First Scooter, not my first project.
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Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 987
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:37 am quote
JimVonBaden wrote:
Also, on the gear selector box there is an open threaded hole. Is this just capped, or should there be something else in there?


It obviously had something there at one time? Maybe why my shifter is so hard to use?
Should be a neutral switch...
https://www.scooterworks.com/Neutral-Switch-US-Model-P200-P125-P1547.aspx
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:56 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
JimVonBaden wrote:
Also, on the gear selector box there is an open threaded hole. Is this just capped, or should there be something else in there?


It obviously had something there at one time? Maybe why my shifter is so hard to use?
Should be a neutral switch...
https://www.scooterworks.com/Neutral-Switch-US-Model-P200-P125-P1547.aspx
Awesome. That explains why mine doesn't work. The bike is a P125X with a 200 motor in it. No switch, but the wires must be somewhere.

Thanks,
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:44 am quote
Turns out I have not only the sensor, but the wiring is there too.


In a bag of nuts and bolts.


Ziptied to the spark plug and ignition wires. I thought it was for the old points ignition from the 125 engine.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 987
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:03 am quote
Awesome! Hook it up and marvel at your neutral light turning on!
Hooked
58 VB1T, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 107
Location: Long Beach, CA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:12 am quote
There should be a rubber cap covering the carb box hole, which prevents all that gunk from getting in there. The selector box hole is where the neutral indicator switch goes. A small switch that gets activated by the internals, and lights up the Neutral indicator light on the headset. There should be a wire pigtail that comes down the backside of the motor with 2 small spade connectors & a rubber boot to cap it all off. These switches can be troublesome, and often they are simply disconnected/broken/or just plain missing

neutral switch.jpg

Hooked
58 VB1T, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 107
Location: Long Beach, CA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:12 am quote
haha beat me too it! Glad you found it
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:25 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Awesome! Hook it up and marvel at your neutral light turning on!
Fingers crossed!
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:28 am quote
GeekLion wrote:
There should be a rubber cap covering the carb box hole, which prevents all that gunk from getting in there. The selector box hole is where the neutral indicator switch goes. A small switch that gets activated by the internals, and lights up the Neutral indicator light on the headset. There should be a wire pigtail that comes down the backside of the motor with 2 small spade connectors & a rubber boot to cap it all off. These switches can be troublesome, and often they are simply disconnected/broken/or just plain missing
Let's hope it works. For the full tear down and rebuild over winter I have a new wiring harness, so hopefully it will fix and lingering issues. So far everything seems to be working OK, with the exception of the neutral light and left rear signal.
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:08 pm quote
Switch installed and checked, it is good. changed the wire connectors as they were bad.



Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 987
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:18 pm quote
Awesome! Now you need the rubber grommet to protect it. The original is a boot that goes on it, but you could also use this, which is used for the front brake switch that is almost the same. I just replaced the rubber grommet on mine.

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Grommets/C-4722375

this is the original part which might force the wire to bend sharper than your heat shrink allows.
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Grommets/167304
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:09 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Awesome! Now you need the rubber grommet to protect it. The original is a boot that goes on it, but you could also use this, which is used for the front brake switch that is almost the same. I just replaced the rubber grommet on mine.

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Grommets/C-4722375

this is the original part which might force the wire to bend sharper than your heat shrink allows.
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Grommets/167304
I have the rubber grommet kit, so it is in there. Cool!
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:45 am quote
Took it for a 10 mile ride around town. It runs OK, needs adjustment on the carb for sure.

The bigger issue is that it nearly refuses to go into first, instead only neutral. Can the neutral switch cause an issue?

Also, it pops out of 2nd all the time, going into neutral. Third and fourth work fine.

From just a quick search it sounds like the cruciform is likely bad. Anything else to look for? Links to replacing it and adjusting the shift controls?

The clutch feels fine most of the time, but is occasionally grabby for no apparent reason.
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jul 06, 2019 6:08 am quote
No comments on potential fixes for the shifting issue?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7202
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:25 am quote
Arrrgh... so many possibilities, no easy answer.
First off, your clutch needs to be working well and not dragging. The grabbiness you are seeing is usually caused by the bronze bushing inside the clutch being worn and loose. And any warpage in the plates can cause dragging and make shifting difficult. Also make sure the plunger to cover fit isn't worn and sloppy. Have you rebuilt the clutch or is it as you found it?

As for 'finding' the gears, I suppose that you are up on getting the cables adjusted properly, not too tight w/ just a tiny bit of slack. Also make sure the cable outers aren't too long as this makes S curves inside the tunnel, which causes a lot of added friction. If you can pull them more than 3 or 4 inches past the adjuster, they may be too long. I cut mine to 1" past the adjuster.

If it's not cables & adjustment, you can check things inside the transmission by undoing the cables and shifting the batwing by hand with the back wheel off the ground and spinning the tire as you try all 4 gears and neutral. You should be able to see if that neutral switch is creating any problems at this point.

Report back and we'll damn well get to the bottom of this!

But cheer up. The good news is that if it is the cruciform, it can be replaced without removing the motor.
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:28 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
Arrrgh... so many possibilities, no easy answer.
First off, your clutch needs to be working well and not dragging. The grabbiness you are seeing is usually caused by the bronze bushing inside the clutch being worn and loose. And any warpage in the plates can cause dragging and make shifting difficult. Also make sure the plunger to cover fit isn't worn and sloppy. Have you rebuilt the clutch or is it as you found it?

As for 'finding' the gears, I suppose that you are up on getting the cables adjusted properly, not too tight w/ just a tiny bit of slack. Also make sure the cable outers aren't too long as this makes S curves inside the tunnel, which causes a lot of added friction. If you can pull them more than 3 or 4 inches past the adjuster, they may be too long. I cut mine to 1" past the adjuster.

If it's not cables & adjustment, you can check things inside the transmission by undoing the cables and shifting the batwing by hand with the back wheel off the ground and spinning the tire as you try all 4 gears and neutral. You should be able to see if that neutral switch is creating any problems at this point.

Report back and we'll damn well get to the bottom of this!

But cheer up. The good news is that if it is the cruciform, it can be replaced without removing the motor.
Awesome. Thanks for the input, it gives me some direction.

I saw this and it looks like a few ideas, similar to yours, to check:
If I must I will pull the motor, but I was hoping to hold off on that until winter when I tear it all the way down for a full rebuild of motor and body.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 642
Location: california
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:10 pm quote
Jim - the smart guys have weighed in with the good stuff.
Assuming you are starting with the simple first - and it is related to cable adjustment - here is my $.02.



Along with the tombs written on this - I like to add raising the rear wheel. This allows you to change gears easily/ one hand on shifter, one to move wheel back and fourth qtr turn to make it easy to slide between gears.

- This allows you to check tension in ea. gear. My experience - only the cable that is pulling will be in tension when properly adjusted. Other one will be looser and not in full tension.
- Start with first. In your case - if the non pulling cable is tight - it could keep it from allowing you to get there. Or - if the pulling cable is loose - it will not be able to overcome any tension from the non pulling cable.

Hope it helps.

- CM
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:18 pm quote
Jim,
if you do need to replace the cruciform, you might as well spend the extra time and money to do a complete engine rebuild. The cases have to be split to get to the Ďcross, and it isnít much more time to remove the crankshaft (in order to replace the bearings and seals). Be aware (or prepared?) that you will most likely have to replace some of the loose gears (1st through 3rd), because they are more or less a wear item. Anytime I open up an old Vespa engine, I can just about count on replacing LOTS of parts!...such as a whole new clutch assembly, crankshaft (50% of the time), 1st through 3rd gears (95% of the time), cruciform (100% of the time), bearings, seals, piston (30% of the time), new springs in the Christmas tree gear. Some people will get away with just installing a new cruciform and crank bearings/seals, but I think itís a risky move. If you want something that super reliable (and fun), itís going to cost a fair amount up front...once, not 2 or 3 times down the road.
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:01 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Jim - the smart guys have weighed in with the good stuff.
Assuming you are starting with the simple first - and it is related to cable adjustment - here is my $.02.



Along with the tombs written on this - I like to add raising the rear wheel. This allows you to change gears easily/ one hand on shifter, one to move wheel back and fourth qtr turn to make it easy to slide between gears.

- This allows you to check tension in ea. gear. My experience - only the cable that is pulling will be in tension when properly adjusted. Other one will be looser and not in full tension.
- Start with first. In your case - if the non pulling cable is tight - it could keep it from allowing you to get there. Or - if the pulling cable is loose - it will not be able to overcome any tension from the non pulling cable.

Hope it helps.

- CM
Thanks, I am going to start with this.
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:02 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Jim,
if you do need to replace the cruciform, you might as well spend the extra time and money to do a complete engine rebuild. The cases have to be split to get to the Ďcross, and it isnít much more time to remove the crankshaft (in order to replace the bearings and seals). Be aware (or prepared?) that you will most likely have to replace some of the loose gears (1st through 3rd), because they are more or less a wear item. Anytime I open up an old Vespa engine, I can just about count on replacing LOTS of parts!...such as a whole new clutch assembly, crankshaft (50% of the time), 1st through 3rd gears (95% of the time), cruciform (100% of the time), bearings, seals, piston (30% of the time), new springs in the Christmas tree gear. Some people will get away with just installing a new cruciform and crank bearings/seals, but I think itís a risky move. If you want something that super reliable (and fun), itís going to cost a fair amount up front...once, not 2 or 3 times down the road.
This is, ultimately, what I plan to do over winter. I am just trying to get it ridable for a few months until the complete tear down. I do expect to replace a lot of internal parts then. Just hoping to get it to shift OK for a couple of months of light use.
Molto Verboso
Yamaha Tricity 155 Urban 2019 - MV Agusta 125 RS 1956 - Moto Guzzi Airone 250 Sport 1951
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 1524
Location: Latina (Italy)
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:22 am quote
... never seen so much rust ...
It takes a lot of courage (so much money) to restore it.
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P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:26 am quote
Attila wrote:
... never seen so much rust ...
It takes a lot of courage (so much money) to restore it.
I have chipped away a lot of the rust, and it is 90% surface rust, so it isn't so bad. I have a plan if it is though!

Thanks,
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:43 pm quote
I adjusted the selector box to perfection, and now I can shift easily through all the gears.




[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/pnzU11Myj][/URL
Problem is, 2nd shift fine, but pops into neutral every time, so the cruciform, and likely 2nd gear, are hosed.

On top of that, the clutch is intermittently super grabby to the point where the bike lurches unpredictably nearly jerking the handlebars out of my hands.

This tells me that I need to drop the motor and go through it before I can safely ride it.
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P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 165
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:24 pm quote
Nothing new on the Vespa, too much work/travel on my BMW bike and car.

But I did receive a model of it in the mail. It is not too bad, and I may repaint it when I redo the project. It fits in with the other models of cars and bikes I have owned, or own.













The two mini Vespas I have were gifts from my daughter many years ago.
Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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