Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue May 14, 2019 6:07 pm quote
Already replaced the split rims with sip tubeless rims and have slowly started to upgrade a few things to get more speed over the 55-56 mph max. Last summer I installed a SIP Road XL pipe which helped me get up to about 58-59 mph with 6500-7000 rpms. Last fall I replaced the stock reeds with boyesen reeds to get a little better throttle response.

Currently prepping a Malossi 166 kit to slap on pnp to start this summer. First time doing this. I chamfered the ports and already made a mistake by slipping and nicking the cylinder wall. DAMMIT! Other than that I was pretty steady and smooth with the dremel. Should have stuck with the hand file for the small transfer ports because they are hard to reach. The scratches did not seem very deep so I figured I would attempt to fix it.

I decided to try to salvage the nicks by using polishing cream and a buffing bit on the dremel. That only shined it up, didn't remove the nicks, so I then sanded them out 1000 grit and then re-honed the bore. I think it looks good and hopefully this does not ruin compression or cause any issues. If this is wrong.. feel free to criticize me. I am just going full speed ahead and learning from mistakes as they happen.

Next is to sand the head and cylinder top absolute flat.

Using FMP notes, I am gonna try to hit these timing points using base gasket/head gasket and shaping the exhaust port to hit desired mark:

Exhaust time: 176 degrees
Transfer time: 120 degrees
Blowdown: 28 degrees

Other upgrades acquired and waiting to be installed:

22T clutch upgear
dellorto SIP 24/24 Carb

Once I get it set up and running good, I'll leave it like this until next winter when I rebuild the engine, replace the crank and match the cases if it does not provide enough as is.

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two nicks right on the bridge between transfer ports. This is after polishing cream/buff wheel.

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all the buffing wheel did was make the nicks shiny and smooth.

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tiny sandpaper slices with a twitchy finger.

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re-honed with a cheap ass harbor freight tool.

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Tue May 14, 2019 11:55 pm quote
Looks like it will be ok. Will be worth a try and if not there is the re-bore option (with a better piston). Didn't need to sand it really just the hone would have done.

Be very accurate when going for those porting durations. They should pull 22/68 gearing, as long as you don't go over. 166 squish needs to be no more than 1.00mm.

As you are already finding out, set up is everything. Not just the amount of power that comes from a correct set up carb but the riding comfort of no bogging and easy starting.
Member
Stella
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 24
Location: USA
Wed May 15, 2019 3:14 am quote
This should be fun. Just the SIP Road Sport and jetting got mine to get well over the 55 mph mark, but I don't want to over rev.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed May 15, 2019 4:10 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Looks like it will be ok. Will be worth a try and if not there is the re-bore option (with a better piston). Didn't need to sand it really just the hone would have done.

Be very accurate when going for those porting durations. They should pull 22/68 gearing, as long as you don't go over. 166 squish needs to be no more than 1.00mm.

As you are already finding out, set up is everything. Not just the amount of power that comes from a correct set up carb but the riding comfort of no bogging and easy starting.
I could have saved myself an hour of scratching the sandpaper over it to smooth out. My OCD was satisfied with its removal though so well worth the hours work.

I did not want to go the rebore route as I think the cost of a new piston and rebore is the same price I paid for this kit new. But you do have me wondering what piston you are talking about, and what the standard bore up sizes are? I was on sip looking and I think they make a 61.4mm and a 61.8mm piston which I assume are meant for 1st and 2nd over?

This malossi 166 mk iii kit comes only with a single base gasket, a head gasket and an o ring which I assume is meant for the head. Im curious when I throw all these on how close the default port timings, blowdown and squish come out to the desired marks. I've also been looking for various thickness base gaskets cause I realized I may need more options than the 1 provided. So now Im wondering if I need to order the malossi specific ones or if I can get others. Just don't want to wait for another sip order with the week turnaround time and shipping costs, but I'll probably have to anyways.

If I need to grind the exhaust port out, I will take it slow and aim for less is more. That port is much easier to reach so I should be fine with a steady hand on that. The transfer ports were just a weird angle with no direct access which led to a slight slip when trying to smooth out the transition from top/bottom to side walls. Had no issues using the dremel on the exhaust port with easy access.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed May 15, 2019 4:27 am quote
redstella wrote:
This should be fun. Just the SIP Road Sport and jetting got mine to get well over the 55 mph mark, but I don't want to over rev.
I've got a tach and temp gauge on mine so I'm less worried about it than I was before. When I started riding 2 stroke I thought the engine was screaming for me to slow down.. turns out I was barely revving it, and it wants to scream! Needless to say, I'm not as hesitant to ride it hard anymore.

If I end up rebuilding it, I was also planning on replacing the crank with a 60mm crank to hopefully edge out every bit of power.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed May 15, 2019 1:07 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Looks like it will be ok. Will be worth a try and if not there is the re-bore option (with a better piston). Didn't need to sand it really just the hone would have done.

Be very accurate when going for those porting durations. They should pull 22/68 gearing, as long as you don't go over. 166 squish needs to be no more than 1.00mm.

As you are already finding out, set up is everything. Not just the amount of power that comes from a correct set up carb but the riding comfort of no bogging and easy starting.
Hey Jack, just wondering what the acceptable tolerances are for proper ring gap? I have read it should be approx. Bore size x .004 = ring gap. For this 166 with 61mm bore that means gap should be 0.244mm. the rings i have are closer to 0.252mm or 0.27mm. i don't have an accurate measurement, just know they are loose enough for the 0.252mm feeler to fit in comfortably.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Thu May 16, 2019 12:29 am quote
Those rings are ok. 0.2mm up to and maybe beyond 1.0mm will run.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 16, 2019 10:42 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Those rings are ok. 0.2mm up to and maybe beyond 1.0mm will run.
Great news!

I'll be sidetracked with a week of work next week so i will not be able to put serious time into this upgrade for another week. But I'm ready to finally get this on the Stella. Gonna install the 22t clutch gear first just to get a sense of how it affects the performance and torque as it currently stands. Like to understand exactly how each part changes the end performance. Then once the malossi is on I'll change over to the 24/24 carb and start jetting for that with an optimistic increase over the suggested jetting based on how much over stock my jetting is currently.

Your tips for jetting have been an immense help because i now feel like i understand generally what the symptoms of different conditions mean and which jets are affected. So I'm no longer shooting into the dark but know how bogging feels from the main vs idle, how hanging idles affect the running conditions and what to change when i see each of these conditions.

My process for jet changes now are to set the idle for quick return with no hanging by enriching air mix.. check the main for bogging by running wot then if not bogging check for lean by choke testing wot.. bring main down or up one size at a time, then adjust air mix screw out or in until idle settles fast again (seems 1 main jet size ends up being between a half a turn and a full turn on the air mix in the correct direction for what main jet change I made), then check plug at both ends after miles of running. Then continue again if needed.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun May 19, 2019 6:21 pm quote
clutch side seal leak?
I rushed home from busy weekend of family stuff to pull the clutch out of the stella tonight to upgrade the gear cog to 22T and am now questioning if there is a clutch side oil seal leak? I was planning on doing the 22T upgrade and installing the malossi cylinder this week at night since I am working all week, and hopefully having it ready to ride next weekend. Now I am thinking maybe I should rebuild the engine now instead of this winter.. does this seem like it should happen soon given the oil on the axle inside the rubber bushing mount?

There is a thick layer of crusty dried oil on the engine this side. It may be from the carb air mix screw hole, but the wet oil on the axle worries me that there is a oil seal leak on the engine.

It also appears my clutch plates were dry as a bone, cork starting to fall apart in a few spots, and the plate tabs are rounded off and starting to break. So I should at minimum replace the plates. While I'm at it, I think I should probably upgrade the clutch basket to reinforced. Is this a good choice for a 22T reinforced clutch?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+sport+_93404000

If so, I may return the 22T gear cog I already bought for the existing clutch and buy this new complete clutch.

Additionally, I am wondering what exactly causes damage to the clutch plate tabs like that? Is it from down shifting at too high an rpm or does that only affect the shift cross and gears?

IMG_20190519_200609.jpg
oil on axle inside the bushing? oil seal leak? should rebuild now or this winter?

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IMG_20190519_200642.jpg
quarter inch thick layer of oil crusted all over the engine on this side.

IMG_20190519_200650.jpg

IMG_20190519_200627.jpg
so much crusty oil

IMG_20190519_212333_01.jpg

IMG_20190519_213454.jpg

IMG_20190519_213222.jpg
bone dry

IMG_20190519_213233.jpg
tabs rounded and damaged on plates

IMG_20190519_213205.jpg

IMG_20190519_213158.jpg

IMG_20190519_213148.jpg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1341

Sun May 19, 2019 7:15 pm quote
Swiss,
Everything look completely normal with your scooter. The engines will get that dirty if you don't clean them. I like to stay on top of keeping mine clean, so i clean my scoot engines once i notice ANY dirt or oil on them (don't judge me). The clutch corks look like that, so they too also look normal. The ears on them wear out because they're a wear item. If you thow a bunch more power into your scooter, they wear out faster. To make them last longer don't do any hard accerations or down shifting at high RPMs.

Before i would intall that cylinder kit, i would recommend to rebuild the engine first. Make sure all your gears are in tip top shape, and replace the seals, cruciform, and both side of the crank bearings. I'd also replace that brass trust washer that's on the clutch.


Oh, this is a Stella engine right? If you haven't replaced the stock crankshaft, do it now before it self destructs. You might also have to replace the spring gears that are located inside the cush drive too. If you have to replace more that a couple of the loose gears in your transmission, it might just be better to upgrade to a higher quality Piaggio EFL complete gear stack and axle.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun May 19, 2019 8:30 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Before i would intall that cylinder kit, i would recommend to rebuild the engine first. Make sure all your gears are in tip top shape, and replace the seals, cruciform, and both side of the crank bearings. I'd also replace that brass trust washer that's on the clutch.


Oh, this is a Stella engine right? If you haven't replaced the stock crankshaft, do it now before it self destructs. You might also have to replace the spring gears that are located inside the cush drive too. If you have to replace more that a couple of the loose gears in your transmission, it might just be better to upgrade to a higher quality Piaggio EFL complete gear stack and axle.
Ok so there is a vote for rebuild now instead later. I appreciate the confidence that this is not a seal leak but just normal oil coverage from 2 stroke engine not cleaned regularly!

I wanted to ride it this summer asap thats why I was thinking of doing the cylinder kit first and then rebuild later, but I guess since I'm already in the mindset that I should rebuild now, then I will probably do that.

In that case, I was planning on doing the case matching and replacing the crankshaft in the winter, but I will do that now. My thought was to throw a long stroke crank in to get more out of the malossi 166 to a 176. I understand 57 vs 60 crank, but am not sure how the 105 vs 110 conrod would change things.. aka.. with this malossi 166 mk III kit, any suggestions on if I should even do the 60mm crank and whether it should be a 105 vs 110 conrod?

Looks like this will take precedent this summer to get it done as soon as possible. The p200e project is on hold until I get my main commuter rebuilt to highway suited needs.. as my goal all along was to get this stella suitable to drive to work every day in Manhattan by the fall when my work schedule picks up again. The p200e can wait till the fall/winter for the rebuild.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun May 19, 2019 9:01 pm quote
I guess I see on SIP website that 110 conrod is for 200 engines, 105 is for 150 engines.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Mon May 20, 2019 12:15 am quote
As WDC all looks normal for a properly used engine. Be sure to check the gearbox oil level every few thousand miles. When the seal is gone it shows here first.

I know people (weird people) like the 7 spring clutch but I think its just old junk.

A new cosa clutch with a 22 cog would be best. The banded one you chose is a fair choice. Like all of us I only use the CR80 plates now. They do everything better than the steel ones, work better, don't slip, can use lighter springs, last longer, don't bend etc.

CR80 plates now come in original or SIP versions
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip+_93081700

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip_93081800

If you still have decent gearbox oil, you could put that clutch back in as is and fit the 166 as planned. re-build in the Winter.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon May 20, 2019 4:38 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
As WDC all looks normal for a properly used engine. Be sure to check the gearbox oil level every few thousand miles. When the seal is gone it shows here first.

I know people (weird people) like the 7 spring clutch but I think its just old junk.

A new cosa clutch with a 22 cog would be best. The banded one you chose is a fair choice. Like all of us I only use the CR80 plates now. They do everything better than the steel ones, work better, don't slip, can use lighter springs, last longer, don't bend etc.

CR80 plates now come in original or SIP versions
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip+_93081700

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip_93081800

If you still have decent gearbox oil, you could put that clutch back in as is and fit the 166 as planned. re-build in the Winter.
I'll definitely buy those clutch plates in the future. Just bought normal plates from scooterworks in the US for now to save on shipping costs and get them faster. I will rebuild in the winter as I would rather ride now and run in the new cylinder this summer before tearing it apart and being down some time. It gives me time to hold off spending a chunk of money I can't afford right now as the new clutch and crankshaft are the only parts I haven't bought yet.

I am thinking this crankshaft:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/flowed+crankshaft+serie+pro+_46030000
Hooked
1978 P150X; 1982 P200e
Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 412
Location: Toronto
Mon May 20, 2019 5:29 am quote
If your Stella is rideable I would enjoy it over summer as is, then do the rebuild plus upgrades over the winter. Unless you have another bike you can ride while the Stella is on the bench?

My two cents, which might be biased cause rising season is so short here in Canada!
Addicted
Stella 2T, P200, Rally 180 Euro
Joined: 06 Jan 2014
Posts: 564
Location: Camden, ME
Mon May 20, 2019 5:34 am quote
I can hit about 70mph on flat road with my Stella. Has a Polini kit not matched, upgear, Ducati CDI, Boyesen dual stage reads and a SIP road. Tried a 24/24 but ran like crap and didnít change much, so stuck with the 20/20 due to advice on here. The 24/24 is just to big for the LML stock reed block.

Iím also still running the stock crank, never rebuilt. The economy crank from Mercato is another good option. Oh, and that motor looks just like mine if I donít clean it, really annoying.
Hooked
1980 P200E in progress, 2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 342
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon May 20, 2019 6:05 am quote
keaton85 wrote:
I can hit about 70mph on flat road with my Stella. Has a Polini kit not matched, upgear, Ducati CDI, Boyesen dual stage reads and a SIP road. Tried a 24/24 but ran like crap and didnít change much, so stuck with the 20/20 due to advice on here. The 24/24 is just to big for the LML stock reed block.

Iím also still running the stock crank, never rebuilt. The economy crank from Mercato is another good option. Oh, and that motor looks just like mine if I donít clean it, really annoying.
I can do 60 by gps downhill. I'm a bigger guy with stock engine right now. Looking for 70 with the upgraded top end. I was gonna do some minimal porting to the exhaust but i think I'll just throw the cylinder on with included gaskets as is for now because i plan on the 60mm crank later. With that in mind i think it's better to leave the exhaust port default until i get the different crank in there so that I'm setting up the timing correctly for that crank, not the 57mm.

Btw, i lived in Camden for a few Summers back in mid 2000s when i worked at the photo workshops. Loved Maine. Just can't find work there to afford living there. So i deal with nyc despite preferring the woods.
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