Restoring rusty engines.. junk or salvageable?
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Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1127
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:28 pm quote
Is it possible to salvage rusty engine internal parts by removing rust with vinegar or is this just a waste of time and the parts should be replaced with new or non damaged parts? Trying to decide if this is a relatively easy and cheap thing to deal with for my first restoration or if it would end up being just added costs for replacing any parts that are too rusted out.

I'm looking for a big project like this to tackle, just not sure if this type of rust should be a big concern or not. Would preferably like to reuse as much original parts to this engine as possible.

IMG_6216 2.jpeg
Is the clutch cog and attached plate salvageable with vinegar? individual plates will be replaced.

00Y0Y_ikIuSNa61Hh_1200x900.jpg
what about the gears and primary drive? assuming from this, the carb or elements of it might be too far gone?

Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3283
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:25 am quote
Iíd replace everything. Thereís no telling what condition things will be in after the rust treatment. Iím concerned there will be a bit of slop in the meshing gears/Cush/primary since some steel will be lost.

Intact old clutches are easy to find. The Cush drive and gears will cost a little bit more to find used but someoneís got them squirreled away for your scoot.

If you still want to dive down the rabbit hole Iíd look for something stronger than vinegar. Check out YouTube for ideas.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1213
Location: UK (South East)
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:03 am quote
It's a large block motor (Rally/P200?), so definitely worth salvaging, even just for the cases. In the UK they are sought after. The top end would usually be changed for some sort of kit and the crank would be changed for a long stroke by many people. Many of the internals (gears etc.) can be found in great secondhand condition, often from much later PX/EFL motors. You could built a very nice motor.
Member
1972 Vespa Rally 180, Piaggio LT 150
Joined: 28 Mar 2012
Posts: 49
Location: Austin, TX
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:11 am quote
MJRally wrote:
If you still want to dive down the rabbit hole Iíd look for something stronger than vinegar. Check out YouTube for ideas.
Muriatic Acid is the way to go to remove rust. A few hours soak and you should be back to bare metal.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1127
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:33 am quote
swa45 wrote:
It's a large block motor (Rally/P200?), so definitely worth salvaging, even just for the cases. In the UK they are sought after. The top end would usually be changed for some sort of kit and the crank would be changed for a long stroke by many people. Many of the internals (gears etc.) can be found in great secondhand condition, often from much later PX/EFL motors. You could built a very nice motor.
Awesome! Will update this if and when i progress further.
Hooked
Vespa
Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 381
Location: US
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:03 pm quote
Yep. I"m a believer of original parts. I would try my best to salvage any I can down to nuts and bolts. Buy a few gallons of concentrated vinegar from Home Depot and that will do the trick.

I would soak the gears and stuff like an hour or so and scrub it out with metal brush.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5488
Location: Indo
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:38 pm quote
A week in vinegar will do the magic, althouh clutch plate ang seal gotta go
Moderator
PX150 and 1 drowned P200,
Joined: 28 May 2008
Posts: 3880
Location: Hustletown, TX
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:41 pm quote
on the off chance...
I'm looking for a set of p200 cases if you decide the engine work is too much or go in another direction.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1127
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:13 pm quote
Re: on the off chance...
Birdsnest wrote:
I'm looking for a set of p200 cases if you decide the engine work is too much or go in another direction.
swa45 wrote:
It's a large block motor (Rally/P200?), so definitely worth salvaging, even just for the cases. In the UK they are sought after. The top end would usually be changed for some sort of kit and the crank would be changed for a long stroke by many people. Many of the internals (gears etc.) can be found in great secondhand condition, often from much later PX/EFL motors. You could built a very nice motor.
I did end up picking up this P200E today! Unfortunately, I am keeping it to restore the whole thing back to its former glory. Almost everything still together!

My project thread for this:
http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2317106

Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1127
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:26 pm quote
koenig blues wrote:
A week in vinegar will do the magic, althouh clutch plate ang seal gotta go
I will definitely be trying this on some of these parts soon!
Enthusiast
PX 200 E [+] and some old stuff
Joined: 28 Dec 2005
Posts: 80
Location: Germany, Bavaria (BY)
Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:17 am quote
swa45 wrote:
It's a large block motor (Rally/P200?), so definitely worth salvaging, even just for the cases. In the UK they are sought after. The top end would usually be changed for some sort of kit and the crank would be changed for a long stroke by many people. Many of the internals (gears etc.) can be found in great secondhand condition, often from much later PX/EFL motors. You could built a very nice motor.
They are sought after in Germany and Italy too and nowadays very expensive. Save it! Maybe, the gearing it still good, check it and eventually give it a try, if the rust is not to bad and only on the surface.

Vinegar works magic on rust.

A very nice porject P200! Please keep and save the original paint.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1127
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed May 01, 2019 6:21 pm quote
efendi wrote:
swa45 wrote:
It's a large block motor (Rally/P200?), so definitely worth salvaging, even just for the cases. In the UK they are sought after. The top end would usually be changed for some sort of kit and the crank would be changed for a long stroke by many people. Many of the internals (gears etc.) can be found in great secondhand condition, often from much later PX/EFL motors. You could built a very nice motor.
They are sought after in Germany and Italy too and nowadays very expensive. Save it! Maybe, the gearing it still good, check it and eventually give it a try, if the rust is not to bad and only on the surface.

Vinegar works magic on rust.

A very nice porject P200! Please keep and save the original paint.
The bucket of water and rusted parts I picked up from the guy has turned into a bucket of vinegar and parts that very quickly cleared up! I've left the parts in there for 2 days now and the bucket is burping every so often. Gonna take everything out and scrub it all down and wash it off tomorrow. Was amazed that within 2 minutes after dropping one of those clutch plates into the bucket of vinegar, it started to look clear! Don't worry, I will be replacing the clutch plates.. just threw them in as a test to see how fast the vinegar would work.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1314
Location: Florence, OR
Wed May 01, 2019 8:43 pm quote
Vinegar works pretty sweet, just not too fast. I soaked an entire seat in a makeshift tub for a couple of days and it took off all the rust out of the springs. It was like a miracle!

Your project is going to be fun to watch. I'm excited to see it all come together. Thanks for sharing the pics...
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Thu May 09, 2019 10:31 pm quote
I had a gearhead buddy that used electrolysis to remove rust from antique car parts. Worked like magic.

Instructions here.

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1825

Thu May 09, 2019 11:55 pm quote
macgerk77 wrote:
I had a gearhead buddy that used electrolysis to remove rust from antique car parts. Worked like magic.

Instructions here.

http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp
I did that same process to rusty Lammy tank. It worked very well.
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Fri May 10, 2019 1:31 am quote
Yeah it was nuts how well it worked. Like, "POOF! SCIENCE!"
Addicted
P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 588
Location: Fresno, CA
Sat May 11, 2019 6:56 pm quote
I used electrolysis and it worked very well.

motor.JPG

Motor2.JPG

Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Sun May 12, 2019 12:33 am quote
Damn dude. That's amazing.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7331
Location: seattle/athens
Sun May 12, 2019 2:45 am quote

That's some nice clean up! But are those all studs rather than standard case bolts? Seems like otherwise you'd remove them and any other steel or brass you could for the electrolysis bath.
Addicted
P125X, P200E
Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 588
Location: Fresno, CA
Sun May 12, 2019 9:42 am quote
Honestly Voodoo, that was a number of years ago and I don't remember all the details. There was, of course, more than electrolysis involved in the cleanup including a lot of work with a wire brush, but the electrolysis was a major part of it.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1127
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun May 12, 2019 10:53 am quote
All good information! I'll have to try that another time. Ive gone the vinegar route this time with everything in vinegar for the past 2 weeks.
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