First full restoration project.. 1980 P200E
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous12345678
Author Message
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2035
Location: california
Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:04 pm quote
Swiss - I had to take a closer look to really see the hole.
Now that I have - perhaps there is a simpler fix.
Looks like the exhaust port has a stub that is screwed in.
The hole is just behind the threads.
If your stub is - or can be modified to be - longer with no threads for a small portion - it can cover the hole.
Further - if it can go until it bottoms out to the edge I am showing below - it would seal that off?
How about just having a ring welded on the port stub so that you can bottom it out? Can you show a picture of the stub?

original_7b2c2b7e_cebe_4097_bc21_9de000cf6372_pxl_20210115_154443865_1_60298.jpg
This flat here - does the stub screw in far enough to bottom out on it?

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:13 pm quote
That might be more work than needed. Especially if they replace it. On top of that hole, the threads for the exhaust stub seem to be cast poorly as well. I have tried repeatedly to get the exhaust manifold threaded on and it just wont thread on. It's not the manifold that is the issue. It's brand new, and I double checked it was the right part for this cylinder. Ordered it from Mercato.

Here is pic of my new exhaust manifold.

PXL_20210118_230940043.jpg

PXL_20210118_230950541.jpg

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2035
Location: california
Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:18 pm quote
Got it.
Well - now seeing - if you wanted to - you could take a Dremel to the first 2 or 3 threads - and then run it in until it bottoms out - covering the hole.

But of course - you would have to be able to run it in!
Sounds like the threads on the casting need to be chased.
Send that thing back!

🙂
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:53 pm quote
Installed primary and finally figured out a problem I had when doing the same on my Stella. Original discussion here:
http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2371849#2371849

The SIP needle bearings I bought for the Stella didnt fit and were not as rounded on the ends as the LML original which led to the primary not rotating freely. For the Stella, I just ordered new bearings from mercato and they worked. I saved the SIP needle bearings that were new at the time and just installed them into this primary. Once torqued down it rotates freely with no issue. I was talking to greasy about it and he confirmed that there are slightly different needle bearings based on P vs EFL model primaries. Quirky little difference that you would never know and was barely noticeable as they measured exactly the same length and thickness... only difference being the P needle bearings are flat ended, whereas the LML/EFL needle bearings are rounded ended.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:27 am quote
Replacement barrel on the way, along with some needed random parts to complete engine.

They did not want me to send old barrel back due to cost of shipping, so this defect barrel will be experimented on to see if I can get the hole fixed up, and also to see exactly how wide I can dremel the exhaust without breaking into the stud holes.

Jack, this means I will do the extreme of what you think is ideal for working a p200 stock barrel. I'll even open up some transfer ports in the skirt. No fear on the already defective barrel.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:57 am quote
Just got an unexpected call from Dave @ Mercato. He heard I had problem with the p200 barrel and wanted to let me know that he had same/similar issues with the taiwan made p200 barrels and stopped carrying them. He confirmed everything that I was seeing wrong with my barrel, one being all this leftover artefacts from casting was not cleaned out of the ports.. so there is a lot of rubble/roughness in the ports that he said his tech had to knock all of that out using screwdriver and essentially a wire brush. Second problem which he said was why he stopped carrying the taiwan barrel was the exhaust thread issue I noticed as well. The threads that are cut aren't cut straight on, but slightly on an angle so when you try to thread the stub in, the stub can't get onto the threads because it hits up against the cylinder/fin wall. I asked if he was able to solve that problem, possibly by dremeling the fin wall on the side that contacts with the stub. He said he just threw those barrels out. Kinda shocking that SIP sells these barrels if they have so many issues.

If the replacement coming from SIP has similar issues and doesn't work then I'm ordering the part from Dave @ mercato because he confirms he sells the Piaggio original part.

I'm gonna see if I can dremel the barrel opening at the stub to get the stub threaded on, but even if that happens it might not allow the exhaust to mount properly since its gonna be on a slightly off kilter angle compared to stock.

Part I originally ordered was the SIP Serie Pro p200 barrel with GS Piston:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-serie-pro-200-cc_41470700

They sell the Piaggio original which instead has the ASSO piston:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-piaggio-200-cc_41470800

I thought the Serie Pro kit was simply the Piaggio original cylinder with an upgraded GS Piston. It appears the barrel is not Piaggio but a Taiwan copy.

They also sell a P200 barrel without piston, just by itself:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-200-cc_41470710

The descriptor for this barrel by itself says "Grade D - adequate repair" and does not have the Piaggio logo on the item page. I thought this was weird cause it was the same barrel depicted for both the above. I am now thinking this is the Taiwan copy barrel with casting issues which is also included in the Serie pro kit with GS Piston, and the only way you can get the piaggio original from them is to order the kit with the ASSO piston. So if you want to get the Piaggio barrel with the GS Piston you need to order the original kit with ASSO piston and the GS Piston by itself.

PXL_20210119_191532225~2.jpg
Circled is the outer opening on the fins which hits the stub. Gonna widen this opening to see if stub threads on

PXL_20210119_191636486.jpg
Casting crap left over in all the ports. Need to clean out

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:06 pm quote
You have a lot of options now. Your original rusty 200 cylinder could probably take that GS piston.
Cancel the Taiwan replacement and get an iron Polini 207. Just like stock reliability when set up right.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2922

Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:19 pm quote
^^^^Someone mention cast iron Polini kit?....

37515040-D140-48EA-B362-148F9E6D7657.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:29 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
You have a lot of options now. Your original rusty 200 cylinder could probably take that GS piston.
Cancel the Taiwan replacement and get an iron Polini 207. Just like stock reliability when set up right.
I've got i believe the piaggio original cylinder already on way. I ordered the piaggio kit with asso piston. Too late to cancel. Another time on the polini!

And yes I've got the original rusty cylinder i may do something with as well if i can't get the exhaust stub to thread on this defective one. Already took the dremel to the fin area to widen it to fit the stub. Still couldn't get it to thread on and it even felt like the threaded section is not even or right thickness cause the stub just doesn't want to sit flat to start threading on. Gonna keep widening everything a bit more cause one section still feels like it's blocking the stub. Regardless even if it won't thread on, even more reason to use the cylinder as an experimental one to see how wide i can get the exhaust port before breaking through. This would give me a better understanding if i want to go wider on one of the usable stock barrels.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:23 am quote
Still waiting on replacement cylinder. International shipping is extremely slow lately.

But I did get the new cruciform from scooter mercato and went to assemble the gearbox, but realized the selector rod needs replace cause it won't thread on smoothly to new cruciform. Thread is slightly damaged.

While I was in there examining the threads I noticed some damage to 2nd gear as well. The inside surface of 2nd gear where the cruciform slides into and out of gear has some chipped/raised edge damage in the slots where the cruciform locks into place for 2nd gear. Those fractured sections are pictured below.

PXL_20210126_161434591.jpg

PXL_20210126_161338593.jpg

PXL_20210126_161359904.jpg

Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1981
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:51 am quote
Bummer... Good find though! Shifting is going to be much smoother!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:57 am quote
Yeah. Not sure if it really is an issue cause the cruciform doesn't even contact that surface of the inner ring, but when I noticed it, I took a dental pick to it and was able to pick off a flake of metal. So I figure its better to replace so that any other flakes of metal from those sections don't fall off into the engine. Not even sure how those fractures happen given the cruciform doesn't contact that section. I can't even see that lip of metal on any photos of other P 2nd gears online so I'm guessing it was an old gear cast from the 70's that they replaced at some point.

Ordering these parts from Scooter Mercato cause my replacement cylinder is shipping excruciatingly slow! It's taking the grand tour of Germany right now. 2 days in Gersthofen, 2 days in Munich Airport, 2 days in Frankfurt, now 2 days in Koelne. I wish I got the same vacation!
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1981
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:07 am quote
I've found that when it comes to scooter parts, patience is key. I'd love to just go down to AutoZone and pick up whatever I need, but niche machine means....patience....

I'm just thankful we don't have to make our own parts!
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:43 pm quote
Cogs are fine. Clean them up and put them back in.
Selector shaft threads do get damaged. Lot of strain on them. EFL ones seem to wear even faster than the old type. I use a new one with every new cruciform. If the cruciform breaks off the shaft at speed you'll most likely die.

Still waiting for a German delivery myself. Been weeks already. And not exactly far. If it doesn't come soon I'll be recyling some old parts to get running again.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2035
Location: california
Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:26 pm quote
A certain German delivery took a month to arrive for the Orange Unicorn.
Just hit the doorstep a few days ago.
Woulda bought it state side - but it was custom made - of thin stainless - two walls thick - hand rolled on the thighs of a German virgin.
Well - that's not completely true - cause it was tig welded and that woulda really burned.
Anyhow:
Quote:
only difference being the P needle bearings are flat ended, whereas the LML/EFL needle bearings are rounded ended.
That was a damn good find.
It matched my experience - and you explanation here does as well.
When I built my EFL transmission - wrong needles would spin fine - until the counter shaft nut was torqued (one next to the clutch cover).
Then it would bind.
They measured the exact same length - but that little end detail was present - and it was all it took.

Nice one Swiss.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:52 am quote
A month is pretty quick for one of those rare specimens. Update your own thread. Bet you're excited to see what that does.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2167
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:34 am quote
Smells like Pipe Design Spirit...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:12 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Cogs are fine. Clean them up and put them back in.
You were correct. It was apparently flashing left over from casting. I took the dental pick to those fractured overhangs and was able to scrape them all clean and flush to where they were supposed to be. Guess the Italians were rushing home for pasta that day in 1979 and threw this gear into the pile without cleaning it up after removal from the cast!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:50 am quote
Ok I finally got a piaggio original cylinder with no defects/issues. Dave @ Scooter Mercato came to the rescue. I ended up with 2 defective cylinders from SIP both from the Taiwan manufacturer (both refunded.. so I basically just paid shipping costs for a GS Piston from them). When the piaggio original arrived from Mercato, I recognized in 2 seconds why these two cylinders are defective and have holes where there shouldn't be.

The Piaggio cylinder has threads cut about half inch into the stub/exhaust hole, and the stub hole drilled for the threads ends right at the bottom of the threads. These Taiwan cylinders, the threads are cut 3/4" to an inch deep, plus the stub hole drilled was drilled another quarter to half inch below the end of the longer threads cut. This means that stub hole is drilled about 1/2-1" deeper than on the piaggio original cylinder.. which is why they break into the mounting stud holes. So fair warning to anyone reading. Do not order the Serie Pro P200 kit with GS piston, or the P200 barrel without a piston from SIP as both of those contain the defective Taiwanese made P200 barrels. Hopefully after my two refunds from them, they will go through and check all their remaining stock to remove any other defective items from their stock.

I'll post pictures later this week when I get a chance. Busiest week at work.. Super Bowl 55!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:51 am quote
Taiwan P200 Barrel

Stub hole drill depth: 15.16mm
Exhaust Stub thread depth: 9.76mm

Piaggio P200 Barrel

Stub hole drill depth: 7.66mm
Exhaust stub thread depth: approx 7.5mm

So the Taiwan P200 barrels get their exhaust stub hole drilled about a quarter of an inch deeper than they should be.. which leads to breaking into the nearest mounting stud hole.

PXL_20210130_172434382.jpg
Original Taiwan barrel with smaller hole defect.

PXL_20210130_172459241.jpg
Taiwan stub hole depth.

PXL_20210130_172525176.jpg
Taiwan exhaust stub thread cut depth

PXL_20210130_172652077.jpg
Piaggio original stub hole cut depth

PXL_20210130_172715910.jpg
Piaggio original stub hole cut depth

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:42 am quote
Used the worse of the defective barrels to make sure my target exhaust width wouldn't break through into the mounting stud holes.

Stock exhaust width measurements for this barrel:

arc width: 39.64mm
chord width: 37.33mm
exhaust width percent: 56.14%

Target exhaust width percent: 65%
chord length of a 65% exhaust width = 43.22mm
Arc length of that chord length = 47.06mm

So I had to widen the exhaust by approximately 7.5mm total and 3.7mm each side.

This was accomplished without breaking into the mounting stud holes, but as pictured, the widened exhaust passage is shallow and a venturi instead of a deep wide opening. Going any deeper on those interior walls would have definitely broken through stud holes.

When I get back up to NYC next week I'll break out my narrow calipers to measure exactly how much material thickness is remaining between stud hole and exhaust interior wall to get an idea of just how close I got to breaking through. Once I get this in-depth picture of my tolerances I'll apply same principals to the good cylinder.

sean_scan_testbarrel_65width.jpg
trash barrel measurements.

PXL_20210204_182007489.jpg
completed widening and raising of exhaust port.

PXL_20210204_182203977.jpg

PXL_20210204_182211195.jpg

PXL_20210204_182211537.jpg

PXL_20210204_182218165.jpg

PXL_20210204_182246771.jpg

PXL_20210204_182317855.jpg

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:23 pm quote
It's going to work. If you screw in the exhaust stub tight, it's possible to Dremel through it to smooth out the transition. Get it all tidier and symmetrical, as far as possible with the angled outlet.

The GS piston windows might need some work to line up better.

Don't forget to chamfer all ports top and bottom. They do look a bit rough.

What will the final durations be?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:37 pm quote
I'm not actually using this cylinder. I just dremeled it rough and fast to make sure it wouldn't break through. When I go to do the actual cylinder I will definitely keep it smoother.

I've been curious about what work needs to be done to the GS Piston in terms of dremel work to smooth out and or optimize the ports.

And as far as that test cylinder, I profiled the exhaust port and raised it approx 3.2mm to hit 180 degrees, and all the timings measured on that including rotary valve would be:

1mm squish
119/180 transfer/exhaust
31 blowdown
121/74 rotary timing with 195 degree admission.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:02 am quote
I would just use that cylinder. Tidy it up a bit and try it. If it is too much, then do less on the next one.

What exhaust pipe?

The GS piston will need all three windows raised for a 60mm crank, how much is 1.5mm + any base packer + a bit. The window sides usually need some alignment but you will need to dry fit in the cases to decide how much.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2922

Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:39 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Just got an unexpected call from Dave @ Mercato. He heard I had problem with the p200 barrel and wanted to let me know that he had same/similar issues with the taiwan made p200 barrels and stopped carrying them. He confirmed everything that I was seeing wrong with my barrel, one being all this leftover artefacts from casting was not cleaned out of the ports.. so there is a lot of rubble/roughness in the ports that he said his tech had to knock all of that out using screwdriver and essentially a wire brush. Second problem which he said was why he stopped carrying the taiwan barrel was the exhaust thread issue I noticed as well. The threads that are cut aren't cut straight on, but slightly on an angle so when you try to thread the stub in, the stub can't get onto the threads because it hits up against the cylinder/fin wall. I asked if he was able to solve that problem, possibly by dremeling the fin wall on the side that contacts with the stub. He said he just threw those barrels out. Kinda shocking that SIP sells these barrels if they have so many issues.

If the replacement coming from SIP has similar issues and doesn't work then I'm ordering the part from Dave @ mercato because he confirms he sells the Piaggio original part.

I'm gonna see if I can dremel the barrel opening at the stub to get the stub threaded on, but even if that happens it might not allow the exhaust to mount properly since its gonna be on a slightly off kilter angle compared to stock.

Part I originally ordered was the SIP Serie Pro p200 barrel with GS Piston:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-serie-pro-200-cc_41470700

They sell the Piaggio original which instead has the ASSO piston:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-piaggio-200-cc_41470800

I thought the Serie Pro kit was simply the Piaggio original cylinder with an upgraded GS Piston. It appears the barrel is not Piaggio but a Taiwan copy.

They also sell a P200 barrel without piston, just by itself:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/cylinder-200-cc_41470710

The descriptor for this barrel by itself says "Grade D - adequate repair" and does not have the Piaggio logo on the item page. I thought this was weird cause it was the same barrel depicted for both the above. I am now thinking this is the Taiwan copy barrel with casting issues which is also included in the Serie pro kit with GS Piston, and the only way you can get the piaggio original from them is to order the kit with the ASSO piston. So if you want to get the Piaggio barrel with the GS Piston you need to order the original kit with ASSO piston and the GS Piston by itself.
Quite a bit off topic, but that really looks like a Joy Division t shirt you’re wearing
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Feb 05, 2021 9:59 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Quite a bit off topic, but that really looks like a Joy Division t shirt you’re wearing
Good catch! Close to a Joy Division shirt..which I would wear if I had one, and why I bought this one when I saw it!



https://www.scooterworks.com/T-Shirt-Scooter-Pleasures-P13563.aspx
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:06 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
What exhaust pipe?
SIP Road 3
Jack221 wrote:
The GS piston will need all three windows raised for a 60mm crank, how much is 1.5mm + any base packer + a bit. The window sides usually need some alignment but you will need to dry fit in the cases to decide how much.
I'll have to take a closer look when I get to installing everything. I did just take some measurements of both the GS Piston and Meteor Piston ports to compare. I'll post pics and measurements later, but the summary.. all of the meteor piston ports are larger than the GS piston ports.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Feb 05, 2021 12:28 pm quote
I know this is not accurate area increased calculations, but just basic comparison of same measurements.

Meteor Piston
width: 66.25mm
height: 82.55mm
compression height: 48.25mm

GS Piston
width: 66.17mm
height: 82.75mm
compression height: 48.86mm

Norrie Kerr talks about the compression height of a piston and Im probably calculating this wrong, but it seems he was saying compression height is the length from the top of the piston crown to the center point of the cudgeon pin. I measured the length from the top of the cudgeon pin hole to the top of the piston crown, then measured the width of the cudgeon pin hole, cut that in half and added it to the previous measurement to get my compression height numbers.

EDIT: revisted compression height and I measured wrong. It is not top of piston crown to center of cudgeon pin, but edge of piston crown to center of pin. So I should be measuring from where the piston crown meets the piston wall.

PXL_20210205_173134033.jpg

PXL_20210205_173116435.jpg

PXL_20210205_173102512.jpg

PXL_20210205_173116435_b.jpg



Last edited by swiss1939 on Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2645
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:20 pm quote
And while I was out in the garage taking piston measurements, I also took measurements/tracing from the Piaggio original P200 barrel.

38.9mm exhaust height
approx 47.42mm transfer height
gives a 165/128 and 19 degree blowdown timings untouched with a -1mm squish.
37.88mm exhaust width = 54% width.

widen the exhaust to 47.06mm to get 65% exhaust width, raising it 3mm to get 177/128 24 degree blowdown. Plus profiling the exhaust to be squarer at the top and slightly rounder at the bottom for ring safety while still getting the 65% width increase.

PIAGGIO_P200_STOCK_PORT_MEASUREMENTS.jpg
Piaggio original barrel measurements and exhaust profiling.

Rallies Europe 2016   DoubleGood Vespa T-Shirts   Yelcome Leather Top Cases and Roll Bags for Piaggio Vespa PX LX LXV GTS GTV
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous12345678
[ Time: 0.2828s ][ Queries: 28 (0.0924s) ][ Debug on ]