First full restoration project.. 1980 P200E
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Molto Verboso
Vespas 1964 GS160, 1965 SS180, 1977 V9A1T, 1983 PX150E
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1547
Location: Siam
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:34 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
A Crapsman socket was donated...
Ahh...brilliant. I need to make one too.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:49 am quote
Same money will get you the SC clutch (same, as all are based on the MMW design) with the CR plates and the 24. The 23 isnít available for now...

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/clutch-bgm-pro-superstrong-2.0-cr80-ultralube-type-cosa2/fl-for-primary-gear-64/65-tooth-vespa-px200-rally200-22-tooth-bgm8322?number=BGM8322
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:01 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Same money will get you the SC clutch (same, as all are based on the MMW design) with the CR plates and the 24. The 23 isnít available for now...

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/clutch-bgm-pro-superstrong-2.0-cr80-ultralube-type-cosa2/fl-for-primary-gear-64/65-tooth-vespa-px200-rally200-22-tooth-bgm8322?number=BGM8322
I have the bgm one on my Stella. Wanted to try the sip one instead. Have seen fmp suggest the bgm gearing has wearing issues, which i had gickspeed cryogenically treat it for added strength. Hoping the sip one can skip that process. Also curious how different the sip and bgm cr80 plates are. Hoping interchangeable.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:03 am quote
Swiss,
I was a bit surprised on how far I opened my exhaust port to clean it up and even it out. I was using various diameter sanding drums so nothing aggressive. Once you get it cleaned up, I wouldn't be surprised if you pickup some more overlap.

I had to laugh, Jack made fun of my exhaust port work the first time around. I thought it was pretty good, and better than what I started with. Needless to say I had to try again and redeem myself with the scooter gods.

I'm not familiar with those transfer ports, is the angle, the way there supposed to be or is it the rough casting? For some reason I'm thinking mine were angled also.

I'm jealous, looks like fun by the way, makes me want to buy one just to clean it up and see what I can get out of it. I have to work on heating my garage so I can get some tinkering time in.
swiss1939 wrote:
...and for Jack/anyone else interested in the port mapping of the stock piaggio 200 cylinder.

More accurate measurements taken from the trace:

Exhaust - 38.77mm
Transfers - 47.98mm
Exhaust Arc Width - 40.98mm

As you can see from the exact trace of the ports, they are extremely rough shaped from factory. Jagged edges everywhere.

Updated port timings with 1mm base gasket:

Exhaust - 166
Transfers - 126
Blowdown - 20

Trying to remind myself of the exhaust width target... 60% of the Bore diameter... 68mm? Which would be 40.8mm. So I am fractionally wider than 60% with my measured arc. So no more widening.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 17, 2020 4:47 pm quote
Hibbert was asking me about the difference in sealing lip on clutch side of p200 crank compared to 150 crank, so his query got me out in the cold garage pulling the parts out to take pictures and post for him here. Mostly looks similar but slight differences i can see. If anyone knows more please share. I'll quote hibbert below with his original questions.
Quote:
Have you noticed on P2 cranks there is a lip on the rotary side that seals the pad off a little deeper than on 125/150 cranks? Reason I'm asking is the Polini crank looks thicker there at least the photo's look like the design might be a little different have you compared that to your stock crank?


PXL_20201118_001723795.jpg
Lml on left, polini 60mm 200 middle, stock p200 right

PXL_20201118_001729091.jpg
Stock 200

PXL_20201118_001733380.jpg
Polini 200

PXL_20201118_001736917.jpg
Lml stock 150

PXL_20201118_001832634.jpg
p200 stock other side

PXL_20201118_001839892.jpg
Polini other side

PXL_20201118_001845532.jpg
lml other side

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:09 pm quote
I'm easing back into this rebuild. One or two small things a day instead of trying to rush to do it all at once. Tonight I cleaned up some of the leftover oil and dust in cracks from the sand blasting on cases. Also took the cover off my Px125 bench seat that I'll use for this p200. Someone put a replacement seat cover over the original seat cover, and both were decaying and cracking. Gonna have to treat the rust on the seat frame and respray black to protect it for the next 40 yrs.

Regarding cases, I noticed some pitting next to the oil drain hole which are just on the inside surface of the case, no marks on the outside. Wondering if this is something I should worry about for structural issues or just ignore it? Also saw similar pitting on the sealing surface for the cylinder base. Should I deal with this pitting next to the right port? Finally, why do they have the side port indents on the case if there are no port openings on the cylinder skirts of these stock p200 barrels?

PXL_20201118_003429271.jpg
pitting near oil drain hole.

PXL_20201118_002848123.jpg
pitting on the mating surface at the top most port in this photo. Thinking I'll leave it alone.

PXL_20201118_003056926.jpg
why have these left and right indents in case when there aren't matching transfer port openings in the stock skirt?

PXL_20201118_003138945.jpg
no transfer port openings in skirts

PXL_20201118_012835930.jpg
bench seat frame from px125

PXL_20201118_012848203.jpg
rusty

PXL_20201118_012854483.jpg

PXL_20201118_012909260.jpg

PXL_20201118_013411073.jpg

PXL_20201118_013429066.jpg

PXL_20201118_013433006.jpg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:13 pm quote
Swiss - looking good.
That pitting is minor - and not a concern.
Even on a sealing surface - a thin layer of sealant under your gasket will ensure no leaks.
So nice to work on such clean cases.

Interesting point about the side transfers.
Looks to me like they were made for a cylinder with multi ports?
Will be interested to hear what others have to say about why and when they were added.
Perhaps it was to plan for the future...
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:14 am quote
Side transfers up inside the piston work well enough. When the base ports are opened up it makes no noticeable difference, without many more changes. Which then, is more work, than its worth. My PX200 is running a extremely modified (20bhp) stock cylinder. So much work I won't be doing another one anytime soon. Buying a kit (and tuning that) is way easier.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:43 pm quote
One of my lesser favorite tasks... getting the damn engine bushing mounts installed. One went on relatively fast. The other one is refusing to go on straight and keeps getting bunched. Heated case, lubed up the hole and plug with tons of soap. Still won't go in straight! Sounds like a personal problem

Save that one for another day.

BTW, I just swallowed hard on a damn expensive SIP order to get the rest of what I need for this engine rebuild. Closed my eyes and pressed purchase. ha!
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:14 pm quote
How close are P200 cases to the earlier P150 cases? I've often wondered if the port locations were a hold over from them. But if that were the case why is the boost port in the correct spot?

Are you going to do some o tuning and put in case ports? If you've got another cylinder you want to put on later now would be the time to cut them in.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:55 am quote
The cases are much the same from crank centerline down, but much different for the top half. I think.

For your messy motor, you're on the right track IMO and looks like there might have been a deelux upholstery kit included when you clicked BUY?


Good!
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:31 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
One of my lesser favorite tasks... getting the damn engine bushing mounts installed. One went on relatively fast. The other one is refusing to go on straight and keeps getting bunched. Heated case, lubed up the hole and plug with tons of soap. Still won't go in straight! Sounds like a personal problem

Save that one for another day.

BTW, I just swallowed hard on a damn expensive SIP order to get the rest of what I need for this engine rebuild. Closed my eyes and pressed purchase. ha!
Not sure how your trying to install your bushings. I used this method when I did my polyurethane bushings and it worked great. I bought the hardware at my local home supply store. I've seen it at hardware stores also.

https://youtu.be/2Qjk_TuMEKs

I used perforated square tubing for the square tubing. Instead of trying to find a pile of washers for the end I cut a piece off and turned it sideways to make a T shape.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-1-in-x-36-in-Zinc-Plated-Punched-Square-Tube-803037/206939549
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:18 am quote
I do basically the same but using a sip bearing puller tool on one side and washers on the other side. But the bushing is not going in straight and one edge keeps getting hung up. If you try to push it through it's just gonna rip the bushing apart.

V oodoo, i didn't buy anything for the seat. I need to figure out a new cushion for the bench seat cause the original way rotted away and stiff. Don't see anyone selling the cushion, only covers.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:09 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I do basically the same but using a sip bearing puller tool on one side and washers on the other side. But the bushing is not going in straight and one edge keeps getting hung up. If you try to push it through it's just gonna rip the bushing apart.

V oodoo, i didn't buy anything for the seat. I need to figure out a new cushion for the bench seat cause the original way rotted away and stiff. Don't see anyone selling the cushion, only covers.
Out of curiosity are you using rubber or polyurethane? Wondering if the stiffer urethane material slides in easier?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:21 am quote
The piaggio original rubber.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:43 am quote
Here's my installer and puller. And you can see the problem where this one edge of the rubber gets hung up and won't go in. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to sand the rubber down just slightly around that inner edge of bushing to get it to start off correctly seating as it gets pulled in.

PXL_20201121_173101863.jpg

PXL_20201121_173456434.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:25 am quote
Parts on way include SIP fast flow fuel tap, same exact 24/24 carb I got on my stella (cause the bike came with a 20/20), VAPE DC Variable ignition, SIP Cosa 2 Ultrastrong with 23T cog and CR80 plates, and I went with the SIP Road 3 exhaust cause it was cheaper than the polini and everything I found online seems to suggest they are very similar in performance. Also got tubeless rims and Heidenau K62 tires which I'll throw on the stella and use the current tubeless on this p200 to start. Did not go with 11" tires/rims cause going with them just seemed a random decision until I hear more about their benefits.

I also just realized I did not get everything I need to complete this engine as I believe I need a new primary gear for the christmas tree cause the existing one has a slight gouge going around the whole gear down the middle of all the teeth faces.. and I should probably rebuild the christmas tree with new springs anyways. Might even need a whole new Christmas tree cause i can see more indents on the face of some of the gear teeth pictured below. Or maybe it's so minor that it didn't matter.

So I guess I'll have another order coming this month to get this engine built.

PXL_20201121_193212140.jpg

PXL_20201121_193509520.jpg



Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:59 am quote
Nothing wrong with your primary. Those gauges are normal and theyíre there to carry oil...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:04 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
Nothing wrong with your primary. Those gauges are normal and theyíre there to carry oil...
Perfect. One less thing to purchase! Actually i vaguely remember mentioning them in the past and think you said the same thing. It's been a while since i looked at this engine.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2795

Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:11 pm quote
Thatís a great list of SIP parts!

For the engine mounts, maybe put them in a pot of boiling water for 5 minutes? It will soften them up quite a bit. Also get the case hot enough that you donít want to touch it with your bare hands, put some grease on everything, then use a mallet to hammer them in.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:35 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Thatís a great list of SIP parts!

For the engine mounts, maybe put them in a pot of boiling water for 5 minutes? It will soften them up quite a bit. Also get the case hot enough that you donít want to touch it with your bare hands, put some grease on everything, then use a mallet to hammer them in.
Ha yeah maybe too brand specific. Good tip on warming the rubber mounts. I'll try that as well. I've been heating the cases pretty hot but that didn't work.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:43 pm quote
Greasing them up and twisting in by hand normally gets them in half way. They're not that tight.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:20 pm quote
Tried that as well. My cases must be tighter tolerances cause these things aren't easy to get in or out.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:31 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Here's my installer and puller. And you can see the problem where this one edge of the rubber gets hung up and won't go in. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to sand the rubber down just slightly around that inner edge of bushing to get it to start off correctly seating as it gets pulled in.
Can you take out whatever that spacer is between the rubber bushing and the big flat washer? Looks like itís allowing the rubber bushing to turn sideways.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:34 pm quote
thats not a spacer, thats the metal tube the rubber bushing is attached to. Photo is of the puller tool loose after I backed off from trying to get it in, so everything is just sitting freely and the bushing was still stuck in.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:44 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
thats not a spacer, thats the metal tube the rubber bushing is attached to. Photo is of the puller tool loose after I backed off from trying to get it in, so everything is just sitting freely and the bushing was still stuck in.
Hmm, I put the urethane bushings, then slid the tube in after I had the bushings in place.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:16 pm quote
as far as i know these original bushings the metal tube doesn't come out of the rubber, they are attached so you gotta put them both in together. Its similar with the lml original bushings. I tore one of those up last year and they have some metal ring on the outside of the tube which the rubber is molded over, which helps hold the rubber to the metal tube. I'm assuming from the way this rubber is molded over the tube it is the same basic construction on the piaggio original bushings.

I should have taken a picture of it when I pulled it apart.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7949
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:47 pm quote
Shouldn't be that hard, I've had to file or Dremel a chamfer in the edge of the hole and use lube and a big hammer to swat it in to start, then draw it all the way in like you are. Maybe some luck was/is involved. Therefore... Good Luck.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1258
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:50 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
as far as i know these original bushings the metal tube doesn't come out of the rubber, they are attached so you gotta put them both in together. Its similar with the lml original bushings. I tore one of those up last year and they have some metal ring on the outside of the tube which the rubber is molded over, which helps hold the rubber to the metal tube. I'm assuming from the way this rubber is molded over the tube it is the same basic construction on the piaggio original bushings.

I should have taken a picture of it when I pulled it apart.
The Clauss mounts the center metal parts are separate, you put the bushing in then the metal tube.
https://www.claussstudios.com/store/p765/Vespa_PX125_PX150_Polyurethane_Engine_Mounts.html
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