old hands need new clutch..devolution
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Addicted
Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
Joined: 07 Nov 2013
Posts: 549
Location: New Zealand
Thu May 09, 2019 12:56 pm quote
at 52 its getting harder to pull the clutch handle in.....all because of stronger springs, 4 plates. banded baskets 22 teeth that I installed through my 40s to harvest power from the tuning bug

Twas thinking of devolution using a stock standard clutch and springs in a dr177 tune and then thought someones had prob done it already

will it slip?
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1518
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm quote
COSA II clutch, 4 stock springs & 4 SIP "L" springs, CR80 plates and it's like butter on my Ratty longstroke PX200. If you want to take it further, the MRP "adjustable" actuator will help even more...
Ossessionato
1979 P200e
Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Posts: 2418
Location: Lock Haven, PA
Thu May 09, 2019 2:59 pm quote
OK, first thought that popped into my head....

Are we not men? We are DEVO!

Which actually stood for de-evolution

[img]http://stmedia.stimg.co/ctyp_devo_press.jpg?w=800[/img]
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 949
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Thu May 09, 2019 3:22 pm quote
DR177 does not need anything but a stock, 6 spring clutch. It will not slip.
Hooked
2006 px125
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 106
Location: Not Sunny Southport
Thu May 09, 2019 3:24 pm quote
https://beedspeed.com/products/vespa-clutch-easy-clutch-full-kit

I've knackered hands/wrists and stumbled on this whilst looking for future mods due to health
Addicted
Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
Joined: 07 Nov 2013
Posts: 549
Location: New Zealand
Thu May 09, 2019 6:45 pm quote
whip it good
Woops..should have mentioned its VBC cases so PX 200 clutch wont fit (even tho I have ground away the oil channel in the clutch cover to accommodate the banded basket (smaller diameter clutch to PX)

yo ruffstuff...I could not see any deets on the easy clutch..how do they achieve it.....physics and fulcrums on the lclutch cover lever?????
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6941
Location: Victoria, Australia
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1103
Location: UK (South East)
Fri May 10, 2019 12:40 am quote
I'm using a stock Cosa II in my PX/DR177. It operates perfectly and is a breeze to use. It's my city scoot, as none of my other PXs are welcome in central London any more (ULEZ). The light clutch is a real bonus in traffic, combined with the peppy pull of the DR.
Hooked
2006 px125
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 106
Location: Not Sunny Southport
Fri May 10, 2019 12:47 am quote
Re: whip it good
Bluecati wrote:
yo ruffstuff...I could not see any deets on the easy clutch..how do they achieve it.....physics and fulcrums on the lclutch cover lever?????
I presume it's a cable guide/ in there so you pull cable 1 and it makes cable 2 do more work, like a problem solver for a mtb mech, only guessing tho
Member
1972 Vespa Rally 180, Piaggio LT 150
Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 49
Location: Austin, TX
Fri May 10, 2019 6:52 am quote
Yep, it's using the mechanical advantage of a fulcrum. Move the center of effort out from the pivot point and it multiplies the force exerted.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1103
Location: UK (South East)
Fri May 10, 2019 7:49 am quote
Re: whip it good
Bluecati wrote:
Woops..should have mentioned its VBC cases so PX 200 clutch wont fit (even tho I have ground away the oil channel in the clutch cover to accommodate the banded basket (smaller diameter clutch to PX)
Cosa clutch fits fine in my VBC case. It's the banded SIP Sport type and case is 1976 VBC. Like Sprint V or early P series, but with old crank + bearings setup.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1518
Location: Veria, Greece
Hooked
1974 Vespa Primavera 125, 1980 Bajaj Chetak
Joined: 07 Jul 2017
Posts: 389
Location: Boston, MA
Mon May 13, 2019 6:54 am quote
Crimaz makes a push rod clutch that is supposed to be great. It's available for about $60 and available from SIP. You could also go with a hydraulic clutch.
Molto Verboso
px200
Joined: 13 Apr 2010
Posts: 1262
Location: london
Mon May 13, 2019 1:51 pm quote
I assume you have tried a dogleg lever.

Grumpy
Hooked
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
Posts: 136
Location: San Francisco
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:46 am quote
Bazziemoto wrote:
Crimaz makes a push rod clutch that is supposed to be great. It's available for about $60 and available from SIP. You could also go with a hydraulic clutch.
Do you know anyone who has installed the Crimaz push rod on a smallframe?!
Hooked
1974 Vespa Primavera 125, 1980 Bajaj Chetak
Joined: 07 Jul 2017
Posts: 389
Location: Boston, MA
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:54 pm quote
kent_kurt wrote:
Do you know anyone who has installed the Crimaz push rod on a smallframe?!
I know someone who was going to install one on a race bike. Let me check in with him to see if that ever happened.
Grumpy wrote:
I assume you have tried a dogleg lever.
I have doglegs on both my bikes and while they do allow you to get more grip on the levers, they definitely don't make them any easier to pull.

Also, to the OP, do you pull the clutch in every time you shift?
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1551

Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:01 pm quote
Bazziemoto wrote:
Crimaz makes a push rod clutch that is supposed to be great. It's available for about $60 and available from SIP.
I know they make one for a Smallframe, but I've never heard of one for the largeframe. Do you have a link?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6978
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:14 pm quote
Bazziemoto wrote:
...
Grumpy wrote:
I assume you have tried a dogleg lever.
I have doglegs on both my bikes and while they do allow you to get more grip on the levers, they definitely don't make them any easier to pull.

...
I think that they do for me. I know that they don't add any mechanical advantage like some of the solutions posted, but they do allow me to squeeze in a position where my hand is more fully closed and my fingers aren't reaching so I think I have more strength there. Works even better with adjustable doglegs because it's so easy to find the sweet spot.



Also check to see that you clutch cable OUTER is not longer than necessary. Too much extra outer means S curves inside the tunnel which can increase friction considerably, especially if starving for lubrication and the longer the excess, the tighter the S bends.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6941
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 pm quote
kent_kurt wrote:
Bazziemoto wrote:
Crimaz makes a push rod clutch that is supposed to be great. It's available for about $60 and available from SIP. You could also go with a hydraulic clutch.
Do you know anyone who has installed the Crimaz push rod on a smallframe?!
I have, but haven't tested it yet.
whodatschrome wrote:
I know they make one for a Smallframe, but I've never heard of one for the largeframe. Do you have a link?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+crimaz+clutch+geared_87724000

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1551

Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:28 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
kent_kurt wrote:
Bazziemoto wrote:
Crimaz makes a push rod clutch that is supposed to be great. It's available for about $60 and available from SIP. You could also go with a hydraulic clutch.
Do you know anyone who has installed the Crimaz push rod on a smallframe?!
I have, but haven't tested it yet.
whodatschrome wrote:
I know they make one for a Smallframe, but I've never heard of one for the largeframe. Do you have a link?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/push+rod+crimaz+clutch+geared_87724000

Thank you Ginch, me likes!!
Member
px244gs, cosa221LX, sprint177, gilera runner 180, triumph tiger 955
Joined: 09 Sep 2013
Posts: 43
Location: vienna/austria (the other one, w/o kangaroos)
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:22 pm quote
GickSpeed wrote:
DR177 does not need anything but a stock, 6 spring clutch. It will not slip.
Exactly. And if it slips, the springs are to be replaced, withnoeigonal ones.. Always! Use the weakest possible spings to protect your big clutch bearing.
Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 7419
Location: San Francisco
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:53 am quote
the torque on a large frame clutch is rather low compared to motorcycles, smallframes, and lambrettas, since it rotates at crank speed and the gear reduction comes after it.

but, if it slips adding plates instead of stronger springs will address it without making it harder to pull.
Hooked
2001 LML 150
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 301
Location: Melb, Aus
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:51 pm quote
This guy is totally onto the light clutch.

Unfortunately they don't make them for vespas, but the idea is transferable if someone has the engineering skills.

https://www.clake.com.au/onelightclutch/
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1551

Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:11 pm quote
Philos wrote:
This guy is totally onto the light clutch.

Unfortunately they don't make them for vespas, but the idea is transferable if someone has the engineering skills.

https://www.clake.com.au/onelightclutch/
I currently have those OLC Clake clutches on three of my KTMís. Thereís definitely pros and cons to them.

You could install a Liztor hydro clutch cover, them fab up a mount for the OLC clutch master cylinder. I canít remember exactly what the piston bore is on the Clake unit though...I think it might be a 9mm?
https://www.kytronik.com/products/cnc-hydraulic-clutch-cover-for-vespa-px-cosa
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6941
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:58 pm quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
...but, if it slips adding plates instead of stronger springs will address it without making it harder to pull.
How can that be achieved?
whodatschrome wrote:
Philos wrote:
This guy is totally onto the light clutch.

Unfortunately they don't make them for vespas, but the idea is transferable if someone has the engineering skills.

https://www.clake.com.au/onelightclutch/
I currently have those OLC Clake clutches on three of my KTMís. Thereís definitely pros and cons to them.

You could install a Liztor hydro clutch cover, them fab up a mount for the OLC clutch master cylinder. I canít remember exactly what the piston bore is on the Clake unit though...I think it might be a 9mm?
https://www.kytronik.com/products/cnc-hydraulic-clutch-cover-for-vespa-px-cosa
WDC what are the downsides, and if using your suggestion would they be present as well?
Banned
2:6
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Posts: 7419
Location: San Francisco
Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:34 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
oopsclunkthud wrote:
...but, if it slips adding plates instead of stronger springs will address it without making it harder to pull.
the holding capability is proportional to:
pressure of the springs * Number of plates * diameter

the pulling force is only proportional to:
pressure of the springs / leverage

so if you buy a 4 plate set and don't use the heavy springs you get 33% more holding force with zero added pulling force

Did this on our yellow smallframe (that is still for sale)
Hooked
2001 LML 150
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 301
Location: Melb, Aus
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:43 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Philos wrote:
This guy is totally onto the light clutch.

Unfortunately they don't make them for vespas, but the idea is transferable if someone has the engineering skills.

https://www.clake.com.au/onelightclutch/
I currently have those OLC Clake clutches on three of my KTMís. Thereís definitely pros and cons to them.

You could install a Liztor hydro clutch cover, them fab up a mount for the OLC clutch master cylinder. I canít remember exactly what the piston bore is on the Clake unit though...I think it might be a 9mm?
https://www.kytronik.com/products/cnc-hydraulic-clutch-cover-for-vespa-px-cosa
I'm quite sure 9.5mm is the piston size.

If you have any concerns with the OLC, I'd encourage you to email/call Owen (the manufacturer). He's super approachable and I'm sure he'll try and help you out.
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