my BLUE Bajaj fitting 60mm Crankshaft
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Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:39 am quote
swa45 wrote:
Did you manage to get the T5 air filter fitted with the bigger Pinasco air box top? I seem to remember trying and failing, so went down the route of the Pinasco venturi thingy. It was a couple of years ago and I've messed with all sorts of configurations, so I could have imagined it.
Dang it swa45 we are having the same problem now with the Pinasco air box cover. Did you try this DRT spacer? Half of the description is about the Pinasco air box cover and that the spacer will allow that with T5 filter but may require shock length adjustment.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/spacer+cover+carburettor_25070140
Molto Verboso
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:19 am quote
I didn't try the DRT spacer but managed to get the Pinasco venturi half price as it was missing it's packaging. That's as far as I got when attempting to use the T5 filter. You can of course get the 'G' version of a 24 or 26 carb, which are shorter and therefore accommodate the T5 filter.
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:06 am quote
You are probably right about the G however I chose the tall carb so there would be options on the pilot jet. We'll see if the DRT spacer sorts it out. I'm not familiar with the Pinasco venturi. Are you running the VRX-R 24 without a filter?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/air+intake+system+pinasco+_25530450
Molto Verboso
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:10 am quote
The VRX-R/24 is just a regular 24/24e with a couple of mods to help fuel flow, plus the Pinasco venturi, but Pinasco prices it very high. I made my own mods (to a cheap Spaco 26/26 carb), which entailed drilling out the passage from float chamber to main jet stack and using a drilled Cosa float chamber top with the 5.2mm needle. The venturi replaces the filter, and I have retained the stock bellows to draw fresh, cool and [hopefully] clean air from the frame void. This differs from the Polini venturi system which uses a foam filter in place of the bellows.
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:17 am quote
have some catching up to do on those venturi options. Wanted to keep things simple with the air filter but you have me wondering so what say you, do you think a standard 24e has sufficient flow for my set up or do y think it will require some fuel supply improvements?
Molto Verboso
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:49 am quote
@Hibbert, I made the changes to my carb, not because I needed to but because I didn't see a downside to it, and the cost of the gourmet carbs such as the VRX-R was prohibitive. I had built a 225 motor and felt that I wanted to cover all bases. I think I encountered fuel starvation flat out on the motorway before making the carb changes, but I never really proved it.

Your setup should work well with a stock 24/24e. I don't think you'll have fuel delivery issues, but you should ensure that the passageway from bottom of float chamber to the main stack is not a bottleneck. I imagine that you'll need 125-128 main jet and that hole needs to be at least as big. If you use a venturi, my rule of thumb is you need a main jet 10 points bigger than you would with a stock air filter. I am using a 150 with the Pinasco venturi, so I opened the passageway up to 2.00mm. The size of your inlet will also dictate the carb setup and I see that you have increased the potential volume of charge, both by cutting the crank and by lengthening the inlet, but you are still within the realms of a P200 IMHO, which managed fine with the stock 24/24e.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:11 pm quote
I have a 26/26, VRX vortex and stock bellows on my 200 tourer. Drilled to 2mm. Goes great. Use it frequently, been running 5 years on the 26/26 and expect another 5 at least.
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Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:24 am quote
Don't think we are going to meet the goal of riding the Bajaj this summer but here in Southern California we have pleasant weather most of the time. I am borrowing a page out of the SaFis playbook for the clutch arm. After seeing his addition of the o-ring I had it in my mind to do it. Then I discovered the original Bajaj lever already had 2 o-rings and I was very excited. The clutch cover had some damage to the oil duct and the plunger boss and needed to be replaced.

Got a used Piaggio clutch cover at the scooter speed swap meet but the Bajaj double o-ring lever could not rotate freely and was binding somewhere. When the actuating bell was added this limited travel more when the original Piaggio lever works perfect. So I took the Piaggio lever to the machinist.

Then we thought we solved the 6 week clutch cover delay and now the holes don't line up. The dremel helps open up the ear holes just enough for mounting.

The exhaust has returned from ceramic coating.

Did a final squish test with the 1.0mm base gasket and 0.5mm head gasket. Used 1.65mm solder and smashed it down to 0.70 on the exhaust tip of solder, the others seemed the same if not more. At 1.0mm in the solder increases to 1.0mm. Total length of compression is 5mm then back to 1.65mm.

Tried a 0.8mm head gasket. I could feel the interference while rotating but for some reason this did not compress the solder? Rotated over several times going fast going s-l-o-w. Confused I tested again with the 0.5mm head gasket and had same result as test 1. So I bolted up with the 0.5mm head gasket. I need a blessing on this.

Engine is back in the chassis. It feels a little strange and lonesome with the engine out of the cave. It is very close now. The compression is insane something may go bad if it doesn't ease up. Like both hands required on the headset to stable the bike for the torture going through the kick pedal.

Just waiting on a few items rear hub, flywheel cover, carb top spacer, we have a SIP XL fuel tank coming but it may get added later on after a paint job the one that came with it has a rusted roof.

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the line in the duct is assembly oil draining out

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Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:25 pm quote
Started ready because I thought hey this will be like my old Bajaj, no.. no its not at all..! Top notch and amazing work. Been a blast to follow along so thank you for sharing.

What is the sealant you have on the head/cylinder mating surface?
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Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:45 pm quote
0.7mm is a little tight. I would run it but that's me.

Don't like the copper stuff anywhere near aluminuim, as it does exactly the opposite to what you think it does. It can actually cause corrosion.
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Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:01 pm quote
Awe shucks what is the appropriate material for aluminum? I used Yamabond 4 on the base is this acceptable?
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Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:48 am quote
still stuck on the head gasket I used Permatex Ultra Copper High Temp quick internet search cannot find compatibility issue with aluminum and says there is no copper in the product. Is it the RTV that should be avoided? Checked with scooter shop they are using an aerosol copper high temp. For the exhaust they use a high temp red Locktite RTV. May I use the Permatex ultra copper on the exhaust?
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Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:29 pm quote
Hibbert - Permatex of various formulations is certainly used on lots of aluminum products.

Since none in the know responded yet, thought I would suggest this:

"You can contact the Permatex Tech Center at 1-877-376-2839 and, if you give them more information, they will be able to help you select another product that might work for your application."

On a more general note - most have advised me to go without any sealant. Just curious - why you are opting to use some?
Assume you did/ will do a pressure test to ensure what ever you choose in the end is working - highly, highly (highly) recommend. 5 or 6lbs of air pressure pumped through the spark plug hole using either off the shelf pressure tester - or any number of home made contraptions - my fave of which is this:

Small frame running hot. Different flywheel fan the culprit? (half way down page)

img_5908_20443.jpg
Doesn't come with a nurse. Unfortunately.

Molto Verboso
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Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:42 am quote
Any motorcycle gasket sealer is fine. The head is best with no sealer of any kind. This is how they are designed. The newer ones with O rings really work. Just be sure you do a pressure test after final assembly. If the head is leaking at all it will show up.

Copper causes aluminum to corrode severely in certain circumstances. I won't take the risk with my engines.
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:14 pm quote
Still waiting on a few parts and it's super close. Got new gear cables in ready to go and began connecting some wires.

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wasn't sure what to do so I drilled 2 holes for the neutral wires to come out of the junction box.

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Molto Verboso
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:56 pm quote
What happened in the pressure test?
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Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:35 pm quote
darn it we don't have a tester was going to run it and see. That way we can see what happens with the 0.5mm head gasket. What are symptoms and issues associated with a tight 0.70-0.75 squish?
Molto Verboso
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Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:48 am quote
Do the pressure test! Don't be like me and run it with an air leak for a long time then seize! It makes jetting really hard and you'll think your going crazy cause the jetting will be good one second then bad the next. Leaks can also come from the cylinder base.
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:55 pm quote
Test run only guys Im sorry 😐

Molto Verboso
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:10 am quote
Pressure test or not. It works!

Keeping it from not seizing is now the thing. What is the timing and all the jets? Even 2 minutes on the old jetting will be doing damage. Something guys used to 4 strokes find hard to believe.
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:31 am quote
Plus one for pressure testing!
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:55 am quote
Sounds good and strong on the stand, but agree a pressure test should be a must; it's got to make sense to identify and rectify any issues before the engine's in the frame, and, after the cost of build, a pressure test don't cost a ha'porth o tar!
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:24 pm quote
Still working on doing a pressure test until then here is an update:

The scooter runs good, better than imagined.

I'll start off with the clutch. It's grabby just as Jack warned. It might have loosened up a little but it's going to take some getting used to. On the other hand it seems like I can apply more engine power and slip it more than others. The additional plate feels like it's added depth or length to the operation. After parked for an hour it took a few minutes for it to warm up and feather smoothly. Is this a carbon thing?

Timing is at 16 which is the most I can get at the moment. The stator slots need lengthening. Will get to this soon.

Carburetor: taking Jack's suggestion we set it up with standard T5 jetting and 125 main jet. So far we have made no adjustments not even to the idle speed. Before we bolted the carb on we set the slide so it was just cracked. Have not touched it even after starting.

24/24e
Pilot 55-160
Air corrector 120
Atomiser BE4
Main Jet 125

Air Fuel 2 full turns out

I tested the scooter with the T5 air filter but without air box top and without bellows. It ran fantastic.

I tested again with the cowl on. Not as good.

There was a local rally happening over the weekend and I wanted to take the Bajaj but did not have the air box cover and filter sorted out. So I got a standard P200 air filter and got the Pinasco cover and bellows ON. All seems good maybe a little on the rich side. Will need the experts to diagnose the spark plug reading Things seem real good and should be a tad better with the DRT spacer and T5 air filter back ON. The T5 filter is considerably larger and has the venturi. At least I can hope.

I have clocked 70 miles on the odometer and 15-20 minutes on the stand. Scooter glides along at 45-50 mph in 4th just below where power beckons and for a minute it easily shot up to 65 by accident and that was just the beginning.

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This thing was totally cool like a small frame Ape. It had a 135 kit in it.

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This is the plug morning after 70 miles

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Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:25 pm quote
Hibert - looking good.
Will be interested to see how it all plays out with air box...
One thing - in my experience, using a flash becomes very misleading for plug pics.
Makes them significantly larger.
Best light is just defused day light.
Open garage door but shoot just inside - so plenty of light - but not direct.
Think you will find your pic of same plug will look much more like it does to your eye.
My $.02

P.S. Rally looks like a fun day out.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:39 pm quote
That was a bold move going to a rally for a test ride. All worked out well. Some nice scooters there. The bajaj fits in the scene well too. Is a really nice example.

Plug looks rich, weak and slightly hot but not a disaster. A view down the plug to see inside would confirm this better.

The way it runs better with the box top off means the BE4 is a little too strong. This was probably going to be the case but better to start rich. If you have a BE1 or BE3 this will improve things. Once the atomiser is changed the main jet will need to increase slightly. Keep putting in a bigger main until it splutters and won't rev out, then reduce one or two sizes until it runs clean.
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:56 am quote
Saturday's ride to the rally was probably the 3rd test ride only after about 15 miles around the house and 15 on the stand. I do have a funny video of me trying to start it the first time with the key OFF and gas OFF. Somehow I reversed the fuel tap operation so I had OFF for ON. Tank out figured started but no video of that one.

OK a few questions. Before I invest too much I was thinking we might wait for the T5 air filter so I am focused on that. The P200 filter came with the heart drilled on both the pilot and main. On the T5 only the main is drilled and it's a much smaller hole than the P200 filter. Even the pilot hole on the P200 filter is larger than the hole for the main jet on the T5 filter?! Also the area above the heart at the pilot jet on the T5 filter has a post above it that supports the roof of the filter. Need some direction here do I start and try to tune with the T5 as is or do I port the heart?

To me the plug looks rich on the thread ring it's black and wet. The center though looks nice and brown. The ceramic looks tan.

The scooter felt slightly stifled once the cover and bellows were added. It was most noticeable at 0-3/8 throttle, once it was in the power it was very clean. There is no sputter not even down low not sure it's at a 4 stroking level the engine sounds so different all I can gather is it must be the sound of the the longer inlet.

Another thing that is noticeable is de-acceleration compression it is major. If I'm just cruising along say 40 mph in 4th just 1/8-1/4 throttle and ease off the throttle major compression, it does not like this, it wants more open. If I'm in this situation and under de-cel compression it feels better to clutch and coast down to speed and start again. It's difficult to describe almost like a bucking horse it wants to gallop. I am not viewing this as a negative.

That blue scoot in the last rally shot is a blue Rally and was super nice with it's white stripes. Here is my old Bajaj Chetak!

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Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:27 am quote
That rolling off the throttle and bucking around is not nothing. This is one of two things both serious. Either the mixture screw is too far in or you have an air leak. Try opening the mixture screw to 3 whole turns and see what happens.

As well as doing the mixture screw test I would up the main jet to find the splutter point and change to BE1 (or BE3) at the same time. Running lean damages the cylinder very quickly and a piston can melt quicker than you can say "wow...speed... this is fast" when doing a WOT run to impress your mates.

Air filter type is finer tuning and can be left to the end.
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:26 am quote
A little reality is setting in from Saturday's ride and Sunday's braggadocios post. That and my senses may be a little more keen with a few miles behind. After taking the spark plug out and taking an improper flash photo I took the Chetak out for a short errand. During the ride I noticed a slight change in the tone of engine and idle was slightly off. Things have loosened up.

I had Monday OFF so I started trying to figure out what had changed from the spark plug check. I thought maybe the pilot had clogged. The scooter would not rev out on the stand and was cutting out I thought. Perhaps I was more ambitious to hold the throttle open longer than before. Confused not sure if it was carburetion or timing. First thing I noticed the spark fork was loose but it did not correct. Then I did my 1st carb rebuild and found some rust from the tank in the float. Done problem persists.

I begin with the suggestion by changing the atomiser to BE3 and begin to richen things up. I ran 7 different settings and test runs. After the first 2 test runs with the BE3 things seemed to get worse also the plug was completely black. I only looked at the plug after test 3 to determine I might be going the wrong way but I ran one more test with the BE3 and a small main jet before I went back to the BE4 and began to lean things out as each test run seemed to indicate this was improving. It was becoming possible to me the sensation I was feeling may have been loading it did not feel as much as a sputter until I got things leaner.

I noticed a few back fire's or cough's in the carb when letting off more of this when richer. This was during testing with carb box top OFF. Did not get this with final jetting with top ON.

Timing is still at 16. Scooter still does not rev out on stand it begins to break up at high RPM like it just cuts out. Initial thought was fuel starvation but after the jetting work makes me wonder if it might be rich still? On the tires it's running magically. Photo's with ambient light.

Current Jetting:

120AC BE4 115 main jet
55-160 Pilot
2 full turns out air fuel

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test 1-4

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test 5-8

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BE3 & 130 main

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Final jetting after 10 miles and cooling

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BE4 115 main jet

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2 full turns on air fuel 16BTDC



Last edited by hibbert on Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:43 am quote
Quote:
I noticed a few back fire's or cough's in the carb when letting off more of this when richer. This was during testing with carb box top OFF. Did not get this with final jetting with top ON.
Hibbert - Just one man's $.02.
If you think chasing proper jetting is complicated by air filter and box top changes - it probably pails in comparison to doing it with an air leak.

I'm not saying you have one - but if you do - they will send all sorts of weirdness to your other measures like plug and mixture screw turns.

It doesn't have to be air tight for 3 days - but it better be air tight for 3 minutes or you could have a surprise soft seize or worse.

So much work in to it - and nicely done as well. A pressure test would ensure that all data you get going forward from this point is good, and adjustments made are appropriate.

Signed,
A concerned -CM
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:35 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
I noticed a few back fire's or cough's in the carb when letting off more of this when richer. This was during testing with carb box top OFF. Did not get this with final jetting with top ON.
Hibbert - Just one man's $.02.
If you think chasing proper jetting is complicated by air filter and box top changes - it probably pails in comparison to doing it with an air leak.

I'm not saying you have one - but if you do - they will send all sorts of weirdness to your other measures like plug and mixture screw turns.

It doesn't have to be air tight for 3 days - but it better be air tight for 3 minutes or you could have a surprise soft seize or worse.

So much work in to it - and nicely done as well. A pressure test would ensure that all data you get going forward from this point is good, and adjustments made are appropriate.

Signed,
A concerned -CM
Seconded.. from my own experience with air leak leasing to seize.
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:39 pm quote
I'll do the easy stuff first like put a timing light on the ignition. With the back firing and puttering, its a good place to start.

Glad to see you're up and rolling. Nice project.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:28 pm quote
This is not good. Coughing, backfiring and cutting out are not the usual phrases associated with jetting in an air tight motor. Something could be wrong with the electrics. Timing would have to be way off to have much affect.
The plug is too black for a 115 main jet. Could be burning some gear oil?

Stop riding it for sure. It all gets damaged very quickly when sucking air. A pressure test is the first step. Don't need any fancy gear just a blank for the carb, old inner tube and a pump.
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:00 pm quote
This is a cold start. This is what is happening when I rotate throttle more than 1/2 on the stand. I am opening the throttle 100%. The engine is running after 30 seconds and 24 hour rest. The idle returns perfect.

Molto Verboso
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:16 pm quote
Well it doesn't sound so bad. Starts easy enough but smokes like a train.

Don't go riding it until it revs out better.

First for the easy stuff.

Could be the choke is not shutting off fully. This happens to us all and not embarrassing, much. The cable should be completely slack and the arm loose. The tiniest bit open is fully on.

Check the gear oil level is just where you left it. More or less oil than when you last saw it is bad.

No extra 2 stroke is needed. Should be 2% max.

Would be better to jet in with a 6 or 7 spark plug and not a 9.

Check the timing with a strobe light. Confirm your TDC and 16 degree mark are where they should be.

If all these are good it could just be too rich. Drop the main to 110 and see if it revs out. Don't ride it.
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:58 pm quote
Choke cable is OK
Checked timing again it is 16 with strobe light.
Have not checked gear oil yet.
Had to borrow the 110 main jet from other scooter but no change. Seems like on stand I rev it up twice all good on the third rev it dumps like in video or if I hold open it goes bad.

Turned air fuel to 1 turn out and seems like it's better.

How to determine if pilot is too big?
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:18 pm quote
Pilot jet is probably not ideal but even with no pilot jet it won't flood that bad.

I assume if you pull the choke out and rev it, the not revving is way worse?

You could try a 140AC with a BE3 and see what happens.

I doubt the float needle is leaking or there would be other issues.
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Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:18 am quote
Thanks Jack I don't have a 140 ac but could get one. We have a 160 could test with.

How does the BE3 run different than the BE4? Thought the BE4 was leaner?

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main jet stack from 24G T5 and 24e P2

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5 miles on 110 main jet

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ceramic is turning brown from black

Molto Verboso
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Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:12 am quote
BE3 is weaker than BE4.

Did you check the gear oil? That plug is very black and wet for a 110MJ.

You can try the 160AC on the stand but don't ride it this time. If you run weak and with an air leak the engine will be properly damaged.
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Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:25 am quote
Hibbert - there is a particular area known for issues related to gear box oil sucking.
No idea if this is the case with yours - but here is a vid that addresses.
Also shows a known fix should this be found to be an issue.
What often happens is - the gasket slips off the edge when squeezed due to sealant on the gasket causing it to "float".
- CM
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:51 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
That was a bold move going to a rally for a test ride. All worked out well. Some nice scooters there. The bajaj fits in the scene well too. Is a really nice example.
I always thought that rallies WERE the time and place for a first test ride...i'm mean, there's always multiple SAG wagons there ready to sweep up broken bikes at a moments notice!
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