Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1592
Location: Florence, OR
Wed May 27, 2020 9:09 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Today is the Space X manned launch!
I'm excited about this too! I'm also excited to see you're getting it figured out. I know you'll dial it in!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 9:36 am quote
Just want to confirm that if it stalls right away when you give it wot it's too rich mj right? Just want to make sure it's not the opposite symptom before proceeding. Plug is wet as i went back to overly rich everything with the change to only three float gaskets instead of the spacer with two gaskets. Idles rough and stalls with wot at 145 mj.

Also went back and remeasured the mj sizes using a caliper technique i read about which gives more accurate zeroing to your own style of holding pressure as you measure. So with this change in how i used the calipers now all my jets are approximately 10 sizes smaller than marked. So I'm currently talking about stalling when wot on a labeled 145 mj that measures 135
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1422
Location: california
Thu May 28, 2020 10:05 am quote
Swiss - If you get such a significant bog when you flip it WOT that it stalls - you are basically drowning it. Yes.
Keep in mind - you could put a wrong jet in there and not melt it to the ground in 100 feet - so walk it down a little on the stand perhaps - and see what results you get.
Focus should stay on MJ.
WOT should clear up as you walk it down.
May still be a little boggy once off the stand - with real life resistance - but you will know where you are and have asrelative sense of things from moving the jet down a few times as you get it to be willing to rev out on stand.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Thu May 28, 2020 10:05 am quote
Way too rich is nearly as bad as too weak. More fuel more compression and more heat.

To quickly get a ball park main, hold it wide open on the stand and make sure it revs high and has a splutter. This takes some experience but quicker than doing it on the road.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1422
Location: california
Thu May 28, 2020 10:08 am quote
what he said
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 10:11 am quote
That's what I did, rev it up on stand and it would rev up good but once it got to 4-5000 rpm it would stall and die. Plug is fouled now and the AutoZone near me doesn't carry the same plug i bought from them last week for some reason. So I'll have to order some online. Turtle progress as usual!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 10:20 am quote
Btw i measured the 3mm spacer with two gaskets at 4mm thick, and three gaskets alone at 2.05mm thick. So im at the desired gasket size without any spacers.

What i find so mystifying about this si carb jetting is that nothing seems to make sense. When i had the 4mm total addition of float space i had the same jets on and it ran without stalling from flooding at wot. Now that I'm half the spacer size it stalls at wot. It seems like it should run better even if overly rich at the same jetting, or vice versa do the same thing and stall at wot with the thicker spacer.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Thu May 28, 2020 11:29 am quote
Not such a mystery. On an air screw carb, closing the air screw makes it richer. Right until almost closed. Then at near shut to fully shut, it goes really weak and cuts out.
Your float level was so high all the atomiser holes were closed. No air, no fuel.

You'll need a box of plugs to finish this job. 8's should do it.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 11:52 am quote
Ok so it is not my autozone that stopped carrying the B9ES NGK plug, apparently NGK stopped making the B9ES and only make the BR9ES plugs now. Unfortunately I do not think I can use the resistor version of these plugs as the SIP Vape Ignition specifically states in the manual not to use resistor caps or plugs with this variable ignition. Looks like I may have to switch plug brands.

https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9259

So this is across the board all heat ranges NGK has discontinued non resistor spark plugs it seems.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1422
Location: california
Thu May 28, 2020 12:02 pm quote
Quote:
SIP Vape Ignition specifically states in the manual not to use resistor caps or plugs with this variable ignition
it does?!

Ooops
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 12:04 pm quote
Well now I'm not sure. I swear I read it somewhere and am trying to find it now. It might have been in the manufacturers version of the manual that I found separately on the VAPE website. But I just went through the sip manual and they list a resistor plug cap as an accessory for purchase so I'm guessing I am wrong.

EDIT: Here it is in the VAPE manual which I assume is the same product as the SIP one.

http://members.modernvespa.net/swiss1939/uploads/115b72cc3156a91285172132_90485.pdf

page 12 it states:
Quote:
You will do yourself a favour to treat your bike to new spark plugs and spark plug sockets
(preferably some between 0-2kOhm). Plenty of problems are to be traced back to
"apparently good" (even completely "brand-new") sparks plugs, terminals and cables.
Do not use spark plugs with an intern suppression resistor. NGK (e.g.) offered such spark
plugs coded with an "R" (for resistor).
I've sent SIP a query about this to see if their kit has issue with resistor plugs/caps.

The only thing I can think of regarding why a resistor plug would be bad are maybe it interferes with the variable timing? I read somewhere else that resistor plugs effectively retard the timing slightly so firing later might mess with the variable timing cdi of this system?

Last edited by swiss1939 on Thu May 28, 2020 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1422
Location: california
Thu May 28, 2020 12:18 pm quote
SIP guys told me specifically to run an R cap - so suspect you will hear the same.

edit: Wont hurt it to run without - but may mess up your rev counter readings.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 12:21 pm quote
Well in that case, I'll just run with a resistor plug as I can only get resistor plugs around here now. I originally ran with resistor plugs before the rebuild because the non resistor plugs messed with my digital tachometer and the resistor plug was the only thing that sorted it out and kept the digital gauge from rebooting constantly. I switched back to non resistor plugs when I started running with this variable kit because I read that vape document and took it to heart.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1422
Location: california
Thu May 28, 2020 12:23 pm quote
others smarter than us can tell us why not to - but I have run both resistor and non resistor plugs with zero decreeable difference.

My concern would be adding a resistor plug and cap - as that would load the system differently - the resistance becoming cumulative I suppose.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 12:24 pm quote
Yes that is why it is either one or the other. No sense in buying a resistor cap when all I can get locally is resistor plugs.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1923
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu May 28, 2020 12:54 pm quote
B9ES, still in production here. I don't believe they stopped production since it's a needed plug on so many engines. The site you posted is not official (says so on top)...

https://www.ngkntk.com/part-finder/produktfinder/////B9ES//
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu May 28, 2020 1:12 pm quote
They had me fooled by their website! I couldn't believe they would discontinue something so common.

Had a br9es lying around the garage so i threw that on and got it running with 140 mj (130 measured). It no longer stalls at wot but is still gurgling. I watched the cht reading take a nose dive colder immediately with wot so i believe this is a good sign I'm on the rich side and not the opposite.

Gonna slowly walk it down till it just barely gurgles at wot then take for a ride tomorrow for a few miles to check the plug.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 29, 2020 7:44 am quote
Between 135 and 138 (125-128) is the mj target i believe. Boggy up until wot then takes off. Idle is currently 45/120 1 full turn out. In third gear it seems to be cleanest range of throttle but boggy mostly throughout in all other gears.

Will do a long run later today to get plug view.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 29, 2020 12:20 pm quote
45/120 with 1 full turn out. 120/be3/135(125)mj.

I believe the jump down from 138 to 135 was too much. Mj should be 138 i hope. Boggy low to mid throttle. Wot run felt fast and loose until Max rpm where it then felt weak so i let go and throttled slower to pepper it with fuel as i came back down. Temps never went over 300 but seemed to get close with wot run. Temps always go down pretty fast at mid throttle which seems to correlate to the plug photos at each throttle range.

I'll wait for feedback but my guess is go to 138 mj and idle might be one or two sizes too rich which would put it at either 52/140 or 55/160 and i wouldn't be surprised if going down two sizes on idle would mean ending up at 140 mj.

IMG_20200529_154510.jpg
Wot run for quarter mile. 45/120 with 1 full turn out. 120/be3/135(125)mj

IMG_20200529_161248.jpg
Mid to low throttle with idling of same jet for 10 miles

IMG_20200529_154438.jpg
Wot run same plug just another angle for better look at it

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Fri May 29, 2020 12:28 pm quote
You should drill your float bowl out to 2.3mm. Be sure to put a tiny chamfer on it too.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri May 29, 2020 12:32 pm quote
Will do before progressing further.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat May 30, 2020 8:19 am quote
While waiting for ups to deliver the 2.3mm drill bit and a new digital caliper from McMaster and Carr to replace the caliper i got on Amazon 10 yrs ago, i spent the morning fixing a few things that were nagging me.

Yesterday after my plug chop run i looked down at the exhaust cause it was making some rattling noises more than normal. Turns out the exhaust mounting bolt came loose from engine case and the bolt head was rubbing against the rear tire while riding for the last few miles. Torqued that prick down again.

Then i replaced the clutch lever with the sip adjustable one you guys suggested from scooter mercato. I was gonna reuse the new inner cable i just installed last month but realized when i went to install the new lever that i had to feed the cable in through the lever unlike my Stella stock lever that can swap without removing the cable completely. Since i already cut and bent the cable last week i couldn't get the old one through the new levers adjustable hole. Replaced with new spare laying around but the sip lever needed some Dremel work to fit the soldered tip of this cable as it came from factory. The sip adjustable lever has a face plate shaped to accept the nipple end of the cable which is attached to a hollow threaded tube similar to the adjustable bolt at the other end mounted to engine case. This face plate has a hole drilled through the center to feed the cable in through the threaded tube which acts as the adjuster for the lever that moves the faceplate in and out to tension the cable. That faceplate hole was like 1.7mm and the cable end measured at 2.0mm so i broke out the Dremel, pulled the lever adjuster mechanism apart and drilled that cable hole wider. Cable fit fine after that, and since i used a new cable, i added the tips and tricks cable outer section to the back end after the clutch arm. What a difference! So much easier to set the cable up now with the added space and range of movement below. I think i should have a much easier time dialing the clutch cable in now between the cable adjuster ranges on both the lever and the engine at both ends. I left some extra cable just in case i need to make further adjustments. I should have gotten more pics of the lever adjuster mechanism but forgot and didn't want to bother taking it all apart again just for that. Basically it's got the curved faceplate attached to a threaded tube with the hole drilled through the face for cable, then a dial wheel it passes through and a spring and ball bearing in the lever that act as the locking section pushing up against the wheel and threaded tube.

Still waiting on ups so i can drill my carb out further and get back to work!

IMG_20200530_115525.jpg
The clutch lever adjuster mechanism faceplate which accepts the cable nipple as seen

IMG_20200530_115542.jpg
Mounted and set up new cable hopefully better!

IMG_20200530_115618.jpg
Voodoo/socal clutch cable tip

IMG_20200530_120058.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat May 30, 2020 2:32 pm quote
Float passage drilled to 2.28mm measured on the 2.3mm drill bit with slight chamfer where i could get it.

45/120 with 1 full turn out. 120/be3/138(131 measured)mj. With the new McMaster digital caliper my measurements on drill bits were 0.02mm smaller than drill bit labeled as opposed to 0.04-0.05mm smaller on the old Amazon calipers. So it seems all my sip jets are 7 sizes smaller than labeled as opposed to 10-12 i thought before.

Feels like it is on the border as it's boggy at wot until really the 4,000-7,000 rpm range then peaks in 2nd similar to 135 mj before drilled hole to 2.3mm. but it feels close there. Like between 138-140mj. Everything below is really boggy. Plug again looks slightly weak or hot with quarter mile wot until it peaks out for short period. Temps still not in danger zone thanks to really rich idle. Plug is more dark grey at wot and not as much brown.

I'm guessing Jack is not going to think the drilled hole is big enough?

Mj stay at 138 or go to 140 or even 142? Or drill float passage to 2.4mm my next largest bit size and revisit everything?

As far as clutch, it feels set up perfectly now as far as i can tell with easy gear shifting and easy neutral. Less inclined to stall at red lights now.

Edit: to clarify, might be using the wrong descriptor when i say boggy. It runs pretty good in second and third in half to 3/4 throttle and has lots of torque and power, but there is a decent amount of sputtering all around that throttle range. I am pretty positive mj is still too weak cause lugging it up hill for quarter to half a mile in 2nd temps finally approached 300 and climbing so i pulled back and cooled off as soon as i got close to 300.

Also added photos of the low to mid throttle range from 10 miles trip back from wot run.

IMG_20200530_171419.jpg
2.3mm drill bit. 2.28mm measured

IMG_20200530_171515.jpg

IMG_20200530_181550.jpg
45/120 with 1 full turn out. 120/be3/138(131 measured)mj

IMG_20200530_181605.jpg

IMG_20200530_181725.jpg

IMG_20200530_185840.jpg
Mid to low throttle same jetting

IMG_20200530_185854.jpg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1422
Location: california
Sat May 30, 2020 8:14 pm quote
Suspect you are fine on hole size.
Should be no shortage of available fuel for what ever jet you choose (within reason).

Boggy at top and through the middle says rich main.
Heat on hill climb suggests lean or timing
Plug itself - might say lean - but it also might be saying: rich idle/ right plug temp/ young still and not fully colored, gonna end up black.
Interested to hear what Jack sees.

I would have thought you need to step down the main - and maybe even the idle by a notch - but for the love of all things holy (to quote Greasy) - please don't.
Let's hear what Jack has to say.
Popcorn until then.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat May 30, 2020 8:23 pm quote
I don't know if I'd exactly call it boggy at the top. It screams from 3/4 throttle up until it redlines and might feel slightly lean when it redlines. I did not want to test that theory too much so I really didn't hold it for very long at that end, just ran it till it peaked RPM and backed off. But yes you are right there is lots of fuel and at minimum the idle jet is rich. I'm only at about 100 miles on this rebuild with about 30-40 of it being at least in the ballpark for breaking in heat wise. I like where it is heading in terms of torque once it gets dialed in though! I can see this thing having no problem accelerating and cruising uphill like it was before.

With the change to 2.3mm float hole and upped the MJ to 138 from 135 the other day, it felt very similar but stronger in the mid range throttle in 2nd and 3rd, like the additional fuel was providing a decent increase in consistent power.. less peaky power, but more torquey power. My permanent tachometer isn't connected to ignition right now so I am only using a temp tach wrapped to the plug wire when on stand. Not sure what the peaked out rpm is in 2nd/3rd on the road but on stand I think it peaked at around 7500-8000.

BTW, forgot to mention SIP responded to my query about the vape document that had a no resistor warning. They said:
Quote:
I asked our technician and he told me that he never heard something like that. You can just order the right spark plug for your scooter like you always did.
EDIT:

I think the timing is correct because if you go back to our discussion long months maybe even a year ago last july about timing visual cues as shown on plug chops, you see the telltale signs of correct timing on my plug photos. Wet oil coming up the ground electrode and stopping mid bend on the ground electrode, as well as wet center electrode with a slight ring of dry around the top edge of center electrode. Might not have exactly the 1-2mm ring around the center electrode, but it is still rich at low end.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Sat May 30, 2020 10:09 pm quote
I think you are too rich. Reduce the main jet until the 1/2 to 3/4 runs really well without any richness of spluttering. Then carefully try the WOT again. Your final main jet should only be something like 120. When way too rich they get hot at high rpm.
Addicted
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 651
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun May 31, 2020 2:46 am quote
Get yourself a wideband o2 sensor so you know.
Get yourself a wideband o2 sensor so you can measure and see what is happening. The only semi permanent piece you have to install is the sensor bung. I've been running mine off of a 12 volt battery in a bag, with the control module. I charge the battery back up after a few hours running. When I get done playing I can pack it away and have The tool for my next changes.

http://www.plxdevices.com/SM-AFR-Gen4-Wideband-AFR-with-MultiGauge-Link-p/897346002870.htm
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun May 31, 2020 3:55 am quote
Not the answer i was expecting Jack. And kinda nerve wracking to think about potentially dropping up to 18 points as it feels close now for the sliver of throttle at 3/4 to full throttle. I will walk it down very very carefully and hopefully see the response you are looking for while keeping it safe.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun May 31, 2020 12:06 pm quote
OK, I went out just now on a quick break from work while waiting for producers to send feedback and worked down a bit on the jets. I was actually wrong yesterday when I said i was on a 138MJ. I was actually on a 140 MJ. I forgot that I decided to go from 135 to 140 MJ after drilling the float passage wider just to be extra cautious and work down again. So everything yesterday was 140 MJ (133 measured).

Today I went from the 140 to 135 (128 measured). It runs pretty damn cleanly and fast as hell at 135 mj from approx half throttle up. Of course there is some spluttering lower throttle both accelerating and decel, but up top is pretty clean as far as I can tell. I think this is the point where it runs with minimal stuttering and bogginess at half to full throttle. I did my first wheelie in first gear on this test! It might be way faster than I expected when dialed in cause that was pretty insane for me, I felt like I was hanging onto handlebars for dear life as it dragged me forward against my will. Feels absolutely nothing like a stock Stella! Finally experienced the same thing as quoted from cm in my signature.

Plug is only about a mile of riding on it with a very very quick WOT run for only a few seconds in first gear. I know Jack thinks this should be down at 120 and he may be right but I am very hesitant to go much lower than this MJ right now the way it is running and how the plug is looking whitish gray. Two days ago before drilling carb to 2.3mm a 135 MJ felt like how the 140 felt yesterday after drilling. Today, the 135 mj feels much cleaner as a result of the 2.3mm drilling.

Will do more extensive testing on this jet tomorrow. To see if more miles equals better looking plug. I will also try to get a cleaner audio recording of the rpms for GSF Dyno.

IMG_20200531_155328.jpg
135 labeled (128 measured) Main Jet. no spluttering from half to full throttle.

IMG_20200531_155339.jpg

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Sun May 31, 2020 9:09 pm quote
Coming along nicely. What jet makes WOT splutter? Plug is still a little rich. Mid should be running clean by now.
Was always going to be a little fast. Do you feel the power band hit as it starts to pull?
Molto Verboso
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 1788

Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:25 am quote
Swiss I certainly can understand your hesitance to go down to 120 , would make me a bit leary as well.
On another note , did you find it to be better with Voodoos trick on the chunk of cable and then then fastener for the clutch cable?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:17 pm quote
Lynnb wrote:
Swiss I certainly can understand your hesitance to go down to 120 , would make me a bit leary as well.
On another note , did you find it to be better with Voodoos trick on the chunk of cable and then then fastener for the clutch cable?
Yes, I found V oodoo's trick of outer cable to extend the clutch cable fastener past the arm extremely useful! No more swearing for minutes dealing with no space on my back underneath the engine struggling to get the fastener in the right spot.


Got a few packages in the mail today to get back to a few pending projects on this.. confirming my jet measurements with a new imperial steel gauge block set and the 1.6mm float spacers I had cut arrived. I'll post further about the spacers in Christopher's thread where we are discussing it. The steel block gauge set confirmed that my new mcmaster and carr digital calipers are dead on at the smallest block size of 0.05 in. and at a larger 2 in. block measurement. This means my current measurement of the jet sizes are accurate as I can be with the understanding there is possibly a 0.01mm margin of error for the slop of trying to measure the diagonal of the jet reamer which I tried to account for by taking many measurements and using the largest accurate one. So with this knowledge, I'd say my SIP jets are confirmed 7 sizes smaller than labeled. 140 labeled is a 133 measured, 135 is a 128, etc.

Steel block gauge set:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HFSS92B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Back to my jetting (i'll use labeled sizes with the understanding that actual measured is 7 points smaller because I've been trying to be consistent using labeled sizes when talking about jets unless otherwise stated), I went up from 135 to 138 MJ today and did a decent amount of driving, approx 15-20 mi. After comparing the 135,138 and 140 MJ's on the same drilled float passage, I believe 140 is the point of splutter, 138 is the on the border where it runs great but has some slight splutter mid throttle in 4th but seems mostly clear in 3rd from half to full throttle. 135 seems clean throughout half to full throttle in all gears but seems like the fast and loose jet where it may be a little too hot and fast. So with all that said, I am looking at a final MJ range of 128-133 measured, with 131 possibly being the correct size.

Some observations over the 15-20 miles today on the 138 mj... it runs pretty damn great, doesn't want to pop a wheelie as easily in 1st off the line like on the 135 but can get it to just barely want to pop that wheelie if I tried. It seems clean in 2nd and 3rd from half to full throttle. In 4th it seems to still be slightly boggy at half to 3/4 throttle. Temps were right on the line.. cruising in 2nd/3rd and 4th with not really sticking to one for long stuck around 230-250F easily. Temps as usual drop fast at idle. At WOT in 2nd through 4th it seemed to toe the line of approaching 300 F when held max rpm for a quarter mile, possibly want to very slowly climb above 300F although i'm not sure because I did not want to push it that hard. I think this might be the jet which would be good for city cruising with no long Highway WOT runs which would send it over the edge temp wise, and going 1 or 2 points larger MJ would be better for long WOT run rides over more time. Going down to 135 feels way more powerful and great but the temps I feel would climb a bit fast and maybe be a little less under control at the top end.

So I believe, dropping to a 55/160 idle jet would clear up the low end throttle richness and would mean needing to go up 2 points to a 140MJ would be the safe temp for some WOT runs, or keeping it at 138 would be for not dealing with WOT so much.

I am also uploading some audio clips of different running examples. Bike feels great when not dealing with the low end splutter. Even in the low end splutter it gets out of that range fast into a solid running range and both sounds and feels loud and healthy.

Plug still looks not enough brown for me but the way it runs feels good at the top end.
Jack221 wrote:
Was always going to be a little fast. Do you feel the power band hit as it starts to pull?
Jack, to answer your question, It definitely hits the power band on 138 MJ. The power band is more pronounced on 138 MJ. On the 135 MJ the power band was less pronounced, only because it felt like it was inside the power band all the time even at lower RPM.

Audio examples

2nd WOT quick run and 3rd cruising on straight line flat road for a minute:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vn9LI83Yz-NdMu36JceMHVnQA2HmU0n-/view?usp=sharing

starts off in 3rd gear going uphill lugging it on a long slow curve and down shift into 2nd to gain some torque back and get up to speed to get over the hump.. this is the hottest it got where it approached and could have gone over 300F if I pushed it in 3rd lugging.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r5SpAGfsPh_0DseI1hQMRn_NUO29xnYX/view?usp=sharing

last 10th of a mile before garage running a quick 2nd gear WOT and cutting the engine off to roll in neutral to garage:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sbnAZA5gDhdauHATdoYdmtGNUlZ974pS/view?usp=sharing

EDIT: I updated the links cause I accidentally exported the full record for all three not the clipped versions of each.

IMG_20200601_151529.jpg
120/45 idle. air mix 1 full turn out. 120/be3/138 MJ

IMG_20200601_151535.jpg
120/45 idle. air mix 1 full turn out. 120/be3/138 MJ

IMG_20200601_151549.jpg
120/45 idle. air mix 1 full turn out. 120/be3/138 MJ

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:33 pm quote
Sound won't play here. Put in a 145/160 pilot jet and see how it goes. 138 main will be ok then. It might take 135.

Is the timing variable? What's it set at? Might be a bit too much.

Never do wheelie on the clutch, does all kinds of damage. If it floats up while accelerating, then can't be helped. Careful in first though, can easily end up on the floor.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:37 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Sound won't play here. Put in a 145/160 pilot jet and see how it goes. 138 main will be ok then. It might take 135.

Is the timing variable? What's it set at? Might be a bit too much.

Never do wheelie on the clutch, does all kinds of damage. If it floats up while accelerating, then can't be helped. Careful in first though, can easily end up on the floor.
I reuploaded the audio files and deleted the old ones so you probably hadn't refreshed the page when you clicked the old ones and got dead links. Try refreshing and playing them. If they don't play then download them and you should be able to play them on computer or cell.

Timing is variable, set at 24 degrees at idle. Also, do you mean a 45/160 idle jet? or 55/160?

Regarding wheelies.. I might be exaggerating a bit. The most it did was float off the ground on a 135 mj for 10 ft or so before i realized the front was so light it was probably off the ground. nothing like a true wheelie where it would slam back down to the ground. So I do not think it was at risk of damaging the clutch. I would also never literally try to do a wheelie like that.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:46 pm quote
Is that timing 24-7? Thinking might need to go back 1 degree at least.
Got a 48/160?
Sound still won't play.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:46 pm quote
BTW, I believe I'm hitting mid 50s in 3rd gear on the stella speedo. Haven't checked with GPS yet. This would line up with around 7500 RPM on the vespa gearing calculator on scooterhelp. Similarly in 2nd hitting about mid to high 30's mph in 2nd. So I think its on target.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:53 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Is that timing 24-7? Thinking might need to go back 1 degree at least.
Got a 48/160?
Sound still won't play.
What do you mean 24-7? This is my understanding of what it is set to:
Quote:
Vape Variable Ignition set to 24 degrees at the T mark which is 22 degrees at idle and 18 degrees at 8000 RPM.
So my bad I meant 24 at the T mark on the stator drum, not at idle. The T mark is the dotted line on this diagram:


I've uploaded the same files to a different service so hopefully you can play or download these instead:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AqG-arhUSXh8kSGNDQ1XKMHIJOc3?e=QypeKP

I can't get this link to show up as a link cause it has invalid characters in it, but if you copy and paste the full link instead of click the incomplete section, you should be able to access it.

I do not have a 48/160 idle but wouldn't a 48/160 be very lean compared to a 55/160? I'll have to buy one.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:04 pm quote
Just trying to confirm the idle jet jump suggested, cause that seems a large jump to much leaner than expected?

I am at 45/120 which is 2.666, a 55/160 is 2.90 and going to a 48/160 is 3.333 which is way leaner than any other idle jet I've used on a stock engine.

Also, by going back 1 degree on timing, you mean going to 23-17 or possibly 22-16 right? advancing it closer to TDC, not retarding away from TDC right? Always get these terms confused.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:08 pm quote
I have a feeling Jack is going to be dead on with the idle jet suggestion as well as the MJ and timing. Just went for 30-40 mile drive on a 55/160 idle jet with 1.5 full turns on air mix, 138MJ and it was more spluttery mid throttle now with a leaner idle and the plug came out black and wet. rpms drop almost instantly to idle which is great but probably means there is plenty of room to go down on the idle. Temps stayed around 200-250F the whole time.

IMG_20200601_185747.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:18 pm quote
took another stab at the GSF Dyno on my earlier audo of 2ng gear WOT and engine cutout.

Who knows how accurate this is, I'll eventually solder up the audio board to capture direct from ignition to phone and see if it gets more accurate.

This was with 138 MJ and the previous idle jet that was more rich.

2nd gear 20.5HP 20.27Nm peak power around 7100 rpm and max rpm 8160.

going down on mj and idle to get rid of the extra rich will only increase it further.

If this is true and accurate, then the gearing calculator on scooterhelp suggests peak power in 4th would hit at 67-69mph and it would top out in 4th at 78-79mph on a 138 mj as is.

2nd gear 138 MJ.png

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