First Scooter, not my first project. (Now going electric!)
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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2586
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:26 pm quote
Lol. That is hilarious. Probably a few dropped cups.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:47 pm quote
More bodywork. Ground down the POR15 sealer, then added more spot putty. Like I said, grind, sand, fill, repeat.



bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5579
Location: So Cal
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:57 am quote
Thatís a boatload of spot putty. You might consider using a finishing and blending putty instead, especially on the floorboards. Just a suggestion.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2143
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:04 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Thatís a boatload of spot putty
US-Bodge
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P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:06 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Thatís a boatload of spot putty. You might consider using a finishing and blending putty instead, especially on the floorboards. Just a suggestion.
Agreed. 95% will be sanded back off before epoxy primer is applied.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:11 pm quote
Got the battery today, thanks Raymond, and the charger, thanks Amazon, plus a fuse and the LED flasher.

Battery was 73.7 volts tested, popped it on the charger to make sure it would charge, looks OK!








These will be welded, carefully, into the swingarm for the pivot bolt.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1404
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:03 pm quote
Why such a low amperage charger? I thought you were going to get something like a 10 amp? That is going to take all night to charge.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:07 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Why such a low amperage charger? I thought you were going to get something like a 10 amp? That is going to take all night to charge.
I was talking with "experts" on esphere and they said a fast charger will prevent a full charge unless it has the ability to step down the amps as it nears full charge. Those were just too expensive for now. Maybe later.
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P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:07 pm quote


I need to do a little massaging, and fit a platform, but it will fit fine.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1404
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:18 pm quote
JimVonBaden wrote:


I need to do a little massaging, and fit a platform, but it will fit fine.
I'm interested, to see how this works for you. With the extra room you have in there I'd like to see this setup with a 84 volt battery.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:43 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
JimVonBaden wrote:


I need to do a little massaging, and fit a platform, but it will fit fine.
I'm interested, to see how this works for you. With the extra room you have in there I'd like to see this setup with a 84 volt battery.
84volt doesn't gain much. I would like to have a 50 ah 72V though, but it would need to be wedge shaped.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1404
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:11 am quote
JimVonBaden wrote:
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Why such a low amperage charger? I thought you were going to get something like a 10 amp? That is going to take all night to charge.
I was talking with "experts" on esphere and they said a fast charger will prevent a full charge unless it has the ability to step down the amps as it nears full charge. Those were just too expensive for now. Maybe later.
I didn't know you could get a charger for lithium batteries that didn't use the technique of a higher output "bulk" charge first then stepping down to a lower current. So this charger starts out at a lower current until it is charged?


What exactly is the bms doing in this setup for charging? I saw there was a balance function in the software.

Do you think something like this would work later? It's an actual lithium battery charger with the constant current or bulk phase. Then it switches to constant voltage to finish up the charge?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32848536207.html
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:23 am quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
JimVonBaden wrote:
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Why such a low amperage charger? I thought you were going to get something like a 10 amp? That is going to take all night to charge.
I was talking with "experts" on esphere and they said a fast charger will prevent a full charge unless it has the ability to step down the amps as it nears full charge. Those were just too expensive for now. Maybe later.
I didn't know you could get a charger for lithium batteries that didn't use the technique of a higher output "bulk" charge first then stepping down to a lower current. So this charger starts out at a lower current until it is charged?


What exactly is the bms doing in this setup for charging? I saw there was a balance function in the software.

Do you think something like this would work later? It's an actual lithium battery charger with the constant current or bulk phase. Then it switches to constant voltage to finish up the charge?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32848536207.html
That is essentially the same as mine. But I was told that high amp chargers will not hit 100%. Yes, there are conditioning chargers that start high and step down. Mine is just 4 amps, and was $80. It was recommended by my battery builder to get the max charge.
Member
2013 S150; 1961 VBB
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 26
Location: Dallas
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:06 am quote
I sent JVB a PM on this already, but this is the "gold standard" for lithium battery chargers. https://em3ev.com/shop/satiator/. As you can see, it's not a cheap set up, but you have many different battery "profiles" you can use to charge batteries to 80/90/100% and different charge rates for your battery. It is, hands down, the best charger I've used and I own 3 of them. You'll need the 72V version, as earlier iterations were for lower powered batteries.

I look forward to a future where batteries are a lot cheaper, but in the meantime, we have protect them to get the longest life and best performance out of them.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1404
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:50 am quote
resistor wrote:
I sent JVB a PM on this already, but this is the "gold standard" for lithium battery chargers. https://em3ev.com/shop/satiator/. As you can see, it's not a cheap set up, but you have many different battery "profiles" you can use to charge batteries to 80/90/100% and different charge rates for your battery. It is, hands down, the best charger I've used and I own 3 of them. You'll need the 72V version, as earlier iterations were for lower powered batteries.

I look forward to a future where batteries are a lot cheaper, but in the meantime, we have protect them to get the longest life and best performance out of them.
I use one of these, it has a lot of built in options and can charge many different battery styles. It can charge a 30ah 10S RC drone battery in about an hour. RC batteries use a 1C charge rate as normal use. Can charge up a battery in about an hour.

https://www.progressiverc.com/products/icharger-4010duo
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:29 pm quote
I really should consider one of these top end chargers. I have two ebikes and the coming Vespa.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:30 pm quote
Drilled my mockup swingarm for my Vespa project, then pressed in the bushing with my HF vice.





More on the battery in a few.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:40 pm quote
The battery was a very tight fit, so to remedy that I notched the frame to allow for the battery to sit low enough. I used 1" angle, and welded it in. Then more in front welded in with a support. It fits now, though still tight. I will ensure a properly set-up suspension adding 1" height and stronger springs for my fat ass. :shog

Please realize the shape of the body, and the mismatched metal thicknesses mad pretty welds not so easy. I will be sealing up the gaps to make it water tight, but not until I am done with all fabrication.











I will also add a double layer of battery shrink wrap for protection. The gap is literally 1/8" all the way around. Tight fit. I will also add 1/8" nylon base plate, and a battery strap.

This long weekend should allow me to finish fabrication, prime the body and fab the swingarm. Fingers crossed.
Hooked
1963 Vespa VBB, 1965 Allstate Cruisaire, 1974 Vespa Super, 2003 Stella 2T
Joined: 31 Jan 2016
Posts: 109
Location: Kansas City
Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:45 pm quote
You may want to treat the inside of the tunnel with something. There are tons of suggestions on the forum. Looks like there is little rust down there.

Capture.PNG

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P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:18 pm quote
Chatis wrote:
You may want to treat the inside of the tunnel with something. There are tons of suggestions on the forum. Looks like there is little rust down there.
On it. I wanted to get the fab done first.
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P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:19 pm quote
Finished the bodywork on the Vespa.


















Note the black is rust reformer, also in the tank area now.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:22 pm quote
Lots of work on the swingarm today. What a mess, and I ran out of MIG wire.

Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:54 pm quote
A few more hours in the garage and the swingarm is at 80%. I have to wat until I get the motor before mounting it and placing the shock mounts. Plus I need to relieve the drop=outs and add pinch bolts. But, overall it is near final form.

Ignore that crappy welds. They are not pretty, but they are very solid.









I didn't think the workshop could get more dirty, but I was wrong.
Hooked
1958 Allstate Super Cruisaire 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 141
Location: Philadelphia
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:32 am quote
lol, that is dirty to you? DO NOT LOOK IN MY WORKSHOP!!!
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P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:51 am quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
lol, that is dirty to you? DO NOT LOOK IN MY WORKSHOP!!!
I guess I am just picky! This is normal!


Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:11 pm quote
I couldn't take it anymore. I had to clean up to a minimum level. I couldn't find tools and I was tripping over everything.




Now back to getting it dirty again!
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:39 pm quote
Because my battery is VERY tight, I added two layers of shrink wrap to the battery for a bit of extra protection. The base will get a 1/8" sheet of nylon for abrasion protection.


Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:28 pm quote
Sealed up the battery bracket and rust treated the inner fender. It will also get undercoating.





Test fit the swingarm, fits perfectly.

Started front end disassembly for cleaning, lubing and painting.







New shocks on the way.

I think I am going to fully box the swingarm, more to keep dirt out than anything.




Almost all parts are in, except the motor, controller and rear brake. I need them to move too much further on the electric side. Still a little bodywork and fab for the handlebars to do.

Making the clean shop messy again.

Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1946
Location: Florence, OR
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:25 pm quote
That's a fine job on Fabbing and welding JVB! This is pretty cool, what you're doing - thanks for the pics. And your shop on a dirty day is still cleaner than mine on a clean day!

Keep up the good work!
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:57 am quote
Jim - very creative / good solutions on the swing arm.
My $.02.
Largest stresses will be at the zig zag and cross member.
Since you went with a square tube at cross member - you got some good surface area to weld.
The zig zag area is probably the riskiest.
I might consider a little thicker gusset if you are at all concerned on strength.
It overlaps the other sections nicely - so you have added some nice strength.
Just something to consider - might be worth making either the top one or the bottom one about double its current thickness.
If you decide you want that, one way to execute is to just double the gusset with a second piece.
Before installing it - just drill some 1/4" holes all over it - and use those to spot weld through to the first layer.
Edges can be left a hair short to avoid sitting on top of existing welds.
-CM
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:57 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Jim - very creative / good solutions on the swing arm.
My $.02.
Largest stresses will be at the zig zag and cross member.
Since you went with a square tube at cross member - you got some good surface area to weld.
The zig zag area is probably the riskiest.
I might consider a little thicker gusset if you are at all concerned on strength.
It overlaps the other sections nicely - so you have added some nice strength.
Just something to consider - might be worth making either the top one or the bottom one about double its current thickness.
If you decide you want that, one way to execute is to just double the gusset with a second piece.
Before installing it - just drill some 1/4" holes all over it - and use those to spot weld through to the first layer.
Edges can be left a hair short to avoid sitting on top of existing welds.
-CM
Interesting ideas. I plan to box the opening front and rear. This will not only keep dirt out, and rust, but firm it up even more. I may also add another box section in front of the other one inside the flats. I can weld it on around the perimeter of the visible side, and drill holes in the plates to attach it to the top and bottom plate with plug welds. Personally I think it is pretty strong as is, but it can't hurt to make it stronger. We will see if adding another plate on top is needed. Looking at a few other conversions, I am probably going overkill, buy why not?
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2974
Location: Nashville
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:24 pm quote
You overkill it so it doesn't overkill you when you're out on the road with it.

I'm loving this project, and am slightly in awe at your pace of progress.

Keep up the great work and the solid documentation.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:58 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
You overkill it so it doesn't overkill you when you're out on the road with it.

I'm loving this project, and am slightly in awe at your pace of progress.

Keep up the great work and the solid documentation.
Thanks, I tend to move pretty fast for an old fat man.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:15 am quote
Yeah! My motor and controller came in. Not bad at all.

Boxes were heavy and protected the parts well.





Useless, to me key switch. Nice quality, but I am using my stock switch.


The throttle looks like it will work, despite the ding in one of them.


Brakes came all in one piece, prebled. I will have to take it apart to install them.




And, of course, the huge, but stout Kelly Controller. I am looking forward to setting this up:


Next the QS 205 4KW 10" hub motor. Well boxed, very well.


In perfect condition, brake rotor preinstalled.






I took a few minutes to see if the brake kit would work well, and it appears it will:




This guy struggles with it:
Lastly, a question: The torque arms are very loose, moving 1/4" at the tip. You can see the slot has a significant gap:


It is barely over half the thickness of my swingarm dropouts, and they are very snug, plus will be pinch bolted. Should I still use them?

If yes, is there any reason why I can't curve them to fit my swingarm, then drill and tap it for a bolt?




Anyhow, here is today's haul, plus many parts behind them. I will lay all my parts out and label them in a future post when the last remaining pieces come in.




I don't really do unboxing videos, but this guy did one. (Same guy who had trouble with the brakes.

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1404
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:51 am quote
I can't see the video links look to be broken? Maybe post the link also.


Are you going to use the regeneration function for slowing and braking also?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2586
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:03 am quote
Wow I was not expecting a motor that was inside the hub. That's pretty cool and condensed. Curious what the total budget is at the end of this? Seems like a pretty cool build to try one day, although I could only convince myself to do it to a stella auto frame cause those engines suck, and the frames are nothing special!

For those of us who can't see embedded:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndclc4ZgXlA%3Den&fs=1
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:11 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
I can't see the video links look to be broken? Maybe post the link also.


Are you going to use the regeneration function for slowing and braking also?
This forum is the only one that has this issue with videos. You have to choose a unique way, and I always forget which one. I will take a look later.

I do plan to use regeneration. Not only will it recharge the battery a bit, but it works like a brake. Good stuff when adjusted correctly.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:17 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Wow I was not expecting a motor that was inside the hub. That's pretty cool and condensed. Curious what the total budget is at the end of this? Seems like a pretty cool build to try one day, although I could only convince myself to do it to a stella auto frame cause those engines suck, and the frames are nothing special!

For those of us who can't see embedded:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndclc4ZgXlA%3Den&fs=1
Yeah, there are gear motors that you could use a chain or belt, but the hub motors are much simpler to use. You can get them up to 12KW, 3 times mine, but though they are fast, they require huge batteries, or get a very short range. This one I hope to peak at 45-50 mph and get 35-60 miles, depending on terrain, speed and load. I expect it will be on the low end, but I do have a decent sized battery capable of 150 amps, so theoretically, with a lighter rider, I could hit 60+, or riding at 30mph I could get 60+ miles.

The budget is about $2K. The battery was $1K, and the motor was $700 shipped with the controller, brake and throttle, plus some other smaller pieces. The swingarm would likely cost $4-500 to have made. It cost me about $75.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 284
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:11 pm quote
I added another internal crossbrace, drilled and plug welded, plus perimeter welded. Then I boxed in both ends. It weighs 28 pounds. If this isn't strong enough, nothing is.


Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1979
Location: california
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:49 pm quote
Swing arm looks great.
Very nice job.
Remarkable how (relatively) affordable it all is.
Couldnít quite follow the question on the part you are considering tapping.
How else would you use it if not that way?
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