Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:35 am quote
It's like Hibbert and CM said, its amazing how well these scoots can run when you are way too rich. I was 13 points richer and felt it was running great, and going down that much did not change the cht temps much at all. The only broad change I noticed in temps is that EGT readings now finally show up on the gauge regularly. So this is where the balance comes in, keeping the two from peaking on their own too much.


I'll start with the idle tomorrow after work as Im burned out from 4 hrs out on the road!

Will start with that idle jet suggested and try to figure it using that guidance.
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1844
Location: california
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:42 am quote
Swiss - just read through.
Looks like alota progress.
Can tell from the tone - some fun now being had.
Suggest you get the scoot fully warm - let the heat soak in a little - before you mess with idle jet.
Otherwise can be very misleading.
Always sleep better when scoot running well.
Enjoy the beverage.
-CM
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:59 am quote
Would be nice to see some GPS speeds and Dyno charts to check progress. Safe to do some WOT runs by the sounds of it. Would hope this one makes 75 on the flat at some point.
You'll be sore tomorrow. Sunburn and aching wrists after a year off.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:04 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Would be nice to see some GPS speeds and Dyno charts to check progress. Safe to do some WOT runs by the sounds of it. Would hope this one makes 75 on the flat at some point.
You'll be sore tomorrow. Sunburn and aching wrists after a year off.
Yes that is my goal now to do some GPS runs and provide some cleaner Dyno charts now that its not spluttering all over. I had the GPS on briefly today before my phone shut off and on back roads in 3rd i peaked out at 55mph with more to go but not enough road.

I'll set it up on the phone mount so I can actively see it and compare to speedo next time I get out there. Maybe even try to take it on my short little deserted highway stretch to see what it can do in 4th gear finally. I have a feeling it can make 75 with some room to spare. It feels strong when shifting from 3rd to 4th at about 55mph like it will just keep going up with no problems.
Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:08 pm quote
Si24
160 be3 127
Drilled filter no gauze
Oval hole blocked
Malossi 166 mk2
Std stroke race cut crank
22 tooth clutch
Sip road xl
Static timing at 18 degrees


Ground notch in head to take CHT plug ring after insulation and same in cowl.Used layers of heat shrink tube
Plug a tad rich but I prefer it that way for my sort of use. Autolube kept plus add 1% to petrol.

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Last edited by Darren.H on Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:52 pm; edited 4 times in total
Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:09 pm quote
Secure wire vibration can damage it

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Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:10 pm quote
Bit rich.
No white showing, electrode insulator has brown showing, but tip black so I would possibly go from a ngk 7 to a 6 or even 5 before reducing mj.

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Last edited by Darren.H on Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:38 pm; edited 3 times in total
Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:11 pm quote
Heat seize mark's
Nothing to do with jetting had fuel blockage at plus 62 mph for a duration, cht at 368 F at arse twitching moment.
Normal temp at that speed would be around 300 F to max 328 F at 73 mph

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:01 pm quote
Those koso cht rings break way too easy. I used them for the past year or more and broke them constantly. This one I'm using is industrial aeronautics equipment which i hope will last much longer. The ring was not cheap. I guess i could add some heat shrink on it to help with the heat.
Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:14 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Those koso cht rings break way too easy. I used them for the past year or more and broke them constantly. This one I'm using is industrial aeronautics equipment which i hope will last much longer. The ring was not cheap. I guess i could add some heat shrink on it to help with the heat.
Havnt had that issue tbh. I put a drop of light oil on spark plug threads before inserting if you are saying they break when fitting???
The one in there has had at least 2 years use,I have had the wire break due to vibration hence the home made clamp.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: California
Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:41 pm quote
Darren.H wrote:
Si24
160 be3 127
Drilled filter no gauze
Oval hole blocked
Malossi 166 mk2
Std stroke race cut crank
22 tooth clutch
Sip road xl
Static timing at 18 degrees


Ground notch in head to take CHT plug ring after insulation and same in cowl.Used layers of heat shrink tube
Plug a tad rich but I prefer it that way for my sort of use. Autolube kept plus add 1% to petrol.
Sounds and looks like a nice scoot
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:46 pm quote
I continually had the rings breaking cause they are soft metal and don't fit in the cooling hood with the plug and the plug socket very well so it was constantly bending and breaking the rings when installing or removing plugs. Especialy cause I have been "jetting" for a year across the previous PNP attempt and this complete rebuild. Also had many of the temp probes that screw into the rings break from the same thing. Got fed up with the koso quality (despite loving their digital gauges), so I took Patrick's (oopsclunkthud) suggestion on switching to the Westach gauges which do not run off powered source, but just resistance from the probe. Definitely more expensive solution, but a bit more robust.

I found two of their CHT/EGT combo gauges on ebay used for about half price of new. The wiring and probes I had to buy direct from them for full price which as I said isn't cheap.

https://www.westach.com/product-page/2da1
I got the 2 1/4" one and the 3 1/4" one. The larger one is in my stella currently.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: California
Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:48 pm quote
Outstanding Swiss1939 keep updating
Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:52 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
I continually had the rings breaking cause they are soft metal and don't fit in the cooling hood with the plug and the plug socket very well so it was constantly bending and breaking the rings when installing or removing plugs. Especialy cause I have been "jetting" for a year across the previous PNP attempt and this complete rebuild. Also had many of the temp probes that screw into the rings break from the same thing. Got fed up with the koso quality (despite loving their digital gauges), so I took Patrick's (oopsclunkthud) suggestion on switching to the Westach gauges which do not run off powered source, but just resistance from the probe. Definitely more expensive solution, but a bit more robust.

I found two of their CHT/EGT combo gauges on ebay used for about half price of new. The wiring and probes I had to buy direct from them for full price which as I said isn't cheap.

https://www.westach.com/product-page/2da1
I got the 2 1/4" one and the 3 1/4" one. The larger one is in my stella currently.
Ah ok, yes if you dont dremel in the notch in the cylinder head I imagine they would.
The very last forum post I read some years back was about that exact same gauge! That was pre Sip speedo, so you can tell the number of years back.
Ths Sip Mk2 or is it V.2 I use is brilliant, has on screen temp reading and a MAX memory function for speed, revs temp.
Theres another cht digital gauge that I used back then, cant remember its name, small rectangle box, really good but not illuminated.
You know I forgot the notched head picture last night in my rush, sorry here it is now.

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Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:53 pm quote
Pre zoom

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Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:14 pm quote
Knocked up a new lead

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Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:18 pm quote
Give a squeeze to shape to socket

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Enthusiast
Px125 2009
Joined: 31 May 2020
Posts: 62
Location: UK West Yorkshire
Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:25 pm quote
New one fitted torqued to 14 lbs ft

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:58 am quote
With the same idle jet no jettting changes from yesterday I ran with a gps video recorder to get some basic idea of what is happening.

https://youtu.be/MsLqZIPDQnM

2nd gear hits 48mph.

3rd gear I shifted out of at 62mph but didn't really redline it.

This was after about 10-12 miles driving out to this spot so engine was fully warmed up. Getting up to 62mph and cht went up to 300 or slightly over before I backed off. It was about 14-15 sec 0-60 off the line!

And this is just general driving around the nicer part of SI starting out near the dump and the mall. This app only lets free users export 3min long videos max. Unfortunately my phone ram mount is attached to the mirror stem so it rattles like crazy and will never give a clean video. I'll need to get another gopro or something to wear. Should have never gotten rid of my pile of gopros years ago. Didn't like their video quality so I never used them for professional projects, but for this it would work great!

https://youtu.be/RMHKKX7ZlBA
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:10 pm quote
Starting to run nice. Like how the power band hits.

Pilot jet is terrible. Way too rich. Main seems rich too, as it gets to peak too slowly. Going to feel pretty quick when it's done.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:22 pm quote
I'm still waiting on the two lean idle jets that come tomorrow. 45/160 and 48/160. I just switched it to 45/140 and am gonna go take it for a similar drive.

I was trying to come up with a way to understand if the idle jet is too lean or just right. What I was trying when setting it up was to dial it in, then hold at just under quarter throttle so it was running on idle while on the stand, but not any more throttle that it would go into mj, and just hold it there to see if the engine would race or hold steady at that RPM. I'm not sure if this really tells anything, but I was thinking its similar to holding mid throttle while driving and if it races its too lean. I was able to dial the 45/140 in on the air mix screw and I think get rid of a decent amount of spluttering by doing this. Tomorrow I can compare with the leaner jets to see how it is running.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:48 pm quote
I opened it up a bit more today and rode it a bit harder and longer with rpms more constant instead of pulsing. Just over 319 miles on this rebuild.

45-140 idle jet feels closer but still splutter below quarter throttle. Temps are higher now on avg, idle temps slower to drop take a longer red light to get below 250 but will hover around 225F if sitting in one spot for a bit. EGT is more constant 800f baseline with some higher 1000-1100F approx when up the higher rpm. CHT will go over 300F when traveling higher speed in 3rd and 4th. Not sure how high but they go between 300-350F, at least 315 maybe 330-340F before I back off to get the temps to go down. I am still avoiding holding it for minutes. Kinda getting it up there then cruising slower then getting back up there etc to keep the temps hovering around 300F.

Another 2/3 tank of gas. this one 20 miles on same setup as yesterday, and 35 miles on the leaner 45-140 idle jet. 42.82 MPG for this fillup.

GSF Dyno taken from the first video file at 2nd gear.

IMG_20200607_181914.jpg
45-140 idle. 122mj. plug photo after normal cruising not after WOT.

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55160_122mj.png
2nd Gear. 55-160/122MJ. 22.17PS 21.28Nm Peak Power at 7.5k, max at 9.9k.

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1257
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:34 pm quote
It would be good to know throttle position vs temperature at higher speeds. At 55 mph I was at about half throttle, not wot. If temps are getting above 300 not hovering in that area I would richen that spot up in the throttle position. Creeping above a little is one thing if your hitting 350 and no sign of slowing down that's getting a bit hot for my liking.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jun 07, 2020 4:48 pm quote
Never got over 350 but it might go over. Will get dialed in before i run it long highway runs. It's a fun scoot now though! No complaints over power or torque even uphill.

I will say that I've already noticed every bro with a charger on Staten island tries to rev their engine past me now as if they are threatened! And I'm just trying to cruise in 2nd at city speed limits without going too fast and getting a ticket!
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:00 pm quote
If that Dyno is correct power is over 20 now. This is where it should be.

Need to get rid of all spluttering before we know where the temperature is. Don't take it too far over 300 until it's running better.

How many turns is the 45/140? I would hope no less than 2.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:53 am quote
Yes i was not intentionally bringing it over 300. I was trying to keep it below 300f while still keeping up with traffic on the road i was on.

I have to double check the screw position but i believe it was around 2 full turns on that 45-140.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:50 am quote
Think your jet will be 45/160. If you have a 1.6mm drill you could run it through the 45/140. This is not the right jet so no use to you.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:56 am quote
Already got the correct jets in the mail delivering today or tomorrow so no sense drilling.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:00 am quote
Is there still any spluttering above 1/2 throttle?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:08 am quote
No
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:31 am quote
Finally got my idle jets from Germany after two weeks stuck in koeln FedEx hub.

I worked down slowly to Jack's suggested 45/160 idle jet. First with 45/140, then 40/130 and finally 45/160. With every step leaner i could feel the low throttle clean up and get faster. It runs pretty great right now With only a little four stroking splutter when i hold exactly at quarter throttle in really low rpms like when in stop and go traffic only creeping along at 20-25mph. If my rpms are up past 4k it is really clean held at exactly quarter throttle, and off the line accelerating fast you don't even notice any stroking. It might still be just slightly rich?

Temps are harder for me to be exact cause of the position of my temp gauge. I gotta really get a good look at it to see the temps and if I'm looking at it then I'm not paying enough attention to road. And the bike runs fast so my focus needs to be on not hitting something. With that said, i believe temps still go down quick when gunning it but then climb up. It's not hard to get it over 300f at 3/4 to full throttle if not maxed out rpms. But it's also not hard to make the temps go down below 300f by down shifting and revving the rpms. So i think I'm on the border of right temps for long wot runs, maybe could go slightly richer main Jet? I never did see them go over 325 i think but 300-325 was the range out was in when cruising around 6-7k rpms at half to 3/4 throttle.

Plug looks great so far and the one time i did drag it off the line on a desolate road it feels almost too fast once i get it up into 4th at 5k or more rpms. Bike feels light and a little more twitchy unstable from high speed as it's lighter. Definitely drifts front wheel off if i gun it hard and on a sharp turn from stop. Really really strong engine though now.

Fuel economy is going to be solid respectable numbers which is crazy cause this thing beats everyone off the line without even trying hard.

IMG_20200616_102533.jpg
Finally did this after multiple people kept telling me to do it. My throttle estimations were close enough before. Now they are on.

IMG_20200616_141407.jpg
Typical city driving plug check. No recent wot run.

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Molto Verboso
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1104
Location: Racing Capital of the World
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:43 am quote
Happy to see this motor going, you have put a lot of time into it.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:05 am quote
Thanks Jonathan. Its been both frustrating and rewarding. Much respect to you and all you guys out there who do this every day for a living! Especially when you do such great work! I'm losing hair just from my engine.. can't imagine doing it for customers daily.

Again thanks for your help with the bore and porting work!

Jack, this is from a not very controlled audio run. Showing my 2nd gear power is increasing with the idle jet leaning out. total HP has gone up about 0.75 HP to 22.91 and torque has gone up 3.2 Nm while those optimum rpms have gone down to approx 6500 as opposed to 7400 on the 55/160 idle. Peak RPMs have only gone down just the tiniest bit from 9900 to 9700. Torque on this engine is impressive pretty much anywhere in the throttle range at any speeds. It does not feel like a scooter at all anymore, but a much bigger bike.

I can't even fathom doing a WOT dyno test run in 3rd gear as this thing is way too fast at max in 3rd and 4th.

https://soundcloud.com/sean-simpson-231097141/45-160idle-45-half-turns-out-120-be3-122

BTW, forgot to mention the air mix screw is 4.5 half turns out.. or 2.25 full turns out.

45-160idle_122mj.png

Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
Posts: 1257
Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:07 pm quote
You should post an update with your complete setup in one spot with jetting, for those of us thinking our DR kit isn't going to cut it.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:15 pm quote
I would say the pilot jet is right. From what you're saying and how it sounds, it's done. Especially the 2.25 turns.
Plug does still looks bit rich though. So, that means the main jet is still over. Are you still on 122? Think you should try 120 and 118. Do it carefully and nothing will happen.

Takes a while to get used to the stability at speed. Would be sure it will make 75mph on GPS. Might even do 80mph downhill. Get used to it first and be sure to wear padded and leather gear where possible. The faster they go the faster they chuck you off.

Maybe Sime66 will re-run that Dyno into a better shape. If it is 23bhp that's not bad for an iron Malossi.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:17 pm quote
I am still 122mj.

Everything engine wise recapped below for Christopher and anyone else looking at this deciding on what they are looking for kit wise:

Jetting:
45/160 idle
Air mix 2.25 full turns out
120 AC
BE3
122mj

Carb:
SI 24/24 with the drt mods from sip.
Plus float to main Jet hole drilled to 2.3mm
3 paper gaskets for the float bowl raised additional 1.3mm over the standard 1 paper gasket.
No air filter, but all carb openings plugged with grommets.
Standard airflow through the frame with stock stella mesh filter under seat.

Timing is as follows:
22 degrees set to the vape t mark inscribed on the side of the magnet drum.. Which means my timing is 23 degrees at 3500 and 16 degrees at 8000rpm.

Cylinder:
Malossi 166mkiii first over bore
185/125 timings
30 blowdown
1.15mm squish
Exhaust port widened to 68% and bottom of exhaust lowered to flush with piston at bottom dead center.
Gickspeed also opened up the boost port passages leaving the opening profile untouched i believe a little to get better flow in the cylinder.

Clutch:
Bgm super strong 2.0 with cr80 plates
22 tooth gear cog. The gearbox is stock Stella otherwise

Crankshaft:
Worb5 Flowed 60mm Mazzucchelli crankshaft

Exhaust: sip road xl

Current tuning dyno results:
23.91hp
24.45nm torque
Peak power 6500 rpm
Max rpm 9750.

Btw, they don't make this malossi 166mkiii kit anymore so you can't really get it new. They replaced this kit with an aluminum 177 kit last year a few months after i got it.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: California
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:40 pm quote
Outstanding Swiss1939! Any idea on the inlet duration? Stock air filter?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:42 pm quote
No inlet duration this is a reed valve engine. Forgot to mention no air filter.
Molto Verboso
Vespa
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 1221
Location: California
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:46 pm quote
duh forget about that here in California the Stella never made it due to EPA, not many around here to get to know. If opportunity arose I would get one. Nice going on the tune!
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2339
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:25 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Think you should try 120 and 118. Do it carefully and nothing will happen.

Maybe Sime66 will re-run that Dyno into a better shape. If it is 23bhp that's not bad for an iron Malossi.
I can get a better audio of a 2nd gear WOT run, I just wasn't focusing on that so I threw it inside my coat which isn't enough wind protection to get great sound. I'll focus on getting better dynos now with better audio. Just gotta wear a flannel shirt to put the phone in the front pocket, then wear my coat zipped up and the audio is fine for dyno purposes with that amount of layering.

I will do 3 or 4 dyno runs on 2nd gear with 125, 122, 120 and if it doesn't seem sketchy then a 118 to compare power differences and check to see if I can figure out which jet is best based on the dynos. These tests I will focus on getting a full dyno rpm range instead of just shifting into 2nd at high rpms like I've been doing recently. I'll shift into 2nd and slow down to low rpm then gun it to max so that the graph is more complete.

Tomorrow, I will also try to take it out on the no traffic highway connector so I can see what it really does in 4th. I've now got almost 400 miles on this engine so it should be broken in.

Got a cheapo gopro knockoff on the way just for fun and to see if I can get some video of my speedo with the temp gauge and throttle all in one composition to hopefully get some clearer understanding of what the temps are doing. Regretting selling 3 old gopros a few years ago cause I never used them!
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