my BLUE Bajaj fitting 60mm Crankshaft
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Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: california
Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:53 pm quote
Hibbert - regarding the pause you get at hand off between the idle and main jets.

suggest:
Take off the carb top & look down it with the bike running on the stand.
Open less than 1/3 throttle - as you get close to 1/3 - it will do the pause.
What I believe you will see is a big droplet come out of the main jet feed tube that pokes in to the Venturi.
You can repeat this a couple times - I think you will get a visual of what's going on.
If your main jet is right at WOT - confirmed with plug chop - but it is choking out the hand off spot - perhaps the issue is your atomizer?
Meaning - you need to be either delay the moment that your main jet comes in to action by restricting its flow a hair - or when it does start to flow - it needs to flow less at that first point it comes online.

That's my theory anyway.
Right till everybody tells me why Im wrong.
Is there a BE something that would lean you out a little at that point to smooth that transition?
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:03 am quote
Don't know about the atomiser yet have a few more pilots to check.

Plug read and air fuel liking 2 turns max best says 55-160 is too rich. I like the 55-160.

50-160 is too lean so it's got to be something in-between. SIP inventories for the 50-140 are low at the moment.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:00 am quote
What pilot jets do you have? Might be able to convert something.

The top most clue for being close to getting the pilot smooth, is having a jet that runs best at at over 2.5 turns on the mixture screw.
55/160 is at 2 turns, so the 55 part needs to be smaller. However if the 55/160 gives good progression the curve is in the zone.
50/160 is lean on progression but how many turns on the mixture?
Just a case of juggling the numbers but be prepared to need a jet they don't make but can be modified from something you have already.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1116
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:09 am quote
I got tired of trying to find that one jet. I bought a few 40/160 pilot jets and a few sets of micro drill bits. The 40/160 was lean as expected, I kept going up in drill bit sizes until I had what I wanted. Went up the next size which was to much, drilled a spare jet to just the right size again. I did scratch out the 40 and put the size on the jet for next time.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:06 am quote
ScooterSpeed had the 50-140 pilot jet in stock. Have to give ScooterSpeed mucho credit if not for them this scooter project would not have been realized.

Seems like 50-140 could be it. Can't feel anything wrong with it, it feels/sounds as good as the 55-160 with better pick up. Did a 30 mile ride average cruise speed was down to 40, slower and just as happy going that speed, moving up to 55 was quick, robust and endless fun. Seems like the hand-off to main jet occurs earlier and almost undetectable. No stutter, pause or cough whether accelerating or decelerating.

On the stand air fuel stabilizes at 2 turns. More slows it down less increases.

I'm liking the color on the plug.

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24mm carb
50-140 pilot jet 2 turns out air fuel mix
Jack Stack 120 air corrector - BE3 atomiser - 120 main jet

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:31 pm quote
Very nearly ready to "stick a fork in it" but I have a feeling the main jet is slightly too big. Have you tried a size smaller?
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:46 am quote
Dropped a 118 main jet IN and went for a ride. Works but a little hesitation at opening, not a huge gap. Adjusting air fuel out to 2-1/2 helped but didn't resolve completely.

Plug read looks worse with air fuel at 2-1/2 compared to 2 on the 118MJ.

Back into a 120MJ and air fuel at 2 turns to confirm it solves the hesitation felt with 118MJ. Hesitation not happening on 120MJ.

Was not expecting that. Got a few 60mph sustained runs feels good on both 118 and 120. Think I like the 120MJ better.

BA14CA59-4748-442A-AF4A-036F97146A28.jpeg
50-140 pilot jet 2 turns out air fuel mix
Jack Stack 120 air corrector - BE3 atomiser - 118 main jet

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50-140 pilot jet 2 turns out air fuel mix
Jack Stack 120 air corrector - BE3 atomiser - 118 main jet

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Delicious Doughnuts

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50-140 pilot jet 2-1/2 turns out air fuel mix
Jack Stack 120 air corrector - BE3 atomiser - 118 main jet

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50-140 pilot jet 2-1/2 turns out air fuel mix
Jack Stack 120 air corrector - BE3 atomiser - 118 main jet

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:50 am quote
Seems like the reason you're having similar problems to CM and the other CM is because you are. Still looks rich.
You have a BE5? With one of these the main jet can get smaller.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:45 am quote
Don't have a BE5 do you think a BE1 might do it?

While testing on the 118MJ felt comfortable taking it up to 60 and holding it for a while. Throttle is about 3/8 open too frightened to see what WOT might do.

Last edited by hibbert on Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1116
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:52 am quote
hibbert wrote:
Don't have a BE5 do you think a BE1 might do it?

While testing on the 118MJ felt comfortable taking it up to 60 and holding it for a while. Throttle is about 3/8 maybe frightened to see what WOT might do.
Looking at pictures, are the holes in the BE1 middle smaller than BE3 but bigger then BE1?
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:57 am quote
seems maybe next step from BE3 before BE5.

vivo Atomiser jet.jpg

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1116
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:04 am quote
hibbert wrote:
seems maybe next step from BE3 before BE5.
This is the first time I've really examined atomizers. I have an E3 from my Stella. It has two holes instead of 4 in the middle section. Looks like that the difference between a BE3 and BE1.
Enthusiast
2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 14 Jun 2020
Posts: 62
Location: MA
Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:22 am quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
hibbert wrote:
seems maybe next step from BE3 before BE5.
This is the first time I've really examined atomizers. I have an E3 from my Stella. It has two holes instead of 4 in the middle section. Looks like that the difference between a BE3 and BE1.
Based on my research and limited experience the E3 is more or less interchangeable with the BE5. The E3 has two larger holes in the middle range where the BE5 has four smaller holes. The net effect is about the same. The BE5 is what most sources recommend for use with the 140 air tube. It would be interesting to know exactly why LML went with the E3 instead.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:52 pm quote
Reserve fuel level seems to be functioning now after inspection and blow out. Switchover is successful and sucks down to the nut.

BE5 atomiser jet pending:

Pleased with how well a 55-160 pilot runs although do not dispute it might be too rich.

The 50-140 pilot jet felt good but there was an almost undetectable weakness present. Noticeable while gently revving engine at a stop light on the 3rd rev it felt weak as if cold. That was the only indication otherwise it felt great and revved past that so quickly never detected a 'handoff'.

Took a 52-140 pilot jet and made a 52-150~. Used a 1.5mm drill bit and worked it through the upper air duct section noticing a drill would fit into the 1st hole of the jet so that's where I stopped. Scooter seems to like it. Feels like more power down low pulling up to 55mph easier and feels more robust like with the 55-160.

Pleased with jetting put in a fresh BR8HS and went for a 60 mile ride. Scooter ran better than ever. Took the Arroyo Secco back mostly at 50mph comfortably a few pulls up to 65 and held and 70 twice to see if it could. Plug read not sure looks messy.

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24/24e T5 air Filter Pinasco Air Box
52-150 Pilot custom 2 turn air fuel
120AC - BE3 - 120MJ

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24/24e T5 air Filter Pinasco Air Box
52-150 Pilot custom 2 turn air fuel
120AC - BE3 - 120MJ

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: california
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:18 pm quote
Hey - just saw this.
That plug appears to have detonation aluminum all over it.
Not good.
Suspect your main is well week.
Assuming you don't have some crazy advance going with your timing, or sprung an air leak - you gotta be careful.
Dots of stuff on spark plug means detonation.

Lemme channel Jack for a moment here.
Go back to find how big a main you need to make it refuse to rev out.
Then come down a couple and you should be there.
That plug looks dangerously weak.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:15 am quote
Does look like the high speed runs have shaken out some issues. Wouldn't like to see that plug in mine. Back to the start. 135 main jet and work down. Detonating and not seizing would be a few jets under maybe 125 or 128 will be the final jet with the BE3.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:29 am quote
So BE5 then?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:02 am quote
Stick with the BE3 until you know what jet floods out. Something like 132 I expect.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:50 am quote
based on my notes sputter with 135MJ.

Seems in June I went down on the main jet and began increasing pilot. Went from a 130MJ to 128MJ to keep up with Charlie's Unicorn in Malibu canyon. Notes show I liked 55-160 pilot and 125MJ.

Now experimenting with 52-150 pilot. Should I try to make it closer to 160?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:47 am quote
I would go back to AC120 BE3 128MJ 52/140 and take it from there. This is 3 main jets down from splutter so about as lean as you want to go.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:19 pm quote
Took scooter for a ride with 125MJ seems dirty again in the mid range not a full-on sputter but near, once past good.

Picked up a few more drills a 1.50, 1.60 and 1.62mm. Opened up the 52-140 pilot again with the new 1.60mm drill. The one I had used from my set was 1.47 it is now a true 160 compared to other 160 pilots on hand.

Mid range gurgle seems to be cleared with 160 drill on 52-140 & 128MJ.

Checking notes again had not re-evaluated sputter point after re-moving 2mm float spacer. Went back to 135MJ confirms sputter. Into 130MJ still dirty in the mid range. Down to 128MJ & 52-160 custom pilot for now. Not as clean as prior.

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SIP T5 nylon air filter

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T5 venturi

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HEART - hole above main jet
NO hole above pilot jet

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120AC BE3 128MJ
52-160 pilot 2 turns air fuel

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120AC BE3 128MJ
52-160 pilot 2 turns air fuel

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:38 pm quote
128 looking a lot better. Wouldn't go any smaller. Are you positive the problem at 1/3 is rich? If the 1/3 splutter wasn't there on a smaller main jet it's fairly safe to assume it is rich.
Where does the 52/160 put the mixture screw?
How is half throttle cruising?
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:26 pm quote
It's certainly a rich symptom at 1/3 it's darn near 4-stroking probably is if I don't throttle past. Maybe the reason I got down to 120MJ on the 55-160 pilot.

52-160 might be closer the plug rim looks glossy now and no carbon build up, ceramic is less bumpy. Have the specked plug on my desk for the moment put previous plug back in.

In my observation does not seem to matter what size pilot jet, the air fuel stabilizes at 2 turns and more does not seem to have much impact. Did notice weakness with smaller main jets.

On the current jetting 52-160 2-turns A/F 120AC-BE3-128MJ in 4th gear flat level ground at 1/2 throttle scooter increases to 55-60 mph.

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120AC BE3 128MJ
52-160 pilot 2 turns air fuel

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120AC BE3 128MJ
52-160 pilot 2 turns air fuel

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:42 am quote
The Chetak is running very good maybe a tad rich down low on the custom 52-160 pilot jet. Not as clean in the 30-40mph range in 4th and really wants to be past 45 to be into clean power. On the other hand might be good when shutting down after WOT. Totally acceptable to me.

Put in a BR7HS to see. First thing I noticed is it's taking more time to pick up color. Maybe burning better? Might have slight improvement in the low range. Plug pictured has 90 miles.

Replaced steering bearings with BGM tapered set. While headset was off with access new teflon lined cable housings and repaired wire loom. Used heat shrink butt splice which solders the wires they worked great! Found short in front brake 12vdc wiring. Front brake switch still inoperable need new one.

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heat shrink butt splice with solder

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modified dust shield to clear bearing

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52-160 pilot
2 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE3 128MJ
BR7HS spark plug

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52-160 pilot
2 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE3 128MJ
BR7HS spark plug

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:38 pm quote
Definitely going for a set of those bearings next time. Easy enough to fit?

What happens when you try a slightly smaller pilot like 48/160? Have to get up to 2.5 turns before it smooths out on progression.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:11 pm quote
Thanks Jack the bearings went in easy enough just takes time. Would excavate more of the frame and headset for better cable clearance next time. Did some could have done more.

Have a 50-140 and 48-140 to test again. Have a suspicion they may work better as 160's we'll see. Wonder if the lack of hole in filter above the pilot prefers the 160?
Hooked
Vespa PX200
Joined: 27 Jun 2010
Posts: 403
Location: Belgrade
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:13 am quote
Been following / lurking on this thread for a while now, just want to poke my head up for a sec as long as you're talking about the T5 filter as part of your jetting odyssey. I know it's a tuning PITA as you have to remove the idle screw every time you change a jet. Do the benefits outweigh that? How much more punch does it offer overall? Also, to your point about the missing hole above the idle jet in that T5 filter - would it not make sense to drill that out, as we all do with the regular air filter? That might take the edge off the richness you describe at 1/3 throttle.

Or is that T5 filter a totally different beast?
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:52 am quote
Good points JimVan thanks for raising them.

On the idle screw initially I thought the same and I had modified the air filter so I would not have to remove the idle screw. Doing that disrupts the Venturi slightly as you can see in the photo's above.

I am using a Pinasco air box cover which comes with a rubber sleeve that slides onto the throttle screw that seals the lid. Additionally I had trouble with the spring and idle screw using the T5 filter can't remember the exact detail but I had to eliminate the spring. However the rubber sleeve for the Pinasco lid provides appropriate tension to the idle screw and spring is not needed. Therefore removing the idle screw has become less troublesome the spring always seemed to cause me to potentially cross thread. I've got it down to a science now 3 1/2 turns is the setting every time. I would not modify a filter again. I like the stock like arrangement.

I am of the thought that not having a filter is better or having the least amount of restriction. Not sure if the T5 air filter, the DRT spacer and larger Pinasco air box provided any performance in terms of speed. I think they allow the engine to breath easier and perform better. I am so happy with the new SIP nylon filter it seems as though there is no filter or restriction at all. The filter is essentially clean as a whistle except around the carb opening.

The other thing I appreciate about this arrangement is the sound. Yes it sorta has a plastic sound which I want to compare to an exotic MX bike.

Drilling the hole above the pilot might be challenging, there is a support post just above. I am open to new discovery.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:18 pm quote
If the 48/140 was drilled out to 160, that should be the jet you need.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:25 pm quote
48-160 works 48-165 slightly cleaner.

The pilot change revealed sputter at 3/4-WOT. If I ran it like I stole it break up in 2nd-4th past 1/2 throttle. Wasn't sure if it was a rich symptom almost felt like ignition.

Changed main jet from 128 to 125. Break up is gone and runs better.

2nd gear WOT plug chop on 125MJ

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48-165 pilot
2 1/4 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE3 125MJ
BR7HS spark plug

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48-165 pilot
2 1/4 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE3 125MJ
BR7HS spark plug

Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:13 pm quote
The upper head bearing with the integrated nut was not as tight as suggested in the description. Had to re-tension twice, on the second effort added a set screw.

The 48-165 pilot and 125MJ seem to be good. Had some surging in the 40-50mph 4th gear less than 1/4 throttle range. Adjusted air fuel mixture out from 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 and seems better.

Took the Chetak up the mountain above 5,000 feet above sea level. Incredible Chetak tractor-ed up the hill in 4th gear all the way. Only used 3rd gear three or four times coming out of turns that necessitated slower speed for my ability. On the ride down came upon a rider that was going too fast it seems to make the turn and was under the guard rail with a broken femur. His Harley looked in better condition.

Coming down was easy but do sense a bit of surging when closing throttle from less than 1/4. Think it might be where the hole in the slide cutout is. Slide wants to be past (more open) or closed I am guessing based on throttle position. Tried to keep it open just past this point trying not to pick up more speed.

On the ride up was able to run between 40-50mph. Once I reached 5,000 ft was able to get up to 40 maybe 45 if I pushed but 40 comfortable. I could feel when I went above 1/4 throttle would induce sputter and below better. Thought it might be the cross over point I was able to differentiate which seems to correlate with my throttle markings.

I had wiped the plug clean from the last chop to see how it would pick up color on the rim. Surprisingly it didn't pick up much but it does look good. I'm not seeing anything that suggest the BR7HS is too hot but help me if I am not seeing it.

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M3-050 tap

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set screw

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5,000 above sea level

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broken femur

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48-165 pilot
2 1/2 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE3 125MJ
BR7HS spark plug

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wiped before ride

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48-165 pilot
2 1/2 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE3 125MJ
BR7HS spark plug

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1781
Location: california
Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:53 am quote
Looks like you are on the right track.
In my experience - that surging only occurs when I am too lean at the bottom (idle jet in your case). It can be a fine line between crisp throttle lean, and surging on deceleration too lean.
Bit richer idle may also help smooth the hand off to main.

Plug looks good otherwise from my vantage - at least at this stage.
Looks like a pretty fabulous ride.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:14 am quote
Pretty close. Getting weak symptoms at altitude mean it's lean. Plug looks ok for general use. 7 is ok.
Try a BE5 and adjust main jet down to suit. Keep the pilot at 48/165. Might just have a dip in the curve. If this runs terrible and rich then the pilot is too small on the BE3.

Don't see helicopter rescue every day of the week.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1187
Location: California
Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:30 am quote
wow BE5 is amazing. More power, less vibration, pulling up to sixty lickity split. Low speed also seems improved. No surge on decel.

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2nd gear WOT chop
48-165 pilot
2 1/2 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE5 125MJ
BR7HS spark plug

33A9AACD-42ED-4218-9AD4-B25BD6B94FD5.jpeg
2nd gear WOT chop
48-165 pilot
2 1/2 turn air fuel mix
120AC BE5 125MJ
BR7HS spark plug

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2449
Location: London UK
Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:44 pm quote
Another one so soon? Actually lean but seemed rich. When you get it right it's easy to know. Sounds like there's not much wrong now. 48/165 was probably ok, as was the main but now the 125 is on a BE5 to be the same it has to be a few sizes leaner. All that was the problem was a lean dip in the mid range.

Next is to reduce the main jet until the plug chop looks better. Suspect it will end up at 120. Pilot jet should hopefully still be ok after.

Does it sound quieter now too?
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