Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:33 pm quote
Don't think we've seen the new piston yet. These rings are even better. Theoretically they will go quite a bit over 70%. Also the it says 1st o/s is 61.4, so a little bit more security on the %.

Whats the worst that can happen? The powerband might be a little violent and it might go too fast
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:40 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Don't think we've seen the new piston yet. These rings are even better. Theoretically they will go quite a bit over 70%. Also the it says 1st o/s is 61.4, so a little bit more security on the %.

Whats the worst that can happen? The powerband might be a little violent and it might go too fast
The new piston is 1st oversized and came with 1st oversized rings. So yes, you just made me realize.. my current 60.95 bore dimension is what we've been basing our 70% on, when it should probably be whatever the eventual rebored diameter is that will probably be slightly larger than 61.4mm whatever that is. And at that point, there is no way I could go to exactly 70% exhaust width, cause then I would definitely break through the outer wall.

Worst is that I go too far and break into the stud hole or outside world. Ha! But yes, I've been warned that my squish might be too shallow for the current timing and power and the engine might run hot. I am planning on a 0.1mm-0.2mm head gasket to bring the timing down to 125 from 126 currently, so I hope that plus the cleanup of head when I take it to a machinist brings squish to around 1.35mm.

It was also suggested that I could potentially aid in cooling not only by getting squish around 1.35mm, but also lowering the intake port? Not sure if the intake port is the big hole on the piston when facing up towards carb, or if its the corresponding port on the cylinder directly opposite the exhaust port? If so, which one, which direction is lowering and by how much would be safe?

My two fears after the previous disaster..
1.) jetting mistake leading to another seize
2.) as previously, cylinder/piston won't stay cool under 300F like you suggested it should.

Now that I am starting to understand the violence you have me headed in terms of powerband, I am wondering if my 24/24 carb is going to be a problem. I was really not looking to go to premix and a 30mm carb just yet.

I bought the SIP 24/24 carb with opened fuel flow as well as the fast flow tap specifically to get enough fuel flow to prevent a serious issue.
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Location: california
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:08 pm quote
Swiss.
Looking good.
Will leave the port sizing to Jack.
For leveling your port - have a quick look at this method - he uses a ring.
If you don't have an old ring to use - perhaps use ring to mark a line - could also work.
Good luck!
-CM
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:52 pm quote
If you aim for not more than 46mm width it will keep it under 70%. This is plenty for a first go.

Which Malossi is that piston out of? Is it the ally one? Lucky they make so many. Are those 0.8mm rings?

Be sure the top edge of the port is straight. This is important. Use an old ring like in the video if you like but be sure it’s straight. And not over either.

Not sure where this 1.35mm squish idea comes from. The squish on this should be less than 1.0mm. 0.8mm is about the least on an iron bore. All those dents on the old piston were because the squish was too big, not too small.

A 26/26 would have been better and still run autolube but the 24/24 will be like a 26/26 on ¾ throttle. You’ll be happy enough for a while. Did you get a kit to raise the float level?

Transfer timing at 125 will work. Any more than that is taking a risk but as you have a 60mm crank and a 57mm cylinder there is quite a lot of room to move. When my 221 eventually sings again it will be on revision 13 for this cylinder and different packers each time.

I am sure Jetting will be easier this time, it has to be
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:56 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss.
Looking good.
Will leave the port sizing to Jack.
For leveling your port - have a quick look at this method - he uses a ring.
If you don't have an old ring to use - perhaps use ring to mark a line - could also work.
Good luck!
-CM
Good video, CM! I have been using the paper template as a guide in the same way. I just stopped before evening it out at the last sliver cause I was getting nervous about going too far in the center as I was working the corners to their marks cause I got the center to its mark way faster than the rest. I'm gonna try this technique after I do another round with the updated width template, leaving the top alone until the sides are wider. Then I'll use a ring to level out the top line to correct timing mark.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:00 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Not sure where this 1.35mm squish idea comes from. The squish on this should be less than 1.0mm. 0.8mm is about the least on an iron bore. All those dents on the old piston were because the squish was too big, not too small.
No clue. I don't know enough yet to confidently understand what makes a squish good vs bad. But reminder that my head is an aluminum head as well. Which had it's own battle scars from the seize.
Jack221 wrote:
A 26/26 would have been better and still run autolube but the 24/24 will be like a 26/26 on ¾ throttle. You’ll be happy enough for a while. Did you get a kit to raise the float level?
I got this carb:
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/carburettor+dellortospaco+by_285204t7

listed as "fitted with a bigger valve in the float chamber cover and a float needle with a diameter of 5.2mm. In addition, the supply hole in the carburettor is drilled out from 1.5mm to 1.8mm (PX177) or 2.0mm (PX200)"
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:46 am quote
Grind v02 done.

Flattened the top out as best I could. Didn't use the ring trick, just stuck with my paper template and some 120 grit sandpaper bits.

Widened port to 46mm.. but stayed a sliver shy of template on both sides so my end result is 45.35mm arc width. With an expected rebore of 61.6mm diameter, I think my current exhaust port is 67.14%. I also realized that when I get it re-bored, the width might shrink a little because the cuts are on an angle and not straight back, so as the cylinder gets bored, it eats into that exhaust width and works down the angle in the tube to become slightly less wide.

I think I am good here and will go get it rebored now. Then take new measurements and install the correct piston to measure the piston top at BDC so I can get more accurate with the exhaust bottom lowering line. At that point, I may also try to slightly widen the exhaust port to get closer to 46mm, but it was getting difficult to angle the dremel extension tool into those wider sides because the dremel tool was blocked by the exhaust tube from really getting in there at that tighter angle/wider port.

By the way, CM, I watched that video and that guy suggests not going to town opening up the exhaust tube thinking it will allow greater airflow out.. cause the narrowing in the tube he says is needed to create airflow speed out of the cylinder into the exhaust. The narrowing accelerates the air as it squeezes through. So I left the exhaust tube as it was, with only the grinding smoothing to ease my face profile in.

New exhaust top measurements were 32.82mm center top, 32.83 right top, 32.78mm left top. Avg of the whole top is 32.81mm which is spot on for 185 timing (with a 0.1mm head gasket added to lower timings from 186 to 185).

malossi166_grind_v02.jpg

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malossi166_grind_v02_overoriginal.jpg
original vs newest profile



Last edited by swiss1939 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:18 pm quote
wow swiss that turned out very clean nice job!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:17 pm quote
Came out really well. Who would know it was your first go. Slightly less on the width will be little issue. Top is straight enough. Going to perform in a different league to before.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:44 pm quote
Impressive!
And couple great head's up for my job.
In particular - the toughness to reach the edge of the port when grinding - before grinding out interior.
My 90degree tool is too wide to fit - so I may try and alter.
But I have also picked up 100+ MM length grinding burr in my favorite shape - that might help me reach.
We will see.
Nice work - pscyhed to see how it runs.
-CM
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:03 am quote
Thanks guys. I'm OCD about smooth edges. Took a lot of restraint not to try to get the top exactly even to the .01mm. I had to force myself to leave it alone cause I didn't want to get into a situation where I was going back and forth trying to flatten it out perfectly and then going too far for timing.

CM, I didn't realize you could get longer bit stems. A longer stem bit than the ones I had would make it that much easier. I needed another half an inch to inch. They were basically almost at the right spot for where I preferred to position the cutting edge, and as I tried to it to the sweet spot I'd just be hitting the opposite wall in the other end of the tube where my hand was holding the back of the tool. The grinding bits that came with my dremel kinda sucked, and the sanding wheel bit I used was a dremel bit with short stem so I couldn't really get the curved sides so I only did the top and bottom flats with sanding disc. I bought a couple grinding bit sets on amazon that had longer stems, but not long enough. What I ended up having to do was put the bit into the dremel just enough to safely hold it firmly, but leaving most of the stem out of the dremel so it could reach far enough. Technique also required cutting with the direction of the cutting edge as it cuts all the time (bit spins clockwise, so cut from right to left), especially when working the face of the hole. Don't use too much pressure, just firm light pressure.. and try to do it in sections, but not too small of a section. Just enough that you can get a single smooth motion across the whole cut section every time, and not too far that you will falter. Stopping or slowing down in one spot will create a dip in the cut. This keeps the edges very clean. I also found working the tip in different ways helps for different angles/sections. the bit I used was the slightly pointy/slightly rounded pear/qtip shaped ones. I would use the larger back half for the most part. The narrower tip section would jump around too much. In the corners and side walls I would start at the top just as the corner starts, hold the bit slightly out of the hole into the cylinder so that the fatter section of the tip could really come down onto the edge and cut.. then when cutting really try to scoop (using your wrist more than your arm) the corner and curve out following what you want the desired curve angle to be instead of just pressing and dragging and following what you see. It was a slow and steady scoop motion that traveled generally from start of corner to middle of side wall, then stop to reset and do it again or reset to finish the other corner down to bottom. Don't try to go too deep or too far of a cut in one go. Work it to the end goal in many slices. I also stopped constantly to just look and examine which gives your hands a rest.



I used this bit and the similar ones two and 3 to the left of it. I prefered the bits slightly rounded in middle of bit. Do not use the pointy triangle one two to the right of highlighted one.. it digs in shallow bumps. Also do not use the two on the far left, you may think the rounded end of the square one second from left would work, but it just jumps, creates divots and takes big bites out of the metal compared to the ones I used. The two I used have pointy enough edges to get the shapes you need, but have the rounded cutting spot on the bit in the middle of the bit, which is where it cuts best/smoothest without jumping and grabbing.

This was the kit I bought:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N5LEZ7H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

And after two-three hours of cutting with that highlighted bit 90% of the time, it is still perfect and sharp. These bits will last a long time. The ones that came with my dremel kit, or spares that I bought sold as dremel in home depot all chewed up and dulled after very short times when grinding other aluminum items.

Also, this is critical to do this work as I would not have been able to fit and reach in there with just the dremel tool by itself:
https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-225-01-Flex-Shaft-Attachment/dp/B0000302Y8/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1ZE1FMA7ZM5DE&keywords=dremel+extension+shaft&qid=1573046255&s=hi&sprefix=dremel+ex%2Ctools%2C133&sr=1-4

BTW, I'm expecting to have to constantly fight not doing wheelies in first and second now! Also definitely need the superstrong clutch after this.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:23 am quote
Cases dropped off for vapor blasting
Took both the p200 and the stella 150 cases to a shop down the other end of SI this morning to get vapor blasted. $120 for both engine cases, pickup on Tuesday my next day off.

Also tried to go to the machine shop a few miles away to drop the cylinder kit off, but they weren't open yet. They open at 3:30pm today, so I will stop by then and see what the cost is to get re-bored to 1st os, honing, chamfer and head damage cleaned up. Hopefully under $100 for that, and also ready by Tuesday. If so, then this upgraded stella might be back on the road by December!

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stella engine case prior to vapor blasting

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P200 engine case prior to vapor blasting

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Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:24 pm quote
I finally got in touch with the machinist in my neighborhood today and took the cylinder kit to him. He was unsure of the tolerances as he's never seen vespa cylinders before, but said he would try calling wiseco who is the largest piston dealer in US for atv and dirtbikes to see if they have any info on tolerances. He is unsure if he can do the work as he wants specific info about the tolerances before he can do it. I tried contacting malossi a month or so ago to ask about these tolerances and got no response.

The stock cylinder is 61mm, or as I measured it 60.95mm. The 1st os piston is listed as 61.4mm, or as I measured it, 61.2mm. He did not want to trust the stock piston to take measurements from as it was seized and said its unreliable.
Does anyone here know what the piston to bore and ring tolerances are supposed to be for a 166 1st oversized? Also I know I read it in a thread on here somewhere but can't find it right now... exactly where you are supposed to measure the diameter of the piston and the bore? I think it was just above the cudgeon pin on the piston and something like 5mm above the transfer port?

Aside from that, he said he would not do any cleanup work on the cylinder head as he doesn't want to mess with the squish. But he did suggest I should clean it up with 60, 80, 120 grit sandpaper roll on my dremel. He seemed concerned that the head damage would still glow and create ignition even after cleanup.

So I am inching forward with this cylinder re-bore... at least a guy who knows what he is doing is trying to figure out if he has enough info to re-bore it. But again, if anyone here knows what proper tolerances should be, please do share!

EDIT: I've poured over all the documents I can find on SIP and malossi for this kit and the only mention of tolerances that I can find are where it says this: " Cylinder and piston selected for a 100% fit of 0.010-0.005 mm."
but I don't know if that is the fit of the piston to bore, or if that just means that they are matched to within 0.010-0.005mm of the correct tolerances, whatever that is.

malinstr.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:47 pm quote
Piston is measured at the skirt and the final finish of the re-bore should be 10 to 12 thou bigger than the piston skirt.
Surprised your guy doesn't know this but if it gets the cylinder bored.

Edit: This is for loose which works well on an iron bore, although officially this should be more like 8 thou.
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Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:32 pm quote
Quote:
I am planning on a 0.1mm-0.2mm head gasket to bring the timing down to 125 from 126 currently
I made this error in logic as well (repeatedly).
head gasket will not change timing.
Timing is always a measure from top of cylinder.
Squish will get altered.

If you want to change timing - have to address with packer under cylinder to lift or lower.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:08 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Piston is measured at the skirt and the final finish of the re-bore should be 10 to 12 thou bigger than the piston skirt.
Surprised your guy doesn't know this but if it gets the cylinder bored.

Edit: This is for loose which works well on an iron bore, although officially this should be more like 8 thou.
thou as in thousands of an inch?

10-12 thou of an inch = 0.254-0.304mm for loose iron bore
Or
0.203mm for official tolerances.

Assuming loose helps reduce risk of seize.

Regarding the guy, who knows... never met him until today and he seems like he's been doing cylinder work on cars for decades, but just never touched a vespa before. I can respect someone who wants details specific for the item. He even mentioned wanting to make sure either the boring blade or honing tool (can't remember which he was talking about) he has is safe to use in the bore, making sure it would not chew up the edges of the port openings as it passes through open gaps back into contact with material.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:55 pm; edited 4 times in total
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:10 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
I am planning on a 0.1mm-0.2mm head gasket to bring the timing down to 125 from 126 currently
I made this error in logic as well (repeatedly).
head gasket will not change timing.
Timing is always a measure from top of cylinder.
Squish will get altered.

If you want to change timing - have to address with packer under cylinder to lift or lower.
Ahh damn that means I probably have more work to do. I know that raising the PBT from flush with top (0), to slightly over top at (0.1mm) with adjust the timing from 126/186 to 125/185 which is where I need to be. I'm trying to visualize the changes required and what it alters right now. My details are below:

CURRENT
126/186 timing
Base gasket: 1.5mm
PBT: 0
Head Gasket: none
Squish: 1.14mm (lets just assume this.. it may be slightly more as I used the old piston to measure PBT, and I still need to clean up the head damage slightly).

NEW SETUP (to get correct times)
125/185 timing
Base Gasket: 1.4mm
PBT: +0.1mm (sticking out the top slightly)
Head Gasket: none
Squish: 1.13mm

Now with this new setup.. and piston peeking out the top of the cylinder slightly 0.1mm.. will the piston hit the head if the head has 1.14mm of gap that makes up the squish? So as long as I do not raise the piston 1mm or more out of the cylinder, the piston will not be striking the head? Thus I can get a smaller squish by not adding a head gasket?

Or if head gasket is required to prevent piston from striking head as a result of PBT +0.1mm, then adding a 0.1mm head gasket keeps the piston from striking the head, and keeps the squish at 1.14 as it was prior to raising the piston out of the cylinder slightly?

EDIT: I need to measure the head, because I think the head gasket may be necessary given the re-bore, the 1st os piston is wider than the stock piston, so I assume the flat base of the head just outside where the combustion section of the head will not be wide enough for the new piston.. so any raising of the piston above top of cylinder will cause it to strike that flat section of the head. Or maybe I am wrong?

ANOTHER EDIT!: Actually, I re-examined the timing calculator I've been using to calculate all of this. What I noticed is that I always use the rounding check box when entering numbers. If I have rounding enabled, my current measurements with 1.5mm base gasket and PBT at 0, I get 126/186 times. But if I disable rounding, I get 125,65º/185,58º/29,96º. If I change the PBT to +0.1mm with rounding off, I get 124,65º/184,86º/30,10º. Should I even bother with messing with this? Will it make that much of a difference, or is it close enough to be done with?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1557
Location: London UK
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:40 pm quote
Wouldn't worry about this too much until you have the new piston. Only one thing is for sure and that is the PBT will be different on the new one. Similar but not the same. Could go either way.

Heads have clearance for negative PBT and should just about be ok. And if not you have a Dremel and not scared to use it.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:07 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Wouldn't worry about this too much until you have the new piston.

Heads have clearance for negative PBT and should just about be ok. And if not you have a Dremel and not scared to use it.
Ha! great way to put it in perspective. Just fix it myself if it is an issue!
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:44 pm quote
My confusion regarding bore to piston tolerances were because I was not sure if each manufacturer has their own tolerances for different barrels and when the machinist asked if I knew, I had no specific answer.

Given your suggestion that it is officially 8 thou but performs well at 10 to 12 thou, I started wondering if that is a constant tolerance for the full range of bore sizes a vespa engine could be fit with. I just realized I could check these stock figures in my Haynes manual, so I went back and checked what it lists vespa 150/200 engine tolerances and I think it provides clarification that they are all very close in tolerance enough to use the same figures for 58, 61, 63 or 66mm bores, regardless of manufacturer.

The haynes manual lists stock 150 cc tolerances as such:

stock bore: 57.8mm
stock piston: 57.585mm
calculated tolerance: 0.215mm
each subsequent os bore: +0.2mm

and the haynes manual lists stock 200 cc tolerances as such:

stock bore: 66.5mm
stock piston: 66.292mm
calculated tolerance: 0.208mm
each subsequent os bore: +0.2mm

so my 61mm malossi bore, if using same tolerances as stock iron bore would be between 0.208-0.215mm larger than skirt, just as Jack has been helpful with providing the official figure. And slightly looser 10-12 thou (0.254-0.304mm) would still be fine as mentioned.

This also lines up with my own measurements of existing bore being 0.200mm larger than the damaged standard piston.

EDIT: Linked below, there is actually very detailed specs listed in the specific topic of that chapter of the Haynes manual, besides the rough outlines provided above which came from the overview technical details at the start of the chapter.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/N5B49MzJigGZLKgi9

vespa_cylinder_measurements.jpg
how to measure cylinder and piston diameter

vespa_cylinder_tolerances.jpg
bore and piston sizing/tolerances

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:41 am quote
Just got cases back from vapor blasting guy. $60/each. I found his instagram page after dropping them off and he does a ton of high polished finished parts for custom cars as well as chroming. Most of his work is not local but shipped. Lots of rims. So when I picked the cases up I asked what it would take to bring the exterior of one of these cases to high polished finish or chroming. He said he could do high polish mirror finish for around $300 and a chrome plating for $600.

If anyone on east coast is looking for vapor blasting or chroming..
https://www.instagram.com/nbp_nick/
https://nicksblastingandpolishing.com/

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LML flywheel side

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lml

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LML big side

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LML

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P200 small side. all the oxidation gone!

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p200

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P200 big side

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P200

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P200

Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:36 am quote
Trying to get the silent blocks back in is a pain. Even with soap and using threaded rod with washers and bolts to pull them into place. The rear one for slightly chewed up on one side but it's in fine. The front ones I got one in mostly but it's not going in flush and slightly crooked kind his the original one that I pulled out was, so I'm thinking the case may be slightly off and causes it to seat like that. I'll do the other side of front part. Probably doesn't help it's just above freezing in garage and I didn't try heating up the case where the mount goes in. I might try to sightly heat the other side up before putting that one in to see if that would have made it easier.

I will say the LML front silent blocks I got from sip had Chinese or Taiwan text on package and seems very cheap compared to original. So maybe they are not exactly right size despite saying so. They also do not come with the metal ring caps that the originals had, which were held on by punching the inner tube out slightly with divots.

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Used an old bearing revived from this engine as leverage on the other side.

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Slightly chewed up from the washer used to keep the rubber from sliding out as the metal tube was pushed in

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Front mount's smaller side can't get in all the way and slightly crooked

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Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:02 pm quote
Bad news. Machinist I took cylinder to said it's too small for his boring machine and said he wouldn't do it on his Bridgeport. So I'm on the hunt for another machinist who can do it. Got a lead on another one from the blasting and polishing guy today. I'm gonna try getting in touch with his referral tomorrow.

If this guy tomorrow doesn't work out then I'm willing to ship this thing to a shop that does this work.
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Posts: 689
Location: california
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:42 pm quote
Frustrating. Know I thew it out there before - but is there a snow mobile repair center near you? Lots of hot-rodders in that world - imagine cylinder boring of 2 stroke is common.

Suggestion on silent blocks.
Heat is your friend.
I am endlessly knocked out by just how much expansion you get when warming the case.
Since that area is thick - heat area and let it soak in a bit - spread - then heat again - inside and out - as evenly as possible.
Let your silent blocks stay cool in garage - grease them up - they should pull right in.

Cases are the envy of all.
Look great.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:21 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Frustrating. Know I thew it out there before - but is there a snow mobile repair center near you? Lots of hot-rodders in that world - imagine cylinder boring of 2 stroke is common.

Suggestion on silent blocks.
Heat is your friend.
I am endlessly knocked out by just how much expansion you get when warming the case.
Since that area is thick - heat area and let it soak in a bit - spread - then heat again - inside and out - as evenly as possible.
Let your silent blocks stay cool in garage - grease them up - they should pull right in.

Cases are the envy of all.
Look great.
I'm gonna try this another day. Too frustrated with them to deal with it right now. I've learned not to mess with it if it is pissing me off cause I make it worse.

As it is now, I think the one I got in is a little messed up but it's in there. I'm leaving it and will ride with it as its at least solid rubber and not destroyed like the previous one. It can't be too bad as long as I get the other one in good. I'll replace it later on if it becomes a problem.
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:38 pm quote
But what I did do today was go get a tour of the local makerspace to see what metal machining equipment they have and how I can get access to it all. $150/yr membership and 40/day to use the metal machine shop. Also need to get the main machine shop assistant to teach me how to use each machine before I can use it. That costs an hourly rate for private lesson and said the bridgeport and lathe would take a few days to go over everything before I would be cleared to use it all. They also have tons of welders and metal band saws, basically everything you need to do machining, aside from a boring bar of course!

Then I talked to the motorcycle shops near me aside from the ATV shop that couldn't help me with bore. None of the shops can do this. I called the local Vespa dealership in Brooklyn and they don't even deal with re-boring 2 stroke vespa cylinders anymore. So I threw my hands up with trying to find a local place that could do it.

I pm'ed Gickspeed here on MV and asked about shipping my cylinder to him for re-bore. He responded fast and is happy to help. I'll be mailing my cylinder and piston to him in the morning with a 1-2 week turnaround after receipt on his end. Better than seeking out machinists who can't do it locally.

I went back to my garage and didn't want to deal with the silent blocks so I used the sanding disc on dremel to clean up the head as best I could. I also went to town on removing the rivets on the primary drive so I could replace the springs and bearing. Went through 3 drill bits to get those damn rivets out of the christmas tree, but it's done. Also swapped out the original LML springs for DRT re-inforced strong springs. The LML ones were still good, but definitely not as strong and also did not come with smaller springs inside them. DRT springs are double springs and way tougher to get in and out than the LML originals. I can't even use my own strength to make the primary tree move with those springs in. I could just barely do it with the LML springs.

Primary drive went into the ultrasonic cleaner and as parts came out, I re-lubed with 2t oil and used a small dollop of grease on the inner gear teeth that slide between the christmas tree inner gears. Figured that couldn't hurt to give just a little grease for those contact points that move slightly as the springs are compressed. Everything on the primary drive going back fine now.

IMG_20191113_101509.jpg
rough life ended on a freezing day for this guy outside the local makerspace. Over 2" long this sucker!

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dremel with 80/120 grit sanding discs to clean this up. a little lumpy but its as good as it gets from me today.

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still better than before sanding. measured all around and it didn't affect squish much along the edge, but im sure its uneven around the middle.

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got the aluminum shim set from mcmaster today. More than enough to make gaskets for a lifetime in enough sizes to get by.

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full length of aluminum shims. 10 sheets various thicknesses.

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christmas tree taken apart with LML springs.

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cleaned up and installing drt strong springs.

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double springs now instead of the single large springs from LML.

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dollop of grease on the inner teeth just in case.

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ready to close it up with new plates and rivets.

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peened over rivets.

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back together. stronger.

Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 630
Location: California
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:40 pm quote
excellent swiss!
Molto Verboso
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Mal 177 MKIII in pieces
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1128
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:17 pm quote
Cylinder delivered to gickspeed today. John is gonna re-bore it, open up the boost port and clean up my exhaust work a little.

Getting there slowly. Been months since I rode. Getting antsy, and cold out.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 689
Location: california
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:26 pm quote
Nice job on the primary.
Cylinder will surely come back with perfect fit from Gick.
Wise.
Everyone jealous of the like new casings post vapor blast.
Very nice.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1315
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:04 am quote
Most excellent Swiss - great job!
Hooked
‘64 V90 survivor, ‘75 V90 graffiti
Joined: 30 May 2018
Posts: 186
Location: Madison WI
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:12 pm quote
Swiss
Good decision to send it to Gickspeed. Jonathan has built two motors for me.
His attention to detail is outstanding
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7339
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:30 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
....
Getting there slowly. Been months since I rode. Getting antsy, and cold out.
Ouch! I'm sure this should all work out in a few more months or could be next year...
Now do you see the problem with having only two bikes?


Here's a job I love to hate. Yours came out great.

Looking back in your thread I was reminded of an old idea to have 6 narrow slots in the covers riveted on both sides so you could inspect for spring breakage. Narrow, so broken pieces don't escape.


Cross Egypt Challenge - A 2400km ride throughout Egypt   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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