First full restoration project.. 1980 P200E
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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:58 pm quote
I will take a closer look at the drum tomorrow and take some sandpaper to it to see if it is really pitted or just rusty. If I buy a new hub, I'm gonna convert it to disc brake.

Is there a benefit to converting a semi-hydraulic conversion kit to fully hydraulic?


If I get the grimeca disc brake conversion kit, I was considering doing the full hydraulic conversion like @thatscooterthing did here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcIZjxueISQ

I just can't find the mounting kit he used which he says he got off someone from the GSF. Anyone know how to get a hold of this mounting kit? or what these loop adjustable screws are called so that I could go buy my own hardware and fabricate my own mounting plates? Image attached of those adjustable screw hinges I'm wondering what they are called.

sean.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:10 pm quote
Nevermind on the need for a mc bracket. @thatscooterthing offered to modify a p200 lower headset with a bracket he had laying around for me for a good price!

Still hoping to salvage the drum hub for now, but it will be good to have a headset modded for a master cylinder ready whenever my budget is there for the full disc system.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:53 am quote
How do you remove the lower cone and dust shield? I just saw a YouTube video a guy took an angle grinder to them but I would rather not use a cutting tool so close to the fork. Can I just use a punch tool and Hammer to bang it down off or is there a specific technique that works best?

IMG_20190729_154927.jpg

Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:18 pm quote
Got a linoleum knife? That's the best tool going to remove the bearing race and dust shield. Best part is you'll be able to use the dust shield over again and no risk of damage to the fork.

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first use a thin paring knife working around the fork to open the gap
tap tap tap w/ your hammer

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now we have a small gap

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now bring in the linoleum knife and tap tap tap all around
the curved blade fits nicely in the gap

IMG_20190712_112744203.jpg
when it's open enough, pry from 2 sides

IMG_20190712_114140712.jpg
all done and the dust shield is still like new

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:13 pm quote
You're a pro v oodoo!

Unfortunately as you can see in my photo, I took one good whack at it with hammer and screw driver and slightly dented the dust cover. Then I thought maybe I should ask advice on a better way to do it than my default smash! So my dust cover will be replaced. I will try your way to get it off and replace those parts in case I warped the race cone as well.

Probably add some heat to help it along.

Also started taking engine apart today. Little work here and there on both fork and engine.

My front hub on second look is not usable. It is really rusted and pitted on the drum. The rear hub is only slightly surface rust in a few spots so I think it's good to reuse. Looks like I will be doing a full hydraulic disc conversion on the front before I get it up and running, seeing as I need to replace that hub!

IMG_20190729_161058.jpg
Rear hub

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Rear hub

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:38 pm quote
I wanted to get a good look at the rear hub to see if I needed to also replace that along with the front hub, so I started tearing it off the engine, which led me to pulling the carb box/oil mixer off and start to split the cases. Still haven't split it cause it was stuck after bolts removed, and I need to go get some screws to fit into the flywheel cover holes so that I can use my case splitting tool to get them apart.

But as I was tearing things off the engine, I discovered something. Despite the engine having very little mileage, I noticed that someone had messed with the rotary valve timing at some point 20-40 years ago in its very short life on the road. I have not approached understanding how to take measurements on rotary valve timing yet, but when I get there, I'm hoping their previous grinding work is usable or close to the timing that works well for my setup. I may need to clean it up a bit seeing as it looks like they just dug it out without really paying any attention to shaping it for flow!

For some reason the thought of someone grinding this thing out 20-40 years ago brought to mind this song/band I have listened to in like 20 yrs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU1CDSP7FRk

I dont know if this is their original music video.. but this sums me up in the garage while tearing the engine apart for the first time today.

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who took the bomp?

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Last edited by swiss1939 on Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:40 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Unfortunately as you can see in my photo, I took one good whack at it with hammer and screw driver and slightly dented the dust cover. Then I thought maybe I should ask advice on a better way to do it than my default smash! So my dust cover will be replaced. I will try your way to get it off and replace those parts in case I warped the race cone as well.

....
The dust cover is easy to straighten once off, it's mild steel. The race cone is hardened steel, you might be able to crack it but you will not warp it. Just clean up and inspect carefully after you remove them.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2795

Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:48 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I will take a closer look at the drum tomorrow and take some sandpaper to it to see if it is really pitted or just rusty. If I buy a new hub, I'm gonna convert it to disc brake.

Is there a benefit to converting a semi-hydraulic conversion kit to fully hydraulic?


If I get the grimeca disc brake conversion kit, I was considering doing the full hydraulic conversion like @thatscooterthing did here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcIZjxueISQ

I just can't find the mounting kit he used which he says he got off someone from the GSF. Anyone know how to get a hold of this mounting kit? or what these loop adjustable screws are called so that I could go buy my own hardware and fabricate my own mounting plates? Image attached of those adjustable screw hinges I'm wondering what they are called.
Full hydro is going to be a cleaner setup. With the semi-hyro, you'll have the master cylinder hanging off the side of your lower fork. It doesn't look bad down there, but having a full hydo makes it look better. A full hyro will also give you a better brake feel too. All that said, i have a semi-hydro on my Allstate 200, and it stops better than all of my other scooters that have a disc on them. It actually rivals my PM Tuning double disc that's on my Lammy. Not sure how that's possible, but i can deal with it.

Also with full hydro, you'll have to source your own hydro hose.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2795

Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:52 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I wanted to get a good look at the rear hub to see if I needed to also replace that along with the front hub, so I started tearing it off the engine, which led me to pulling the carb box/oil mixer off and start to split the cases. Still haven't split it cause it was stuck after bolts removed, and I need to go get some screws to fit into the flywheel cover holes so that I can use my case splitting tool to get them apart.

But as I was tearing things off the engine, I discovered something. Despite the engine having very little mileage, I noticed that someone had messed with the rotary valve timing at some point 20-40 years ago in its very short life on the road. I have not approached understanding how to take measurements on rotary valve timing yet, but when I get there, I'm hoping their previous grinding work is usable or close to the timing that works well for my setup. I may need to clean it up a bit seeing as it looks like they just dug it out without really paying any attention to shaping it for flow!

For some reason the thought of someone grinding this thing out 20-40 years ago brought to mind this song/band I have listened to in like 20 yrs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU1CDSP7FRk

I dont know if this is their original music video.. but this sums me up in the garage while tearing the engine apart for the first time today.
That "grinding" on the inlet looks like the standard stock milling from the factory. They all came that way. I wouldn't worry about it.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:54 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Full hydro is going to be a cleaner setup. With the semi-hyro, you'll have the master cylinder hanging off the side of your lower fork. It doesn't look bad down there, but having a full hydo makes it look better. A full hyro will also give you a better brake feel too. All that said, i have a semi-hydro on my Allstate 200, and it stops better than all of my other scooters that have a disc on them. It actually rivals my PM Tuning double disc that's on my Lammy. Not sure how that's possible, but i can deal with it.

Also with full hydro, you'll have to source your own hydro hose.
I'm definitely going full hydro. Already bought the modified headset and mounting bracket off @thatscooterthing. Just need to source the rest of the stuff when I start working again and have a budget for parts. Broke right now!

Lee @thatscooterthing suggested spiegler hose for the full hydro. I am thinking I'm gonna piece together my own kit from a grimeca disc hub and axle seat for disc hub, but find a different caliper and master cylinder. Maybe find a caliper with slightly larger pads. I know it will cost more to buy individual parts but I will be able to build it exactly the way I want it.

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/brake+drum+grimeca+nt+disc_39031000

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/axle+seating+grimeca+for+disc_39070000
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 1:59 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
The dust cover is easy to straighten once off, it's mild steel. The race cone is hardened steel, you might be able to crack it but you will not warp it. Just clean up and inspect carefully after you remove them.
whodatschrome wrote:
That "grinding" on the inlet looks like the standard stock milling from the factory. They all came that way. I wouldn't worry about it.
Awesome! you guys are great help!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:42 pm quote
First case split! The fun begins.

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:40 pm quote
Related to the full hydraulic conversion. Does anyone know if this piaggio master cylinder has the brake light switch mount in same way as the LML MC? No good pictures of that angle to see if it is there. If not, I may try to find an LML master cylinder so that I can add front brake switch capabilities.

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/brake+master+cylinder+piaggio+_56378800
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:30 am quote
Cruciform and gears
It is very obvious that I need to replace the cruciform and first gear on the drive shaft and fourth gear on the primary. But I am also wondering if the slightly rounded edges of second gear are enough to warrant a replacement or that is how they are formed new?

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First gear inside edge has a swirl gouge on it.

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First gear outside edge inner teeth have been ground down. Replace this gear for sure.

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Second gear inner teeth slightly rounded edges. This is normal and not the start of damage right? I believe these are good to reuse.

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Fourth gear on primary has gouges in the teeth. Gonna have to rebuild this and replace that first gear.

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Cruciform sacrificed to the gods

Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:46 am quote
On to your questions. Yes, Piaggio's brake master cylinder is like LML's. Be careful to order the correct hub for your fork. There are two versions, for the 16mm and the 20mm axles. Considering the gears, read the comments under each photo...

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Brake light switch, connected parallel to the foot brake...

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4th gear, machining marks, totally fine...

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Again, totally fine. The slope sides work as a "ramp" for the cruciform...

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3rg gear, looks fine to me...

img_20190730_101414_12005.jpg
The primary's "tree" is a one piece, no individual gear cogs. The "gouges" are there for the kickstart gear cog to engage only to one side. So, again, totally fine...

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:28 am quote
Wow, ok cool! I only need to replace the cruciform. That saves some money. I do think at minimum I would need to rebuild the christmas tree as the clutch was left off for 20 yrs outside so there is a lot of dirt and rust in the christmas tree bearing. I'll remove all the rust from the christmas tree and put a new bearing in there.

As far as gearing, like I said, I want this to be a strong torque engine with low rpm cruising at 60-65mph. I'm guessing I stick with the standard gearing.

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Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1819
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:38 am quote
Looking good Swiss!

At scootermercato you can buy a rebuild kit for that baby, including bearing, springs, rivets, etc. Get out the wire wheel for the rusty gear - I bet it'll clean up nicely....

And I thought the same thing about the inlet at the rotary pad. Who drilled this thing out after the fact? Turns out that's how they came from the factory. took the dremel to it and cleaned up the drill hole, making the inlet smooth.

Then Jack showed me how to open up the inlet even further. It made a big difference in the power output. I know this definitively because I had another stock bike set up exactly like the White P200 and they were tested side by side. Thanks Luckybear!

So no change but the stock setup and some mild porting of the inlet and exhaust port, and voila, a faster bike that is as robust as stock.

I'm enjoying watching this build...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:43 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
I'm enjoying watching this build...
It will be on hold for about two weeks as I'm out of the country on Saturday.

Trying to get as much done as I can in terms of tear down before I leave so that I can prep a shopping list of everything I need to get the engine together and running. I haven't had the cash to really buy everything needed to get this project rolling during the summer cause that is my slow work season. I'm back into my busy work season as soon as I get back from vacation and want to hit purchase on my shopping list ASAP so I can get this engine running!

Engine is fully disassembled now (aside from two bearings). I took it slow and broke it up into a few short sections of work over the whole day cause it was something like 100 degrees in my garage. I also didn't want to rush and do something wrong leading to damaging the cases so I double checked things constantly. With that said, I can see how if you've done this a couple times, you could easily tear an engine apart and rebuild it completely in about 3 hrs.

The only thing i'm still struggling with right now are the two pin bearings on the flywheel side of the case. I have a SIP bearing extractor tool set which worked well for the clutch side main and axle bearings, but didn't work so well on these pin bearings on the flywheel side. I quickly tried a little heat from a torch and a socket but that didn't work. Probably need more heat. Also the bearing behind the gearbox looks harder to extract cause the gearbox wall overlaps the bearing hole so you can't just stick an extractor or a socket down in there. Of course this extremely helpful italian youtube page has my answers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbJ_ni6-TJQ&t=11m31s
Anyone speak italian that can translate what he says in this section? I think that is a front hub bearing he uses. also not sure what he says about the other pin bearing that he doesn't show the process for.

I also noticed some gouges on the wall of the crankshaft area next to the rotary inlet along the case joint edge which I definitely did not do. It must have been done at the factory or from someone previously. This makes me wonder if this engine has been rebuilt in its short life of actual use.

I also did some research and found a local place that does vapor blasting which I will take the engine cases to and get polished nice once I have it cleaned up and do the grinding on the rotary inlet and matching cases to cylinder.

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small gouges on the joint edge below where the rotary inlet is shown. maybe someone did tear this engine apart at some point?

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another angle of those gouges. I didn't do it, I swear!

IMG_20190730_205301.jpg
sip bearing extractor tool worked well on the clutch side main and axle bearing. not so well on the flywheel side pin bearings.

IMG_20190730_205308.jpg
this is one of the two pin bearings I'm still struggling to extract.

IMG_20190730_205314.jpg
the other pin bearing which you can see the gearbox wall overlapping the hole. no easy way to insert the sip extractor or a socket to bang it out. hesitant to use a normal punch and hammer instead of some specific tool designed for it.

IMG_20190730_205728.jpg
tiny little knicks on the main bearing wall where the circlip goes. I did this cause the circlip was frozen and broke after much effort removing.

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:20 pm quote
Swiss - since u don't have to swap fork to put on disc, urs is a simpler conversion than what Pheas' and j did - however - here are a couple simple things to think about.

- on brake hose, opt for one with removable hardware so it's easier to thread - head goes on just prior to connection to master, and after threading thru fork.
- length, choose the shortest line that will serve its purpose. PIA to deal with extra length in headset.
- get one of these - best $12 u will spend. https://www.amazon.com/Syringe-Plastic-Scientific-Liquid-Dispensing/dp/B07JYLRG99/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?keywords=giant+syringe&qid=1564549330&s=gateway&sr=8-4

GT6 tipped me off when I was pulling out my hair trying to bleed the brake line. Used to "reverse bleed". Ones sold locally at drug store are too small to hold sufficient fluid to finish job before refill - which adds air. Brake bleed made so much simpler in my experience with slow steady use of this, some tubung and a wire tie to stop it comming off and spraying fluid all over...

I also found it helpful to tilt bike to non motor side heavily - so last section of brake line from fork to master is not horizontal. Small uphill makes a big difference. Flick hose with handle end of small screw driver at all connection points repeatedly - damn bubbles will hang right at any narrowed areas like plaque on an aorta.

Oh - and speaking of spraying fluid all over ur bike (it's brutal on paint), cover master with rag as small hole in master chamber will fire fluid back out of master when handle squeezed, and hit u in face like unwanted porn scene.

My $.02.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:38 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
My $.02.
great tips! I have done a complete system flush a couple times, once on my 05 stella using a plastic syringe with surgical tube that is stretchy. Once on the automatic stella that I sold, with a harbor freight brake bleeding system.

The brake bleeding system sucked cause the attachments for the bleeding nipple weren't a close fit. The plastic syringe with hospital tubing worked perfectly cause the stretchy hospital tubing created an excellent vacuum.

I have watched a few videos to refresh my mind at different steps while doing this yesterday and kept seeing this plastic piece slide into the case which was not in my engine. I just looked it up and I believe it is only for the 125 engine. Found the part on SIP which says its an oil guide. Anyone know why this is there on the 125 engine but not on the 200 engine?

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/oil+guide+plastic+for+vespa+_14612900
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:14 pm quote
All the bearings out. Still struggling to get the bushing mounts out. They look good but I still want to replace them since they are 20-40 yr old rubber regardless if they are not smashed.

Did my initial cleaning of the cases as well with a good ole 5 gal home depot bucket full of water and simple green with a brass wire brush, then hosed it down with the garden hose. Still some tough spots to clean up, hoping this is enough to take it to a vapor blaster without them charging me to degrease it. I may take it to a friends garage and use his sand blaster to clean it up more if it's necessary prior to vapor blasting. I've got some time as I want to match the cases and do any porting work prior to getting it vapor blasted.

This project will be on hold until mid august as I am on vacation starting Saturday. Taking the next two days to run errands before I head out, so no more work in the garage till I'm back.

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:26 pm quote
Two questions about the drive shaft. I see there are two versions old and lusso. I have the old as that was in the p200 engines. I will upload a picture of it tomorrow but I am wondering if it is damaged as there are indentations in the slot walls where the cruciform slides probably as a result of the same damage on the cruciform? Just wondering if this is still enough to warrant replacement? Picture to follow tomorrow.

Second question is if the new "Lusso" driveshaft can be replaced into these engines if you also replace the cruciform and possibly the gear selector rod? I know the cruciform and spacer for the old rod are required for the old driveshaft, and it's a different cruciform for new, but not sure if it's same axle dimension in terms of length and thickness. Sip says new is better for tuned engines which makes me think they are interchangeable with all the correct parts. Just want to make sure it is because I've been searching for the correct front axle parts for the disc hub (16mm vs 20mm) which got me wondering if they also changed the axle dimensions when they updated the front axle. Looking at the rear hub options on SIP it seems like nothing changed because they are all compatible with all versions of P200 up through more recent PX "Lusso" bikes.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:33 am quote
The grooves on the drive shaft are inside the inner circumference, not along the edge where the cruciform slides. So I think this is normal designed that way. Drive shaft is good to go. Only imperfection was a small rust spot on the shaft where it won't affect anything which I cleaned up.

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Cruciform guides straight

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Grooves on the inner circle. No way for cruciform to create those grooves. Have to be made like that.

IMG_20190801_102031.jpg
Cleaned up rust spot with dimples.

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:14 pm quote
Finally removed the bushing mounts. On hold with all other projects so I went to home Depot and found a 2 foot 1/2" threaded rod, some washers and nuts plus a 2"x8" steel pipe to get these rubber engine bushings out finally. Tried to pull them both through one direction then I realized that wouldn't work cause there is a hard stop on both sides that prevents the mounts from going in too far. Luckily when I tried to bring them both through one direction it opened up enough space between the two metal mounts to slide a nut in there and fasten the rod in the middle so I could drag one mount out at a time. Also used The larger outer cup from the sip bearing puller set to hold and leverage The 2" diameter pipe, seeing as I couldn't find large enough washers. At some point in the future I will finally bring these cases to get vapor blasted.

I didn't actually need to remove the rubber bushings as they seem in good shape once I pulled them out, but I wanted them out for vapor blasting and figured it would be good to replace them anyways seeing as they are at least 20 yr old rubber.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2795

Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:59 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Two questions about the drive shaft. I see there are two versions old and lusso. I have the old as that was in the p200 engines. I will upload a picture of it tomorrow but I am wondering if it is damaged as there are indentations in the slot walls where the cruciform slides probably as a result of the same damage on the cruciform? Just wondering if this is still enough to warrant replacement? Picture to follow tomorrow.

Second question is if the new "Lusso" driveshaft can be replaced into these engines if you also replace the cruciform and possibly the gear selector rod? I know the cruciform and spacer for the old rod are required for the old driveshaft, and it's a different cruciform for new, but not sure if it's same axle dimension in terms of length and thickness. Sip says new is better for tuned engines which makes me think they are interchangeable with all the correct parts. Just want to make sure it is because I've been searching for the correct front axle parts for the disc hub (16mm vs 20mm) which got me wondering if they also changed the axle dimensions when they updated the front axle. Looking at the rear hub options on SIP it seems like nothing changed because they are all compatible with all versions of P200 up through more recent PX "Lusso" bikes.
I missed you posting last month about your Lusso (or more commonly referred to as "EFL") question...
First off, your driveshaft looks to be in good condition. Second, the whole EFL transmission is different from the old P transmissions. All the loose gears, driveshaft, cruciform, and selector box are different, and can't be interchanged with the older transmission. The later EFL uses an internal driveshaft seal, and an external sealed bearing...therefore is uses a different brake drum, but you can mix and match all the brake drums, but you just have to make sure to use the appropriate sized rear driveshaft seal to match. Converting over to EFL is an expensive endeavor, but I think it should be the first modification done to any engine before ANY performance mods are started. It's way more durable of a transmission. Even Stella's will benefit from the higher quality EFL tranny conversion...which is why I think that (if you're in the US, the 2005 PX150 is a better building block than the Stella). I guess the best of both would be '05 PX guts in to a Stella case?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:00 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
Two questions about the drive shaft. I see there are two versions old and lusso. I have the old as that was in the p200 engines. I will upload a picture of it tomorrow but I am wondering if it is damaged as there are indentations in the slot walls where the cruciform slides probably as a result of the same damage on the cruciform? Just wondering if this is still enough to warrant replacement? Picture to follow tomorrow.

Second question is if the new "Lusso" driveshaft can be replaced into these engines if you also replace the cruciform and possibly the gear selector rod? I know the cruciform and spacer for the old rod are required for the old driveshaft, and it's a different cruciform for new, but not sure if it's same axle dimension in terms of length and thickness. Sip says new is better for tuned engines which makes me think they are interchangeable with all the correct parts. Just want to make sure it is because I've been searching for the correct front axle parts for the disc hub (16mm vs 20mm) which got me wondering if they also changed the axle dimensions when they updated the front axle. Looking at the rear hub options on SIP it seems like nothing changed because they are all compatible with all versions of P200 up through more recent PX "Lusso" bikes.
I missed you posting last month about your Lusso (or more commonly referred to as "EFL") question...
First off, your driveshaft looks to be in good condition. Second, the whole EFL transmission is different from the old P transmissions. All the loose gears, driveshaft, cruciform, and selector box are different, and can't be interchanged with the older transmission. The later EFL uses an internal driveshaft seal, and an external sealed bearing...therefore is uses a different brake drum, but you can mix and match all the brake drums, but you just have to make sure to use the appropriate sized rear driveshaft seal to match. Converting over to EFL is an expensive endeavor, but I think it should be the first modification done to any engine before ANY performance mods are started. It's way more durable of a transmission. Even Stella's will benefit from the higher quality EFL tranny conversion...which is why I think that (if you're in the US, the 2005 PX150 is a better building block than the Stella). I guess the best of both would be '05 PX guts in to a Stella case?
I'm gonna hold off on swapping to EFL as I've got a big enough shopping list with just the necessary items to get it back together and running, including the disc brake front end conversion since the front hub is trash. Some day down the line I will try that conversion, after I recover from the cost of this shopping list.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:32 am quote
Anyone know the part number or link to the alignment pin that goes into the case at the bottom next to one of the bolt holes? I can't find it in either the Stella or vsx parts manuals.

I saw this in an assembly video but when I took my p200 engine apart there was no pin in the case. My Stella has this pin which made the case splitting slightly more difficult, requiring tapping the pin with a punch to get the cases to come apart.

Also, are they supposed to only go in one direction or are they just whichever way?

EDIT: added photo to point out the dowel I am talking about.

IMG_20190904_195839.jpg
what is this part number? Can't find it on any parts manuals.



Last edited by swiss1939 on Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:45 pm quote
Quote:
Converting over to EFL is an expensive endeavor, but I think it should be the first modification done to any engine before ANY performance mods are started
WDC - Intrigued by what it would take to convert to an EFL in my own build (vbb/sprint cases).
Already replacing some parts in mine - curious about incremental.
To avoid hijack - wondering if you might post over on my thread your thoughts/insights.

Swiss - pardon the interruption... looking good.

You mentioned in prior post a question regarding gearing.
IK you wanna hit that 60-65 sweet spot in 4th for cruising.
Kinda critical to this build.

Don't think anyone really commented so giving that post a bump here.

Might be worth posting your current tooth count on clutch/primary/tree/output if still interested.
I'm guessing others have similar - or guys at place like Mercato might be able to make suggestions.
Would be frustrating to build and realize you are too tall or short in 4th to achieve.
Neighbors have heard enough salty language of late...
- CM
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:50 pm quote
Nothing is a hijack. Its all relevant and fluid discussions.

If I remember, Jack suggested leaving gearing standard p200. My goal with this p200 whenever I eventually get to it is to have an insanely torquey scoot that can drive all day at 65 with low rpms.

The stella, not so much.. that one I'm willing to experiment with and get a super peaky fast ride out of. Some day if I can get a handle on building these engines, once both of these are done, then I would love to build a 40+ HP ridiculous ride just for the hell of it. Maybe use the pinasco 250 case and barrel that Ginch has been posting about which isn't on sale yet.

New Pinasco case for 250cc ??
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:58 pm quote
Sean, the locating pin for some crazy reason is not available as a part. I didn't know it either so I asked around and everyone confirmed the same thing. I think I may have one or two around. If you don't find one, I can send one your way. Just let me know...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:55 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Sean, the locating pin for some crazy reason is not available as a part. I didn't know it either so I asked around and everyone confirmed the same thing. I think I may have one or two around. If you don't find one, I can send one your way. Just let me know...
If it's not available, I'm wondering if this is something that can just be fabricated from available metal rods at hardware store. When I get a chance I'll take measurements and see about that. If not I could use one and appreciate it! I'll get back to you about it.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:55 pm quote
It's almost certainly a standard metric size hardened steel dowel pin and you should be able to find one at most commercial fastener or bearing houses. Measure up & call around.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:44 pm quote
I actually do have the pin from the p200 still in one side of the case. I don't remember it being as difficult to split those cases as the stella which required tapping the pin from one side, so I thought it was missing.

One less thing to buy in a long list for this p200 project!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:00 am quote
Ok so since I've had around 5 months of sitting around waiting for parts and slowly troubleshooting probably the most basic thing.. rebuilding my stella engine, I've been contemplating the plan for this p200 project a lot. The original plan was to replace the crank with long stroke and put an MHR kit on top, but to tune it not so much for peak rpm but for torque and cruising speeds.

After I got my 166 kit re-bored and worked on, this p200 stock barrel kept eyeing me in the corner of my garage and I was thinking about using it for practice on something like finding a using boring bar and practicing boring like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coEjKXp5aw4
but that is not realistic as I dont have the space in garage, nor do I want to spend the few thousand on a used one online. So I shelved that idea along with the p200 stock barrel.

This idea of using the barrel wouldn't leave me alone though, and the more I was reading about tuning my stella, thinking about fuel economy being non existent with the tuning now, and how less reliable they run (seeing chandlerman mention it in someones thread), the more I was revisiting the idea of using an MHR kit on my p200. Then came Gickspeed's post about his real 104 allstate and how he saved the rare barrel and crankshaft to reuse with much effort and care.

A real 104 Allstate

I know the p200 is not rare at all and pretty much the polar opposite compared to the 104 allstate, but this idea of saving the barrel and crank hit back on my underlying thought to use the p200 barrel for something. I know most wouldn't waste their time with doing something like this, but I am really interested in doing it for maintaining the reliability, fuel economy and torque characteristics of the stock engine. So I've been going back and forth about possibly putting it back on and trying to use it bone stock for a while before choosing to tune it further, given that I will already have the stella tuned up to my hearts content! So today I pulled that barrel, crankshaft and piston out of the corner of my garage and took a closer look to see if any of it was scored up and damaged from seize. I think it all looks good, piston has some strange dent in the side of it that seems minor and goes inward so I don't think it would be a problem, but the barrel aside from being rusty looks good to go with a minimal hone. Crankshaft only seems to be rusty, there is no wiggle/play in the conrod in and out, only the normal wiggle side to side. It seems solid.

This is my new goal for now whenever I finally get the stella back on road. Clean up the existing p200 barrel and crankshaft. Possibly reuse the original piston, but maybe upgrade the piston to better. Find a new head for the barrel as this one looks shit, probably usable but i'm sure there exists a better more modern head. Then only do very minor tuning adjustments to the existing barrel, ie. measure the ports and figure out the stock timing and adjust the base packer to get slightly optimized port timings, and check to see if I can grind the exhaust port lower like in my stella, to increase the torque as much as possible. This would also give me needed practice with a rotary valve engine before I spend a bunch of money tuning one with all new parts.

My goal is to keep as much fuel economy as possible, increase the torque and maybe get it to maximum top speed of 67mph. I read on scootererotica that an older p200 like this gets 62-64mph real top speed, so I would feel this bike would be perfect for touring with great fuel economy if it can cruise all day at that, and peak out at 67-68. Does this sound possible on the stock barrel with possibly a better piston, head and box exhaust, if all I do is raise the timing slightly, lower the exhaust port and polish the exhaust port, plus maybe change the clutch gear cog? But would also upgrade to 24/24 carb since mine came with 20/20, keeping auto lube system.

If I go this route, I'm wondering best way to remove the rust on the barrel and the crankshaft? I'm thinking to just leave both in a bucket of vinegar for a week then scrub? Does the crankshaft need to be completely disassembled if I do soak it in vinegar and scrub rust off the conrod, or can it be reused without disassembling completely (as long as its still running true)?

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:22 pm quote
V oodoo, your last post seems to been deleted. To answer your question, I finally got around to checking for you on the crunchyness of the big end bearing. It is surprisingly smooth for its age and state of storage. Probably not as smooth as new, but I think with a little bit of gas cleaning as you suggest, it will be fine to run. Question is if I can clean up the rest of it without making the big end bearing more crunchy.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:37 am quote
Yeah...

Given the value of those cases these days and what could happen if I was wrong, it seems like it might be cheap insurance to just get a new one. I look at all your other projects and here I go telling you how to do this one on the cheap if you like to gamble. I just reconsidered after saying what I only might do if I was really desperate (as usual).

You tell me, if you wanna take a chance on the motor I can say what kinda things I might think of.
Might, I said, and might I remind you of this little fiasco? I'd do it all day on a 125 or 150 motor, but is it worth the risk here?
Screwed up, new piston dead.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:09 am quote
On the same page here. That crank is a gamble. Didn't see the last few posts on this. Rusty cranks like that can be ok but I have seen a few rusty ones that fail quite badly in not so many thousand miles.

Re-using the cylinder is fine and that piston is ok, as far as stock goes but the stock porting and 2.5mm piston rings are not so fantastic. If you are going to re-bore it use a GS piston or any 68mm, even a malossi 68.5. They all work.

If getting a new crank get a 60mm, if getting a 60mm open out the inlet, then if you do get a kit it is all ready.

Running a stock barrel will up the economy. Set up of the low end of the carb is key here.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:26 pm quote
Thanks for the warnings! Yes I'm not making this decision for financial reasons but because I want to set it up for as much fuel economy as I can given the Stella is gonna be fuel hungry. And I'm more trying to experiment with the stock barrel to learn rotary timing before throwing serious money into new top end. Safer to thrash the stock barrel if mistakes made.

But I will take both of your advice and replace crank with 60mm for safety and prep for whenever I eventually do put that larger top end on

Now my dilemma once I get the Stella back on the road is do I work on this p200 or the p125x I just picked up which has completely different see of issues!
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2289

Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:13 am quote
Just came across this project, you’re doing a nice thorough job.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:57 pm quote
With all this down time ahead of me, I am starting to put together shopping list for this engine with reusing the stock cylinder, but upgrading to 60mm crank (to set it up for if ever I feel I need to go with a performance cylinder) with a better piston. I don't think I need to rebore it at this time, hoping just a hone job will clean it up for new piston.

I only want to do some porting and timing to the cylinder and rotary valve to open it up slightly and get more torque out of it if possible. Trying to keep it in a fuel efficient manner as opposed to gas guzzler.

Here is what I am thinking currently for replacement parts:

MMW head with 0 squish.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/cylinder+head+mmw+px200+for_13013935

GS piston
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/piston+grandsport+200+cc+_12090000

Mazz Crank 60mm 140/6
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/long+stroke+crankshaft+mazzu_45025000

For exhaust, I am also considering this new viper box exhaust as it is supposedly just like the road xl I have on the stella, but broader power band with a lower peak power rpm. the only thing that concerns me about this is they say it is for tuned engines, which I am trying to slightly tune it, but not go crazy tuning on this.
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+sip+road+xl_24164000
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