lighting coils and voltages Super 150
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Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:27 pm quote
Hello all

new joiner here with a request for advice please!

The scooter is a 6v non battery 150 super; i seem to have problems with the lighting brightness (too bright) and unexpected operation. The questions are toward the end of post.....

Background:
My handle bar switch fell apart so I replaced it with an Indian copy and I recall that I wired it in the same way as it came out, matching the Haynes manual wiring diagram as best as i could
The speedo was changed and the bulb uses two wires rather than the single wire and direct to earth per the manual
All bulbs are per the 150 Super spec in the manual as to wattage
The rear light was an awful, ugly black plastic affair and i replaced it with a second hand and possibly cheapo plastic chrome type from a the Scooterfest bike jumble. I copied the earthing and feed arrangements and they seem to follow the Haynes diagram also.

Issues:
the lights are now VERY bright (compared to when the old rear light assembly was on the scooter) and depositing metal on the inside of the festoon bulbs. They will blow soon.
The brake light glows dimly even when the brake is off but if pressed it will get slightly brighter and reduce the tail light brightness.

I appreciate this is a balanced system with no real, separate voltage regulator. Measuring the output at the terminal block on the blue and yellow lightning coil wires we saw 1.6 volts as I eased the kick start over by hand and a solid 12v when the scooter was running.

Questions:
is it likely that someone has fitted a 12v coil here hence giving the over-bright 6v bulbs? or
is it more likely that I have a short to the lighting circuit from the horn/brake light circuit?
are there any "known issues" or "go tos" with the wiring looms on the this model?
any other reasons why o am getting over-bright lights?
the wiring diagram for this model shows an earth one the twp other coils but not on the lighting coil. is this just an accidental omission or is there no earth there?

Looking at the flywheel it has been butchered and I do not give much hope in getting it off without more damage. the connections at the terminal box have even been soldered together rather than using spades so separating them to do more tests is a b*gger too as it looks like they are smaller than the usual Lucar male/female spades?

Thoughts (apart from "scrap it"!) as to the questions above most welcome.

cheers
RDS
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3670
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:50 pm quote
I hate to do it but please post some pics of your scooter both of the whole thing and of your wiring and flywheel.
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Wed May 01, 2019 3:12 am quote
Hello John

thanks for the reply but it is sadly not practical to do internal pictures: as I said, the flywheel is not going to budge without more damage also the inspection holes are filled in (!) hence we need to diagnose externally from the info I have collected.

The scooter is stored a distance from me also.

The scooter is just a standard late 60/ early 70s VBC Super 150 with trapezoidal headlight (ie non circular).

It did not have over-bright lights before the change of rear light, speedo or switch hence my thought that the wiring fault is there. But with the high voltage wen running, my thoughts turned also to the coil.

cheers

RDS
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4515
Location: So Cal
Wed May 01, 2019 3:52 am quote
Welcome RDS.

The reason sdjohn asked for pics is because different switches, bulbs and wiring were used on different models in different markets in different years. Itís hard to diagnose a problem like this without seeing the scoot, or at least knowing the year.

From your description thereís a good chance itís an Asian import, in which case who knows what was done to it.

Are you sure itís even a Super? They didnít have trap headlights.

Last edited by SoCalGuy on Wed May 01, 2019 4:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3670
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed May 01, 2019 4:22 am quote
Yup what Socal said. Pics please of what you can get easily. You can attach or link them.
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Wed May 01, 2019 4:30 am quote
Many thanks for the welcome Socalguy

The scoot was verified as a VBC Super 150 by the VMSC in UK

I have managed to find one pic of the previous switch before replacement. I cannot get a photo of the flywheel until i go up next.

The bulbs are all per the ratings for a Super in the Haynes Manual.

Please let me re-phrase my questions so i can prepare before making the trip to the scooter's storage place:
What voltage do you see at tick over with a 6v coil on a non battery 150? I am seeing 12v

If I should be seeing 6v what would cause me to see 12v? a cross feed from another coil?

are the Haynes etc wiring diagrams accurate or known to be defective eg missing earth's off (like the coil here)

yes I appreciate that there are many variations to aftermarket etc parts and who knows what has happened to the scoot over 40+ years, DIY "customisers" notwithstanding!!.

cheers

RDS

DSC_7991.JPG

Hooked
1974 200 Rally, 1970 180 Rally, 1980 P150X and P200E
Joined: 22 May 2017
Posts: 155
Location: George, South Africa
Wed May 01, 2019 7:51 am quote
How many wires come from the stator? If 5, then it is 6V. If 3, then it was converted to 12V. Also, is the brake light switch the opener type (6V) or closure type?
Hooked
Vespa
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 326
Location: US
Wed May 01, 2019 10:06 am quote
assuming it's 6v and junction box with correct color wires then your wires to switch should looks like the first picture.

This is from my all original unmolested 1966 Super.

siemswitch.jpg

jbox.jpg

Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Wed May 01, 2019 10:42 am quote
many thanks for that phongvu

i think i can see some inconsistencies in what i found on mine, but as you say it is assuming that the wire colours still match up. I will take a photo of the junction box when i next get to the scooter.

What output do you get in the coils at idle please?

cheers

RDS
Hooked
Vespa
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 326
Location: US
Wed May 01, 2019 2:44 pm quote
I don't remember exactly how many volt. But it's vary between 4.5-5 during low idling. Hopefully, picture of jbox will help identify if the correct wires are being used from stator.
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Thu May 02, 2019 1:59 am quote
yes that would make sense on a 6v system at idle. I found it very odd to get 12v on mine.

Anyway my junction box is the almost rectangular type (not that the shape itself determines voltage) and the connections in it are far from perfect.

thanks again for your input.

RDS
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Wed May 08, 2019 7:18 am quote
Whilst waiting to get to my scooter to take some photos which I can then post, here is the theoretical wiring issue which i was trying to address in the earlier post.

The attached wiring diagram is a representation of the one in the manual and coloured for ease of reference.

See the lighting coil with the blue and yellow wires coming out of it? It does not have ab earth indicated like the coil with the green and black wires. Nor does the manual show the earth/return path and nor do any other diagrams for the VBC that i have accessed. Are they correct, or not (they may of course be "copies" of each other of course....

However, according to at least some parts of the wiring diagram, one end of a bulb is connected to earth (frame), but since no part of the relevant coil is connected to earth, there seems to be no complete circuit through which the current can flow!

What is going on here? is the earth symbol just merely missing?

thanks

RDS

Wiring diagram Super VBC1_VLB1_VNL2_VNC1.pdf
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 Filename:  Wiring diagram Super VBC1_VLB1_VNL2_VNC1.pdf
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Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4515
Location: So Cal
Wed May 08, 2019 8:01 am quote
There are no missing grounds in the diagram.
The "green coil" signal grounds at the stator plate.
The "red coil" signal grounds at the ignition coil and the handlebar via the kill switch. There is also an earth ground for the spark plug.
The "yellow/blue coil" signal grounds to the frame via the taillight and there is also an earth ground for the speedo bulb in the headset.
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Wed May 08, 2019 8:23 am quote
many thanks for that socalguy

a friend and i both looked at this independently and could not figure the circuit. i'll discuss with him and put him straight...
Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2019
Posts: 8

Wed May 08, 2019 3:41 pm quote
danie wrote:
How many wires come from the stator? If 5, then it is 6V. If 3, then it was converted to 12V. Also, is the brake light switch the opener type (6V) or closure type?
Hello danie thanks for that, i had neglected to thank you before. I will have a look next time that i travel to the scooter.

cheers

RDS
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