Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:18 am quote
Got everything back together and did the first heat cycle idled until it got up to 217F then shut down and heading to work. Tomorrow before work hopefully I'll get it through a few more heat cycles and start to work the main down from bubbling to slightly rich.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipMsbfUeOrsGo8DYxl3rURETsivszds6weA6g5s6

The lessons this episode had taught me are too be very slow and cautious with jetting, if you are in a rush, don't mess with jetting, and finally to stop worrying so much about these parts. They are durable and can handle minor damage.

itsalive.jpg

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Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:47 pm quote
I missplace the post.. I am sorry
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Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:35 pm quote
Make you feel easier about winding it out.
Love that its back on the road.


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Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:42 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Make you feel easier about winding it out.
Love that its back on the road.


Yup. New rings, new gaskets, new small end bearing and minimal work cleaning the piston up. Now back to working on keeping the temps down at speed.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:00 am quote
Cheap fix didn't last long. Two heat cycles about an hour and 15 min total (only idling, no revving) and then on third heat cycle I started to lightly rev it, with an excessively rich main to be safe and it went from great idle to weak but fast idling and kept dying. Now it struggles to start and stay idling. Compression test showed bad results after this.

So now back to the difficult decision on best way to spend money without wasting more on top of the $35-40 spent on new rings:

1. new piston same size no up bore. (could lead to still spending on #2) approx $100 plus what already spent
2. up bore, piston 1st over. (at this point, its halfway to #3) approx $150 plus what already spent
3. whole new kit. (at this point, im splitting cases and doing the full rebuild) approx $407 plus what already spent

IMG_20190831_124127_01.jpg

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Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:10 am quote
Swiss - frustrating.
One question before you throw in the rag on this one:
Any chance its the head leaking?
I think yours uses the O rings - I have heard mixed results.
A leak down test - rather then compression would identify if that's the issue - rather than rings.
Leak down can be done right in place fairly quickly.
Just a thought - bad head seal would give you poor compression test.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:18 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - frustrating.
One question before you throw in the rag on this one:
Any chance its the head leaking?
I think yours uses the O rings - I have heard mixed results.
A leak down test - rather then compression would identify if that's the issue - rather than rings.
Leak down can be done right in place fairly quickly.
Just a thought - bad head seal would give you poor compression test.
Good suggestion. I'll see about checking that. But one thing that makes me doubt that is that it had great compression and idled great one instant then lost compression and ran poorly in a split second. Head leaking I would think would show itself the whole time.

I'm growing closer to just completely rebuilding the engine.
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:34 am quote
Makes sense.
Totally frustrating moment - hope the neighbors aren't too sensitive to loud salty language being yelled.

It's possible that a ring got caught and was pulverized in some way.
But on the other hand - none of that damage you showed suggests that the rings were in any danger unless for some reason they are pinched in one of the slots in an area you didn't catch (and thus simply can't expand).

Based on the lack of racket and symptoms - there's a chance this is something simple rather then catastrophic.

I would leak down - if nothing shows - move to drop back of engine at shock - and pull cylinder to see if I could spot why the rings are not sealing.

If not in pieces - then more likely stuck in slot and just needs a bit more cleaning out to make them happy.

Keep us posted.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:36 am quote
When doing a bore first over, what is the tolerance between piston size vs bore size? I might be able to get a friend who runs a machine shop to re bore my cylinder for free or really cheap, but I don't know if they have ever done engine cylinders. They do custom machinery.

If I can get him to re bore it, I would like to be able to tell him the tolerances to work from the actual first over piston size.

I'm just exploring all options.

Edit:. I see a thread about this with p200 cylinders. Wondering if the tolerances are the same for Malossi 166:

0.2mm bore up sizes
with 0.208-0.224mm assembly tolerances measured 30mm from cylinder top and 5mm from bottom piston ring.

http://modernvespa.com/forum/post1449178#1449178

Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:33 pm quote
This cheap oversize kit can become an option. It allows you to keep the 166 head if its not damaged.

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cylinder-Assembly/122826O
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:57 pm quote
rowdyc wrote:
This cheap oversize kit can become an option. It allows you to keep the 166 head if its not damaged.

http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Cylinder-Assembly/122826O
That is actually a good option. Wondering if that is the same exact cylinder I have now. What is the difference between the mark 2 and Mark 3 kits? Not sure which this one is.

Edit: was thinking this was a Malossi but not sure now cause they don't look the same
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:35 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Makes sense.
Totally frustrating moment - hope the neighbors aren't too sensitive to loud salty language being yelled.

It's possible that a ring got caught and was pulverized in some way.
But on the other hand - none of that damage you showed suggests that the rings were in any danger unless for some reason they are pinched in one of the slots in an area you didn't catch (and thus simply can't expand).

Based on the lack of racket and symptoms - there's a chance this is something simple rather then catastrophic.

I would leak down - if nothing shows - move to drop back of engine at shock - and pull cylinder to see if I could spot why the rings are not sealing.

If not in pieces - then more likely stuck in slot and just needs a bit more cleaning out to make them happy.

Keep us posted.
Missed this post. All good suggestions. I could remove it again and try cleaning piston up further and maybe double checking the port edges in the cylinder, but then this is where the potential for money drain comes in. Another set of rings is $30-40. That doesn't work then another piston is 100. So at some point where do you say screw it just replace it when you are encroaching on the cost of a whole new kit.

I have a little time tomorrow to go through it again and see if anything glaring wrong.
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:59 pm quote
You gotta stick a new boom boom room on that rocket ship!
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:07 pm quote
PureDrivenSnow wrote:
You gotta stick a new boom boom room on that rocket ship!
Lol. Yeah. That's what I'm leaning towards.

I'll try this leak down tester tomorrow to double check that it's not something else.

https://www.harborfreight.com/Cylinder-Leak-Down-Tester-62595.html
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:10 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Any chance its the head leaking?
I'm thinking this might have been my problem this time, but not for the reason you suggest.

Going way back to when I first installed this kit a few months ago, I had a problem that I mentioned but no one seemed concerned about it, so I just assumed I was overly worried about the possibility of any little damage or issue. I removed the studs to take the stock cylinder off because I could not get enough room by lowering the engine. When I re-installed the new studs after sliding this mal 166 cylinder on, I went to torque down the head bolts and all went fine until I tried to torque down the top left stud nut, closest to the flywheel. Torquing that nut down and I heard a loud crack that reverbed through the whole engine, then I could never get that stud nut to torque down. So I removed that stud and saw its thread stripped at the bottom inside the case, then cleaned the case thread up with a tap and die set, and reinstalled a new stud. That new stud I eased off on torquing and didn't really try to crank it down to spec, just brought it close enough just before the crack happened. I left it like that and ran the kit for two months until I screwed up jetting and seized.

These were the studs I bought from scooter mercato that kept stripping on that one stud:
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Hardware/150656

Jump back to current, and when I re-installed the kit after cleaning up the piston damage and putting new rings on, I put new studs in again (same kind bought from scooter mercato which were cheap). This time I tried to torque all head nuts down to spec again and the same stud position made a loud crack again when almost to spec. I tried to torque it down again after that and it felt tight but kept spinning, but never clicked the wrench, so I said screw it, it was the same as before and figured it was tight enough cause it felt like it was on the edge of clicking the wrench. Seize again on stand after 2 30 min idle heat cycles and about 10 min of revving lightly.

So I just went to pull the head and everything off again, but before I did, I tried to torque that nut down again and went at it to see if it would click with the torque wrench and the stud just kept spinning. Pulled the stud out and it was not in tight at all compared to the other 3, so I believe this might have been the problem... 1 out of 4 studs was loose and potentially that created an air leak once I started revving the engine which created more pressure on the head than the weakly torqued nut could hold. The piston had new damage and unfortunately this time it actually did some damage to the cylinder walls in two spots which will most likely mean re-boring and a first over piston.

I think this is the cheapest option and will most likely do this. I also don't think it is a result of jetting as I was running it this time with the richest idle jet (45/120) that was working great from prior to the first seize. Also the main jet is insanely rich to the point that it was fouling the plug this time (currently 125MJ to be extra cautious, where a 110MJ before was about the last jet size that was still bogging from rich prior to first seize), so my gut is telling me this was a result of air leak due to that stud not being able to torque down and not for any jetting issues.

As for that one stud hole, which kept stripping the studs... I cleaned it out again with tap and die set and it seems good. Im thinking that those studs I bought cheap might not be the best as they seem to strip at the same spot with minimal torque pressure. After I first installed the kit months ago, I ordered a set of higher quality D.R.T. studs from SIP, which I held off on installing this time as I still had 4 of the original cheap studs left that were good. This time I am trashing all those mercato studs and will use the D.R.T. studs that appear to have deeper thread reach and are made of stainless steel instead of the other ones that looked cast metal of some sort.

These are the D.R.T. studs I have on deck:
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/cylinder+stud+kit+m7x152+mm+_15065850

End result, I feel more confident in going the route of re-boring and first over piston size now because option 1 of reusing the piston is out due to the bore damage. So I will be looking at the first over piston but still want to confirm the exact tolerances required for the malossi 166 first over piston diameter to the new bore diameter. I'll try emailing malossi to see if I can get exact numbers on that before I do anything.

IMG_20190901_202125.jpg
1 of 2 damaged areas on the bore from second seize.

IMG_20190901_202114.jpg
2 of 2 damaged areas on the bore. this one is deeper.

IMG_20190901_202003.jpg
new damage to piston head. some of it is deeper.

IMG_20190901_201903.jpg
all new damage. you can see the top ring got snagged by it.

IMG_20190901_201928.jpg
look at all that new damage.

IMG_20190901_193125.jpg
this is the dreaded stud hole that keeps me up at night worrying about nuts not torqued to spec.

Molto Verboso
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Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:27 pm quote
If you said this months ago it would have saved a lot of time.
It is a shame when the casing threads strip. New studs (even over size) wont fix it on their own once the threads have jumped a few times. You'll need to helicoil the casing before this runs again. Another new skill probably. Really not that hard but you do only get one go at it. After that it a timesert. After that the casings need serious work to survive.

3 studs will never hold a head on without a big leak. At least it will make jetting it next time much easier. Was wondering why it was so difficult.

Cylinder is too far gone. rebore and oversize piston it is.

As I keep saying over and over again, there is no need to ever take the studs out. Never. Its just not needed. Swing the engine and slip the cylinder off. No risk at all. Use deep, triple thick head nuts and the studs never strip. Good for decades.
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:49 am quote
Maybe try one of the DRT studs the other way round in that problematic hole. I know others may disagree but I often install studs this way as you get more thread into the case. You just need to be careful with the stud that gets near to the autolube mechanism, but that's not the one in your case.

Otherwise, as Jack says, start getting familiar with helicoiling.
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:40 am quote
Well at least I know this was the problem now after being driven crazy by jetting and temps that would never line up with what everyone's been suggesting.

The DRT studs have probably double the thread length than the cheap studs on both ends and the studs themselves are longer. I drove one into that hole and it grabs and feels stronger, and goes much further into the hole than the spot which stripped on the cheap studs, so I will run a test by re-installing the cyl and head and attempt to torque everything down again. if it works, then I'll stick with those DRT studs after re-boring the cyl. If not, then I will do a time-sert on that hole as it seems the helicoil is a cheap temp solution, while a time-sert is the same thing but more permanent. No more cheap solutions for this problem, they have only lead to more expensive solutions.

It does seem they only make M7x1.0 time-serts at deepest 20mm, which is not the full length of the hole.
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:36 am quote
Looking at the position of the worst damage on the piston, I believe it confirms this as the problem. All the worst damage is located closest to that stud location.
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:42 am quote
Swiss - seems like you and I are on some cosmic parallel paths - that we would prefer not to even be on.

One of my studs stripped as I was torquing the head - forcing the removal and replacement. On my case - someone had already replaced the studs with an 8mm version at the case end - and turned down the other end to 7mm.

Removal of that stud from the case galled the case itself - some of the case threads came out with the stud. I put in heli coil for 8mm and found 8mm to 7mm conversion studs - one of which promptly stripped at the head end at 12lbs of torque...

Which is to say - this is some bull sh*t ! - as one of my old coaches liked to yell when entering the locker room between periods - when things were going poorly.

For guys like us - without the experience - there would be no reason to think taking out the studs wasn't a good idea. Now we both know the can of worms it can open.

BTW - My $.02 on helicoil. They are not as firm in the top 3-4 threads as the time certs - it is absolutely tru. However - if you order online rather then buy locally - you can get long ones rather then the std depth. These will provide strong holding power and do a much better job then the shorter ones. Jack's point on time certs if not clear - a good one -is, they are so oversized, that if you mess one up - you cant fix it without welding the case. With Helicoil - if you screw it up - you can move to time cert...
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:22 am quote
I am praying that it is only one section of the thread where it repeatedly strips the cheap studs. With the drt studs, the thread length is twice as long which I'm hoping being able to insert that stud at twice the depth will provide more than enough threads with strong holding power. If that works then I will loctite that drt stud into place, before reinstalling the cleaned up cylinder. If the test does not work, then I will be taking on one of these more drastic steps to fix the threads.
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:08 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
BTW - My $.02 on helicoil. They are not as firm in the top 3-4 threads as the time certs - it is absolutely tru. However - if you order online rather then buy locally - you can get long ones rather then the std depth. These will provide strong holding power and do a much better job then the shorter ones. Jack's point on time certs if not clear - a good one -is, they are so oversized, that if you mess one up - you cant fix it without welding the case. With Helicoil - if you screw it up - you can move to time cert...
I have searched online and can only find 10mm m7x1 helicoil inserts. Time-serts I can also only find 20mm at deepest.
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Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:32 pm quote
Hi Swiss - Try Mcmaster Car.
They offer three depths - 14 being deepest.
https://www.mcmaster.com/helicoil-inserts

They also seem to offer one that has slightly "distorted" threads - which are suppose to lock better with your stud's threads.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:49 am quote
Done right helicoils make a fine repair. Two helicoils can be put in the same hole to make the thread longer. Once the studs are in....if you never take them out again the helicoil will stay put.

Deeper head nuts stop the top threads stripping. Triple deep nuts is not over kill.

As CM says if helicoils fail, Timeserts can be tried after. Mess up Timesert and its a specialist job to get back from.
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:23 am quote
First oversized piston purchased along with the 60mm mazz crank to save on shipping from sip.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/piston+malossi+a+139166+cc+_3416170a

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/flowed+crankshaft+serie+pro+_46030000

Still looking for a local machine shop to re-bore even though I can get it done free from a friend, because they have never done automotive stuff before and thinking i would rather pay for someone who does this work for motorcycles regularly.

I'm also kinda waffling on just tearing the engine apart now to make sure there is no other issues with the cases causing air leak and to match cases and install 60mm crank while it's apart. Once the crank arrives, I will have all the necessary parts to completely rebuild the engine.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:11 pm quote
I don't think that's the correct piston for a re-bore. Pistons 0 - H are for standard cylinders and their difference between them are tenths of a mm. The categories are there cause not all cylinders come out the same from the bore machine. You defo need the following for your cylinder to "clean up" properly...

1st Over Size
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/~/products/piston+malossi+139166+cc+_3416170j

Lettering dimensions (Malossi 210 example)...
"0" = 68.410 - 68.419
"A" = 68.420 - 68.429
"B" = 68.430 - 68.439
"C" = 68.440 - 68.449
"D" = 68.450 - 68.459
"H" = 68.490 - 68.499
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:18 pm quote
SaFiS wrote:
I don't think that's the correct piston for a re-bore. Pistons 0 - H are for standard cylinders and their difference between them are tenths of a mm. The categories are there cause not all cylinders come out the same from the bore machine. You defo need the following for your cylinder to "clean up" properly...

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/~/products/piston+malossi+139166+cc+_3416170j

Lettering dimensions (Malossi 210 example)...
"0" = 68.410 - 68.419
"A" = 68.420 - 68.429
"B" = 68.430 - 68.439
"C" = 68.440 - 68.449
"D" = 68.450 - 68.459
"H" = 68.490 - 68.499
Well thanks for this. I Will be returning it and ordering a new one I guess. I looked both on sip and Malossi website and neither were as clear about this as you have been. The description for the pistons all make it seem like the one I ordered was first over. But now seeing that link, I noticed the key "1.o/s" hidden among their title.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:02 pm quote
Did you manage to change the order before it shipped?

Now you will be 60mm crank be sure to complete any Dremelling of the cylinder before doing the rebore. This way any Dremel slips get cleaned up.
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:29 am quote
Of course not. Why would anything go right for this project currently? That order shipped out so fast compared to normal, which I was happy about until the ordering mistake was pointed out! So I had to order the correct one on top of that one, which means double the cost until I get the refund, plus triple the shipping cost in order to get the correct one and send the wrong one back.

I'll be glad when this scooter is finally running again.
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:48 am quote
One small bit of good news. I was able to torque down all nuts including the stubborn stud hole after installing the drt studs with longer threads. So I will be able to proceed with this after re-bore and not require any drastic changes to case threads. I'm going to loctite this stud in.

But now I'm still torn on splitting cases now or later. I kinda want to ride it sooner rather than later, but I do have probably a couple weeks before I can get the cylinder back from any machine shop which should be enough time for me to rebuild.

IMG_20190904_090948.jpg

IMG_20190904_091027.jpg

IMG_20190904_091006.jpg



Last edited by swiss1939 on Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:20 am quote
Recently saw the situation where the clutch side stud was threaded in too far and blocked the oil pump drive. Watch out
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:23 am quote
This Malossi 166 barrel cannot be installed or removed on frame with tilt only. The rear fins overlap the frame corner. I could grind them down, or just rebuild engine and get it running in test stand before installing into frame.

Look at how dirty the engine is. Plus the rear bushing is starting to degrade. I think I'm going to pull it and rebuild now.

IMG_20190904_100145.jpg

IMG_20190904_100153.jpg

IMG_20190904_101903.jpg

IMG_20190904_101628.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:47 am quote
That top left stud can stay in anyway. Once clear of the piston the cylinder will swing out on it.
If you reverse fit the engine bolt. One side can be popped out to get the cylinder off with all studs in.

If the DRT is holding on at least 4 threads it will be OK. You'll have to helical one day but not today.

Are you not getting the cylinder back to tune the exhaust before the rebore?
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:55 am quote
I have not found a machine shop yet so I still have the barrel. I'm going to do all grinding before I send it to any shop. I'm not getting the Piston until mid next week and have today tomorrow off plus half days next week to do any grinding on cases before it arrives. I assume the exhaust port grinding won't take terribly long before after I get the Piston. So I can get everything set up and ready for the Piston before it arrives. Then do exhaust grinding and send barrel to re-bore. Maybe two to three weeks before I can hopefully have it running again with all that and work schedule.
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Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:41 am quote
Quote:
have not found a machine shop yet so I still have the barrel
Swiss - I would think any solid automotive machine shop can bore - it is an age old process - however - the issue for them if they have no experience is in holding the cylinder in their machine.
If they have to guess - or think they will have to build a custom jig - price goes up...

In my experience - the guys that seemed to know what the were doing use the webs between the fins - as a place to apply pressure downwards to clamp. These webs transfer the load from the top web to the bottom web - allowing proper clamping. Surprisingly - some of the inexperienced shops I visited didn't know this trick and struggled with how they would approach clamping.

You may be able to shop a bit more widely for speed/cost savings if you show any potential machinists the webs. Of course - a few calls to some local dirt bike or watercraft stores might help you network your way to local machinists they use on 2 strokes with experience at hand as well.
My $.02

Screen Shot 2019-09-04 at 8.30.04 AM.jpg
Stole this from another posting - red arrow is close enough to webs to show.

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Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:41 am quote
Removed from frame and ready for first wash.

IMG_20190904_113313.jpg

IMG_20190904_113829.jpg

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Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:22 am quote
This engine is fighting me tooth and nail at every step now. Now the clutch castle nut is stripping my castle tool so I tried to use a punch and lightly tapping the castle nut to remove and it's stuck. Won't budge. How do you remove it if it refuses to budge

IMG_20190904_141426.jpg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:33 am quote
^^^impact wrench
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7062
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:42 am quote
Also many ppl chamfer the outside corner of the teeth on the tool to get better engagement. There's a pic somewhere in tips n trix.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4822
Location: So Cal
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:10 am quote
This:

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