Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:16 pm quote
V oodoo, Yeah I'm full of humble on this whole thing and crawling much slower than someone who has done even 5 of these rebuilds, but also refuse to stop until it's done. It's just funny how many different peoples videos I've watched to learn every trick or mistake to avoid and every time someone says "hopefully it just slides on" or "hopefully this doesn't happen". That's my cue to expect exactly the thing their luck avoids to hit me in the face. Good thing is, all these hurdles that I fear happening when I get to that stage, actually do happen to me and I'm forced to deal with it and learn how to solve it. So I guess that's a better education than it going perfectly and not realizing how to solve these hiccups. I'm getting exactly what I asked for when I decided I wanted to learn how to work on these awesome scooters.

I expect to be able to get this thing on fine, just need the proper drift as I don't have anything that can safely drift this thing down without damaging the shaft or the race. I did heat it up while on the shaft and lightly tap it against my body with a blunt edge punch tool to at least straighten it out instead of being cock-eyed. I will wait to get the drift to really hammer it home, using sausage's other method of holding it against your body and using your body to absorb the taps of the drift.

sdjohn, I checked scooter mercato website and did not see it listed. I will call them tomorrow and see if they have it available to order.

Either way, all the bearings and seals are in the case and the cases are ready to go. Now i'm paused on prepping the crankshaft to finally finish this rebuild. I am hoping once the crankshaft is ready to go, the rest of the engine falls together fast, as I believe this is the most difficult part. But I guess, I shall see...

BTW, I suspect this may be me (with a $#!* eating grin) once this thing is running again and confidently jetted/run in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md66KM827o4

and if I fail miserably.. then this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:41 pm quote
It's out of stock. I got in touch with Jonathan Gick and he has one in stock he will send me tomorrow.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4286
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:44 pm quote
crap I didn't even look at that before posting!

don't forget the spacer tool:
http://www.scootermercato.com/Scooter-Parts/Factory-Tools/SPACER
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:48 pm quote
Yeah I have the spacer. I was so close.. until I wasn't!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1668
Location: London UK
Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:59 am quote
This can be a tough one to do. Careful not to overheat it. If you support the crank with a bar through the webs, they tap on easy enough when warm. Keep at it.

Horse song hilarious. F%@in pikies
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:42 pm quote
Here's another good one.. this time South African.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcXNPI-IPPM

Crankshaft race mounting tool on the way.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:02 pm quote
are you certain you live in Staton Island?

Bearings can be a bigger struggle then imagined/ shown on youtube.
Wrestled with this myself.
Jack's suggestion an important one.
If you have to pressure the bearing on or off of the crank - having the web supported is key - and makes the work very solid.

I used a piece of thick steel hanging off the edge of my workbench.
Clamped on the bench top - and poking out like a diving board.
Slid the crank on with the steel "diving board" portion between the webs - allowing the web to rest on it.
Allowed me to press the bearing on knowing I was not altering the crank balance.
Made the crank very stable.
You might find it helpful.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:13 am quote
You wanna post a pic of this problem child?
charlieman22 wrote:
....
If you have to pressure the bearing on or off of the crank - having the web supported is key - and makes the work very solid.

I used a piece of thick steel hanging off the edge of my workbench.
Clamped on the bench top - and poking out like a diving board.
Slid the crank on with the steel "diving board" portion between the webs - allowing the web to rest on it.
Allowed me to press the bearing on knowing I was not altering the crank balance.
Made the crank very stable.
You might find it helpful.
and
V oodoo wrote:
....

PS Get some thick gloves and get involved, don't just drop it on next time. You have some seconds to get it right if you're ready enough. ... Have a piece of plastic pipe & light mallet handy to smack it home safely maybe, while supporting the web.
Get a piece of heavy PVC pipe just big enough to slip over the crank and be sure the business end at the bearing is true and square. This will ensure that it goes on aligned. With the web well supported you can try to move it safely. If it's obviously cocked bad, I would be tempted to hold it in my lap and give the extreme uphill tip of the bearing inner race a sharp smack with a long drift and a medium lite hammer after giving it a shot of penetrating oil. Teach it a lesson!

Once it's straight, try the pipe and a bigger hammer. This has worked for me more than once. You could carefully clamp the crank to the support bar too, for a more stable target. I suppose you could also try spray chill on the crank inside the web while covering the bearing and working fast. Should be easy enough unless maybe you have crank AND bearing tolerances stacked up the wrong way against you and a pretty tight fit first time. Is this a new crank?

For support a piece of heavy steel is ideal, but a nice piece of thick hardwood supported both ends can work OK too. Worst case, I've done it across my knees w/ piece of a pallet.
Member
Bajaj 210
Joined: 23 Aug 2018
Posts: 10
Location: Muffspeed, Derry, Ireland
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:48 am quote
A Sundance grip is the perfect size to use as a drift, it`s the only good use they have
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:17 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
You wanna post a pic of this problem child?

If it's obviously cocked bad, I would be tempted to hold it in my lap and give the extreme uphill tip of the bearing inner race a sharp smack with a long drift and a medium lite hammer after giving it a shot of penetrating oil. Teach it a lesson!

Once it's straight, try the pipe and a bigger hammer. This has worked for me more than once. You could carefully clamp the crank to the support bar too, for a more stable target. I suppose you could also try spray chill on the crank inside the web while covering the bearing and working fast. Should be easy enough unless maybe you have crank AND bearing tolerances stacked up the wrong way against you and a pretty tight fit first time. Is this a new crank?

For support a piece of heavy steel is ideal, but a nice piece of thick hardwood supported both ends can work OK too. Worst case, I've done it across my knees w/ piece of a pallet.
This is what I've done. Heated up the race while on the crank and used a flat punch to lightly tap it from severely tilted to nearly flush while holding it against my body. I will send it home using the metal sheet as support once I get the tool in the mail. PVC would work and is a good tip, but I've already got the proper tool in the mail. I thought about PVC but wasn't sure if I would be able to find exactly the right diameter pipe, so instead of spending a couple days looking for that I just got the tool from Gickspeed.

Sundance grip.. yes I saw that in sausage's videos but tracking down a sundance grip would be more difficult for me than the proper tool!

All tips are appreciated and I will get it sorted out later on this week. Didn't grab a photo yet. I'll post one tonight.
Hooked
P Series / Li / LML / Motobi
Joined: 24 Jun 2019
Posts: 137
Location: UK - 3rd Rock From the Sun
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:01 am quote
I pull mine through using an old clutch inner and spacer plate
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1418
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:03 am quote
Swiss, where do you find these vids!?! Bwahahaha. I've got nothing to comment on, except the vids were hilarious!
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:53 am quote
Gravelrash2004 wrote:
I pull mine through using an old clutch inner and spacer plate
You are talking about pulling the crankshaft into the clutch side bearing right?

I've got the tool for that. My holdup right now is the bearing race onto the crankshaft fly side arm.

If that's what you are talking about doing with clutch inner then I'm curious to see photos or video how you install the race like that. Haven't seen anyone do it that way yet.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:59 am quote
qascooter wrote:
Swiss, where do you find these vids!?! Bwahahaha. I've got nothing to comment on, except the vids were hilarious!
A lifetime of art school and internet rabbit holes. Ha!

Die Antwoord ended up in the movie chappie which was basically an extended version of one of their music videos. Which makes sense, cause Neil Blomkamp is South African and all his movies share their visual sensibilities.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:27 pm quote
Yes this is a brand new crankshaft. Here it is giving me the finger.

IMG_20191205_191605.jpg

IMG_20191205_191612.jpg

Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2079

Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:31 pm quote
is it an optical illusion that the inner race is blue? Because it looks to have been cooked!
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:38 pm quote
It is. I was expecting and waiting for someone to confirm that mistake. At least that is the least expensive one I've made on this rebuild. I'm sure you guys have noticed by now what I'm doing here. I'm tryin' to make every mistake you possibly can on my first rebuild. So that I can learn from them all and never make them again! Sausage said look for the color change. I took it too far when trying to fix the tilt after it got stuck.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:01 pm quote
You gonna replace it then? It's likely partially annealed and no longer as hard as it wants to be.

And CAUTION, some of us do dumb stuff two or three times before we learn, and sometimes NEVER learn NOT to do that stupid thing!

I have a LARGE 10 year collection of sheared flyside woodruff keys, most contributed by me. You know why...

Last edited by V oodoo on Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:10 pm quote
Oh hey.. Thank you both Chandlerman and V oodoo by way of V oodoo's Tips 'n Tricks 2.0 thread http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2184123#2184123

This one is perfectly timed and will definitely try this with my crank mounting tool reversed to get the race on cleanly before I use the drift and hopefully it works so the drift and tapping is last resort! I'm assuming this is a variant of what Gravelrash was suggesting. Pro tips!

https://imgur.com/Fx1y3rF

The other good tip gleaned from that thread was FMP mentioned in one of those crankshaft balancing videos that an LML crank is good for practicing balancing them by knocking them out and trying to balance them. I'll eventually have a use for this old LML crank now!
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2079

Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:36 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
It is. I was expecting and waiting for someone to confirm that mistake. At least that is the least expensive one I've made on this rebuild. I'm sure you guys have noticed by now what I'm doing here. I'm tryin' to make every mistake you possibly can on my first rebuild. So that I can learn from them all and never make them again! Sausage said look for the color change. I took it too far when trying to fix the tilt after it got stuck.
A safe way to get metal (steel or aluminum) the right temperature (without overheating it) is to get it just hot enough for your spit to sizzle on it.

...likewise, i suppose if you wanted to freeze the same metals, you'd want it cold enough for your tongue to stick to it.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:43 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
You gonna replace it then? It's likely partially annealed and no longer as hard as it wants to be.

And CAUTION, some of us do dumb stuff two or three times before we learn, and sometimes NEVER learn NOT to do that stupid thing!

I have a LARGE 10 year collection of sheared flyside woodruff keys, most contributed by me. You know why...
Yes I am planning on replacing it. Now the next task to learn is proper removal of said race. Probably much easier that it's not fully on. Saw a video a guy used two short prybars to slide it off by leveraging the prybars against one web while it is supported in a vice to prevent knocking it out of alignment.

I'm gonna take a guess at why.. forgetting to remove the flywheel holder before kick starting? I've done that a few times but luckily didn't really push down hard enough and realized it as soon as there was some resistance.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:11 am quote
Worse.

Just need to get the FW nut 'pretty' tite so you can see if you have spark when it's being all fussy, w/ FW on & off til you stumble on the fix...

Yay, NOW you have spark , now let's see if she'll FIRE UP!

More fun when you have an audience too.

IMG_20191206_002725322.jpg
from the Woodruff key compartment in my goody box.
THREE spare flyside and one clutch, wonder why?
I just toss the pieces in the same place
I have had to use best scruffy one til new ones showed up

Hooked
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 218
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:44 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
It is. I was expecting and waiting for someone to confirm that mistake. At least that is the least expensive one I've made on this rebuild. I'm sure you guys have noticed by now what I'm doing here. I'm tryin' to make every mistake you possibly can on my first rebuild. So that I can learn from them all and never make them again! Sausage said look for the color change. I took it too far when trying to fix the tilt after it got stuck.
I like this thread, I'm just starting to learn about two strokes myself, and I like to learn from others. I run a Biomedical shop and apprenticeship program, I always tell apprentices read the service manual, watch training videos and ask she's that is how you learn.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:44 am quote
EDIT: xxWhodatsxx Sorry, V oodoo.. yeah I can totally understand that. FW on and off trying to get the timing done and FW back on fast definitely leads to forgetting things.
Christopher_55934 wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
It is. I was expecting and waiting for someone to confirm that mistake. At least that is the least expensive one I've made on this rebuild. I'm sure you guys have noticed by now what I'm doing here. I'm tryin' to make every mistake you possibly can on my first rebuild. So that I can learn from them all and never make them again! Sausage said look for the color change. I took it too far when trying to fix the tilt after it got stuck.
I like this thread, I'm just starting to learn about two strokes myself, and I like to learn from others. I run a Biomedical shop and apprenticeship program, I always tell apprentices read the service manual, watch training videos and ask she's that is how you learn.
This is how I learn. This place is my apprenticeship. Watching videos and reading other peoples posts is a good starting point. Then you get your hands dirty and make mistakes to really sink the knowledge in. Thankfully people here are willing to share their knowledge and continue the tradition!

Last edited by swiss1939 on Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1418
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:04 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
This is how I learn. This place is my apprenticeship. Watching videos and reading other peoples posts is a good starting point. Then you get your hands dirty and make mistakes to really sink the knowledge in. Thankfully people here are willing to share their knowledge and continue the tradition!
I love this comment.

I was just talking with a good friend of mine the other day. Back in the late 70's and 80's when you wanted to fix something, there was only a manual, and maybe - maybe a neighbor or friend that has done something similar. I used to go to the library and see what they had. It was all about giving it a shot, or "get your hands dirty".

I remember the satisfaction of following the book to diagnose the issue with our Ford Ranger truck. It was a sealed module on the back of the carb, but it cost $52 from Pep Boys. That was a ton of money back then. I re-ran the book steps to troubleshoot it for hours. Finally bit the bullet and bought the part, and voila, it fixed it!

Now-a-days you can pretty much find a YouTube for anything. It's awesome. And a much better way to learn before digging in. I learn so much better by watching somebody than reading how, then trying it. Also, the global community - learning from experts here on the forum, priceless.
Hooked
P200e
Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 119
Location: Eureka, Ca
Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:15 pm quote
qascooter wrote:
swiss1939 wrote:
This is how I learn. This place is my apprenticeship. Watching videos and reading other peoples posts is a good starting point. Then you get your hands dirty and make mistakes to really sink the knowledge in. Thankfully people here are willing to share their knowledge and continue the tradition!
I love this comment.

I was just talking with a good friend of mine the other day. Back in the late 70's and 80's when you wanted to fix something, there was only a manual, and maybe - maybe a neighbor or friend that has done something similar. I used to go to the library and see what they had. It was all about giving it a shot, or "get your hands dirty".

I remember the satisfaction of following the book to diagnose the issue with our Ford Ranger truck. It was a sealed module on the back of the carb, but it cost $52 from Pep Boys. That was a ton of money back then. I re-ran the book steps to troubleshoot it for hours. Finally bit the bullet and bought the part, and voila, it fixed it!

Now-a-days you can pretty much find a YouTube for anything. It's awesome. And a much better way to learn before digging in. I learn so much better by watching somebody than reading how, then trying it. Also, the global community - learning from experts here on the forum, priceless.
I LOVE the interwebs.
Enthusiast
Vespa Sprint 150
Joined: 17 Jan 2019
Posts: 80
Location: Portland OR
Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:32 pm quote
Just catching up, thanks for the documentation swiss. I'm going to be going down similar roads here soon so It's very appreciated.

Thanks for the videos, that rubberbandits video reminded me of this one:

Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:11 pm quote
Back in Business
qascooter wrote:
Now-a-days you can pretty much find a YouTube for anything. It's awesome. And a much better way to learn before digging in. I learn so much better by watching somebody than reading how, then trying it. Also, the global community - learning from experts here on the forum, priceless.
Yup. Love how easy access to information is. But I wish I had some friends local who I could sit around with in person and pick up practical info from. Its doable but harder over the forum when only using photos!
Iamthegump wrote:
I LOVE the interwebs.
Love it too.
notbenh wrote:
Just catching up, thanks for the documentation swiss. I'm going to be going down similar roads here soon so It's very appreciated.
No problem. I've made enough mistakes for you to have a decent roadmap!

I got the correct race mounting tool from gickspeed and replacement bearing to install a new race. Finally had time today to figure out how to get the old race off and new one on.

I tried two ways to remove and two ways to install. First way to remove was using two pry bars and heating the stuck race then trying to pry the race off as I saw in a youtube video. I quickly confirmed my concern with that way.. which is it would tear up the crankshaft if you really gave it a go. I was careful and tried to gently do it that way and saw that it would take way more strength to work and probably do some damage to the crank so I stopped that crap and went and bought a bearing removal tool from harbor freight. That thing worked in seconds with very little effort! Best way to remove a bearing race from the crankshaft!

Next when I tried to mount the new race I attempted to do the V oodoo trick which is use the crankshaft mounting tool in reverse to pull the crankshaft shaft into the race. This would probably work fine, but the race went on slightly crooked again and it would have taken too much force to drag the shaft through the race. Given the physics of squishing the mounting tool's tube against the cockeyed race, I did not see how it could safely straighten out the race without doing damage to the race.. so I stopped that crap and mounted the crankshaft to a quarter inch steel plate diveboard off my bench between the webs, and used the race mounting drift from gickspeed. that thing straightened out the race and got it mounted in no time at all with light taps. Easily the best way to mount those races.

Job done. Now im back in business hopefully get this whole engine back together in the next week on my couple days off. I am going to hold off on running it until I can build my cheapo leak down tester with a blood pressure monitor. Make sure there are no leaks before I fire it up for the first time!

Will update as progress flows.

IMG_20191210_171306.jpg
harbor freight bearing removal tool pulled the race off in seconds with minimal effort!

IMG_20191210_171902.jpg
V oodoo's race mounting trick. Didn't feel comfortable really cranking it home with this options.

IMG_20191210_171907.jpg
reverse the mounting tool's tube so that it can push the race on.

IMG_20191210_174009.jpg
back to the straightforward drift option.

IMG_20191210_174014.jpg
on in no time at all!

Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:26 pm quote
I've remounted the input shaft/primary drive like 3 times and each time when I torque down the bolt, the primary drive does not want to spin freely. I assume its related to the needle bearings so I took them out and reinstalled them 3 times trying to get them in as perfectly straight as possible. I also wondered if it was the christmas tree bearing so I knocked it out and re-seated it thinking maybe it didnt go down all the way. Still no go. Here are videos of how it barely wants to spin once torqued in. Even with the bolt not on, this doesn't spin for a while.

Not sure what the problem is as everything that came out went back in. This is also with new needle bearings which I've double checked are the correct part# for this engine.

The only other thing I can think of is the input shaft isn't going in all the way and seating as far in as it can go, but I've tapped it in with punch and hammer and don't want to hit it any harder. I don't want to overdo the hammer.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jTWrxYaNtZyEJVHP9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ygr3JKzpW39gXHUH6
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:05 pm quote
Swiss - I had this issue as well.
I measured the needle bearings carefully - if memory serves - they were 1.9mm.
I counted them - did I put 21 in?
I put it together again - same.
Took my old set of needle bearings - and it worked fine.
Hmmm. I don't want to use the old bearings!
So I bought a second set.
Could not measure a difference - and yet - they worked beautifully.
Could never identify the issue - but actually put back in the first set a third time - same result. Then back to the newest ones - no problem.
There was some issue related to them - nfi what - but that one set simply did not work.
My recollection was - they were cheap - so might want to consider a new set.
Been here.
Frustrating.
If you have the old ones - perhaps give them a go.
Careful not to mix.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:10 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - I had this issue as well.
I measured the needle bearings carefully - if memory serves - they were 1.9mm.
I counted them - did I put 21 in?
I put it together again - same.
Took my old set of needle bearings - and it worked fine.
Hmmm. I don't want to use the old bearings!
So I bought a second set.
Could not measure a difference - and yet - they worked beautifully.
Could never identify the issue - but actually put back in the first set a third time - same result. Then back to the newest ones - no problem.
There was some issue related to them - nfi what - but that one set simply did not work.
My recollection was - they were cheap - so might want to consider a new set.
Been here.
Frustrating.
If you have the old ones - perhaps give them a go.
Careful not to mix.
thats what I was thinking. for some reason the needle bearing set is just not exactly the right fit. By chance, was the new needle set you had issue with the SIP needle bearing set? https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/needle+set+sip+input+shaft+_90081000

This is the one I am having issue with. I have noticed the piaggio original are listed as rounded edged. The sip ones are flatter edged. It seems when I install them if they are slightly crooked they get jammed in their space, which is why I spent some time slowly and carefully making sure they were completely straight and not jammed on an angle.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:17 pm quote
The new set I had that didn't work were in fact SIP - tho I can't say if that was the root of the issue.
They would work - until I torqued down the primary drive nut - which suggests they were okay in width, but problematic in length somehow.

You could test that by measuring length vs your old ones - or even grinding them shorter - but make sure to chamfer and polish where you grind if you are going to do that.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:26 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
The new set I had that didn't work were in fact SIP - tho I can't say if that was the root of the issue.
They would work - until I torqued down the primary drive nut - which suggests they were okay in width, but problematic in length somehow.

You could test that by measuring length vs your old ones - or even grinding them shorter - but make sure to chamfer and polish where you grind if you are going to do that.
I have a feeling the sip needle bearings are shaped in such a way that causes this issue. If I remember, I did not take a seriously detailed look to compare, but the old needle bearings I still have and I am pretty positive they were more rounded edged. That harder edge on the SIP needles really seems to cause them to hang up if not perfectly straight, almost like they are a miniscule amount too long because there is not as much of a bevel to the ends, and this lack of bevel is what gets hung up on.
Luckily I still have the old bearings right there. I will take a closer look and possibly measure them tomorrow after work and try installing them back to see if it will at least spin freely. Granted I do not want to leave the old ones in as I want to put new ones in before closing up the cases.

I'm going to order a new set from Scooter Mercato and see if that resolves it. I have no interest in grinding a needle bearing that is barely big enough to hold with fat fingers!

Literally every time i'm like "oh hell yes this rebuild is going to come together so fast now.." NOPE! hahah. I love it. I see this as a common theme with purchasing parts. I've had issues with certain parts depending on who I buy them from and its always different. So when purchasing say the carb box rubber seal, I have a specific preference for one US store instead of another.. and that may be different a completely different place if say I want to buy cylinder studs which didn't work out so well from that place, but another US store they were a better fit.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:08 pm quote
Measured the LML needle bearings vs the SIP needle bearings. There is a very small difference in the length on the SIP bearings at 0.02mm longer than the LML. The other difference is the bevelled ends with LML being rounded and SIP being a straight end with slightly bevelled edges between sides.

Old LML bearings installed and the input drive rotates freely and correctly.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/7v7Etuo5kd3bbM1F8

charlieman22, I am wondering if this issue is isolated to LML input shaft and SIP bearings or if it is just the SIP bearings. Is your input shaft that you had similar problems with an LML or Piaggio?

IMG_20191211_192348.jpg

IMG_20191211_192328.jpg

IMG_20191211_192401.jpg
SIP on left, LML on right. That difference in bevel really matters when you add an extra 0.02mm to the length. it causes the needle bearing to get stuck in the recess on the input shaft.

IMG_20191211_192445.jpg
SIP

IMG_20191211_192514.jpg
the LML might even be a few thousands shorter as i just noticed the bearing is slightly tilted in the caliper.

IMG_20191211_192544.jpg
SIP

IMG_20191211_192605.jpg
LML

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 871
Location: california
Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:34 pm quote
Swiss - this is the same issue I had.
Glad to hear the originals when inserted worked with no binding.
Looks like you have it isolated.

My input shaft was an FA Itallia aftermarket, turned down at the end to fit a VBB case - which it almost did....

Had to do a little dremel work on it to shorten so it could be installed.
Ended up fitting nicely.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:38 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - this is the same issue I had.
Glad to hear the originals when inserted worked with no binding.
Looks like you have it isolated.

My input shaft was an FA Itallia aftermarket, turned down at the end to fit a VBB case - which it almost did....

Had to do a little dremel work on it to shorten so it could be installed.
Ended up fitting nicely.
I remember the discussion about that, but my eyes were glossing over at the time with all the shims and measurements, so I missed the mention that it was an FA italia input shaft. Good to know! This makes me wonder what the tolerances are on the input shaft recess for the needle bearings, and if that variation in each input shaft is working against the variation of tolerances in SIP needle bearing length is the root cause. Just so happens we both had the short end of the straw so to speak on both part tolerances!
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:32 am quote
I contacted SIP technical support regarding the needle bearings suggesting there may be issues with their needles on LML/FA Italia input shafts. This is their response:
SIP Support wrote:
Hello Sean,



we got no other needle sets.



A technician said, that this needle sets are for new Input shafts. The old ones need a “round” needle.



Either u use a new Input shaft or you use the old needles.



I’m sorry.
I've asked for clarification on which new input shaft the technician is referring to, since your new FA Italia input shaft is clearly not included in that!

Untitled-1.jpg
seems to be a lot of "old" input shafts on this list of compatibility!

Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:17 am quote
I hope this is a different one than you used charlieman22.. cause this is the one they said works with their needle bearings:
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/input+shaft+fa+for+vespa+p125_88210000
SIP Support wrote:
Hello Sean,

the input shaft with the article number 8821000 and the SIP needles would fit into it. The technician put the needles in this input shaft a few months ago. So it should fit.
Molto Verboso
1980 P125X, 1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 1564
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:41 pm quote
Primary in with needles from scooter mercato that worked great! Gearbox in and everything spinning nice. Started on the rear brake actuator and assembling the rear brake components. On hold yet again, this time due to 2 cheap 50 cent rubber gaskets for the rear brake actuator arm. SIP rubber gaskets correct size again, but loose/baggy gaskets preventing me from getting the shaft into the case properly. This time I got replacements coming from scooter works.

At least its stupid poorly sized small parts that are holding me up lately and nothing major! I could have had everything together and practically running today if not for those two gaskets.
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