First Scooter, not my first project. (Now going electric!)
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Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1448
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:50 am quote
The black retaining plate, captures the axle ends, to help keep the motor from falling out backwards if something happens and your pinch bolts loosen up.

Without anything to tension such as a belt or chain, is there going to be a reason you need to slide the motor beyond the initial alignment and tightening? If not I would think you could install the plate after alignment bending it to fit.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:44 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swing arm looks great.
Very nice job.
Remarkable how (relatively) affordable it all is.
Couldn’t quite follow the question on the part you are considering tapping.
How else would you use it if not that way?
It is a generic part normally used on a bicycle. From advice on another forum, my swingarm is stout enough, so I shouldn't need it.

I'll post a motor mounted photo later.

Torque arm.jpg

Member
2013 S150; 1961 VBB
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 26
Location: Dallas
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:53 am quote
JVB,
Sound like it's been an early Christmas at your house for EV parts. You're probably headed this way already, but you'll save yourself a massive amount of frustration if you perform a bench test on your components off the bike.

Why that is relevant to this discussion, is that you will find there is a lot of twisting torque on these motors when power is applied. Since a hub motor is a big electromagnet, and is pretty heavy on it's own, the twisting forces are pretty great. These torque arms are not commonly seen on motorcycles, but your power curve on an EV is different than an ICE vehicle, especially at the low end.

You've noted the torque arms don't fit the spindle on the motor very well. You can machine some new ones to get a better fit. I won't tell you to use them. We all make our own decisions about our machines. But they do provide a bit of insurance at little cost. I wouldn't ride without them.

After all, summiting Everest doesn't count unless you get back down.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:30 pm quote
resistor wrote:
JVB,
Sound like it's been an early Christmas at your house for EV parts. You're probably headed this way already, but you'll save yourself a massive amount of frustration if you perform a bench test on your components off the bike.

Why that is relevant to this discussion, is that you will find there is a lot of twisting torque on these motors when power is applied. Since a hub motor is a big electromagnet, and is pretty heavy on it's own, the twisting forces are pretty great. These torque arms are not commonly seen on motorcycles, but your power curve on an EV is different than an ICE vehicle, especially at the low end.

You've noted the torque arms don't fit the spindle on the motor very well. You can machine some new ones to get a better fit. I won't tell you to use them. We all make our own decisions about our machines. But they do provide a bit of insurance at little cost. I wouldn't ride without them.

After all, summiting Everest doesn't count unless you get back down.
Hi Allen,

I see what you are saying, and am still leaving myself open to torque arms.

Here is my dropout measured, a hair under 10mm.


Plus I have added pinch bolts too.




Definitely looking for experienced opinions. More is usually better.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:42 pm quote
At this point I would be better off paying a pro to build this to my spec. I have at least 15 hours in fab, and another 10 in design.

Nonetheless, I am pretty happy with it, and learned a lot. My welding is steadily improving. It is STOUT!

The addition of the shock mount was problematic. Angle and clearance. I will have to mod the new shock when I receive it. Yes, single sided.



Then the brake mount messed with me. I ended up with the caliper upside down. Not ideal. I will be looking at it more tomorrow. Note the bolt threaded through both sides of the swingarm, and into a bushing on the caliper mount.





Lastly I made a small error in building the swingarm and did not leave enough meterial for the pinch bolts, so I added it.






Also my paint came in, Green and off white. That will, maybe, be next weekend.



Tomorrow I start working on the hydraulic brake mount and positioning of the components.
Member
2013 S150; 1961 VBB
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 26
Location: Dallas
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:31 pm quote
Wow! You've been really busy! But you're making really good progress.

Having your brake caliper upside down is a problem, but not a big problem. You'll just have to disconnect the caliper to bleed the brakes. One thing that is boxing you in a bit is is the size of your disc--it is massive! You can change that if you decide it makes your design easier.

Your swing arm is very solid looking. I can see the effort you've put into thus far. I hope you aren't getting too frustrated with the level of effort, as this is the hardest part of the build.

If you're brake set is like mine, you have way more hydraulic hose than you need. I switched to SS hose when I did the install and have been really happy with it. My brake is handlebar mounted, but if you chose to continue to use the foot petal, you would use a remote master cylinder and hardly any hydraulic hose.

Anyway, looking really good so far!
Member
2013 S150; 1961 VBB
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 26
Location: Dallas
Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:22 pm quote
JVB,

One thing I forgot to mention--as long as you're in there and using a single shock, this is a very nice upgrade: https://www.claussstudios.com/store/p540/Vespa_Rally_P200_PX200_HD___P125_Stella_Super_Sprint_GL150__GS160___SS180____Shock_to_Frame_Mount_.html.
The VBB, especially bodge VBB's, had a weak spot in the upper shock mount (turns out the scooter wasn't envisioned to transport a family of four). This adds some additional structure to a weak point and is easiest to install when your scooter is under construction. Just a thought...
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:38 pm quote
resistor wrote:
Wow! You've been really busy! But you're making really good progress.

Having your brake caliper upside down is a problem, but not a big problem. You'll just have to disconnect the caliper to bleed the brakes. One thing that is boxing you in a bit is is the size of your disc--it is massive! You can change that if you decide it makes your design easier.

Your swing arm is very solid looking. I can see the effort you've put into thus far. I hope you aren't getting too frustrated with the level of effort, as this is the hardest part of the build.

If you're brake set is like mine, you have way more hydraulic hose than you need. I switched to SS hose when I did the install and have been really happy with it. My brake is handlebar mounted, but if you chose to continue to use the foot petal, you would use a remote master cylinder and hardly any hydraulic hose.

Anyway, looking really good so far!
Thanks, the swingarm has been a chore, but I like a challenge.

As for the brake, it is going to be left handlebar mounted, so that should be fun. I may need a custom made brake line to feed it through the headset. Still not sure if I can make it upright, but it isn't that big a deal to remove it for bleeding.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:41 pm quote
resistor wrote:
JVB,

One thing I forgot to mention--as long as you're in there and using a single shock, this is a very nice upgrade: https://www.claussstudios.com/store/p540/Vespa_Rally_P200_PX200_HD___P125_Stella_Super_Sprint_GL150__GS160___SS180____Shock_to_Frame_Mount_.html.
The VBB, especially bodge VBB's, had a weak spot in the upper shock mount (turns out the scooter wasn't envisioned to transport a family of four). This adds some additional structure to a weak point and is easiest to install when your scooter is under construction. Just a thought...
The link doesn't work. Can you refine it?
Member
2013 S150; 1961 VBB
Joined: 18 Feb 2019
Posts: 26
Location: Dallas
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Sun Jan 24, 2021 12:05 am quote
JVB - looking good.
Your welding is transitioning from ugly and questionable to just plane ugly (and strong...)
Nice!
Nothing like actually having to make something to improve skills.


Looks like the pinch bolt may also serve as a safety against catastrophic wheel issues.
Im still struggling to understand how that additional "torque" piece adds any strength or value in your application - but it seams you are not planning on using it in any event.

One thing that did catch my eye was the way the axle doesn't really rest on the swing arm slot. Any concerns here? (green arrow points at the only portion that seams to sit on the slot). Is that the norm?

QNiQ7d.jpg

Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:37 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
JVB - looking good.
Your welding is transitioning from ugly and questionable to just plane ugly (and strong...)
Nice!
Nothing like actually having to make something to improve skills.


Looks like the pinch bolt may also serve as a safety against catastrophic wheel issues.
Im still struggling to understand how that additional "torque" piece adds any strength or value in your application - but it seams you are not planning on using it in any event.

One thing that did catch my eye was the way the axle doesn't really rest on the swing arm slot. Any concerns here? (green arrow points at the only portion that seams to sit on the slot). Is that the norm?
I definitely won't win awards for pretty welds, thank doG for grinders. But it is getting stronger. That flat in even with the flats on the threads, but not part of them, so you have to put the flats in the drop out. See photo.


I don't know if this is normal, or extra with the higher wattage motors.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:52 am quote
Ahh.
Looks good!
If that extra black piece is just some kind of doubler for the swing arm - I would venture that you have created plenty of meat in its replacement.

The welds - don’t look “cold” anymore. Much more solid.

Keep pics coming.
Great documenting and fun to watch.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1448
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:32 am quote
resistor wrote:
Wow! You've been really busy! But you're making really good progress.

Having your brake caliper upside down is a problem, but not a big problem. You'll just have to disconnect the caliper to bleed the brakes. One thing that is boxing you in a bit is is the size of your disc--it is massive! You can change that if you decide it makes your design easier.

Your swing arm is very solid looking. I can see the effort you've put into thus far. I hope you aren't getting too frustrated with the level of effort, as this is the hardest part of the build.

If you're brake set is like mine, you have way more hydraulic hose than you need. I switched to SS hose when I did the install and have been really happy with it. My brake is handlebar mounted, but if you chose to continue to use the foot petal, you would use a remote master cylinder and hardly any hydraulic hose.

Anyway, looking really good so far!
I agree if upside down is the only issue, turn it upright slide it over the disk, bleed it and reinstall. Manufacturers "bench" bleed them just like you received yours to ensure the system works.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:07 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Ahh.
Looks good!
If that extra black piece is just some kind of doubler for the swing arm - I would venture that you have created plenty of meat in its replacement.

The welds - don’t look “cold” anymore. Much more solid.

Keep pics coming.
Great documenting and fun to watch.
Thanks, I am finally getting the feel for setting the temp and wire speed. Of course I ran out of Argon today.

Got a bunch more done, so far, but I am not done for the day.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jan 24, 2021 11:08 am quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
resistor wrote:
Wow! You've been really busy! But you're making really good progress.

Having your brake caliper upside down is a problem, but not a big problem. You'll just have to disconnect the caliper to bleed the brakes. One thing that is boxing you in a bit is is the size of your disc--it is massive! You can change that if you decide it makes your design easier.

Your swing arm is very solid looking. I can see the effort you've put into thus far. I hope you aren't getting too frustrated with the level of effort, as this is the hardest part of the build.

If you're brake set is like mine, you have way more hydraulic hose than you need. I switched to SS hose when I did the install and have been really happy with it. My brake is handlebar mounted, but if you chose to continue to use the foot petal, you would use a remote master cylinder and hardly any hydraulic hose.

Anyway, looking really good so far!
I agree if upside down is the only issue, turn it upright slide it over the disk, bleed it and reinstall. Manufacturers "bench" bleed them just like you received yours to ensure the system works.
Thanks, that is the plan.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:33 pm quote
Modded the handlebars to fit the rear brake lever and master cylinder, and the electronic throttle. The Vespa had a shifter that you activated by rotating the left bar to select a gear, while pulling the clutch at the same time. Kinda odd, but you get used to it. The throttle was a cable, and the bar was too large to fit the electronic throttle, so I had to fit a smaller bar. Then both bars needed to be staked into the headset to the would not move or come out.










Then I rubber undercoated the inside of the fender and underside of the leg shield.



Next I started working on positioning of the major components. I think the Kelly Controller will fit perfectly where the battery was, and the 12V DC/DC converter will fit next to it. Most of the other components will go inside the fuel tank area.

Finally I installed the tire and tube on the hub motor. It was a bit of a pain. I would not want to do this on the road. My only concern is the valve stem is contacting the hub. I need to find a way to move it so that it doesn't wear through and cause a flat.

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:18 pm quote
Cool.
I would think you could relieve the hub just a hair right there with a Dremel -so that it didn't touch. Assume it is aluminum and fairly easy to grind back if you can access.
Loving the pics.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:46 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Cool.
I would think you could relieve the hub just a hair right there with a Dremel -so that it didn't touch. Assume it is aluminum and fairly easy to grind back if you can access.
Loving the pics.
That is an option, though I need to study it more. I may just cover it in shrink wrap, 2 layers. Centrifugal force should pull it away from the hub when moving.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:32 pm quote
Fixed a couple of issues. Shrink wrapped the valve stem. It isn't really tight on the hub, so this should be good. I also chopped off a bunch of the shock mount to make it less bulky, then boxed it in.




Used rust reformer on the inside of the side cowls and front fender.




Received and checked the fit on the new LED headlight.



Cleaned the front axle, brakes and centerstand.



And from now on I am working towards paint next weekend, so lots of sanding, cleaning, sanding, touch up spot putty, sanding, and then primer, sanding, and paint.



Parting shot:
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:23 pm quote
Sanded down everything that will be painted with 400 grit paper. Cleaned up, again, and sorted all the conversion parts to the back workbench.


That is about $1900 in parts there. A couple small items missing.
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5653
Location: So Cal
Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:38 pm quote
Did you pre-fit the floor rails? Best to do it now, before paint.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:41 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Did you pre-fit the floor rails? Best to do it now, before paint.
I had not. I "ASSumed" that they would fit since they came off the scooter, but I will now.

Thanks for the heads-up!
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:06 pm quote
More paint prep. I set up my $50 paint booth, and am working my way to paint on Friday and Saturday.




At the advice of a Vespa pro, I checked to make sure my floor board strips will still fit. Took some tweaking to get them there.


I also received my new shocks;
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 3058
Location: Nashville
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:15 pm quote
I never thought of just ordering a cheap tent like that. That's awesome!

I was JUST pondering how I'd rig up my White Trash Paint Booth as I get psyched up to start the body work for my GL
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:34 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
I never thought of just ordering a cheap tent like that. That's awesome!

I was JUST pondering how I'd rig up my White Trash Paint Booth as I get psyched up to start the body work for my GL
It works surprisingly well, plus keeps out the dust and minimizes the mess in the garage.


Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:42 pm quote
Set up, then cleaned, and cleaned, and cleaned. Then cleaned some more. Tomorrow, before I prime, I will clean again.

Basically ready!






Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 29, 2021 1:35 pm quote
OK, got a lot of the fun stuff done today. First cleaned and tacked off the pieces getting primed.







Then sanded all the parts going green, cleaned, cleaned again, tacked them, and returned them to the booth for paint. 4 coats of paint over the next 45 minutes and I was done.









They came out very nice. Good coverage, nice shine. I will leave them overnight, then bring in the body, which will get painted white. I am still sanding on it in the other room in prep.

Oh yeah, painted with single stage acrylic enamel and a Harbor Freight $15 paint gun.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2660
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:55 pm quote
That's amazing and fast work of it! One thing to note that I've seen i think in a scooter West video.. you should tape off the headset bottom fork tube slot and also the slots for the handlebar tubes. They said when you paint them without masking like you've done, you need to go back and sand the paint off the inner surface of those slots so that the handlebar tubes and fork tube fits and slides properly. Quick work to solve that though as you've done plenty of sanding lately!

Btw how's the durability of that single stage acrylic? Looks like you got a nice smooth glossy overcoat from it. Hopefully it's durable! Stella paint chips if you look at it wrong.
Hooked
1958 Allstate Super Cruisaire 2005 70cc Yamaha Vino
Joined: 23 Aug 2020
Posts: 220
Location: Philadelphia
Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:46 pm quote
I saw that in the scooter west video too.


Looking amazing. And I'm jealous at how quick you are.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:00 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
That's amazing and fast work of it! One thing to note that I've seen i think in a scooter West video.. you should tape off the headset bottom fork tube slot and also the slots for the handlebar tubes. They said when you paint them without masking like you've done, you need to go back and sand the paint off the inner surface of those slots so that the handlebar tubes and fork tube fits and slides properly. Quick work to solve that though as you've done plenty of sanding lately!

Btw how's the durability of that single stage acrylic? Looks like you got a nice smooth glossy overcoat from it. Hopefully it's durable! Stella paint chips if you look at it wrong.
For the handlebars, it is a non issue. Mine are fixed due to the replacement of the throttle with an electronic throttle, and there is no shifter, so that side is fixed too. I will need to sand them just to get them in most likely, but should be fast to do.

I think it looks good so far.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:01 pm quote
FridayMatinee wrote:
I saw that in the scooter west video too.


Looking amazing. And I'm jealous at how quick you are.
Seems fast, but lots of hours to prep.
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5653
Location: So Cal
Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:14 pm quote
Mmmm. Nice. Can almost smell it.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:59 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Mmmm. Nice. Can almost smell it.
Sadly, even with a a good proper mask, a shower, and lots of time away from it, so can I!
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:50 pm quote
Quote:
Sadly, even with a a good proper mask, a shower, and lots of time away from it, so can I!
Ha.
Looks good Jim.
Very cool custom build.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 225
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1448
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:08 am quote
JimVonBaden wrote:
OK, got a lot of the fun stuff done today. First cleaned and tacked off the pieces getting primed.







Then sanded all the parts going green, cleaned, cleaned again, tacked them, and returned them to the booth for paint. 4 coats of paint over the next 45 minutes and I was done.









They came out very nice. Good coverage, nice shine. I will leave them overnight, then bring in the body, which will get painted white. I am still sanding on it in the other room in prep.

Oh yeah, painted with single stage acrylic enamel and a Harbor Freight $15 paint gun.
White body, nice I like two tone motorcycles and scooters.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:21 pm quote
Pulled all the green parts into the workshop to make room for the white body paint.



Pretty green in the sun.



Put on four coats of white paint. It came out OK, but there are some spots I hope I can buff out.

Painted the swingarm white too.



The body has a nice shine.






Got everything cleaned up and was about to take down the tent/booth, when I realized I missed the speedo surround.

Back out with the gun and mixed up some more green.

Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:53 pm quote
Good catch! It's looking real nice.
Hooked
P125x (4KW Hub Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 338
Location: Alexandria, VA
Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:44 pm quote
Thanks! I am happy with it overall.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:45 pm quote
does your wife know what you're doing with her garden tea party tent?
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