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Sad, it looks like Notre Dame is going down in flames. I always wanted to see it and visit France when I retired, but I guess not now. Of course the real question is what will France do after losing such an iconic landmark? My guess would be the roofing contractor but still.... you would have to think doing work on such a historical and architecturally significant building there would be safety measures up the yahoo.

At least I got to see the WTC when it was around and have been to a few historical cities to see masterpieces. I work with a LOT of architects so while I am not one I can tell you it will be considered a great loss as it's history and architecture are both significant. I don't think we have too many members here from France but I can only imagine what the news is like there now.

Hopefully some of the structure will be saved, but it does not look good.
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Wait...wtf????

Heading to Google and news.....
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Ugh. Sick to my stomach.
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This is a hard day for Parisians for sure.

I've been in the Notre Dame many times, the last one not so long time ago. A wonderfull place to listen church choirs, interesting acoustics.

Will be restored, I'm sure about that, but it will require quite a lot of work....apparently good luck that there are no casualties? At least I've not seen any notion about that.
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This one hurts and apparently many of my friends who visited the Cathedral. It was built to elicit strong emotions, which it does in spades! The architecture, the light spilling inside the cathedral form the stain glassed windows. (and how a camera doesn't quite ever do it justice). The whispers of various languages that can be heard while walking through the building...

We had hoped to take our children to Paris in the next few years and obviously take them to Notre Dam...This one hurts as we went to Paris for our 8th anniversary and much of our first few hours in the city was exploring this building. I truly feel heartbroken for the Parisian's and all others who feel this loss.
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Match
Well, it's not gone.

Not yet anyway.

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What a loss for Paris and the world. I did not realize so much of it was built of wood.
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Yes, it's truly tragic. I've not been to Paris, other than the airport.... I will have to remedy this soon.

An architecturally significant structure....
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Just awful looking at the pictures. Had to look away after a while.
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So sad. I took several trips to Paris with students during the 90s and 00s, ND was always a hit. Every time I went, I saw something I had not noticed before. The windows alone were amazing treasures.
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Re: [NSR] Another Landmark Gone
Harbinger wrote:
Sad, it looks like Notre Dame is going down in flames. I always wanted to see it and visit France when I retired, but I guess not now. Of course the real question is what will France do after losing such an iconic landmark? My guess would be the roofing contractor but still.... you would have to think doing work on such a historical and architecturally significant building there would be safety measures up the yahoo.

At least I got to see the WTC when it was around and have been to a few historical cities to see masterpieces. I work with a LOT of architects so while I am not one I can tell you it will be considered a great loss as it's history and architecture are both significant. I don't think we have too many members here from France but I can only imagine what the news is like there now.

Hopefully some of the structure will be saved, but it does not look good.
What a tragedy. My wife and I were just there last October, visiting Paris for our 25th wedding anniversary. We toured Notre Dame as well, and saw all of the renovations taking place. It's heartbreaking to see the whole ceiling burn away. I saw drone footage, and it looks as if the entire ceiling has collapsed. Terrible.
Photo of Notre Dame cathedral, showing renovation work - October, 2018
Photo of Notre Dame cathedral, showing renovation work - October, 2018
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Anxious to see if it's salvageable.
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This is truly saddening news.

Why did this roof burn so fast?

250 tons of lead roofing burning, make for intense fires. Normal water cannot tackle this heat, plus the immense size, and quantity of old and dried beams, like torso-thick beams, and burning lead, this is a major fire!

I worry too, the extensive, artful glass work will be ruined. This is a major loss to humanity!

The glass pieces, were bound by lead. Lead melts at a low temp. I'm worried.

I do hope fire inspectors will find a reliable cause, and this being an accident, and not hate.
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Speechless loss of hundreds of years of history. Hopefully not thousands of years of history, if they have saved the relics. Something I will never get to see in person in it's original form now. Hopefully enough of it remains and can be saved.
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Lead melts at 621 degrees F. And it will be salvageable. It was built once, it can be built again. But it will take time. A lot of time.
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Tierney wrote:
Lead melts at 621 degrees F. And it will be salvageable. It was built once, it can be built again. But it will take time. A lot of time.
True, but it will never be the same. Sure there are plenty of heritage architects and artists that work with stained glass etc out there but the will not have the same moment in history nor the same skills in working the materials as the architects and artists of the time. Everything is a product of its environment and place in history . I just hope whatever is done with what is left plays true homage to the beauty that has been lost to the ages.
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Harbinger wrote:
Tierney wrote:
Lead melts at 621 degrees F. And it will be salvageable. It was built once, it can be built again. But it will take time. A lot of time.
True, but it will never be the same. Sure there are plenty of heritage architects and artists that work with stained glass etc out there but the will not have the same moment in history nor the same skills in working the materials as the architects and artists of the time. Everything is a product of its environment and place in history . I just hope whatever is done with what is left plays true homage to the beauty that has been lost to the ages.
It will not be rebuilt in my lifetime unfortunately. A decade ago we stayed across the river. I walked around the outside slowly one morning but sadly, never went in.

Miguel
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Just read (www.nbcnews.com) that the destruction is not complete, and Macron has vowed to rebuild. Obviously massive damage, but still, enough salvaged to rebuild.
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My kids grew up in France. We spent every weekend in Paris and usually stopped at Shakespeare and Co. for their weekly book to read (no English libraries in rural France for some strange reason). We literally walked by Notre Dame every week for years and both of my girls were in tears. For them, it was like watching your home on fire.
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Happily, most of the stone vaulted ceilings survived.
The timber roof is completely gone.

Onlookers formed human chains to carry out many of the priceless artworks inside and these have been moved to safe storage.
Macron has announced that a national subscription fund will be launched to help pay for the restoration.

The restoration will require many skilled craftsmen and I foresee a resurgence of interest in classic stone-worker and woodworker skills from this tragedy.
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Well looking at it this morning, it's salvageable, the money pot is already at 200 million euros.

It's a great shame, and we visit it every year, taking in the local cafes and walking along the river bank.

Things will be lost for ever, but think about all the church's and cathedrals across the world that have been damaged and destroyed over the many many centuries. Like those this will rise like a Phoenix, and centuries to come people will reflect on this disaster.
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I might never get across the pond but some of my ancestors came from there, and other places in Europe. I am blessed and I donated a little bit to Friends of Notre-Dame Foundation, which is legitimate and has been helping with costs there for a long time. Works for me, it will rebuild and I will know my few pennies are a part of that.
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maggiegirl wrote:
I might never get across the pond but some of my ancestors came from there, and other places in Europe. I am blessed and I donated a little bit to Friends of Notre-Dame Foundation, which is legitimate and has been helping with costs there for a long time. Works for me, it will rebuild and I will know my few pennies are a part of that.
As I've heard it said, "The church is not the building." I was heartened to see photos of the interior, which remained surprisingly intact. Those large stone archways held up, despite the inferno of ancient timbers and metal which fell onto them. I hope renovations take place quickly, and safely!
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faire son deuil à notre dame
When I heard of this, I was gutted. Having been to Notre Dame twice in my travels, I know what has been lost. Some of the massive timbers are gone and can never be replaced as trees of that size are not available anymore.

I only heard of this disaster late last night.

Yesterday some novice driving a crane to a construction site, knocked down a 4 k volt tower and my whole town was without power for 12 hours. As a result I only got the full details at 10:00 P.M. last night.
A sad day for France.
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Just to lighten the mood a little, when I saw Notre Dame de Paris burning, I must admit I thought of this line from Steve Martin's "LA Story" as I realized I was from California:

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biffnix wrote:
maggiegirl wrote:
I might never get across the pond but some of my ancestors came from there, and other places in Europe. I am blessed and I donated a little bit to Friends of Notre-Dame Foundation, which is legitimate and has been helping with costs there for a long time. Works for me, it will rebuild and I will know my few pennies are a part of that.
As I've heard it said, "The church is not the building." I was heartened to see photos of the interior, which remained surprisingly intact. Those large stone archways held up, despite the inferno of ancient timbers and metal which fell onto them. I hope renovations take place quickly, and safely!
It took a century to build, will take longer to rebuild.
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Re: faire son deuil à notre dame
EN82pg wrote:
When I heard of this, I was gutted. Having been to Notre Dame twice in my travels, I know what has been lost. Some of the massive timbers are gone and can never be replaced as trees of that size are not available anymore.

I only heard of this disaster late last night.

There are still uncut forests in Northern Ca that have trees big enough. Could do some very select cutting and the US could provide the timbers.
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Last night, in honor of the fire we decided to watch the Hunchback of Notre Dam disney animated movie. At one point in the movie they pan up to the circular stained glass window. I sigh out loud. My son asked why. "It is SO beautiful when you are in the cathedral and the light shines through that. I'm worried it will be damaged from the fire"

My son called me while I was riding in and I missed the call. Get to my desk, call him back. "Dad,! The stained glass window was saved!!! They just showed it on the news." Thank you son, made me happy today.
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Sacto Monkeyboy wrote:
Last night, in honor of the fire we decided to watch the Hunchback of Notre Dam disney animated movie. At one point in the movie they pan up to the circular stained glass window. I sigh out loud. My son asked why. "It is SO beautiful when you are in the cathedral and the light shines through that. I'm worried it will be damaged from the fire"

My son called me while I was riding in and I missed the call. Get to my desk, call him back. "Dad,! The stained glass window was saved!!! They just showed it on the news." Thank you son, made me happy today.
There's nothing I've seen in more modern stained glass that rivals medieval glass. Great news that it survived.

Just read that the crown of thorns had been rescued as well. Hats off to the chaplain!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6927345/Fire-chaplain-helped-Bataclan-victims-entered-burning-Notre-Dame-save-Crown-Thorns-relic.html?ico=pushly-notifcation-small
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Irreplaceable but repairable.
This is a product of civilization that will be restored.
Civility in stone...
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Those stained glass windows are safe but when you get sucked into some of that renovation stuff and historical architecture and then that stained glass art... seems many of the artists doing the painting had their own secret recipes for their glass paints, known by heart and NOT written down, even our modern lab equipment cannot truly recreate those paints. A 'close match' to colors is the best we can get. Unsigned, unknown and didn't realize that more than 800 years later we might want to replace a tiny bit of broken glass!
And no, the timbers cannot be replaced, or right now that is what it's looking like, but they are already talking about better, more fire resistance and rebuilding using modern materials which could mean steel beams instead of oak timbers. I dream of riding a Vespa through such historic areas, at a slow speed so I can see it and then going around again to see what I missed the first 10 or so trips...
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I think that the roof will likely NOT be rebuilt n timber - there was around 500 tons of French Oak in that roof.

The damage to the limestone vaulted ceiling is the biggest concern as limestone is affected by heat. We may even see reinforced concrete being used to retain the structural integrity of the vaults.

Recently an Engish Cathedral was repaired using very modern techniques. The crossing with dome overhead was being pushed outwards. The foundations were strengthened by excavating the crypt below and building a reinforced concrete coffer slab to tie them together. Cracks in the dome and cuppola were closed by stainless steel strapping torqued to bring the parts back together.

I foresee similar techniques being used on Notre Dame, possibly steel or even even aluminium roof trusses of an improved structural design. The original timber ones were really rather primitive by modern design standards.
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I'm not at all religious but my heart sank when I saw this, it's such a beautiful building. Fortunately the French president's plan is to restore the building in the next 5 years - perhaps that's a little optimistic but it shows a very positive attitude.
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Not a chance
I would not support cutting down historic trees for the restoration. While engineered beams are not historically accurate, they can be made flame-retardent. It would be foolish to replicate original construction if the result is as prone to burning as the original. The restoration should APPEAR to be faithful to the original but should likely include modern materials and safeguards. If there's any silver lining, it will be the opportunity to investigate the original construction process and materials as the restoration proceeds. Some dismantling will be required to determine the extent of damage and the means of restoration, so archeologists will have an unprecedented look.
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I'm not sure I agree. I'm not sure modern materials and construction techniques are likely to stand as long as this one already has. It was built almost 700 years before aluminium was even discovered! My guess would be that the oak timbers weren't what caught light but the 900 years of accumulated debris that laid beneath them. This would also explain why the fire spread so quickly. Personally, I'd prefer to see a more traditional approach in rebuilding the roof rather than just a modern copy. The wood can be treated with additional fire retardants. It could also spark the planting of new forests - I had 18 English Oaks planted near me last year but they're only saplings at present ... maybe in a 100 years.
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Spare a thought for these two, they bloody love their cathedrals they do
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All of this brings into focus the question of what we'll do with these structures for the next hundred to a thousand years, as Europe becomes increasingly non-religious and the expense for maintaining is passed on to... ...to...?

I'm also not religious but am a lover/student/teacher of European literature/philosophy/history and have a serious European cathedral/chapel addiction (have been to Notre Dame three times in the past few years) and must admit I'm a little worried at how so many are falling into disrepair; such enormous, complex, old structures require enormous funding under normal circumstances.

Keeping them in tact is sort of like looking for black holes -- there's no tangible answer to "why should we?" and yet I think many of us feel we should as knowledge of the past and the universe and the beautiful may still have, maybe, innate value.

Amsterdam's "New Kirk" (as in 15th century "new" ) is a really cool space as it usually hosts enormous, very emotionally/spiritually moving art exhibits that, imho, speak to both secular and religious audiences in a common language (empathy, compassion, care). https://www.nieuwekerk.nl/en/

...and then throughout Spain we run into massive cathedrals that are all boarded up as they're too dangerous to enter.

So I'm finding the response to Notre Dame somewhat heartening.
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
@dooglas avatar
GTS 300ABS, Buddy 125, Buddy Kick 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 13319
Location: Oregon City, OR
UTC quote
Fortunately, much was saved and there is tremendous will and support for restoration of the extensive damage. More significant, this focuses attention on the real relevance of a great historic and cultural landmark such as Notre-Dame de Paris. Concern about what has happened and how to move forward is something which unites us and inspires us. The structure is nearly 900 years old but has continually evolved during its existence. Now that evolution will continue further - and we will be the better for it (IMO).
@frcx94 avatar
UTC

Addicted
2019 MP3 500 HPE Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 826
Location: Paris - France
 
Addicted
@frcx94 avatar
2019 MP3 500 HPE Business
Joined: UTC
Posts: 826
Location: Paris - France
UTC quote
Reading your messages of sympathy do a lot of good!
The partial destruction of this magnificent building is a HUGE loss.
Our attachment to history is great ..... No doubt everything will be done to restore the cathedral the pomp and beauty that was his.

Thank you all
UTC

Addicted
BV 350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 943
Location: Nebraska
 
Addicted
BV 350
Joined: UTC
Posts: 943
Location: Nebraska
UTC quote
Amazing
Once source I read indicated that when the roof was put on 850 years ago, they used 5000 oak trees that were 300-400 years old. I can't imagine there are enough trees like that left in the world to do the job. Even if there are, not sure it would be worthwhile to cut them all down. While purists might object, almost certainly alternatives will be required.
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