Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous123...91011
Author Message
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:25 am quote
Whenever I get this thing off, I am replacing with collar nut like FMP suggests. I'm done with this crap.

EDIT: Finally got it off. Cheap harbor freight air impact gun couldn't get enough pressure to do it, so I went and bought a battery powered impact gun.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:37 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
Also many ppl chamfer the outside corner of the teeth on the tool to get better engagement. There's a pic somewhere in tips n trix.
V oodoo and SoCalGuy, that is a good tip. I hope to never use it as i'm switching to collared nut!

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/nut+m12+mm+hexagonal+af+15mm+_11351940

b5a6e635-0d1b-45f6-a6b7-9190a3a91da4.jpg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:56 pm quote
DRC174 wrote:
Recently saw the situation where the clutch side stud was threaded in too far and blocked the oil pump drive. Watch out
Lee, thanks! I will keep an eye out for that.

BTW, hope the move went smooth.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:01 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
You may be able to shop a bit more widely for speed/cost savings if you show any potential machinists the webs. Of course - a few calls to some local dirt bike or watercraft stores might help you network your way to local machinists they use on 2 strokes with experience at hand as well.
My $.02
Charlieman you are dependable with great suggestions! I was planning on going to the indian motorcycle shop a couple blocks from my garage to ask them who they use for any machining work that is local to Staten Island. The ATV shop across the street from them was where I took the barrel originally, but he said $100 to bore and chamfer and it did not seem like he would get it done in any reasonable time from the response I got from him on honing it, so I will take it elsewhere. Worst case scenario, my buddy who is a classic car mechanic has a shop about 2 hrs away in Long Island that he uses regularly and he said they would charge like $25-40 to do a single cylinder bore.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:10 pm quote
Engine split. I'm in too deep. No turning back now. My second engine split and there is something so satisfying about taking one of these engines apart to see what's inside. Maybe cause I'm still new to this, but I find it rewarding.

This thing is clean inside. I haven't disassembled everything yet, but I think the shift cross might be in great shape for 15 yrs old and 10K+ miles just from peeking at it.

The battery powered impact wrench is a life saver. Why was I using a ratchet for so long?

Once I got the case split, I inserted one of the DRT studs into the flywheel side hole to check if it would interfere with the auto-mix oil gears. I'm quickly being sold on the quality of DRT as they seem to have designed these studs perfectly. They are exactly the length of the hole so it sits flush with the open end near the oil mixer gears, without sticking out at all. They also designed the stud so that it flanges out at the end of the threads so that it bottoms out into the case and prevents you from going any deeper than the thread length. All you gotta do is install the DRT studs until they bottom out with finger snugged and they are good to go without causing any issues with auto-mix gears!

EDIT: Another thing I realized tonight when going through the list of things to do to get this running again. I'm gonna have to use the beat up old piston to measure the timings on the 60mm crank cause the barrel won't be bored for the 1st over piston. So I will try to get everything rebuilt and take measurements as soon as possible so that I can get the exhaust port ground to new timings first. This way I can send the barrel to get bored whenever the parts arrive, and work on the cases while those are off being worked on.

IMG_20190904_200741.jpg
DRT studs flange out at the end of the threads so they bottom out. preventing you from going too deep with the studs.

IMG_20190904_200711.jpg
fully inserted, the DRT studs sit perfectly flush with the case hole so that they do not interfere with the auto mix gears.

IMG_20190904_195839.jpg

IMG_20190904_195816.jpg

IMG_20190904_195823.jpg
original lml crank. still looks good with minimal play. So long, time for 60mm crank.

IMG_20190904_195831.jpg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:12 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I'd definitely worry about piston shrapnel getting into all the bearings. If you still have the stock LML crank, i would pitch it into the bin ASAP and get a quality one (or get yours rebuild with a quality connecting rod kit). It's well documented that Stella cranks have a very high mortality rate (about a 2500 mile average life expectancy). I would also at bare minimum replace both the fly side and small end bearings. Those little needle bearings have a hard enough time staying alive on tuned motors when metal bits aren't going through them.
WDC, I took the crankshaft out tonight, you'll be glad to hear it will be replaced with mazz 60mm crank as soon as it arrives next week. Also regarding your metal shrapnel bearings comment, I did wipe out a bunch of fine metal particles from the crankshaft area up against the oil seal in front of the bearing. So yeah its probably a good thing that I am rebuilding the engine now. All new bearings going in when I start to assemble. Got a lot of grinding to match case and barrel first.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:28 pm quote
See?...it only takes new crankshafts in Stellas to make me happy.

I brought up to my local mechanic about how long the Stella cranks last. He said on average about 2500 miles, and that he's replaced A LOT of them on stock Stellas. Which is pretty darn accurate because i've had two Stellas, and one crank went out at 2350 miles, and the other scooter lost it's crank at 2600 miles.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:57 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
See?...it only takes new crankshafts in Stellas to make me happy.

I brought up to my local mechanic about how long the Stella cranks last. He said on average about 2500 miles, and that he's replaced A LOT of them on stock Stellas. Which is pretty darn accurate because i've had two Stellas, and one crank went out at 2350 miles, and the other scooter lost it's crank at 2600 miles.
When it's running again I'll also be happy. I find myself watching FPV videos of people riding Vespas in the Alps to get my fix right now.

Mine has had over 10k miles as far as I can tell. Who knows if the original owner had it changed. I doubt it. So I guess this one bucked the trend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cALHs57z8M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ7bxvQXamY
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:18 pm quote
EFL gearbox
whodatschrome wrote:
Pretty much all of us in the US have the older non-EFL transmissions since most of the EFL PX's didn't get officially imported (except by way of the grey market). I got tired of the older weaker transmissions (I was racing scooters at the time), so I converted all my P's over to EFL transmissions (then eventually i got electric start 200 cases for them as well). I think some people think that i do my builds backwards, but i always start with a solid base first...a front disc brake conversion and then a EFL conversion. After that the money is usually gone, so i can't afford a cylinder kit. When that happens i just toss on a stock 200 cylinder and call it good for the next 20,000 -30,000 miles. But when you have a new EFL transmission that is all sorted and a disc brake, you can always be sure that your engine (and scooter) will be ready for a performance cylinder kit at a later date. I've done it the other way around a few times, but i have learned my lesson.
Getting confused with my own disassembly of my p200 first and now this stella second, plus whosdatchrome and charlieman's discussion about EFL gearboxes on his sidecar thread (copied above) which made me think I had non-EFL gearbox on this stella.

I just pulled the gearbox out of case and took it apart then realized this was actually an EFL gearbox. It has the circlips on both sides with spacers, with the straight cruciform and no spacer on the gearbox plunger arm. BUT, it does have the earlier non-EFL style oil seal on the outside instead of inside.

Cruciform is not terrible for 10k miles, but enough to explain why I had some occasional difficulty shifting into and out of 2nd gear, or why it would pop out occasionally. It will definitely get replaced. All the gears look great aside from surface wear on the inside edge that took off the matte look and made small shiny surface. The corners that contact the cruciform and gear teeth themselves are all sharp and not damaged.

SIP Package arrived today with the 60mm mazz flowed crank and the wrong sized piston that I will be sending back. Correct 1st over piston should arrive in 1-2 days.

Since I have everything out, I will be replacing everything expendable inside, all bearings/seals/cruciform including the primary drive shaft bearing and replacing the springs with new DRT reinforced spring kit. Discussed gearing with Jack and he suggests keeping it exactly the same I have now with 22/68. He's also going to advise once I get the crank in and do some measurements again on best port timing to get the most power out of this barrel and box exhaust. I'm willing to go very peaky and fast with this since I plan to make the p200 a very torquey touring engine (with jack's and others advice of course).

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/repair+kit+primary+drive+drt+_16020600

IMG_20190909_204924.jpg

IMG_20190909_204940.jpg

IMG_20190909_205003.jpg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:05 pm quote
Re: EFL gearbox
swiss1939 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
Pretty much all of us in the US have the older non-EFL transmissions since most of the EFL PX's didn't get officially imported (except by way of the grey market). I got tired of the older weaker transmissions (I was racing scooters at the time), so I converted all my P's over to EFL transmissions (then eventually i got electric start 200 cases for them as well). I think some people think that i do my builds backwards, but i always start with a solid base first...a front disc brake conversion and then a EFL conversion. After that the money is usually gone, so i can't afford a cylinder kit. When that happens i just toss on a stock 200 cylinder and call it good for the next 20,000 -30,000 miles. But when you have a new EFL transmission that is all sorted and a disc brake, you can always be sure that your engine (and scooter) will be ready for a performance cylinder kit at a later date. I've done it the other way around a few times, but i have learned my lesson.
Getting confused with my own disassembly of my p200 first and now this stella second, plus whosdatchrome and charlieman's discussion about EFL gearboxes on his sidecar thread (copied above) which made me think I had non-EFL gearbox on this stella.

I just pulled the gearbox out of case and took it apart then realized this was actually an EFL gearbox. It has the circlips on both sides with spacers, with the straight cruciform and no spacer on the gearbox plunger arm. BUT, it does have the earlier non-EFL style oil seal on the outside instead of inside.

Cruciform is not terrible for 10k miles, but enough to explain why I had some occasional difficulty shifting into and out of 2nd gear, or why it would pop out occasionally. It will definitely get replaced. All the gears look great aside from surface wear on the inside edge that took off the matte look and made small shiny surface. The corners that contact the cruciform and gear teeth themselves are all sharp and not damaged.

SIP Package arrived today with the 60mm mazz flowed crank and the wrong sized piston that I will be sending back. Correct 1st over piston should arrive in 1-2 days.

Since I have everything out, I will be replacing everything expendable inside, all bearings/seals/cruciform including the primary drive shaft bearing and replacing the springs with new DRT reinforced spring kit. Discussed gearing with Jack and he suggests keeping it exactly the same I have now with 22/68. He's also going to advise once I get the crank in and do some measurements again on best port timing to get the most power out of this barrel and box exhaust. I'm willing to go very peaky and fast with this since I plan to make the p200 a very torquey touring engine (with jack's and others advice of course).

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/repair+kit+primary+drive+drt+_16020600
The Stella has a EFL "style" gearbox. That means you can slowly swap over individual Piaggio brand EFL gears in place of the Indian made LML gears and shafts. You don't have to replace everything at once. Whenever I worked on my friend's Stella's engine, I would always sneak in better quality transmission components into his scooter.

Though worn out, that cross doesn't look too bad for 10k miles. I've seen worse crosses with only 3k miles on it.

I think you were saying that the Stella has a 35 tooth 4th gear (same as a P2)? If so, i'd almost swap in a EFL 36 tooth 4th from a T5. I only say this because you said you were planning on building up a peaky engine. Your bike will have an easier time getting to the powerband (and staying in...especially in headwinds and up hills) when the 3rd and 4th gears are spaced closer together. If you want a higher gearing, you can go to a 23T clutch (if your engine is powerful enough) I can't remember if a 23/68 gears are compatible or not, but I think I've combined the two before in a 2005 PX150. Just remember that gearing is paramount in a 2 stroke engine! You can build up a 20HP engine, and still struggle to reach 55-60mph if you choose the wrong gearing. For instance, I install 36 tooth "short" 4th's in all my stock 200 engines because I have to deal with headwinds and hills. I can still cruise at 60mph with no problems and open it up more to get a little over 70mph for a max top speed. But the best part is that I can still maintain 55mph up most of the steeper hills on the highway.

For my freshly built Pinasco PX215 engine, I swapped in a short 4th, but then I also swapped in a taller 24 tooth clutch. It gives me pretty much the same exact top gear ratio as a stock P200, but 3rd and 4th gear are closer together. That gearing makes for a very nice highway touring. I have no idea what top speed on the scooter us yet, but it's MUCH faster (of course) than my stock PX200, and that has a top speed of over 70! I guess it's time to mount up a GPS, rather than using my "butt" dyno before I start spouting off the top speed of my 215 kit?
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:52 am quote
Yes the Stella has this gearing stock:

1st - 57
2nd - 42
3rd - 38
4th - 35

With your suggestions about upgrading quality of gears incrementally, I was considering getting the drt 2nd gear because I figure that is the one that takes the most punishment.

I do have hills where I live, my street is up a hill, so I do want to keep some torque but would like this one to fly on highway.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 591
Location: california
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:45 am quote
In for a penny... in for a pound
Swiss - I wasn't even going to post this - like you need anything else to consider spending on...

My $.02 after winning the internet reading about EFL components comes from the SIP catalog.

It's another $100 you don't need to spend - but if you wanted to upgrade - I think all your other components and cogs operate with it. I might choose this over a new second gear cog if nothing is wrong with existing one.

The "warning" language is a bit of nonsense. On the other hand - I remember you posting a picture and noting some grooves in your output shaft of your other motor I think? I wonder if this is what they are referring to.

- CM

Screen Shot 2019-09-10 at 8.41.41 AM.jpg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:49 am quote
This got me wondering what people know from their experience are the gears to get damaged the most? I searched the forum but couldn't find any specific discussion about this. My theory from zero experience but educated guessing is that 2nd and maybe third gear receive the most damage because of the high rpm rate when shifting into 2nd and the higher chances of miss shifting. It seems more commonly mentioned for one to have shifting problems in 2nd or third than any other. Combine that with the higher revolutions at lower gears for it to really build momentum and smash into the gears when miss shifting. I'm also assuming 1st doesn't see much damage because you generally only use it at very low rpms when stopping or starting where it won't have much miss shifting opportunities.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:58 am quote
Re: In for a penny... in for a pound
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - I wasn't even going to post this - like you need anything else to consider spending on...

My $.02 after winning the internet reading about EFL components comes from the SIP catalog.

It's another $100 you don't need to spend - but if you wanted to upgrade - I think all your other components and cogs operate with it. I might choose this over a new second gear cog if nothing is wrong with existing one.

The "warning" language is a bit of nonsense. On the other hand - I remember you posting a picture and noting some grooves in your output shaft of your other motor I think? I wonder if this is what they are referring to.

- CM
This is an option I was mulling over. You are right, these parts start to add up especially when choosing the drt stuff. I am thinking to avoid upgrading gears right now because my parts list of growing expensive from things I'm replacing just because it's easier now. But I can always go back and rebuild at a later date since it does not really take tons of time, plus I'm curious how the stock LML gears will do with the extra power.

I am mulling this shaft upgrade you suggest though because the shaft was extremely stubborn removing and took using a metal punch and weighted hammer on the indent with more force than I'd like to remove. This started to deform the inner opening metal of that indent which will require some filing down to allow the cotter pin to slide through. It did not deform the head or threads, just the little opening in the face where the indent is. Your info about the added slots helping to lock in gears with higher rpm is giving me one more reason to do that swap instead of any gears.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1560
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:10 am quote
Re: EFL gearbox
swiss1939 wrote:
BUT, it does have the earlier non-EFL style oil seal on the outside instead of inside.
There were two EFL axles during the transition...

8ec0c31c_561e_4478_846a_16252e48d8e1_88913.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
This got me wondering what people know from their experience are the gears to get damaged the most? I searched the forum but couldn't find any specific discussion about this. My theory from zero experience but educated guessing is that 2nd and maybe third gear receive the most damage because of the high rpm rate when shifting into 2nd and the higher chances of miss shifting. It seems more commonly mentioned for one to have shifting problems in 2nd or third than any other. Combine that with the higher revolutions at lower gears for it to really build momentum and smash into the gears when miss shifting. I'm also assuming 1st doesn't see much damage because you generally only use it at very low rpms when stopping or starting where it won't have much miss shifting opportunities.
Both 2nd and 3rd gear tend to get the most wear. I think 2nd gear usually gets the most wear(?), but 3rd gear is more critical (and noticeable) because you would be staying in that gear for much longer periods of time when accelerating. It's not too often that you'll have issues with popping out of 2nd gear, but popping out of 3rd gear is very common when accelerating up long hills (with either worn cross or gears). I've noticed this on P's, Smallies, and Lammy's.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:33 am quote
Re: EFL gearbox
SaFiS wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
BUT, it does have the earlier non-EFL style oil seal on the outside instead of inside.
There were two EFL axles during the transition...
I'm gonna have to take a picture of mine today to see which it is.

Sitting here thinking about all this, I think I'm going to leave the gearbox alone for now. Nothing requires a replacement currently aside from cruciform and my costs are already growing over $300 just in random parts I forgot I needed and a few upgrades as I am gonna replace the rear shock with a sip performance one since the engine is out of frame. Not even counting the Piston or machine work costs.

Like I said, I am already foreseeing a second rebuild in a year or two after I ride it the way it is for a while and decide if gearing changes are needed. At that time, I would change all gears to drt if I see any damage from the added power.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:48 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Yes the Stella has this gearing stock:

1st - 57
2nd - 42
3rd - 38
4th - 35

With your suggestions about upgrading quality of gears incrementally, I was considering getting the drt 2nd gear because I figure that is the one that takes the most punishment.

I do have hills where I live, my street is up a hill, so I do want to keep some torque but would like this one to fly on highway.
Everyone wants to fly on the highway (including me!), but you have to think like a (Vespa) 2-stroke engine...if you can't bridge the gap between 3rd and 4th, it makes for a very disappointing build. I've overgeared a few different performance scooters in the past, and was bummed out at the results. The only scooter that I didn't install a short 4th in was a cast iron Polini 208 kit. That kit had so much dang torque that it didn't require any help.

In theory you might loose 2mph on a gear calculator graph if you go with a 36T 4th, but in real life you might gain 5mph on your top speed. It all depends upon how the cylinder is tuned and what the exhaust you use. Like I said about my stock PX200 (with a Sito +), on a paper graph it shows that my top speed should be 65mph with a 35T 4th. Yet when I installed a shorter 36T 4th gear, my top speed went to over 70mph because my engine could pull the shorter gearing easier. I suppose you could always go with either 4th gear, and then simply swap it out at a different point if you don't like how it performs.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:10 am quote
Good point wdc. Everyone wants to fly! I guess it only hurts the wallet to try it, and I'm already hurting that. Good thing I got this scooter for free with the money I'm putting into it!
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:52 pm quote
Engine bushings are definitely needing replacement. These are smaller and different than the ones in my p200. This one is a single tube that goes through the whole length. Can it all be extracted in one direction or is there a lip that prevents everything from being pulled inward like on the p200 cases?

Or can just the metal tube be pulled through in either direction and once you get that out then you can pull the rubber bushings out their own side?

IMG_20190910_182825.jpg

IMG_20190910_182808.jpg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Engine bushings are definitely needing replacement. These are smaller and different than the ones in my p200. This one is a single tube that goes through the whole length. Can it all be extracted in one direction or is there a lip that prevents everything from being pulled inward like on the p200 cases?

Or can just the metal tube be pulled through in either direction and once you get that out then you can pull the rubber bushings out their own side?
ABSOLUTELY DONíT PRESS THE BUSHINGS IN ON A STELLA CASE! They must be pried out, not pushed in, or else....

C07202EC-6430-46B0-8F40-4AB9CAED44BE.jpeg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:13 pm quote
Good looking out! Are they the same size as the p200 bushings?

EDIT: I see the p200 are different sized than the px150/stella. I also bought the pinasco mounts which I'm told don't even fit the p200 cases, only the pinasco cases.. so I can't use them for my p200 project. Doh!

Will need to find suitable replacements for my cases.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:25 pm quote
Stella engine mounts are 30mm/40mm.

P200 are 43mm

Pinasco mounts I bought are 45.5mm

Are the more expensive mounts worth it?
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rubber+engine+mounting+bushs+_17472620

vs

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rubber+engine+mounting+bushs+_17472630
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:31 pm quote
Back to the LML axle... here are photos of it. It has ridges for gears so I don't think a new one is needed specifically for that.

From the photo Safis attached, it appears if "(indicated)" means the pen pointing to the new one, I have the newer style axel.

IMG_20190910_170629.jpg

IMG_20190910_170635.jpg

IMG_20190910_170653.jpg
slots for gears exist on this one.

IMG_20190910_170729.jpg
you can see inside the hole on the face of the shaft.. some flat metal around the hole edges that is deformed from having to use a punch too hard on it.

IMG_20190910_170740.jpg
and from this angle you see that area of deformed metal inside the hole has jutted out. requiring filing to allow cotter pin to slide through smooth.

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:54 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Back to the LML axle... here are photos of it. It has ridges for gears so I don't think a new one is needed specifically for that.

From the photo Safis attached, it appears if "(indicated)" means the pen pointing to the new one, I have the newer style axel.
Just to clear things up some (or make things more muddy), There was only one version of the axle that was in the Stella. The pic that Safis posted up is a little bit misleading...just above the picture with the two axles in it, there is a brief description of "LML's latest shafts". That's actually refering to the plunger thingy that the crusiform screws onto. That part of the photo didn't make it into Safis's picture (the picture of the two different plungers are right above the text, and didn't make it into the picture).
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:47 pm quote
WDC, thanks for the clarification! Less to worry about as a result. Having enough trouble ordering the right parts for this specific engine compared to vespa 150/200 cases with the engine mounts and then the first over piston. wasting money that I can hopefully get back in refund from SIP after spending more money to ship back to Germany.

I got the engine mounts out today after a bunch of problem solving. I watched vespa motorsport's robot video on removing similar engine mounts and went at it today. ground out the notches holding the collar on the large ends pipe, then used my long thread rod to pull the tube out some, but realized the nut on my threaded rod would not fit through the small end of the engine mount space, so I stopped to figure out how to get that tube out. What I ended up doing was using a narrow vice grip to clamp onto the tube sticking out the small end, below the collar on the tube. I sprayed some pb blaster down into the rubber and frame holes in the middle where the tube goes through and layed the engine down on its side so I could hold the case down with one hand while rotating the tube with vice grip around and around while pulling up on the collar as I rotated. The tube slowly worked its way out after about 10 minutes of brute force. Rubber was easy to pry out with flathead after that!

There is definitely more caution to be had removing these mounts than the P200 case mounts, and a word of caution that these LML 150 cases are not the same size engine mounts for the front mounts. P200 case mounts have wide enough opening between the hard stop inner edge and the engine bush metal tube on both sides (this is the key) so that you can use a 1/2"-3/4" threaded rod and 15mm nut to pull the mounts out. On the LML/stella 150 cases, the front engine mounting hole/tube is large on one side and small on the other, with a narrowing internal opening as well, so that on the left side of the case when looking forward, the inner opening is wider than the same opening on the inner right side. This meant that I could not use my 15mm nut on the 3/4" threaded rod to pull the mount tube through once I removed the collar. Because the mount tube is .67" diameter, and the engine case hole on the small right side is only a millimeter or two wider at its smallest. The 15mm nut I had that was the smallest thing I could use as a brace for the rod to pull the tube through. And that was probably about 2-4mm too big to get through the small side inner opening. The other thing to be wary about as WDC has pointed out is the hard stops on the inside of each side. The small side opening hard stop is a thinner lip than the large side inner hard stop. So if you put too much pressure on it trying to press this stuff out, you can easily damage the lip and the whole case on that side.

The rear engine mount on these cases I believe are the same as the p200. I need to measure the opening on both to confirm, but a visual comparison of the old rubber mount to the new replacement look the same (aside from the damage to the old one).

Looking at the rubber after removal, this will explain why everytime I took a sharp turn under slow speed and hit a bump or pothole at the same time, the bike would feel like it was twisting in the middle with front going one direction and the rear was sliding slightly in the other direction!

Another note of caution as pointed out by Robot in his video... DO NOT USE GREASE on the rubber when installing new ones, use tire lube or soap. Grease will start to degrade the rubber, and you do not want a reason to change these things often.

IMG_20190911_194554.jpg
got the large end rubber out after using threaded rod trick to pull the tube a decent way through the case holes.

IMG_20190911_194608.jpg
vice grip as a lever arm to rotate and pull up while holding case down. took some time and effort but it came out!

IMG_20190911_195047.jpg
PIA mounts to get out.

IMG_20190911_195117.jpg
large end hole

IMG_20190911_195059.jpg
small end hole.

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:20 pm quote
new measurements with 60mm crank
Before I removed the old crankshaft bearing, I mounted the new 60mm flowed crankshaft so that I could figure out what base gasket I needed to have the piston flush with barrel deck and mark off where on the cases need to be ground out to match the ports on the barrel to case.


Here are my measurements using the old damaged piston mounted on the new 60mm crankshaft.

new piston: 65.17mm high (top of crown)
old piston: 65.12mm high (top of crown)

1.5mm base gasket on old piston gets approximately 0.05-0.10mm PBT with no decking on barrel. Using the piston height measurements, if they are accurate, means that the PBT will be ~ -0.30mm to 0.00mm

Head has 1.14mm of squish before being cleaned up from pre-ignition (probably increase slightly with a good sanding to get rid of the pitting damage).

This means my total squish is ~ 1.14 to 1.19 mm

Exhaust Port: 35.15mm below deck

I just realized I forgot to remeasure the transfer ports, which shouldn't have changed same as exhaust port, but im sure my measurement style changed slightly this time. So for now I will use same transfer: 47.41mm.

This means currently with piston flush with top of cylinder using a 1.5mm base gasket, my 60mm crank gives me these timings: 177/124 with blowdown: 27.

Before I do anything.. any thoughts from you guys; Jack, WDC, Safis, etc. on where I should go with base gasket/timings/grinding/squish? New goal on this engine is to do max power for this setup. Tourer will be the p200 project.

As you can see from the photos, the cylinder ports do not match the case ports. In fact, when cylinder is mounted on studs, the case's side ports are not wide enough to match the top of the barrel port openings, so the case needs to be ground out at the top of its ports (when looking at it with cylinder to the right and crankshaft to the left). BUT, the case ports are wider at the bottom than the barrel, so the barrel port openings need to be ground out at the bottom to match. This means the overall port widths look to be wider with both case and barrel grinding probably somewhere around 15-20%. The center top smaller port opening looks to match pretty close on both, but I will do some minimal matching the case halves to the gasket.

IMG_20190913_185303.jpg
mounted the new 60mm flowed crank into old bearings just to mock up and measure.

IMG_20190913_192205.jpg
widening the transfer ports on case to match the malossi barrel, includes widening the corner towards one stud slightly.

IMG_20190913_192211.jpg
better angle on the rest of the port that needs to be widened to match the barrel. Scratch marks show how much wider at the top of the ports barrel is than the case.

IMG_20190913_192156.jpg
and the gasket needs some grinding to match the case port which is wider at the bottom. which means...

IMG_20190913_192231.jpg
the barrel needs to also be ground out at the bottom of the transfer ports to match. so the ports are growing much wider to match both.

IMG_20190913_192405.jpg
slightly different view of same area needing grinding.

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:43 pm quote
Looking faster already. With the base matching they have to be smooth transition from casing to the cylinder. Metal can be taken from either casing or cylinder whichever one is not flush.

Whats the arc and chord width of your exhaust port? As you have a thin ring piston, probably something worthwhile can be done here.

PBT at zero deck is giving an ok 1.1 squish and the transfers are not so bad at 124 either. Might be easier to leave it there. Transfers would be better at 125 and squish better at 1.0 but only if you can be bothered.
However, as you want to make this interesting, I would move the exhaust to 32.5mm with a sporty shape. Quite a bit of grinding to do. That way if you ever change the exhaust or carb there will be more power.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:49 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Looking faster already. With the base matching they have to be smooth transition from casing to the cylinder. Metal can be taken from either casing or cylinder whichever one is not flush.

Whats the arc and chord width of your exhaust port? As you have a thin ring piston, probably something worthwhile can be done here.

PBT at zero deck is giving an ok 1.1 squish and the transfers are not so bad at 124 either. Might be easier to leave it there. Transfers would be better at 125 and squish better at 1.0 but only if you can be bothered.
However, as you want to make this interesting, I would move the exhaust to 32.5mm with a sporty shape. Quite a bit of grinding to do. That way if you ever change the exhaust or carb there will be more power.
Interesting. So aside from leaving it the way it is, you suggest a -0.2mm PBT (which would be a 1.5 and a 0.2mm base gasket) to bring transfer ports up to 125, then grinding exhaust port wider/boxier (depending on arc/chord measurements which I need to figure out how to do), and grinding it up to 32.5mm below deck to get the exhaust timing to 188. And with the 1.16-1.21mm squish that would create, skim 0.16-0.21mm off the head to get a 1.0mm squish and a 32 blowdown.

I need to reconfirm the transfer below deck measurements again, and I'll try to work out how to do the port area measurements everyone seems to understand and do so easily. This is where my art background cannot keep up with others who are better at more advanced maths.

I mean of course I am going to go through all of this.. its apart and ready to be done. Just a matter of locking down the target numbers for everything first!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:57 pm quote
Plenty of work for you to do but one more thing is measure the exact stroke of your crank. It may be 60mm but usually only nearly 60mm, which does change things slightly.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 591
Location: california
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:21 am quote
Quote:
'll try to work out how to do the port area measurements everyone seems to understand and do so easily.
Swiss - others can comment on this one as well - but here is a no math manual means for some decent measures.

For arc - trace exhaust port with inserted paper taped in place so it is firm and you get an accurate edge showing from pencil rub. Use a sharp pencil - and your art skills - to get a good depiction. Then pull paper, lay flat, and measure width. Pay attention when tracing to what you are actually tracing as the dark line that creates the online of the exhaust port can be thick enough to change your measure by a full mm or more (so you want to know if you are measuring to the middle of the dark line, its inside, or its outside).

For cord - clean cyl wall and stretch tape as crow flies across port. mark with razor knife or very fine pen where edges are. may help to do it from entering through exhaust stub with marker if you can. then pull tape and measure that distance.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:53 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
'll try to work out how to do the port area measurements everyone seems to understand and do so easily.
Swiss - others can comment on this one as well - but here is a no math manual means for some decent measures.

For arc - trace exhaust port with inserted paper taped in place so it is firm and you get an accurate edge showing from pencil rub. Use a sharp pencil - and your art skills - to get a good depiction. Then pull paper, lay flat, and measure width. Pay attention when tracing to what you are actually tracing as the dark line that creates the online of the exhaust port can be thick enough to change your measure by a full mm or more (so you want to know if you are measuring to the middle of the dark line, its inside, or its outside).

For cord - clean cyl wall and stretch tape as crow flies across port. mark with razor knife or very fine pen where edges are. may help to do it from entering through exhaust stub with marker if you can. then pull tape and measure that distance.
Thanks! I'll get to this some day. Just signed lease on new apartment and have to move on days off over next two weeks. Always something preventing this stuff from finishing.

At least I'll be right across the street from my garage now.

While waiting for new landlord to show up, I took some measurements of the case and the area that needs grinding to match. Looks like I will only have to worry about breaking through case in one small spot. So I will fill the outside of the case in that cavity with some jb weld. I tried using the jb weld putty once on the automatic Stella project and it came off too easily, didn't really stick or work. Is there a trick to getting this stuff to set permanently or should I use the liquid jb weld instead?

IMG_20190914_115147.jpg
Cavity on the outside of where I'll be grinding ports

IMG_20190914_114711.jpg
How close the outer cavity comes to where I'll be grinding

IMG_20190914_114830.jpg
There is about 1.54mm of case before breaking through. So I'll fill the outer cavity with jb weld as precaution.

IMG_20190914_115123.jpg
I'll be grinding this deep. So I might also need to fill a little in here near the oil mix gears as long as it doesn't interfere with anything.

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 591
Location: california
Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:16 pm quote
Swiss
My $.02.
1. That cavity is perfect for JB weld. It will be contained on 3 sides - just have cases on side when you poor it in after mixing and let gravity do its job. You are going to want to touch the JB weld and skim it. Don't. Gravity will have it set up really nicely with a clean flat edge. You can use the 5 min type to cut a little time - and after about 5 min when it kicks off - you can razor away any screw ups or drips.
To ensure good bonding, scrub that cavity and then wipe down with mineral spirits or the like. Sucff it with a screwdriver or utility knife too if you wanna - to give JB something to grip to. Brake cleaner would give it a good blast - and make that cleanout job easier. You want zero grease of course when you are done...
2. I would not cut the wall between the crank case and the cavity where the oil pump gear resides. Not worth it in my view. Too high risk of future failure due to heat/twisting/expansion, etc. You will not feel any difference in performance from steering clear of that tiny amount of ground area - and never have to worry about it.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:13 pm quote
I've always been a proponent to actual welding, rather than JB weld. The hardest part (if you don't own a welder that can do alloy), is finding someone who does. It's about 15 minutes of setting up the welder and prepping the cases, then another 5 minutes of actual welding time. I can't bring myself to use JB weld on anything. I just don't see it as a 100% permanent fix for anything. At the same time, i'm not going to judge ya'll if you do.
Member
05 STELLA 2T
Joined: 10 Oct 2013
Posts: 6
Location: Hurricane WV
Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:58 pm quote
What is pbt ?
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:12 pm quote
Piston below top. Measure the distance from top of cylinder to piston when it is at top dead center. Then measure the distance from head bottom to the top of head on the side where the gap is smallest to get the head squish distance. Combine the two to get total squish of your setup... Instead of doing the solder squish test.
Rallies Europe 2016   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous123...91011
[ Time: 0.3397s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0594s) ][ Debug on ]