Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:13 am quote
The only reason I mention the plug was that the higher number plugs have to run darker to be the same jetting as a low number plug. If you have a really light high number plug your jetting maybe off the bottom at the right temperature. This is not your issue. Timing probably is though. drop 2 degrees at a time until its ok.
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Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:25 pm quote
Gordon Jennings
I revisited the 2 stroke tuners handbook tonight in front of the TV to see if I could get some more info on ignition timing in relation to cylinder temperatures. I have yet to get through it to find anything about that yet because I was sidetracked by the carb chapter.

I found really helpful information in the carb chapter that answers one question I posed about how to adjust the throttle stop screw and air mix screw together to find the optimum idle mixture. He's talking about a different type of carb so you just have to translate what he's talking about on those needle carbs for the si carb jet circuits.

Earlier in that same chapter he also goes into detail on what atomizers are and how they work/why they work. It still doesn't totally demystify the differences between specific atomizers for me but it sure does give me more knowledge to make educated guesses on which to try for specific issues.

Finally he goes into a lot of detail on throttle slide cutouts and what they do to solve specific four stroking issues mid throttle which is something I have. I think it will help when I get to that point after solving the temperature issues at WOT that I am currently dealing with.

2stroketuners-jetting-idlethrottlesetting.pdf
 Description:
jetting section with specific info about how to set up the throttle stop screw and air mix screw to find the best idle mix.

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 Filename:  2stroketuners-jetting-idlethrottlesetting.pdf
 Filesize:  334.76 KB

2stroketuners-atomizers.pdf
 Description:
atomizer discussion that starts to help them make sense.

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 Filename:  2stroketuners-atomizers.pdf
 Filesize:  422.28 KB

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Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:51 am quote
Digesting Gordon Jennings articles plus Jack's advice and help seems to finally start to coalesce the whole process of jetting and timing for me.

What I've learned from those sources plus this article also by Jennings (which is extremely useful and thanks to oopsclunkthud for posting on the cht thread) https://www.strappe.com/plugs.html is that there should be an order to setting up the engine.

1.) find your ignition timing first. because this affects the plug heat zone and can throw off your jetting or worse cause dangerous engine conditions that will destroy it if bad enough. I've actually done the opposite Jennings suggests and retarded it excessively, then started working it back more advanced 2 degrees at a time until you see the symptoms jennings describes on the plug in the linked article above:
Gordon Jennings wrote:
Retard the spark timing in small (two or three degrees) increments and as you get close to the optimum advance you'll find two things happening: first, the whole plug will be running colder; second, the center electrode will begin to acquire a film of fuel deposits extending out from the insulator nose toward its tip.

The fuel film mentioned here is what you watch when making fine adjustments in ignition advance. In an engine that's been given just a few degrees excessive advance (as most have) the fuel film will only extend outward along part of the center electrode's exposed length, ending abruptly a couple of millimeters from the tip. The portion remaining won't be filmed over simply because it has been hot enough to burn away the fuel salts dusted on the rest of the electrode, and you'll see that sort of localized overheating created by too much spark advance even on a plug that is two or three heat ranges too cold. And you'll have the correct spark advance when the center electrode's fuel film continues right out to within a hair of its tip. There are a couple of caveats to be observed in this matter. An overly-retarded spark timing won't show except as an absence of any evidence pointing to too much advance. Also, the spark itself will blast clean spots in the electrode's fuel film, and when there's enough combustion chamber turbulence to blow the spark sideways into a curved path you'll get a cleared area on one side of the electrode. This lop-sided spark blush shouldn't be mistaken for the more sharply defined ring associated with the electrode tip overheating produced by excessive spark advance.

Once you have brought your engine's ignition timing close to optimum you'll almost certainly have to make a further change in spark plug heat range. Manufacturers' specifications for racing models very often advise you to use too much advance and a too-cold plug, and when you shorten the spark lead to suit commonly-available fuels it almost certainly will be necessary to use a warmer plug. Then, when you have found plugs of a heat range that will keep that insulator nice and clean you can start adjusting your engine's air/fuel mixture - a task that will be easy if you can forget everything you thought you knew about this aspect of plug reading.
2.) make sure your plug heat range is correct. again Jennings 2 stroke chapter on carb and the plug reading article has relevant info on what symptoms to look for in a plug that is too hot or cold.

3.) go back and make sure your main jet is correct.. as jack has guided me, I have gone rich to the point of bogging and slowing to a crawl when pinning WOT. Then work it back until it no longer bogs and the plug color is a light chocolate with reddish brown. grounding electrode slightly lighter than the insulator. Jennings plug reading article also provides a ton of helpful information regarding reading the plug for correctness. For me, as Jack has suggested, this has led to a MJ that is approximately 3-4 sizes smaller than the MJ that bogs at WOT.

4.) check idle jet for correctness. Again, Jack has provided very helpful information that if you've found your correct main jet, hold throttle at 1/4 and if it starts to race rpms then your idle is too lean. find the idle that is too rich and bogs, then choose the idle jet that is halfway between the two ends of the spectrum.

5.) make sure your air fuel mixture is correct. this is where Gordon Jennings suggests to do a full blown "plug chop" to look for the light soot ring around the base of the insulator inside the plug body.

6.) make sure your temps are within acceptable range on long WOT run and rolling off WOT. Thanks to Patrick/oopsclunkthud for his information and advice about how CHT and EGT relate, and that it is a fine balance between the two that keep an engine from seizing. CHT gives you a view into the cylinder temps, EGT gives you a view into the piston temps. Keep them both in the middle of the acceptable range at Max RPM:
SoCalGuy wrote:
The CHT numbers being posted here are helpful, but Patrick makes a couple of great points:

1. Donít expect your CHT to max out after just a couple of laps around the block or a few of miles just tootling around the city. The engine may be warmed up, but you wonít know whether the cooling of the cylinder is sufficient to balance the constant heat input until youíve run it WOT for at least 5 mins or more. That is the test.

2. Because our scoots rely on air moving over the cylinder to stay cool, ideally you want to be in the middle of the range of both EGT and CHT at max HP.
oopsclunkthud wrote:
0. EGT reacts very fast, CHT moves slower but still fast enough to see the trends

3. when everything is balance and in the middle:
* The EGT will go up with RPM
* The CHT will go down with RPM
So, when lugging it up a hill the CHT will be high, down shift and the CHT will drop with EGT going up.

4. A richer jet will move both temps lower, a leaner jet will move both temps higher.
I'm sure there is much more to this process and a ton more knowledge such as finding the correct atomizer and throttle slide to solve for other issues, but this rough outline is better than any guidance the stella manual or other rough information I've found online either on youtube or elsewhere.
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Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:35 pm quote
Here is my plug after checking the ignition timing for correct symptoms that Gordon Jennings mentions in the plug reading article.

I started at 14 degrees to ensure timing was too far retarded to get a full fuel film completely covering the center electrode. I am ignoring any other visual cues on the plug until I can get the symptoms I am looking for to confirm my timing is correct.

This is at 16 degrees timing. As you can see the top left edge of the center electrode is just starting to clear up the fuel film. As he mentions, the goal is to get the whole tip clear of that fuel film to the point that there is just a tiniest ring all the way around the top edge of the center electrode and by nature the whole top surface. This is your cue that the ignition temperatures are just hot enough for the plug to self clean the electrodes, but not too hot to create detonation. Given this is just starting to happen for half the top edge, I am thinking correct ignition timing will be either 17 or 18 degrees. I will report back with an image of the correct center electrode symptoms when found.

As a result of this, I've gotten pretty fast at taking the flywheel off and making stator adjustments then getting everything back together. I initially made two marks, one for 18 degrees and one for 16 degrees so that I could more easily judge the 2 degree changes without having to hook up the degree wheel each time by eyeballing the distance from either mark up or down using the two marks as a yard stick. When I finally lock down the timing, I will double check the final timing with degree wheel.

img_20190717_175951_19830.jpg
just starting to clear up the fuel film around half the top edge at 16 deg. need to get the full top of electrode with slight ring around the edge clear for timing to be correct.

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Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:19 am quote
Way to stay at it, swiss. I admire your perseverance at trying to understand how to jet these little beasts.

I think this is the electrode look youíre after.

FEF90868-ED01-476A-81DE-93EE30887E25.jpeg

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Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:42 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Way to stay at it, swiss. I admire your perseverance at trying to understand how to jet these little beasts.

I think this is the electrode look youíre after.
Thanks! I actually did just go through some of my old photos posted to the forum and saw that evidence in previous images.

It has been a good exercise to make these changes to visualize the plug symptoms and feel how the running conditions change, regardless of where this bike eventually ends up. I'm digesting as much as I can and was thinking last night how little I knew a month ago about jetting. I thought Jetting was a simple set as manufactured suggested process, but in reality it is way more complicated to get a bike running ideally for your riding style and individual upgrades. Nothing should be set as manufacturers suggest. Everything should be fine tuned for your situation.

Now that I know more, I realize how little I still know. But it is so much less frustrating when you have some plug reading symptoms that are known to look for at different stages of setting up the carb and timing, instead of just "well it should be this because people say it should and the manufacturer suggests it should be in this ballpark".
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Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:26 pm quote
Swiss - just catching up with your tuning clinic. Understood at least half of it. Your user name matches the careful/ thorough nature of your approach.

Had to chuckle a little. I was so pleased with myself with recent tuning until I read this.

Installed new parts.
Took wild guess at MJ upsizing.
Kept walking up (guessed too low) and maxing top speed.
Until it got boggy.
Moved back down.

Probably gives a solid rough tune.
Plan to now use new plug(s) for reading and fine tuning.
Thanks for the digging and explanation.
Your photography work with real film must be spectacular.

-CM
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Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:17 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - just catching up with your tuning clinic. Understood at least half of it. Your user name matches the careful/ thorough nature of your approach.

Had to chuckle a little. I was so pleased with myself with recent tuning until I read this.

Installed new parts.
Took wild guess at MJ upsizing.
Kept walking up (guessed too low) and maxing top speed.
Until it got boggy.
Moved back down.

Probably gives a solid rough tune.
Plan to now use new plug(s) for reading and fine tuning.
Thanks for the digging and explanation.
Your photography work with real film must be spectacular.

-CM
OCD. I need to get it perfect otherwise I can't let it go. Still not there yet.


Jack has also been immensely helpful. He has gone further to remind me that if you follow Gordon Jenning's instructions in the two stroke tuners handbook to the T, ignoring real world temperatures, you will inevitably seize your engine on smaller vespas because the compression and timing run too hot to provide enough cooling at that optimum ignition timing, with modded performance kits installed. So you compromise between maximum performance and maximum cooling by setting the ignition timing to the point it won't overheat and seize on long WOT runs, which is generally more retarded timing than the optimum timing. In this way, you balance the slightly retarded ignition timing with hotter spark plugs and correct jetting to get the WOT temps within the desired range you are trying to keep them under, by making one change, then checking and changing the others to match back and forth until they all work well together and provide the right temps. This is detailed very well in the Jennings article on plug reading; if you advance your timing, you offset it with colder plugs and vice versa, trying to find the right balance for your setup. Which is not what the manufacturer suggested if you added performance parts, like I have with the cylinder and removal of the air filter.

After my most recent run, I am finally getting safe temperatures with city driving mid throttle between 170-200F based on throttle and rpm (and seeing exactly the temp/throttle responses oopsclunkthud described in his posts about CHT and EGT), idling around 186F and 5 min WOT run with 245F that will stay static if at WOT, but if you go down to 3/4 throttle will climb a bit. I think I am finally ready to take it to work next week and see what the temperatures do on 18 mile highway commute. If they stay at the current temps for a much longer WOT run, then I think I may be able to set the ignition timing slightly more advanced to bring out a little more HP and raise the temperatures up closer to 280-300F. I may also need to go up a point or two MJ based on the plug reading attached. We will see! Once I feel a little more confident the jetting and timing is locked down for the current bike setup, then I will post the details I have worked out.

IMG_20190719_161955.jpg

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Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:52 pm quote
approx 105 degrees out today. Turned electrics on my scoot today as it was sitting in shade and CHT gave 105 with engine off for hours. Took it for an hour ride with some short highway rides and it hovered around 180-200F city and 200-240F highway. I'll be riding to work tomorrow for the first time to confirm my long WOT trip stays safe with temps as well.

Finally ready to start commuting by scooter after a year and a couple months of prepping both myself and the scooter!

EDIT: scratch that. After 3 straight days of 96+ heat and sun, I assumed it would continue this week. Just looked at the forecast for the next few days and of course tomorrow and Tuesday it will be pouring out. Just when I am ready to take my first commuting drive to work on the stella! I guess it is postponed until Wednesday.
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:40 am quote
First city commute today
I finally took my Stella to work today. First time over the verazzano bridge. Took the lower level cause it was busier and wanted a slower drive over it for first time. 6mph winds reported are about 10-12 up there in gusts between poles. It was easy drive over the bridge. Traffic the whole way on bqe and I got into hov lane as soon as I could about a mile and half after bridge. That was the only time I got over 45. Unfortunately the hov lane was shut down halfway to Manhattan on the bqe so I had to sit in traffic for half the highway. Not about to illegally lane split on my first commute with 14 wheelers and angry Brooklyn drivers just yet. Battery tunnel and once into the city were easy sailing, still traffic but I was able to get around everyone with ease. Whole trip took an hour and 15. Found parking two blocks away next to a few Harleys that some construction workers park near their construction site off a dead end road near the water with less foot traffic. Unfortunately no temps to report as I barely got up to speed and definitely never drove WOT the whole time.

I'll see if my commute home later is any faster.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:25 am quote
Right on! A little adventure to start the day!
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:34 am quote
qascooter wrote:
Right on! A little adventure to start the day!
It was a relatively boring drive. Ha. I just took a walk around the block at work to go double check all the parking signs in a two block radius from where I parked. It's next to construction of new huge rich apartment towers on the west side, but all the streets say no parking yet there are hundreds of non commercial cars without placards parked on those blocks without tickets and it seems to be the preferred motorcycle parking for the area cause there are about 20 other motorcycles parked around where I parked. Seems a motorcycle is parked inbetween every car. I'll take it! It's too far West on a remote street that is practically new seeing as the whole area is new developments half finished and half under construction. Guess the parking patrol doesn't come anywhere near there cause it's not an area with thru traffic.
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:37 pm quote
Ok so my commute home was much faster, with more of it at speed. I avoided taking HOV lane and any shortcut methods just to see what the base time to home is with normal traffic. It took me 55min with some sitting in traffic for half of Manhattan on the west side highway. Beats 1.5 hrs to 1 hr 45 min by public transportation! Now if I take HOV lane I could get home in 35-40. Going over the Verrazzano at speeds on way home was a much different experience. Driving over the larger of the expansion joints at speed on 10" wheels causes your vespa to kinda slide to the side a little bit. Will take a little getting used to that. Just don't over-steer during it, let the bike do its thing. It was also windier than earlier today so I could feel some bursts between the poles but nothing that bad.

As far as temps, I drove on the west side highway staying in 2nd gear for the most part with a mile or so at a time staying around 6000-7000 rpm. Temps were around 190s. Once out of the battery tunnel and onto the BQE I was mostly 3/4 throttle with some WOT in 4th and temps never got over 217F. There is some sluggishness in 4th if I am not over 5000 RPM when going uphill. It requires a downshift and gunning it in 3rd to overcome the hump around 5000 in 4th. Overall it drives great. BQE is pretty bumpy though with repetitive seams.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:57 pm quote
Temperature is really under control now. What jetting are you on? And how does the plug look?
Unlikely to be any reason the timing shouldn't go back to 16.
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:01 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Temperature is really under control now. What jetting are you on? And how does the plug look?
Unlikely to be any reason the timing shouldn't go back to 16.
I did not check plug tonight as I was running back to do some errands and didn't have time to pull it. I will tomorrow after work. My jetting is the same as before 45/120 idle, 2 full turns air mix, 120/be4/108. It still four strokes slightly at 1/4 throttle when going slow, but if I take off it runs up to WOT without four stroking sound. only when I cruise at medium throttle and transition up and down across 1/4 throttle. I'm not so worried about it as of yet. I will wait till timing and jetting is locked permanently to see if I can solve the four stroking with a throttle slide swap or something.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:17 pm quote
For tomorrow, do the same again with a 106 main jet.

The bogging at 1/4 is all about the pilot jet. The hardest part to get right. No point spending too much time on the pilot until the main is closer. As long as its a mid range slide the jetting can be adjusted to it. Changing slides is fine tuning and you're still at the rough stage.
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Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:39 pm quote
After two days of commuting to work by highway with decent traffic I am confident my temps are safe. Since I haven't shared the full details of it yet on this thread, the past week or so driving locally on city streets my jetting/timing has been set to:

45/120 idle
2 full turns out air mix screw
120/be4/106 MJ
14 degrees ignition
BR7ES plug (kit calls for B8 or B9)

Yesterday was my first commute to work with about half and half highway/city driving for total 18 miles one way. Jack suggested that I go back up to 108 MJ for this first highway run cause we knew it was just below the point of too rich/bogging so it would be safer than running with the 106MJ which is the first jet where it really feels smooth through the whole throttle range. Temps barely got to 215 F only when changing gears and slowing down from higher speed. Average temps are around 180-190F. pinning WOT causes temps to go down pretty quick no matter what temps the gauge is reading.

Today I switched back to 106 MJ for the same commute, similar traffic conditions, slightly higher speed avg through the whole commute both directions with about 4-5 miles of 50-55mph once through the highway traffic and over the bridge. I don't even think temps got over 200F if only slightly higher at like 205F for a very short while. Gunning WOT to get up to speed once traffic cleared up to start the 6 mile 3/4 throttle 55mph stretch temps definitely held steady around 190F.

I will leave it like this for commute tomorrow. But this weekend, I will adjust timing to 16 degrees and run some long highway tests way out the far end of Staten Island where I can ride 10 or so miles at WOT on the highway. Depending on those results I could either stay at 16 degrees or maybe go to 17 or 18 degrees.

One last thing to solve is the slight four stroking at 1/4 throttle which has lessened even more since going back to 106MJ, only present holding 1/4 throttle in first or 2nd gear. in 3rd and 4th holding 1/4 throttle the four stroking is much less pronounced but still barely there. You don't feel it causing any hesitation though as it feels strong from bottom to top when gunning it in 3rd or 4th. As Jack says, this is the idle jet needing some adjustments.

As a side note for those of you who are installing cylinder kits for the first time soon, my fuel economy is meh right now. On stock cylinder with upjetting to make it run better instead of the stock LML emissions jetting, I was getting about 55-60MPG. With my current jetting at 106MJ I am getting 42MPG on that 32 mile round trip mixed speeds. Im sure it will be slightly better on longer trips at highway speeds instead of half and half highway/city traffic. Also hoping that going back to 16 degrees timing will give a slight increase in fuel economy.

Plug images below are not a true WOT plug check. It is more quarter to mid throttle, but after about 60 miles of commuting after installing a new plug.

One of the more experienced guys reading this thread can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the plug is rich and well coated because the timing is too retarded to burn off the excess mixture and self clean? I think going to 16 degrees will clear it up some and get the color to be closer to ideal with less mixture coating the sides. It just isn't getting hot enough to burn off the fuel mixture from the plug.

EDIT: corrected the main stack.. air corrector is 120, not 160.

IMG_20190725_194646.jpg
45/120 idle
2 full turns out air mix screw
120/be4/106 MJ
14 degrees ignition
BR7ES plug

IMG_20190725_194614.jpg
45/120 idle
2 full turns out air mix screw
120/be4/106 MJ
14 degrees ignition
BR7ES plug

IMG_20190725_194619.jpg
45/120 idle
2 full turns out air mix screw
120/be4/106 MJ
14 degrees ignition
BR7ES plug

IMG_20190725_194640.jpg
45/120 idle
2 full turns out air mix screw
120/be4/106 MJ
14 degrees ignition
BR7ES plug



Last edited by swiss1939 on Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:46 pm quote
I've also received a new dual gauge off eBay for pretty cheap compared to list price. Based on oopsclunkthud's gauge suggestions of a 2" Westach 2DC1 dual EGT/CHT gauge, I found a larger 3 1/8" Westach 3DA1 version on eBay brand new for half the price including shipping from Australia! It also included a spark plug thermocouple, unfortunately its a way larger spark plug diameter. I ordered the EGT sender oopsclunkthud suggests directly from Westach for full price 712-20DWK and received it already. I will need to order the correct size spark plug sender from Westach as well as a 4 pin patch cable to extend the lines out enough to mount it to the glove box. I'll probably install this on my P200 project whenever I get to that point, but I will throw it on this bike to test it out and compare temps.

Hopefully I can find another one for cheap on eBay as I kinda like this one better than the KOSO gauge for three reasons:

1.) does not require power source.. gauge works simply on changes to the resistance caused by heat changes of the temp sensor.

2.) spark plug sensor is way more sturdy from westach.. both ends, not made from cheap aluminum but solid metal/brass piece with a strong wire coming out of it. The koso sensor looks nice, but the rings are easily broken and the heat shrink on the sensor/connector cannot withstand the normal operating temperatures, so if you are removing the plug right after running while engine is still hot to check plug, the connector wiring falls apart after a few times. Also the sensor itself breaks easily once the ring/wiring starts to fall apart.

3.) my koso gauge, while I love the look of it.. is actually very hard to read in daylight with sunglasses on. the polarization of the glasses makes the gauge screen black and impossible to see depending on the sun angle.

If I can find a second dual gauge I will replace the Koso CHT gauge/sensor on this bike with westach and keep the KOSO rpm gauge on it. For some reason I do not have problem viewing the rpm gauge with sunglasses on. must be positioned to reflect the sun light differently because it is closer to me than the temp sensor.

s-l1600.jpg
Westach 3DA1 3 1/8" Dual temp gauge (EGT/CHT)

712-4WK.jpg
Westach cht sensor. much stronger than the koso one. I spend way too much money buying spare connectors and spark plug rings with all the jetting i've done lately.

DL-01T_2_-600x600.jpg
Koso temperature sensor. love the look, but difficult to see with sunglasses on.

Cylinder-Head_Temperature-Sensors-02_2.jpg
koso temp sensor. those rings are replaceable, but made so cheaply they break constantly. built in obsolescence! KEEP GIVING US MONEY! no thanks.

img_20190108_184726_40104.jpg
installed on my bike. hard to see with sunglasses on during the day.

Molto Verboso
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Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:10 pm quote
Good progress. Plug not getting hot enough but still plenty rich on 106. Keep everything the same for now and go 16 degrees, maybe even 17. The hotter it gets the more efficient it will be but this only stands until it blows up or wears out prematurely.
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:48 am quote
Swiss - Jack - Thanks!
Watching this play out/ related to my own experience - super interesting/ expanding my understanding.

Swiss - I've taken a totally different route on jetting.
Used WOT/top speed/temp as my guide - haven't pulled plug - yet
But our experience/ status seems close.
Upgraded motor - added exhaust and venturi inlet - minor porting to inlet.
Removed filter and carb box top.
160/BE3/ stack recommended by Jack as base.
Worked with MJ.
Went from 102 to 128 with pipe and venturi.
Started at 112 thinking that would be plenty - but top speed/power keeps rising with larger main.

Temps and temp fluctuation based on throttle almost identical to yours.
Very tough to get over 220 unless I am absolutely lugging at 4000 RPM - then maybe 250 if long stretch. Never seen high 200's or 3's on gauge.

Four stroking on 1/8 throttle when holding 15-20MPH hold/cruz, disappears on hard throttle acceleration as yours does.
Have started to walk down idle ratio: 3.3, 3.25, 3.1 - four stroking remains but perhaps a little lighter. Suspect I still don't have idle jet right - perhaps also like yours.
Interested to read Jack's comment about challenge of idle jet.

Discussion on timing, lifting heat, has me intrigued.
Following along to see additional results.
Thans for posting details - insightful for a number of us I'm sure.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:52 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - Jack - Thanks!
Watching this play out - super interesting/ expanding my understanding.

Thanks for posting details - insightful for a number of us I'm sure.
Very insightful. I second CMs thoughts. Thank you!
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:46 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss - Jack - Thanks!
Watching this play out/ related to my own experience - super interesting/ expanding my understanding.

Swiss - I've taken a totally different route on jetting.
Used WOT/top speed/temp as my guide - haven't pulled plug - yet
But our experience/ status seems close.
Upgraded motor - added exhaust and venturi inlet - minor porting to inlet.
Removed filter and carb box top.
160/BE3/ stack recommended by Jack as base.
Worked with MJ.
Went from 102 to 128 with pipe and venturi.
Started at 112 thinking that would be plenty - but top speed/power keeps rising with larger main.

Temps and temp fluctuation based on throttle almost identical to yours.
Very tough to get over 220 unless I am absolutely lugging at 4000 RPM - then maybe 250 if long stretch. Never seen high 200's or 3's on gauge.

Four stroking on 1/8 throttle when holding 15-20MPH hold/cruz, disappears on hard throttle acceleration as yours does.
Have started to walk down idle ratio: 3.3, 3.25, 3.1 - four stroking remains but perhaps a little lighter. Suspect I still don't have idle jet right - perhaps also like yours.
Interested to read Jack's comment about challenge of idle jet.

Discussion on timing, lifting heat, has me intrigued.
Following along to see additional results.
Thans for posting details - insightful for a number of us I'm sure.
Great! Keep me posted on your results. Timing and plug heat ranges play into it and I've been changing both around in bid to control temps from my originally way too hot setup. I'm curious how your idle four stroking resolves as it's something that plagues my setup constantly and hope to fix. Performance isn't affected much by it but I know it should be fixed and is all I can think about when hearing it. Need to get it right or it will bother me forever. Also looking forward to a return of normal fuel economy Jack!
qascooter wrote:
Very insightful. I second CMs thoughts. Thank you!
No problem. I just hope this all sinks in and I can do it on my own in the future without constant guidance from Jack! He's got an extensive consulting business going on right now on mv getting everyone's bikes jetted correctly!
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:28 pm quote
Quote:
constant guidance from Jack
Uh huh - Jack's got his mark on scooters around the world.
He doles out insights and people do their version of listening.
Boys at his local pub are probably used to seeing him on a Fri night look at his phone, then mutter something like: "why in the fuck would you do that mate?"
Quote:
Keep me posted on your results
Will do - have a question:
When it comes to reading plugs - I have seen conflicting comments/direction (shocking to find, I know). Left me unclear.

I've seen guys do it by putting a new plug in - driving WOT for 45 seconds - then shutting down without even letting off throttle. Coasting to stop - and pulling plug.

But I have also seen comments - gascoot's thread for example- where people have said the plug hasn't been used enough to read. That seams at odds with having a fresh plug used for reading.

Additionally - seen plugs just pulled and read after broad range of use - you have been doing that here a fair amount - I believe.

How often are you using a new plug to get a read?
What's been your best method for creating color you can make decisions on?
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:56 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
constant guidance from Jack
Uh huh - Jack's got his mark on scooters around the world.
He doles out insights and people do their version of listening.
Boys at his local pub are probably used to seeing him on a Fri night look at his phone, then mutter something like: "why in the fuck would you do that mate?"
Quote:
Keep me posted on your results
Will do - have a question:
When it comes to reading plugs - I have seen conflicting comments/direction (shocking to find, I know). Left me unclear.

I've seen guys do it by putting a new plug in - driving WOT for 45 seconds - then shutting down without even letting off throttle. Coasting to stop - and pulling plug.

But I have also seen comments - gascoot's thread for example- where people have said the plug hasn't been used enough to read. That seams at odds with having a fresh plug used for reading.

Additionally - seen plugs just pulled and read after broad range of use - you have been doing that here a fair amount - I believe.

How often are you using a new plug to get a read?
What's been your best method for creating color you can make decisions on?
I had seen people mention fresh plugs before every check when I first started and have a big pile of barely used plugs that I spent too much money on. Then Jack and a few others mentioned to just forget about fresh plugs and I was sick of buying plugs just to do checks cause I'm gonna take way more attempts to figure out my jetting than someone with years experience as everyone has seen on this thread.

So I use one plug for a while until I feel like it could help to get a fresh start, generally if I'm doing major change from previous Jetting. I've read in the two stroke tuners book that he suggests only doing a fresh plug when you are at the end of your Jetting and just to check the air mix settings to make sure the mixture is right which can be seen with the slightest smoke ring around the base of the plug that you can only see by chopping the sheath off of.

I'm probably wrong and if so someone will correct me here, but this is generally how I check the plug. I live in the city and don't really have a super long straight road to do long runs and check. So I've found a few sections of various roads to test different throttle positions on. I tend to do my wot checks in 2nd gear as it's less high speed so that I can do it on shorter stretches of road. I have found it difficult to do an accurate plug check on long highway runs because there is no real safe way to shut down and pull over immediately when getting off the highway in nyc. You are immediately in traffic. I've also gotta contend with traffic and pedestrians so my runs are probably not that long compared to most people cause I try to do it safely and not be an ass on the road too much.

What I do is put a fresh plug in and run it for 50-60 miles before I even look at it so that it gets a base color that is good to show you the jetting conditions for your average driving over that 60 miles. Then I'll do a wot test which is generally only about 5 seconds past max rpm where it tops out then just keeps bouncing up against it's limit. I'll pull clutch and turn bike off at speed and coast to a stop. When I look at the plug I'll assume the outer edges of the plug and deep into the sheath are not a picture of my run, but left over from the general running conditions. I'll look at the electrode tip and insulator tip for the color of the wot run assuming this is the hottest part of the plug so it's the most accurate representation of the most recent driving conditions. If I'm checking other throttle ranges I'll do the same for quarter throttle or what not and make the same educated guess about the plug color based on where the color is on the plug. If I do a shorter run then I consider a smaller area of those sections of the plug. If it's a longer run I'll consider further out from center color.
On the wot runs you'll really see lean or rich conditions on the electrode tip even for shorter runs. So I do a fair bit of educated guessing taking into account length of run and what kind of driving I have been doing for 10-20 miles before checking.

Plug heat ranges I assume is reflected more in the color saturation of the plug check. So if I check the plug and I know it's not too rich, but the brown is dark almost black then it's too cold. If it's whitish, pale and especially got molten spots or the insulator tip looks like it's porous like it's dry ceramics instead of slightly saturated then the plug is too hot. If it's milk chocolate with red in it then I know the heat range of the plug is good. Same goes for timing.

Jack has been very helpful in this manner of reading plugs and had shown me a correct plug that helps understand what you are looking for.

Btw, excuse my random word capitalizing and occasional wrong words. Damn auto correct on my phone is atrocious! Constantly pissing me off!
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:44 pm quote
Temp update..
The previously reported temps from commuting were off and inaccurate. When I pulled the plug to check I noticed my sensor spark plug ring was broken in half and bent out so that only half the ring was under the plug and the other half dangling away from the cylinder. Quick test tonight with new ring replaced onto sensor and visually confirmed installed without breaking proved temps previously reported were low by about 50-70f. I'll spend decent time tomorrow with long highway trips testing the temps again before I make any changes and report back here.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1570

Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:19 pm quote
Re: Temp update..
swiss1939 wrote:
The previously reported temps from commuting were off and inaccurate. When I pulled the plug to check I noticed my sensor spark plug ring was broken in half and bent out so that only half the ring was under the plug and the other half dangling away from the cylinder. Quick test tonight with new ring replaced onto sensor and visually confirmed installed without breaking proved temps previously reported were low by about 50-70f. I'll spend decent time tomorrow with long highway trips testing the temps again before I make any changes and report back here.
I was wondering how you had your temps so darn low. My Pinasco 215 runs about 310ish at 55mph, 320 degrees at about 60mph, but then drops to around 315 degrees at 70mph. No idea what my WOT top speed is yet. I'd like to drop my temps about 15 to 20 degrees. I think my main jet is pretty good. I'm hoping to get around to adjusting my timing (in the next few days) a few degrees to see if that will do the trick.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:31 pm quote
Well that wasted some time. Need to know where the temperature is with the 106 before doing anything else.
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:53 pm quote
Quote:
Damn auto correct on my phone is atrocious!
Swiss - gracious - you typed that with your thumbs?!!?
Great recap!
Thanks for walking me through your method - thinking.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:56 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
Damn auto correct on my phone is atrocious!
Swiss - gracious - you typed that with your thumbs?!!?
Great recap!
Thanks for walking me through your method - thinking.
I use the google version of swype to trace between letters instead of typing each one. That's why my auto correct sucks so bad when on phone. It likes to assume the wrong words based on my fat finger traces. Unfortunately when I'm at work, no internet on my work computer cause it's connected to the intranet. So I gotta use my phone all day for the web.

Hopefully the thoughts help you although I am a beginner at all of this so I don't expect I am very accurate in my assumptions.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:05 pm quote
truck headliner aside.. failed
Had to finish my truck headliner today to get that thing out of the way. I'll re-install it tomorrow once its set for 24hrs. This was literally the hardest thing ive done so far. Funny how gluing fabric to a fiberglass shell is harder than working on a two stroke engine. Pissed off cause it came out bumpy, bubbly and wrinkled in corners cause I did too large of sections at once and didn't have enough width in my garage to walk around it while doing it. I watched a youtube video of a guy doing it and he coated one half then applied and then did the other half and applied. I tried to do that and it was a mistake cause the glue was setting faster than I could get it down smooth and fill in the curvature. So i'm left with kinda crappy headliner that will probably start to fall apart again in a year or two. To make it worse, when I was done, I took off gloves that were covered in glue and my hands were too sweaty to get new gloves on, so I threw my dirty work gloves on that are looser fitting and picked it up with the dirty gloves and got oil fingerprints all over the new fabric. so annoyed!

Next time I'll pay someone to do it for me cause that was a pain in the ass!

Aside from that, the spray gun was super easy to work with. I'll definitely be painting some vespa stuff in the future, and expect it to be way easier since I'll have smaller parts that I can easily walk around to paint.

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MVIMG_20190727_144441.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6996
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:26 pm quote
headliner threadjack on:

I did my VW headliner in Greece, similar story except I used aerosol spray glue. Worked out fairly well but for that fitting into the corners bit. Got it installed nicely and was rather proud of my work until a couple of weeks later when it was a really hot day and parked in the sun. Yep, all the glue let go, back to square one.

BTW, yours looks fairly decent to me. Trick photography?

/headliner threadjack
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:04 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
headliner threadjack on:

I did my VW headliner in Greece, similar story except I used aerosol spray glue. Worked out fairly well but for that fitting into the corners bit. Got it installed nicely and was rather proud of my work until a couple of weeks later when it was a really hot day and parked in the sun. Yep, all the glue let go, back to square one.

BTW, yours looks fairly decent to me. Trick photography?

/headliner threadjack
get up close with different angle on the lighting and its rough looking. Plus I didn't photograph it after i got 2 stroke finger prints all over it. so mad!

Sorry to hear about your collapsing headliner weeks later. I fully expect mine to do the same in short order. I'll be happy if it lasts a year or two before I have to pay someone to do it right. It cost me about $100 in fabric and gallon of automotive contact adhesive. the spray gun was another 50 but I'm using it for other projects so I won't count it for this. I guess it's worth it to pay someone $300 +/- to do it right when it cost me $100 to do it wrong! I tried the home depot spray can glue stuff previously when it started to fall down and it was useless. This gallon can of glue I got was what they used in a few of the youtube videos I watched done by auto interior guys so I figured it is stronger, which it is after using it. If I got it stuck together before it was smoothed out I had hell of a time pulling the fabric off to reposition. I do expect it to fall off in those areas because pulling it off would cause the glue to come off with it as the glue dried into a thick gelatinous layer between the fabric and fiberglass surface that probably lost its adhesiveness when I pulled it off to reposition.

EDIT: I believe in fluid discussions, so I don't prescribe to threadjacking as a bad thing, nor is this threadjacking when I brought it up already in my own thread. If something discussed brings something related to mind then its all fair game to me. That's why its a discussion!
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:11 pm quote
EZ Pass holder
This past week when I drove to work for 2 days, I tried using my ez pass transponder by putting it in the front pocket of my kevlar riding shirt figuring it would be easily recognized. Not sure if the kevlar lining in a typical riding shirt blocks the transponder or not, but it did not recognize them at the bridge or tunnel both days. Instead ez pass used my plate photo to bill my account.

I have searched in the past for an ez pass holder that could work on vespas. I never found anything that looked satisfactory that wasn't bulky and or expensive. I went looking again the other night after realizing my front pocket wasn't cutting it and found an ez pass holder that I thought had potential in that it wasn't bulky and made of hard plastic or metal and was relatively cheap, so I bought it. It came in 2 days cause the company is in Long Island.

https://www.blackbeardsgear.com/online-store/Toll-Pass-Motorcycle-Holder-p111638996

This thing is made of really soft but sturdy rubber with only a small piece of metal going through the center of it surrounded by this thick soft rubber. The rubber is formed on the back to mount to a motorcycle bar, and its got a long tab that acts as the strap to hold it to the bar and hold the transponder to the front by way of two slits in the strap that attach to the metal bar on both sides. I think I could mount it to my cell phone mount arm or maybe one of the hand grips.

IMG_20190727_235141.jpg
Blackbeard Motorcycle toll pass holder

IMG_20190727_235200.jpg
thick rubber

IMG_20190727_235223.jpg
metal bar well protected from scratching anything with thick rubber around it.

MVIMG_20190727_235302.jpg
the strap has 2 vertical slits for attaching to hooks on the metal bar at both ends.

IMG_20190727_235315.jpg
Wrap the strap around the back to mount it to bar on the vehicle, using the metal hook and first slit as the bar attachment.

IMG_20190727_235400.jpg
then wrap the rest of the strap around the front using the slit at the end of the strap to attach to the other metal hook and holding the transponder below the strap on the top side

IMG_20190727_235405.jpg
slide transponder underneath strap to hold in place.

IMG_20190727_235330.jpg
I'll figure out a place to mount this to. not really a lot of options for bars at this thickness on the vespa.

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1178
Location: Florence, OR
Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:27 pm quote
I zip-tied a big-ass thick piece of rubber on the mirror stem and used that to attach stuff made for thicker bars, specifically a phone mount. This is on my GTS-250.

On your ride, you can always mount a spare mirror mount backwards and attach it to that. Or make one out of a piece o metal that'll be long enough to mount to.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:34 pm quote
my final update on my own threadjack. headliner installed again. did such a crap job on it, but whatever! If/when this thing falls down I'm paying someone to do it next time. What a pain in the ass to do! pictures never really depict the level of crap it actually is. lots of wrinkles and bumps plus a few spots where the cuts were too close to the edge and peek out from behind.

finally room for scooter maintenance and restoration in my garage again!

IMG_20190728_135014.jpg

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Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:39 pm quote
Last update for a couple weeks.
Plug looks great but temps are still way too hot at WOT, 400F and counting. this kit is proving to be more difficult to jet safely even at PNP. Posting just to keep people in the loop.

120/be4/104 MJ
45/120 idle
1.75 full turns air mix
BR7ES
12 degrees timing

MVIMG_20190801_143521.jpg

IMG_20190801_143514.jpg

IMG_20190801_143356.jpg

IMG_20190801_143347.jpg

IMG_20190801_143514_timing.jpg
12 degrees looks right in terms of this symptom. but temps are still hot. stumped.

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Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:20 pm quote
I also received a second westach dual gauge EGT/CHT and all the parts to build a digital EGT using an arduino board from code provided by SaFiS. So when I get back I have quite a few projects to complete.

I'm really curious how the westach gauge and analog cht sensor differ from the koso digital, and how my exhaust temps will look comparing the westach analog to the arduino digital.

Westach Dual EGT/CHT gauges for both bikes!
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1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:02 pm quote
Main is way too lean. You need to be at least in the 110-115 range.
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Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:06 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Main is way too lean. You need to be at least in the 110-115 range.
That is with a 160 AC. I am at 120 AC so 120/be4/104 is way richer than 160/be4/115.. no?

I believe the equivalent of my current jetting at 160 AC would be 160/be4/139, and for 140 AC would be 140/be4/122.
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Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:53 pm quote
No. I donít think itís that linear. A certain minimum amount of fuel needs to flow over the top end to keep it cool. No matter what size air corrector you have, your kit requires more gas than a 105 main is capable of delivering at sustained WOT. I think you may be confusing AF ratio with fuel flow.
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