Tuning an Lml 150: shopping list
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Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Sat May 11, 2019 11:42 pm quote
So I have an Lml 150 engine laying around... It's already set up for 8" wheels, so I figured I'd do some performance modding over the summer and put it in my 65 Allstate.

Right now I'm at the planning phase, just trying to figure out everything I need, and how much it's all going to set me back. I'm already expecting to spend a veritable pile of cash, so no surprises there. I have a fairly basic understanding of these engines, and zero experience with performance tuning, so expect some really dumb questions to be littering this post
Feel free to take cheap shots at me or suggest alternatives as you see fit

Before anyone asks, what I'm wanting out of the engine is to be able to hit 65+ mph and get there as quickly as possible. If I could make a lot of noise and look like a complete maniac whilst doing so, that'd be a bonus.

1) Basic stuff

I'll be replacing seals, bearings, and gaskets, obviously. Several years back I took a P200 to the shop to have seals replaced and the owner told me that the reason the seal had failed was that the PO had installed a seal for an Lml engine into the piaggio case. Is there such a thing as an Lml specific seal? I've never heard of that since...

I am also gonna need an engine stand for this project. Saw this one on Scooter Mercato. I like that it doesn't need to be bolted to a work bench. Anyone out there have any experience with it?

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Other-Helpful-Tools/STERLING-6000

2) Cylinder

I'm planning on going with the Malossi 166. Guy that ran the shop I frequented swore by them, and the folks I hung with at rallies seemed to corroborate his opinion. I'd be breaking out the Dremel and matching the ports on the case to the kit.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+malossi+mk+iii+_10040000

3) Crankshaft

Gonna need a more performance oriented crank, so I was looking at this one

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/flowed+crankshaft+serie+pro+_46020000

4) Exhaust

Going with a full on expansion chamber. Wondering if ground clearance is going to be an issue with the 8in wheels. Also wondering if mounting the pipe to a '65 frame is going to be problematic. Anyway, these are the two pipes I was looking at.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+rz+evo+2000+_25010000

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+sip+performance_20120ca

5) Intake

From what I understand, the stock Lml Reed valve is optimized for fuel economy rather than performance, so that's gonna need to go. Does this seem like an appropriate replacement? Will I have issues getting the cowl over the manifold?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/carburettor+kit+malossi+phbh_16158950

6) Clutch

Looking at this one. Seems pretty heavy duty. I'm confused though because it comes in 20, 21, 22, 23, and 24 tooth models. How exactly does one go about determining which is the right one for their build?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/~/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+ultrastr_93403300

7) Gears

The motor currently has stock 10in gearing, so replacing those was in the cards anyhow. I was going to replace them with the gear stack for an 8" Super, back before I wrecked the bike this motor was originally in. For this application, I really have no idea what I should be looking at. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Well that's all I can think of for now. As you can see, I'm pretty far outta my element here. I'm fully expecting to break some things, blow up some other things, and just generally make myself miserable before I get where I want to be with this. I thought about outsourcing the work, but I'm not going to learn anything that way, and ultimately I'd be less satisfied with the results.

Cheers.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1279
Location: London UK
Sun May 12, 2019 3:33 am quote
The Malossi 166 was good until the new Malossi 177 came along.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+malossi+mhr+_31171630

Fit a 60mm crank with that and you have a real engine.
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 945
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun May 12, 2019 4:25 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
The Malossi 166 was good until the new Malossi 177 came along.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+malossi+mhr+_31171630

Fit a 60mm crank with that and you have a real engine.
I agree with Jack here; go with the aluminum 177.

You can run a full expansion on 8” wheels, but it will scrape from time to time.

Cranks- consider Pinasco, Bgm, kingWelle based on quality. I do think Mazz. Cranks are suffering quality TBH.

Gearing, I would probably go for 8% Malossi or BGM kit here. There may be a DRT on the market. Both the Malossi and BGM provide you with the clutch drive and primary drive gears.

Clutch, Pinasco 7 spring Power or go fully CNC’ed with BGM (MMW).

Ignition, well. . . Any of the variable timing ignitions.


About the seal. Unless the guy was really saying a low quality seal was installed and failed, his statement does not make sense. I am going with the prior. Just pick up a set of Corteco and you will be fine.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4681
Location: So Cal
Sun May 12, 2019 7:01 am quote
As for gearing, a 23 tooth clutch cog, 64 tooth primary, Super gearbox, on 8” wheels at 7500rpm will be a machine to be reckoned with.

Like Mr. Gick says, a full on expansion pipe is the only question mark. They all seem to be made for 10” bikes and will probably scape in turns. The rest is very doable.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1467

Sun May 12, 2019 7:46 am quote
I'm going to x2 on may things that Glick said. A variable ignition would be best. Do make sure you get a high quality clutch. But on the same note, the heavier the clutch weighs, the more stress will be put on your crankshaft. Go DRT...if they do make the gears you're after, it's pretty amazing what a close ratio gear stack will do to a tuned engine. Also get a hardened cruciform to go with it. I've had excellent results with that strong shift cross in both my stock and tuned scooters. A right hand drop exhaust won't ground out like a left hand will, so you're kinda limited there. I can't say about much of the other parts though.

For gearing, you can play around with the gearing calculator over at scooterhelp.com. http://scooterhelp.com/tuning/vespa.gear.calc.html

About the seal...I know of a few guys who are opposed to the metal backed Corteco clutch side seal and much prefer the rubber backed one, but it still sounds like that a low quality seal was installed in that 200 case.

The only thing you didn't mention was a front disc brake and a new damper/shock. With all the new speed that you get, you'll want a way to rein it in.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4681
Location: So Cal
Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am quote
As long as we’re spending your money, might as well put some tubeless rims and sticky tires on your list too.


https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rim+tubeless+sip+for+vespa+_83016000

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tyre+heidenau+k75+_80204003
Addicted
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 945
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Sun May 12, 2019 3:44 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
About the seal...I know of a few guys who are opposed to the metal backed Corteco clutch side seal and much prefer the rubber backed one, but it still sounds like that a low quality seal was installed in that 200 in.
I have never installed a metal seal, only the blue rubber Corteco set from widebody to Px EFL engines. I have never had a problem with them.

I remember probably 10-15 years ago using an Indian clutch side seal that had a yellow side to it that failed.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6885
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun May 12, 2019 6:56 pm quote
Go the 177, you have a choice of Sport and MHR.

These things put out a LOT of power, you may need to look again at your primary to be sure you're not maxxing out the revs at 40mph. My preferred is this one with the visual element -
http://gearingcalc.free.fr/

That Malossi intake is a good choice, the rubber manifold puts the carb nice and low... exactly what you need for your allstate with limited real estate in that area.
Note that as it comes it won't fit your LML case. You need to make a flat plate to cover the intake area of the case, with a hole in it to match the reed block. I think the two M7 studs or bolts (whichever you decide to use) can go through the plate, the 2 M6 help hold the plate down. I've done it on the BGM, Gt6MK3 has done it on his MHR177. Works a treat and a better solution I think than buying a dedicated MMW reed block for LML.
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Sun May 12, 2019 10:51 pm quote
Sorry I didn't get back sooner... I'm working 55+ hrs a week throwing freight w/ a 2 1/2 hour round trip daily commute. Hardly have time to breathe...
GickSpeed wrote:
You can run a full expansion on 8” wheels, but it will scrape from time to time.

Cranks- consider Pinasco, Bgm, kingWelle based on quality. I do think Mazz. Cranks are suffering quality TBH.


Ignition, well. . . Any of the variable timing ignitions.

You think the road xl might be a better option for exhaust? Not an expansion chamber, but that thing looks like it's got one hell of a header.

I'll check out those cranks. As far as ignition goes, I was planning on going with malossi's VesPower. Had a buddy that was pretty pleased with his.
whodatschrome wrote:
The only thing you didn't mention was a front disc brake and a new damper/shock. With all the new speed that you get, you'll want a way to rein it in.
I was thinking bout going w/ the pinasco drum, and swapping in my VNB front fork w/ stoffi spring and new dampener.
Ginch wrote:
That Malossi intake is a good choice.
Well at least I got that one right.

Is there a thread on here you can think of that references mounting it up?
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
About the seal...I know of a few guys who are opposed to the metal backed Corteco clutch side seal and much prefer the rubber backed one, but it still sounds like that a low quality seal was installed in that 200 case.
This sounds exactly like what the tech described. He said it had a metal edge or metal back or some shit. This was like 6 years ago back when I had no idea what a seal even did (other than fail and fuck up my bike).
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6885
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon May 13, 2019 2:47 pm quote
macgerk77 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
That Malossi intake is a good choice.
Well at least I got that one right.

Is there a thread on here you can think of that references mounting it up?
No... everyone goes for the MMW.
But the Malossi setup is so low, it's going to be about as easy as you can get to fit under that side cowl. Can't seem to find a pic just now but will keep my eyes open.

Here's mine - first two pics only.

Conversion plate.jpg
This is the actual shape of the reed block outlet! MMW1

crank to case.jpg
Remind me to cut that gasket away...

Preparazione Vespa PX LML Star 3.jpg
This one is not mine! But shows how far you can go.



Last edited by Ginch on Mon May 13, 2019 7:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6885
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon May 13, 2019 6:59 pm quote
In the second picture above I have removed a bit of material so that there will be flow whether the crank (bell type in mine) is blocking the path or not.
This guy goes to an extreme by actually relocating the case stud upwards, which means that he can achieve what you see in the bottom picture. It's impressive. Malossi's new reed case (VR-One, 200 only) also use this arrangement.
https://tinyurl.com/y5ps87lb

Here's the reed kit. You can see the gasket which gives you the shape to cut out of your plate, using the stud or bolt locations as a guide.

Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Mon May 13, 2019 7:17 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
No... everyone goes for the MMW.
But the Malossi setup is so low, it's going to be about as easy as you can get to fit under that side cowl. Can't seem to find a pic just now but will keep my eyes open.

Here's mine - first two pics only.
I actually looked at the MMW on SIP but it looked kinda tall.

What thickness steel did you use for the adaptor plate? I have a cousin that works in a machine shop. I could probably get him to fab me up something like that. Thx for the pics, tho. Gives me something of an idea of what I'm up against.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6885
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue May 14, 2019 12:30 am quote
It's aluminum. About 2mm thick I think? I would have said it doesn't need to be thick but Craig had leaking issues with his and ended up a fair bit thicker than mine, maybe 4mm? But with some decent sealer it shouldn't be a problem.

Found a pic! If you used a Snakehead it would be even lower.
This belongs to my friend - Jimscoot here on the forum - and I've ridden it. Frigging amzing power, and he says since I rode it he's improved the jetting way more.
I rode an MHR 221 half an hour later, and the 177 was not as much slower as you'd imagine.
Quote:
Malossi MHR177 57mm
Serie pro flowed reed valve crank
Malossi 30mm phbh carb with reed valve
Matched ported etc
Vespower variable ignition 1.2kg flywheel
Ngk BR9eix
Cosa 22tooth primary upgear
Scooter and service newline


Jamie's PX.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6886
Location: seattle/athens
Tue May 14, 2019 3:01 am quote
^^^ Now that is a fine looking scooter! Somebody with a good eye and a few bucks loves their Vespa. Thanks for posting it.
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6885
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 15, 2019 2:25 pm quote
Have a look at the SIP shock before you decide...that and a stock spring seem to be the go-to best option currently available. There's a bit of info here on the forum, this is one - Fronk shock

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/shock+absorber+sip+performance+_78000fbl
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
Joined: 08 May 2012
Posts: 1502
Location: Salem OR Sucks
Wed May 15, 2019 7:01 pm quote
Ok, I'll defer to the general consensus then...
I had read Vader saying in a different thread that the bgm shock paired w/ the 33% stiffer spring was a pretty harsh ride.
Thx for your continuing feedback, Ginch.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1467

Wed May 15, 2019 8:11 pm quote
macgerk77 wrote:
Ok, I'll defer to the general consensus then...
I had read Vader saying in a different thread that the bgm shock paired w/ the 33% stiffer spring was a pretty harsh ride.
Thx for your continuing feedback, Ginch.
This is for a different application since my damper and spring are one unit, but I've tried a few different performance shocks on different scoots, so I don't see how it would be different with yours (though it might be). I weigh in at 155lbs. The front and rear Bitubos on both my P200 and T5 are a harsh ride. The YSS front shock on my PXXL is a very stiff ride. The front "lowered" Bitubo and the rear BGM on my pink PK200 is a very stiff ride. The upgraded progressive springs on my Lammy are a stiff ride. The stock front and rear shocks on my PX200 are very comfortable. The damping and rebound also seem just about perfect on the stock suspension as well. I'm beginning to think that aftermarket suspension companies might just make a fancy looking shock body, install an overly heavy rated spring, then slap a large price tag on it. Go figure...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6885
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu May 16, 2019 4:38 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
macgerk77 wrote:
Ok, I'll defer to the general consensus then...
I had read Vader saying in a different thread that the bgm shock paired w/ the 33% stiffer spring was a pretty harsh ride.
Thx for your continuing feedback, Ginch.
This is for a different application since my damper and spring are one unit, but I've tried a few different performance shocks on different scoots, so I don't see how it would be different with yours (though it might be). I weigh in at 155lbs. The front and rear Bitubos on both my P200 and T5 are a harsh ride. The YSS front shock on my PXXL is a very stiff ride. The front "lowered" Bitubo and the rear BGM on my pink PK200 is a very stiff ride. The upgraded progressive springs on my Lammy are a stiff ride. The stock front and rear shocks on my PX200 are very comfortable. The damping and rebound also seem just about perfect on the stock suspension as well. I'm beginning to think that aftermarket suspension companies might just make a fancy looking shock body, install an overly heavy rated spring, then slap a large price tag on it. Go figure...
You could be right, however when it comes to the pre-P front suspension, absolutely anything is better than stock... that bottomless dive as you gently apply the brake... it's frightening!
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