my BLUE Bajaj fitting 60mm Crankshaft
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Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:36 pm quote
Friday night after installing a new batch of jets and running on the 2nd kick the throttle cable gave out on the 2nd rev thank goodness we are at home and not at a rally.

It seems the scooter responds positively to leaning out the jetting. The 110 main jet though seemed maybe it might be going too lean up high. Increase main jet to 115 decrease atomiser to BE3 now understanding that is leaner, air fuel 2 full turns. This is test 11 still on the P200 drilled air filter.

On the stand changing air fuel 3 - 1 it seems to enjoy 2 turns most.

Sill does not rev out on stand choking makes slightly worse. Ran OK but something(s) not right.

Wanting more jets and cable I head to scooter speed. They do not have the 140 air corrector. That will have to wait but may run a test with 160 to check the impact. I pick up a 45-140 pilot, BE2 atomiser and 112 main jet.

We have the DRT Spacer now and it allows the T5 air filter to fit comfortably under the Pinasco air box cover. Beginning with Test 12 I plan to move forward testing with the T5 air filter which is not fully vented.

For Test 13 main jet will be 112, atomiser BE2, pilot 45-140, air fuel 2 turns and T5 air filter. This did not fully rev out on the stand but is reaching higher rpm. I think I like the 55-160 pilot though the idle speed was lower. I will run this on the tires tomorrow.

Should we be concerned the jetting seems to be going light?

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Molto Verboso
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Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:59 am quote
This is going the wrong way. Its only going to seize up once and you'll be really upset after all the work that got to this point.

45/140 is way way weaker than 55/160. I doubt you need to go down to 45 but that can be done later when you know its safe to do so. The pilot has little effect on this revving out issue.

The BE2 seems like a good idea but it isn't. Way too weak for your porting. Put it in the trash.

Try the AC160 BE3 55/160 and reduce the main jet until it revs out on the stand. Once it feels good on the stand we'll know more.
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Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:13 am quote
Gotta do the pressure check....
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:53 pm quote
We need to press the RESET button on the carburetor tuning. Think we found a problem.

After numerous jetting recipe's and nothing making a sensible (to most) difference decided to get the timing to 18°. Dremeled the slots and set the stator but overshot and now at 20°. The strobe light was cutting out exactly at the point the engine would break up. I went to bed.

Now thinking the cutting out is related to ignition process of elimination maybe one of three, CDI, Stator or flywheel. First the easy CDI replaced problem remains. I borrow the PK flywheel from the P200 and presto it's reving all the way on the stand again. I return to the original jetting 120 AC BE4 125 main jet 55-160 pilot and T5 air filter (new). Scooter feels like a 190 again, a little boggy in the middle. Did a plug chop or cut the engine at about 45 mph looks lean this is just past the boggy part might be in the 1/8-1/4 throttle range 4th gear picture below.

What might cause the issue with the flywheel? Seemed to be working fine for about 100 miles now runs but does not allow engine to rev out?

Installed the SIP XL fuel tank. Made a longer rod for the lever out of 1/4" stock.

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PK flywheel (small cooling fins)

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SIP 1600 g flywheel

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SIP 1600 g flywheel large cooling fins

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SIP XL fuel tank

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Ossessionato
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:14 pm quote
Pickup to flywheel trigger tolerance
Ossessionato
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:18 pm quote
Or dying trigger, or poor magnetism
Ossessionato
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:48 pm quote
btw good find, it took me months to find my squirrely trigger and poor magnetism flywheel because they worked fine below 7000 RPM or so but died at higher RPM on the P200...
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:19 pm quote
Well that's a relief. Well done with finding that. Was all getting too confusing.

Now back to the start. For now don't worry about any other jetting except WOT. Until you get this nearer its not safe to do much else. And it could all change once the main is set nearer.

125MJ may or may not be correct. Need to keep going up on the main jet until it splutters at WOT and won't rev out fully. Once you get WOT splutter drop back two sizes and that's the rough out out done.
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:40 pm quote
Almost too afraid to do a WOT test. Should we start more than 125 main jet?

What can be done with the flywheel? Is it not sinking onto the crank taper to cover the pick-up? Is that why they sometimes shim the stator?
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:39 pm quote
Yes. Starting the other way may be a gentler way to get into it. Put in a 135MJ and work down. You've done enough miles to be at WOT for a couple of seconds to check jetting. Will get really boggy in the middle, just ignore that and focus on WOT.

If not done already, need to get that timing down too. 18 is a good number for now. 16 is ultra safe.

If the 1600 flywheel works on the 200, then will be as you say. Need to pack out the stator. Or maybe move the pickup on the stator closer to the flywheel. It will be one of these. Timing will move between flywheels. Be sure to check the timing with a strobe before any riding, a few degrees could be important as the jetting gets more optimal.

Going to start feeling bigger than a 190 once set up well.
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Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:52 pm quote
spent some time on the fly wheel delima. The 1600 g fly wheel seems to work fine on the P200. Still confused, why does it work there? Also the exposed crank thread is about 3-4mm more with the PK fly wheel compared to the 1600 g.

Got the timing back to 18° and took the Chetak for a spin. Think I'm getting more brave to open the throttle. Noticing some bogging or sputter. Think it might be carburetion this time. Dropped the main to 120 seems cleaner on the stand will take it out tomorrow to see how things go.

Why is 16° safer than 18°?

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Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:57 pm quote
http://www.amrca.com/tech/tuners.pdf
pg 156 talks about ignition timing. in fact the whole chapter about spark plugs, jetting and ignition is really useful stuff.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:39 pm quote
Concerned you are down jetting too early. Remember you are jetting in WOT. And for this to not seize up, the first test is to find out what splutters at WOT. Full throttle runs in 2nd gear are what you should be talking about. I know it will feel rough and boggy mid throttle but can deal with this later. WOT must be done first or you'll just end up pissing into the wind.

At least it runs on the 200. Flywheels and stators which are non standard often require some fettling. It will work out somehow.

16 degrees is safer because it is less powerful than 18. More than the usual amount of un-burnt fuel goes out the exhaust. Economy is worse and with less power. Like a lose lose situation but safe while roughing out the jetting. The EGT can actually go up but the detonation risk comes down.
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Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:41 am quote
Quote:
Why is 16° safer than 18°?
The more advanced the timing the greater the risk of pre-ignition at higher RPM. With pre-ignition, the ignition of the charge happens too far ahead of the plug firing. At lower RPM the timing needs to be a few degrees advanced because the engine is spinning slower, but at higher RPM, too advanced timing can wear a hole in the piston.
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Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:12 am quote
Thanks guys so on the pick up to flywheel tolerance I'm guessing there are two critical points the depth or reach into the flywheel and the distance between the two. How do you check the distance or set the clearance between the flywheel and pickup? We are using a Piaggio branded stator plate SIP 1600 g flywheel on a Mazzuccheli crankshaft in a Bajaj engine casing nice combo.

Yesterday during my test run was not able to rev out any of the gears. It will rev to a certain point and begin to sputter it wlll not rev higher and clean up. Think most of the ignition noise is gone did not have surging, coughing or backfire as before just sputter. Was not clear I could test WOT in 2nd but will give that a try this afternoon could save a lot of time.
Molto Verboso
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Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:14 pm quote
Sounds like you're still safe. Do the runs in 2nd and drop the main until it revs out clean. WOT is just a position of the throttle. Each position is using a different combination of jets. WOT must be done or it messes up all the other adjustments.

As that flywheel runs on the 200, it is probably the crank taper in the Chetak. If you pack the stator laminates off the base it will run. Probably only needs 1 washer on each.

Socalguy. imho Pre-ignition is not detonation. Pre-ignition is firing before the spark. Detonation is uncontrolled burning in the squish after the spark.
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Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:07 am quote
I did a good test run today with the 120 main jet. It seems really good may still be a tad rich. It revs up great on the stand and as high as a normal person would rev it but if held at WOT it will break up eventually. Same with first second and third gear. Can't believe how much more it's come to life now. I cut the engine at 48 mph in 4th but got busy checking the steering tube nuts since it was making a knocking noise. Found several ball bearings missing so instead spent the rest of the afternoon making a quick trip to the scooter shop then removing the old bearings and installing twenty eight new ones. That job was a messy pain but it should feel much better.

Is it OK to run it around a bit on this jetting or could the low end still be weak?
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Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:44 pm quote
Replacing the upper loose fork tube bearings is a pain in the neck! Took 4 hours.

Took a picture of the cold plug this morning with 120 main jet.

Put in 118 main jet. Seems to be good revs higher but at the end seems to break up. The break up occurs probably beyond typical shifting RPM. The behavior is similar to the ignition trouble but no backfire but maybe I am confused or paranoid something may still be going on with ignition. A few times I held it open past break up and it finally did begin to fire up again. The pick up on the stand is more responsive and higher reving.

The idle tempo seems a tad high. Have not adjusted mixture yet it's still at 2 turns. I felt I had adjusted idle speed as slow as it would go on it's own with the 125 main it liked 2 turns best.

The clutch cable tension has been playing a game with me or maybe not so decided I better take a look under the cover. Drained the gearbox oil first time, dirtiest oil I've ever seen. On the other hand it was oil and just oil and some grease so that is good. It was due for a change. Clutch looks as good as I can tell and seems tight on the crank. Was checking for space that might let crank drift but looks good. Please let me know if you see something bad.

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knocking noise turned out to be a few missing ball bearings

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cold plug on 120 main jet

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clutch inspection

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plug on 118 main jet normal shut down



Last edited by hibbert on Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:41 am; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
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Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:03 pm quote
If the 118 feels better than the 120 it probably is. I would leave it there for a while and move the focus to the pilot jet. The breaking up at the ~8000 rpm point, possibly has more to do with the limits of the air filter than the jetting.

To decide if the pilot jet is the right size two things need to be known.
The first is how many whole turns out is the mixture screw, when it is set to the least amount of turns that will pick up rpm from tickover without bogging and feels ok.
The second thing is what happens at 1/4 throttle. How does it feel at 1/4 (or slightly under 1/4 but not more)? Will 1/4 rev out to max rpm when held? Closing the throttle to 1/4 from cruising speed (near flat out for most of us) often tells the whole story. You're making a rich or lean decision; nowhere near as easy as it seems.

That 9 plug will look dark when correct. You would get better results with a 6 or 7 plug. If a 9 plug looks the correct colour.....panic!

Since being on here I have magnetic drain plugs on all my scooters. They should be stock.
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Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:24 pm quote
Took the Chetak for a stroll today. Oh my gosh it is incredible. Before departure I adjusted the air fuel mixture to 2.25 turns out. Like to make small adjustments and ride them for a day to get a feel for what is going on.

It seems like this made an improvement. Did not feel any breakup seemed to rev up fine and it ran so good never felt the need to push it harder than just normal riding. Normal riding is 40 mph at 4th gear barely cracking the throttle. Just past 1/8 into 1/4 scooter is going 50 mph. Seems to run perfect all the way through. The sound the engine produces is not like any other I've heard before think it might have something to do with the longer duration and air box and all the tuning. Idle sounds fine but not exactly sure yet seems to be at a faster tempo than my GL.

It maintains speed. The scooter will run at any speed desired and cruise along, the engine does not need to be pushed along or be in a range of power other than what I want it to be. If I choose to open it up it goes without hesitation and has another different insane sound.

In the last 2 miles of the trip I did a few WOT tests 2nd would break up at the end, 3rd got dirty but kept firing 4th got so fast almost thought had clutch slip. Need more testing. Not sure if these descriptors are the correct terms for what I am sensing.

Dang speedo cable broke and like some of the other bajaj nuances it may require the Hardy Boy's to solve the mystery. Cable is 1098mm long 2.65mm at the speedo and 1.92mm at the drive gear. Not seeing it on SIP? Maybe the drive gear needs a change to fit a cable?

Need the speedo working again it's my only instrumentation to understand what is going on sort of plus I like clocking the miles.

Here is the plug check after a 30 mile stroll into Downtown Los Angeles. Think it's looking better.

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Molto Verboso
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Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:41 pm quote
Looks great and sounds like its going great. What could possibly go wrong?

Glad you are liking the performance. The clutch could be slipping in 4th. That's when it notices for the first time. If you had a rev counter you would know for sure. If the clutch is slipping the oil goes black and stinks.

I think you are still running rich at the top and weak at the bottom. Drop the main jet one more size to fix the top. This will make the bottom even weaker. As you say the tickover is not so strong and at 2.25 turns on a 55/160 and still not good it needs to be bigger. 52/140 or 50/120 are the two next steps. I would just go straight to 50/120 and see how it goes.
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Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:23 pm quote
Seems like things are improving but there is some work to be done yet.

Want to get the 1600 g flywheel working the fan looks better. Waiting on a stator spacer.

Picked up the 140 AC and ordered the next rich pilot jet in anticipation. Won't get the pilot jet for a week so was thinking of running a few test before it arrives. Would a test with the 140 AC or possibly going back to the vented P2 filter keeping the 118 main be worth a try? Just thinking how to lighten this up before dropping the main.

Took an approximate 18 mile round trip to see if a speedo cable could be made. Possible but need to look into a 2.7 drive gear. Before departure turned air fuel to 2.5 turns. Seems to like it. Idle dropped slightly. Perhaps I was too eager before to allow engine to warm into the setting. Can detect slight idle speed variation after a hard run vs. casual riding. Notice less break up at the end of 2nd and maybe 1st is reving higher now and beginning to break a little if I stretch it out. Took 4th up to speed not feeling clutch slip today. It's still not right yet 3/4 and beyond but seems to be getting better all around. Don't think I am reaching RPM yet in 4th where break up occurs in lower gears. Feels like more power down low with 2.5 turns and the higher RPM is responding to that. It is very good 0-3/4 then depending on gear not sure what exactly is happening. Afraid to stretch 4th until things are copacetic 1st through 3rd.

Still learning how to use the clutch. It's grabby in 1st I'm driving it like a grandma not applying much power until clutch is let out in 1st then 2-4th works perfect.

Do carbon plates or cork or both turn oil black? If the clutch begins to slip when max power arrives what is the solution?

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another shot from Sunday's Stroll

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2.5 turns on the air fuel color is showing on rim now

Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:21 pm quote
You do need the bigger pilot. 50/120 is a good place to be. You're right the plug colour is starting to get better but still a way to go.

Although , the 140AC is not the way to go. You will need a different atomiser as the BE4 doesn't work with that. More holes is more risk. The main jet on the current set up can go down a long way yet but the pilot has to get bigger as the main gets smaller.

Keep going down on the main jet until 2 gear revs out clean. Try not to stay under 1/4 throttle for long periods, until the pilot jet is bigger.
What pilot jets you have available? Might be able to make a temporary one.

Clutch might still be wearing in. Its the oil that gets burnt. Stronger springs or better plates is the only way. On a 7 spring, that's going to get hard to pull and even more grabby. This is why we all use Cosa ones now.

The mixture screw only works below 1/8 throttle. Any difference above that is just the weather.
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Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:03 pm quote
One step forward another back still moving in a positive direction I think

Picked up a 52/140 pilot jet and 116 main jet. Big improvement. Much more cleaner power down low and smooth all the way but maybe too good plug looks like 116 might be a little lite. The richer pilot seems to improve the idle there is more consistent boom-boom-boom and less hunting. The power on the throttle pick up has increased. Still a different tempo but good. I sealed up a little better with the Pinasco supplied idle speed rubber that is supposed to seal the idle speed screw against the lid. I had to cut it a few times to get the correct length. Have not installed the air-fuel box seal yet until that is final. Have a 55/120 pilot arriving next week.

Tried the 2mm stator spacer with the 1600 g flywheel and still no go dang it. Then broke out an old crusty original P200 flywheel and brushed it off. It was hard to get on because the magnets locked onto the stator going on but it went on. The other flywheels didn't have that magnetism. Seems the P200 flywheel encases the rim around the stator cavity looks like a good way keeping stuff out but think had some interference there. There was something rubbing somewhere. Marked some things with a sharpie inside the flywheel and gave it a go. Runs but something rubbing, not on any sharpie surface so thinking maybe the part that hugs the case ring.

Thinking maybe Gickspeed might be someone that can work on the P200 flywheel and open up the ring cavity and perhaps lighten to a better weight? Any recommendations on target weight?

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crusty P200 standard flywheel with recess for case ring

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just before flywheel is seated over case ring

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52/140 pilot 116 main jet

Molto Verboso
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Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:24 pm quote
I like your notes. If you have Gmail, you could also create a spreadsheet to track your jetting. Use the drive app on phone to make entries while doing changes in the field.

This is what I use cause I know paper records will get lost in the field.

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Molto Verboso
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Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:16 pm quote
Plug still looks rich and hot. Swallowed up the 52/140 and stayed at 2.5 turns. 50/120 is certainly the next jet. When the pilot jet is big enough the mixture screw will be slightly nearer 2 turns out. As the pilot jet increases from weak approaching optimal a tuned scooter just comes alive. You'll know when you have gone too rich. I prefer jetting from lean to rich but it is way more dangerous.

If you were still feeling 118 break up at high rpm and 116 doesn't, then 116 is not too small. Leave it here for now but could possibly go to 114 once the pilot jet is rich enough.

Some stock 200 flywheels are up near 3.0Kg. You don't want one of those. Somewhere between 1.6kg and 1.8kg would be the target.

Edit: Just a thought, if you have a T5 50/100 idle jet, that will be worth a try. Could be too rich as this is a 190 but at least you'll know the upper limit then.
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Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:18 am quote
Hibbert - looks like you are on your way with the jetting.
Re “feels like it’s slipping”. It might be.
Not sure what clutch or what washer behind clutch you are using - but looks like you might be getting some contact with cover.
In particular, the contact close to center would be like riding your clutch - and might be related to the grabiness you are reporting?

See pic below.
Fix is either a spacer for cover, some cover grinding, or slight adjustment to washer thickness behind clutch.
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Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:19 am quote
Second try.
Phone...

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Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:45 pm quote
Thanks Swiss will look into that. I'm more of an analog guy not tech savvy. Prefer incandescent over LED. If I get a new computer and can then save a file may be able to use the program.

Thanks charlieman22 think those scars are from it's previous life. Will keep an eye on the center by the plunger that may be new wear. Should have snapped my photo with the pressure plate off.

Still not sure what is going on with the 1600 g flywheel thinking it may be magnetism it won't hold a wrench...

Took the crusty P200 flywheel to sime66 best friend's buddy Tim the machinist. Had the case rim removed from the back of the flywheel and turned the outside diameter down about 3/8". This only reduced the weight to 2.84 kg. Did some perusing here and found a few photo's of lightening so went back to see Tim and had him remove some material from the face bringing the center down to the fin level and on the back took a milimeter from the mag mass down to the bottom. Tim had concerns going too close to what he assumed were steel posts that hold the mag to the housing. After the second run the flywheel is at 2.66kg still a bit heavy.

Mounted the lightened P200 flywheel runs great. Strobe light ran best of all held steady at all rev ranges.

Noticeably different. Not as quick off the throttle but reaches same top speed. Smoother shifting. Good solid idle. Slower in engine speed reduction but as it should be. There are nuances you can feel with the flywheel some are pros or cons depending on circumstance. Seems to have better inertia. Shifting to 4th at 45 according to the speedometer and crusing along at 50. Took a nice 10 mile round trip achieving 65 on speedometer feels as it should.

A few parts arrived, a new speedo gear and cable. The pinion gear had to be swapped out for a 2.7 cable end. Housing went in like magic and speedometer is functioning again thanks to Nancy Drew.

Rear brake switch came in but need normally open switch and normally closed one is reverse.

Could not get 55/120 pilot jet apparently SIP does not carry it and scootercenter is out of stock. Picked up a 48/100 as an alternative. Will give it a try tomorrow.

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1st run 2.83 kg

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Tim the machinist

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2nd run removed more on outer rim the make internal surface level from mag mass out to fan tip. About 1mm removed from mag mass down to the bottom.

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Removed some material from the face. Tim was conservative did not want to weaken too much.

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mounted no rub timing 18° BTDC

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new cable $10 new gear $8

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The scooters in for service

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Plug after 30 miles cool down still at 52/140 pilot AC 120 BE4 116 2.5 turns air fuel

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Location: California
Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:49 pm quote
Changed the pilot jet to 48-100 and the main jet to 115. Scooter likes it. Idle came down quite a bit. Took a 10 mile test still at 2 1/2 turns on the air fuel. Ran very good felt more comfortable in higher RPM difficult to describe like less revvy, vibration and power has moved up a few MPH. Scooter accelerates to 65 on speedo so easy and made 70 today. Had a little issue when I stretched 3rd but it may have been close to reserve fuel level that may have contributed.

Came home to adjust air fuel down to 2 turns. Scooter seems to like it. This is the plug after the air fuel adjustment.

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Sunday's 75 mile trip to Long Beach, CA Signal Hill Lookout Westside SC

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We are expecting rain tomorrow

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BE4 120 115
48-100 2 turns
T5 Air Filter

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1580
Location: London UK
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:56 am quote
All sounding good now. I susspect 48/100 is a little rich and 50/120 might feel better. Either way out of danger now.

9 plug is harder to read, as it's too cold for your engine but looks ok.

Would be surprised if this can't make 70mph (GPS) any time you like.

If you make a sound recoding of general riding around any issues will be clear.
Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 656
Location: California
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:56 pm quote
Think we made an error in the pilot order which is why we ended up with the 48-100.

Help us with the plug thought the manufactures recommend the cooler 9 for aluminum and 8 for iron.

What are the down sides using the 9 plug? Where does this show on the plug reading? Does this impact sustained operating temperature?
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