe to reverse bleed the line to ensure it fills - also no help.
Interestingly, took master piston out - and found that the supplied rebuild kit includes a third seal that is not on my piston.
See pic.

Any experience/ thoughts welcome.
Thanks,
CM

FullSizeRender.jpg
O ring shaped seal with arrow does not appear to be on the piston anywhere. Suspect this might be the culprit. If yes, no idea where to place it.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:07 pm quote
Sounds like it's going all as per usual then.




It's so much easier to bleed a car than one of these and it just doesn't make sense. You just have to keep going.
Mine finally came good hours after several 'power' methods failed by just pumping. But the other day I tipped the scooter over on the stand to get a closer look at the brake disc. When I put it back down the lever was much firmer. So that might help to dislodge a bubble or two.
Vader used to use a tool - can't remember what it was but I imagined something like an orbital sander - taped to the caliper or M/C and turned on low for an hour. He had the lever taped open as well so it was basically an open pipe from bottom to top. The vibrations helped to bring the bubbles up he said.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:18 pm quote
Quote:
Sounds like it's going all as per usual then.
Ha! so true.

Having read your comment - re-energized to take another run at it tomorrow.

Used a syringe at the bleeder end today - caused the caliper to clamp right down on the disc - so that seems operable.

Of course -that was moments before the tube popped off the nipple and soaked me and my garage in brake fluid spray...
Like any good project - one moment I think I'm a genius - next - I'm like - nice job genius.

Im getting just a little press of fluid through when I open the nipple after 4-5 pumps of the break and hold it in as I open. There is not much force behind it - and no resistance at the handle. The master cylinder just doesn't seem to be getting any traction.

I was convinced the master was defective - but now wondering after reading your note - if I just haven't been able to clear the air from the master itself. Would be great if that is the case.

It all works out in the end - and if it hasn't worked out - its not the end...

Thanks!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1281
Location: London UK
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:29 pm quote
If you take the caliper off and put a packer between the pads its easier to encourage the air bubbles out. genius
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:38 pm quote
Quote:
put a packer between the pads
Assume packer is a small shim or cardboard that expands pistons back in to caliper further? Or is it the opposite? (speak english man!).



Input much appreciated.

CM.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1281
Location: London UK
Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:47 pm quote
OK. Another clue. The packer is to stop the pads touching like a disc replacement. Bleeding the brake with the caliper off will force the piston(s) out too far.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:54 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Im getting just a little press of fluid through when I open the nipple after 4-5 pumps of the break and hold it in as I open. There is not much force behind it - and no resistance at the handle. The master cylinder just doesn't seem to be getting any traction.
As well as taking the caliper off as Jack suggests (didn't really appear to make as much difference to mine as I thought it should, but everything is worth trying), how about loosening the connection to the master cylinder slightly? Then when you pump you should be able to tell if it's working, basically bleed the master cylinder first.

Such a painful process!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 220
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:05 am quote
I had the same problem last week.

To bleed my Crimaz Largeframe caliper/mc I filled one of these with about 150ml of brake fluid.



Link https://www.autobarn.com.au/to28502

Then I put the hose on the caliper bleed nipple, cracked it slightly, and spent about 10 minutes slowly and carefully pumping fluid up and down the hose, varying the level in the mc reservoir from full to nearly empty.

Every so often when I thought I was finished, bubbles would appear.

Eventually, after a minute or two of no bubbles, I locked the bleed nipple, taped the brake level tightly closed and came back the next day.

After a repeat I had a solidish lever, which I took for a good long ride, then re bled conventionally with the squeeze and lock car brake pedal method.

Problem solved.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:08 am quote
Quote:
OK. Another clue. The packer is to stop the pads touching like a disc replacement.
Chuckled. Indeed. Like it. Just the type of tip and trick I was looking for as I tackle t'day. Thanks!
Quote:
how about loosening the connection to the master cylinder slightly? T
Ginch - Plan to make this step one - if for nothing else - piece of mind while I pump the handle for 3 hours. Wanna know it's functioning. Plan to cover leg shield with towel and floor with cardboard, and not be too delicate. Thanks!
Quote:
I had the same problem last week.
Gt6MK3 - really helpful. Just what I needed - both technique and just basic understanding of level of difficulty in some cases to get the damn air out. Past experience with autos didn't translate at all - if this happened on a car - I would have pulled the MC and sent it back and told them to send me a non defective one...


All -

New world for me here - experience/tips/tricks super helpful to give perspective and angle of attack. Will don some gloves, flip on some tunes, and have at it again to see how I do.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:24 am quote
Houston...
We have brakes.

Methodically applied round of suggested steps:
- Brake master disconnect and check
- Drop caliper down to floor
- Reverse bleed (though with a smaller less capable syringe)

All told, full pull of brake handle provided no more than slight drag at caliper - handle going easily in and slapping throttle tube.

However - during reverse bleed, had to remove air bubble ea. time I connected the syringe tube to caliper nipple (small syringe meant repeated refill).
Tube was horizontal near nipple for just 3-4 mm - but bubble formed there would not move on its own -even with syringe held vertically above. Had to tap outside of tube repeatedly to loosen. Then it would move slooooly to syringe tip/clear tube junction - and hang permanently even though vertical. Hard taps directly to this area would break bubble up - and small bubbles would escape until all air was gone.

Takeaway: tapping helps bubbles move. horizontal sections are problematic. junctions will stop bubbles all together - need to be turned somewhat vertically and tapped directly to break up bubbles at these points.

Looking at bike - there were two problematic areas - horizontal and junctions.
1. Brake line run from caliper to fork tube entry.
2. Brake line run from fork exit on top to master cylinder - last ~250mm of brake line & master cyl junction

Based on Ginch's experience with tilting the bike - thought I would try and repeat. I took the bike and leaned it as far as it would go (easy with side car - just put box under wheel). This made the last ~250mm of brake line near MC slightly uphill - makes perfect sense. I also dropped caliper to floor to get rid of horizontal tube section in that area.

I then took a small rubber handled screw drive and played the 15 minute live version of Moby Dick (RIP John Bonham) on the brake line. Started at the caliper - focusing on the junction area to the brake line. Then up the break line to the fork - then at fork exit - and the last section outside the headset including the MC (have a hole drilled for the line to exit the head). Occasionally I pulled the break to release any bubbles - and tapped the MC reservoir at same time.

When I set the bike back down and put caliper on - I had breaks! Probably only 80% like Gt6 - I suspect I need to bump it around a little - and then bleed again with normal process.

Bike will be back on the road today for first time with new front end - after 3 day sidetrack on brake bleeding...

Great input from you guys! Thanks!









[/i]
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:30 pm quote
Having assembled the front end - decided to take the bike on its first legit ride outside the hood.

Drove along a twisty turny road at base of the Santa Monica mint's for about 5-10 miles ea way (with nice cafe pit stop in the middle).

Front brakes are superb - but gotta say - steering gets a little twitchy when wheel turned and disc is grabbed. Weight of sidecar is likely factor. May take it for a spin with no side car to see if this is the trailing link effect as well - just to test it out a little. Nothing to compare to really.

Rear disc would be a great addition - like getting my feet in play - and found my hands full with throttle open - and having to jump on breaks, double clutch down shift, in the middle of a turn. Kept stepping on my rear drum - but that thing is f*cking hopeless on a steep hill with turns - wtf did they do in Itally ?!

Couple shots of the headset and de-bodging (laugh - can only imagine the comments on that one). Here they are:

IMG_8470.jpg
As I got it. Black leg shield trim, blue rubber brake handles, blinding bling...

IMG_9632.jpg
Cleaned up.

IMG_9634.jpg
Masked and painted master cyl to break up the size visually - leaving reservoir polished/body painted

IMG_9631.jpg
View of master from other side. Bodge speedo gone - replaced with SIP + temp & tach.

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1468

Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:38 am quote
I had a rear SIP disc brake (left side outboard version, and semi-hyro) on my German style P215 street racer. It looked totally awesome back there...and didn't provide any more braking or better modulation than the stock drum brake did...but did I mention that it looked totally awesome? It also weighs lots more than the stock drum as well. I almost put it on my T5 track bike, but since it didn't provide any performance gain, it went back on my "Shelf O' Parts" to collect dust. Another one of the racers had the same rear disc on his 166 track bike as well. He was not impressed with it either. Maybe some time i'll get motivated to go full hydro with it and give it a second chance.

...and that's my 2 cents on the rear disc.


And the way your caliper is masked off and painted looks really sharp Charlie. I think having just one big block of bare aluminum on one side would make the scoot look unbalanced.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:48 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I think having just one big block of bare aluminum on one side would make the scoot look unbalanced.
But what if I want it to look unbalanced!!!???

download.jpeg

ive-fallen-and-i-cant-get-up-because-im-an-unbalanced-force.jpg

x0np6.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:42 am quote
I love how the M/C looks! Very neat indeed! To those not in the know, it doesn't shout "modified", just blends nicely in my view.

I'm not sure of your riding background, so forgive me... but do your braking and gear changing before the corner. If you are able to put on power through the corner, it'll stabilise you and often tend to give you a tighter line. Back off and you end up going wider.
Riding without the sidecar is such a good idea, I do it all year round!! But good idea to isolate the cause of any handling issues.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 220
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:51 am quote
I'm with Ginch here - brakes are for setting up, not for cornering.

(Post from here on is just personal opinion. YMMV)

Your rear brake isn't there for stopping, it's for positioning. It shouldn't stop your scoot, it should shift its weight, and get that weight to where you need it.

That said, if you can't lock up your boring, cable activated, drum braked, rear wheel on your largeframe by hammering the pedal at 30mph, then your cable isn't tight enough.

To set up your rear brake, stuff packers under the pedals its all the way up, lean a large lever on the drum adjuster till you think it will be stupidly tight, then tighten up the cable. Chuck the scooter in neutral, push it as fast as you can, jump on and hammer the foot pedal. If the pedal goes down over 3/4 tighten it up.

Repeat until your run and hammer tests are locking uptake rear wheel.

Start engine, ride around block and adjust cable until you can trust the feel of the rear brake to pull you up without either locking up, or ever going past 3/4 pedal.

Add sidecar, rinse and repeat.

Front brakes are for stopping, rear brakes are for manoeuvring. But badly adjusted rear brakes don't really help., and are easily improved.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:44 am quote
Alright you guys.
First - thanks for the props on the master cyl.
Reservoir kinda looks like it's just floating - nice effect.
Was pleased with that one.

On rear brake:
Gt6 - Lock it up? Ha - mostly I just get a subtle audible tone from pads sliding on inner drum to let me know brakes are now engaged. Thanks for the break set-up input. On my list.
Quote:
I'm not sure of your riding background, so forgive me... but do your braking and gear changing before the corner
Made me chuckle - reminded me of response I got from my very first post from Greasy. See #1 in pic below... You guys are funny.

Past experience auto-crossing - so grasp apex/accelerate.
Of course - could probably use some work with my scoot skills - so input/explanation from all - highly appreciated.
But with that said - driving the side car is like my Datsun, missing two wheels, with a wheel barrow hanging off the side.

You can just hammer it on lefts - and as long as nothing breaks it just digs in. More power!

But coming down a hill, with a right sweep - already hanging over the side car like I was Nadia Comaneci (google it) - and having the front wheel drive down in to the road when you get hard on the brakes due to stop sign - will cause a code brown.

The side car wheel doesn't just wanna rise - it wants to snap up in the air.
Leaves you with options of:
- take some turn out of it - into oncoming traffic...
- lean further right - gonna have to work on my yoga
- let go of the brakes - did I mention the stop sign?

I know you guys don't love sidecars - but when I am done with this thing - she is gonna break the bad handling paradigm if I have anything to say about it.

Some nice rear brake is gonna be a part of that - since the bike is flat in to the corner - due to side car.

WDC - sounds like what I heard about the semi hydro front's (though ik u had more luck than most with that setup). Will likely steer clear of it then.

In the short term - some rear brake tuning and some ballast in empty car are in store. Wanna optimize what I have - learn a little.

Now - when I make this thing a leaner (Ginch!)... it'l be all about that front brake. Headed there so i can keep up.

:-)

Screen Shot 2019-04-15 at 9.53.33 AM.jpg
See point #1...

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:16 pm quote



Just to reiterate (sorry!), front brake in a corner will always push you to the outside, and should be avoided. Until you get that leaning sidecar happening - and I'm really looking forward to seeing that! - you're just going to have to go slower on those right-handers. It would be bad enough that you tip the thing over, without the indignity of a big bag of ballast falling on top of you like Wile E Coyote!
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:41 pm quote
Ha!
I once tied myself to a claw foot tub so I could work outside the second floor window...
Balast in sidecar to be secured. Good point.
Not looking to win any Darwin awards.

BTW - Took sidecar off and had a ride t'day.
Such a night and day difference.
Whole style of riding changes.
Slow in to corner - charge out of them.
So nice to lean in.
Braking - all about the front break.
I get why you guys were miffed when I started talking rear break.

One thing about the full combo - sidecar and scoot - when its together.
Stops and starts are completely different.
A little more car like.
Foot brake nice to use - as there is no demand for feet to be put down to ground at stops.

Oh - and Gt6 - rinsed and repeated on rear drum a few times...
Not there yet - but improved. Tks.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5409
Location: Indo
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:40 am quote
I have a sidecar once in my youth, the basic thing is when u turn u cannot rely on ur shoulder only gotta have to use the waist as well, good luck on the ride and cheer Brother C
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:06 pm quote
Tuning question
Quote:
gotta have to use the waist as well
Ebeth - I use that method all the time. I will try applying it to my scooter riding now also...



Tuning question for the crowd.

Have taken a bunch of play out of the side car to scoot connection - highly improved. Now its getting fun. Driven a tank out of it - whole different experience.

Questions - perhaps related.
1. Weirdly, hard right turns where I goose it coming out - engine bogs/dead/hesitation. Just momentarily - like gas sloshed and is being starved (maybe it is!) Doesn't do it up hills under load or on hard lefts. (I swear - you can't make this stuff up).

2. Road it hard today on that same curvy stretch near house. 4K RPM and above - just no high end throttle. Plenty of pull on first 1/3 throttle. In fact - I can rev about same speed through gears opening throttle 1/3 - 1/2. Just feels like I have no oomph with second half of throttle. Just slight audible change as throat is more open.

3. I got a few random back fires while I was cruising t'day - out of no where - like the engine just missed. It was warm out. Temp of engine normally around 175/180 but saw it had created up to about 200 - but nothing extreme. Happened a few times.

Any thoughts on above welcome - thanks in advance.

Oh - and here was my solution for the SIP speedo phase change button - comes with SIP speedo. Ran it through old brake cable hole from speed - and in to the button box - then drilled small hole and mounted under master. Not as nice as Pheas's jewelry box - but keeps the "stockish" look of my headset intact.

FullSizeRender.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:14 pm quote
I'm guesssing the fuel is indeed sloshing. If you think about what happens under normal conditions, the scooter would be leaning into the turn so the level of fuel in the bowl stays closer to what it would look like on the flat.

With the scooter upright, that all changes. Not sure how you address that. Other styles of carb may deal with it better. But aren't you going to put an electric motor in?
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:18 pm quote
The classic set up with gears are just too much damn fun.
Managed to cruz at about 38mph today - so proud.
Hahaha.

If I went electric - as is - I would be board to tears.
Need to keep the joy.

So my plan is:
- get bike in best shape I can - taking as much play out of the connection between the bike and sidecar.
- get a sense for how reliable it can be - limitations of motor - while learning about side care set up.
- run it hard - miss some shifts - turn some wrenches - learn what I learn - and enjoy - while I devise a leaner solution.
I'm cautious about going overboard on upgrades. I am not about to split the case - but i might weld a few baffles in to the gas tank - or try a fast flow fuel tap - to help it run better.

The electric motor will be the last thing I do - after I have the side care set up sweetened - unless I blow it up first - which is entirely possible.

note: if there is a vespa leaner out there - I cant find it. likely reason - floor board is anathema to leaner design - would hit the connecting pipes.
but I see a solution that incorporates a connection to the tunnel - which is why I was asking the community for info on that section.

When I took my fuel tank out and scrubbed it out - I was surprised by how sloooow the fuel tap allowed gas through. I wonder if my occasional backfire/right turn starvation/ gutless open throttle - might be slow fuel flow?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6886
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:53 am quote
Maybe still being dialed in, Charlie, but that is one beautiful setup and you are giving it some nice enhancements.
Serious case of Vespalove here.
Staying tuned...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6888
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:43 am quote
I meant to mention earlier... backfire usually means a timing issue. Is it on points? There are plenty better than me with points, but I think that means condensor problems.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5409
Location: Indo
Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:29 am quote
maybe the contact breaker is worn
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:37 am quote
Your ride is looking legit for Cali man. If you get leaning sussed out... If that was once a 'bodge'... it certainly is now! Glitching ftw. That sidecar build is awesome. You have tied the performance in really well.
Hooked
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 436
Location: california
Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:52 am quote
Thanks gents.
If it didn't read through - my assumption is - a leaner set up with electric would still be a ton of fun - even without the joy of the downshift.

Combo would be smooth/powerful/ great in the twisty turnys.

1. Sweeten current side car set up as is (non learner)
2. Tune bike a bit for power to max enjoyment factor.
3. Build leaner frame from scratch/ tune set-up in to bike - using 2 stroke nicely running as mule.
4. Go electric in season 2 - unless of course... I blow up existing motor/gearbox this season...

ride/ride/ride.

Ginch - Previously converted to 12v - but still on points & condenser.

Not really justifiable to invest in electronic ignition - but then again - I didn't buy this thing as an investment. :-)

Do you guys have a fave elec. ignition kit for non battery 150?
Was night and day improvement to my old 4 cyl autocross vehicles.
Think I burned only half the gas through combustion chamber previously.
Is it worth it on a non battery 2 stroke?

Could be on the summer list. :-)
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 362
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:40 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Thanks gents.
If it didn't read through - my assumption is - a leaner set up with electric would still be a ton of fun - even without the joy of the downshift.

Combo would be smooth/powerful/ great in the twisty turnys.

1. Sweeten current side car set up as is (non learner)
2. Tune bike a bit for power to max enjoyment factor.
3. Build leaner frame from scratch/ tune set-up in to bike - using 2 stroke nicely running as mule.
4. Go electric in season 2 - unless of course... I blow up existing motor/gearbox this season...

ride/ride/ride.

Ginch - Previously converted to 12v - but still on points & condenser.

Not really justifiable to invest in electronic ignition - but then again - I didn't buy this thing as an investment.

Do you guys have a fave elec. ignition kit for non battery 150?
Was night and day improvement to my old 4 cyl autocross vehicles.
Think I burned only half the gas through combustion chamber previously.
Is it worth it on a non battery 2 stroke?

Could be on the summer list.
Put a P200 in it. Run it stock. Nothing's gonna blow up anytime soon.

Wonder if you could link an electric drive just for the sidecar... Sorting the power delivery would be tricky. Probably get some kid to program an app to do it tho.
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