Stella 2T highway/performance upgrades
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:08 am quote
Detailed scrutiny of this bore and there are two small scratches. I think they could be honed out unless someone thinks otherwise.

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From transfer port edge going up toward top of cyl

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Detail shot

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Angled view of same scratch. Can't even see it

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Couple small barely noticeable scratches below port

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:49 am quote
Can you feel the scratches with your fingernail? If so, i would lean towards getting the cylinder rebored. Think of it this way, you need a new piston anyhow, and the cost between a hone and a bore isn't too much (at least the shop that i use).
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Posts: 4822
Location: So Cal
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:26 am quote
Welcome back swiss. Donít think a hone is going to cut it. Iíd either get it bored or trash it and start fresh.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:21 pm quote
Just took cylinder and head to the ATV/jet ski shop around the block who said they can do re-bore. He said if it needs it, it would be around $100USD with re-bore and chamfering, but once I showed him the cylinder and that one scratch he thinks he can hone it out and said it didn't look bad at all compared to pictures. Also said head could be sanded down at minimum easily or reworked if needed. I left shop and said I'd be back once parts ordered, but now I realize I need to have him try to hone it out first before I can order parts, cause I don't know if I need to order the stock or oversized piston.

Also, reed pedals were fine.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:07 pm quote
I would just run that as it is. Seen way worse run just fine.
Use this until after the rebuild, keep your money and save it up to buy a Malossi 177, this will be a 190 with the 60mm crank.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:19 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
I would just run that as it is. Seen way worse run just fine.
Use this until after the rebuild, keep your money and save it up to buy a Malossi 177, this will be a 190 with the 60mm crank.
Ok so you are suggesting not to crack cases now, but to just slap everything back on with new piston for now? I will have it re-honed, sand the head marks down slightly and replace the piston with the "0" size piston that comes stock with it.

You are suggesting this Malossi 177 kit that SaFis shared on my discontinued thread? https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+malossi+sport+_31176760
And you still prefer this 177 kit for timings over the MHR kit? I am all for this as it is still a cheap kit, same price as the 166 kit. Is the included piston a quality piston?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:24 am quote
This kit is the one to save for. https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+cylinder+malossi+mhr+_31171630
doesn't say LML but fits everything else.

Is the old piston damaged too much? I really would spend the absolute minimum on that. Just rings and run it, if just minor damage. It's honed once already. Doing it again might be worse than not doing it.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
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Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:51 am quote
there is a gouge the length of the piston that is relatively deep. also there are many chunks missing around the edges of the top and one large one at the bottom of the skirt. I'd say all the chunks are a couple millimeters deep and the scratch the length of the piston is probably 1-2mm deep.

I already gave it to the shop to re-hone and clean up the head so we'll see how it runs. I guess I could run same piston, but I'm ok with the cost of a piston as I was preparing myself for the cost of everything. Should I try to sand down the damage on the piston or will that make it worse? I will try new rings and same ol piston once I get the cylinder and head back. If that doesn't work then I'll get a new piston same size.

If buying a new piston is all I need, then I can swallow that cost as a result of my mistake. It's the cost of learning from mistakes.

But now that this is damaged, I'm feeling more free to experiment with it in terms of grinding it in the future. I may try to play with it more by widening and grinding exhaust port when rebuilding the engine before replacing with that mhr kit. I want to get the practice and mistakes out on this kit prior to spending on a more expensive kit.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
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Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:21 am quote
I'm thinking just clean up the damage on the piston top edge to remove any sharp burrs, and then clean the skirts up like how FMP does it in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaOOX03Ucpk
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1419
Location: London UK
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:48 pm quote
Why you not showing us a picture of the piston? Damage around the rings can be terminal but has to be like a crack. I've taken cylinders off where the rings are just gone, missing. And no damage whatsoever. I feel its reusable....you've not mentioned crack.

Don't drill any holes in the exhaust side of a piston. Crankcase mixture will escape into the exhaust port.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:26 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Why you not showing us a picture of the piston? Damage around the rings can be terminal but has to be like a crack. I've taken cylinders off where the rings are just gone, missing. And no damage whatsoever. I feel its reusable....you've not mentioned crack.

Don't drill any holes in the exhaust side of a piston. Crankcase mixture will escape into the exhaust port.
I posted many pictures of the piston. They are on the previous page...
http://modernvespa.com/forum/post2340965#2340965

From your statement, it sounds like this piston is not usable as the long gouge in the side of the piston is on the exhaust side and probably the reason why it lost all compression. Need a few weeks before I can order a new piston.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:04 pm quote
Swiss - what size piston is it?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:07 pm quote
*edit: is t a true 63mm or slightly smaller ? Can't remember
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:19 pm quote
61mm bore not 63. Didn't measure the piston until after but I believe it's slightly smaller than 61.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:53 pm quote
Didn't check the previous page, think I missed a day. Piston is ok. Clean it up and get it back in. It will last until the winter strip down.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:19 am quote
Piston refurbish
Here is my cleanup of the piston. I'm concerned the two or three dimples along the top edge that reach from top of piston to first ring and between first and second ring will prevent a seal from forming. I guess it's worth a shot though for $26 in rings. I also had to hammer the gudgeon pin out with socket pretty hard and realized it damaged the inside surface. So I saved that down and hope it won't cause an issue with the gudgeon pin. If this works it will be a nice cheap temporary solution until I can rebuild engine later.

I really want to get the p200 engine/scoot running before I do this rebuild but things keep pushing that to the background. If this solution works that would move the p200 up to the front.

Btw, most of those dimples are approx 0.15mm deep. The biggest one of around 0.23mm.

IMG_20190818_132917.jpg

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Same dent from top angle

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Dent in pin slot

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Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 535
Location: California
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:45 am quote
welcome back Swiss looks like the ring slots may need some attention.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:06 am quote
hibbert wrote:
welcome back Swiss looks like the ring slots may need some attention.
That's what I was wondering. I should sand down any area that isn't level with the rest correct? The piston damage has created a few spots where the metal warped into the ring slots.
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Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
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Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:21 am quote
from the photo's it looks like the gouge on the crown transfered down into the top ring groove & pinched the ring. Does the ring float freely in the piston/groove or is it restricted? To me I'm not as concerned about the gouge as I am about the rings working.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:32 am quote
hibbert wrote:
from the photo's it looks like the gouge on the crown transfered down into the top ring groove & pinched the ring. Does the ring float freely in the piston/groove or is it restricted? To me I'm not as concerned about the gouge as I am about the rings working.
They were restricted. I am replacing them and will sand the slots down to allow free movement.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 591
Location: california
Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:56 pm quote
400 grit and paper wrapped around a razor blade can give a nice square edge inside the ring seat.

Sand inside groove and the. Rotate piston a mm and repeat.
Use back of ring slid on to see if I've done enough. Will clean right up.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1635

Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:00 pm quote
Mix a large amount of JB Weld, and put the whole dollop of that metal epoxy over the top of the piston "soft and serve" ice cream style. Let it drizzle down the sides, and when it sets up, come back and smooth off all the high spots. Done and done.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:16 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Mix a large amount of JB Weld, and put the whole dollop of that metal epoxy over the top of the piston "soft and serve" ice cream style. Let it drizzle down the sides, and when it sets up, come back and smooth off all the high spots. Done and done.
I don't know if this is serious or not.. a la duct tape suggestions.. but I think I'll skip this for now!

I was planning on getting it running again today, but the shop that I dropped the cylinder and head off to hadn't finished the hone yet and said he had to order a new tool for the right size, but it needed to get cut down once he got it and hadn't gotten to it yet. Said it wouldn't be ready till monday. I was planning on just taking it back today regardless of if he had done the hone on it or not, and just running it as is with new rings and cleaned up piston. But since he said he had gone through all this trouble to get the correct tool and started to "cut the blades down for this cylinder" but hadn't finished, I felt it would be offensive to say screw it and take the cylinder back before he finished. Kinda ruined my weekend plans to get it running again. So now I'll have to wait till my only day off next sunday to see if I can get it together and running again.

I just spent time cleaning up the ring slots on the piston. I did not try the razor blade trick but that is a good suggestion. Instead I just took a sheet of 220 grit and stuck it in the slot and held it slightly curved over the edge of the slot I was cleaning up and just lightly moved it up and down along the desired edge until it cleaned up the slots in the concerning areas. It may still need a little cleanup in one or two places, or just a good wash, as I tried fitting the rings and it was just slightly sticking, but felt free enough. Wasn't sure if it was the slots too tight or just gunk from the oil and sanding that was catching slightly.

Either way, I had today and tomorrow to try to get it running and set up again, but now I'm dead in the water until next sunday. Looks like it might be another month before I can get it fully set up and carb set up safely for highway commuting again (given it was still getting too hot at what was close to correct jetting prior to my disaster).

I love these bikes, but part of me is considering buying a cheap used harley dedicated for commuting, and just keeping the stella and p200 as casual riding not for commuting for now (until I am confident they will handle the commute without overheating or seizing), as I spend all my time working on the scooters instead of commuting, and the harley would just work as is for that commute. I would prefer to use the vespas, but I just see a realistic estimate of not commuting with one of these for another couple months given how much spare time I have to really get the jetting set up correctly so it wont blow up.

With all this down time waiting to get the kit running again, I have re-examined the malossi manual closer again and I am confused on which spark plug is the correct one again. We came to the conclusion right before my disaster that it should be a short thread plug, but the two pages on this manual contradict each other.

the first page discussing plug shows a table with each model and the correct plug for each model. My model is 3117181 and this page shows IW F 24 for sport and IW F 27 for MHR. the paragraph to the left which I didn't catch in my photo says use IW F 24 for standard use, and use IW F 27 for extreme use.

The next page then completely contradicts this and says:
"Attention: A short thread spark plug is used as standard. After fitting the malossi kit a LONG thread spark plug is needed as follows: IW 24 for sport, IW 27 For MHR."

So which is it? I was on long thread prior to the disaster, then switched to the NGK equivalent of IW F 24 when the disaster happened due to too lean jetting.

IMG_20190824_135808.jpg
first page. says short thread is needed on this kit.

IMG_20190824_135819.jpg
second page contradicts first page and says long thread is needed.

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Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 535
Location: California
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:39 pm quote
Swiss this is strange and sorry for not being totally familiar with the Malossi but looking at the head photo it looks like the angle of the spark plug is sideways? Can you take another with the long plug installed?

C8AD88F3-5E81-445E-BEB0-CACE00B5A46B.jpeg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:10 pm quote
Yes it is the default plug hole location, not the center mount plug. I do not have the MHR kit, I have the 166 MK III.

Unfortunately I can't take a pic of the plug mounted in head for another week as the shop has both my cylinder and head. But as soon as I get it, I will take pics with both mounted.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:11 pm quote
Swiss,
I have basically the same head now on mine.
It came with no instructions - tho it looks like they may be of limited use...
Basic rule is that you don't want threads exposed.
If interested - here is my head with a long plug in - comes just to the end of the threads.
That's what I went with based on fit.

IMG_1581.JPG

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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:29 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss,
I have basically the same head now on mine.
It came with no instructions - tho it looks like they may be of limited use...
Basic rule is that you don't want threads exposed.
If interested - here is my head with a long plug in - comes just to the end of the threads.
That's what I went with based on fit.
looks like you shaved your head down? What cylinder are you using that with?
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Location: california
Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:32 pm quote
Its married to a Polini 177.
The head is sold by SIP - modified by MMW.
They do the shaving to fit.
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Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
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Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:49 am quote
looks like long reach is good so where did all that shrapnel come from? Looks like something bounced around where did it come from?
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:54 am quote
Shrapnel was molten aluminum from the head and piston top when it had preignition I'm assuming. The rings were intact.
Member
05 STELLA 2T
Joined: 10 Oct 2013
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Location: Hurricane WV
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:38 pm quote
Any progress ?
Thanks for posting ! Great info. I also have an 05 Stella with the 166 kit that I've been wrenching on for a few years.

I'm looking forward to how it runs when back together
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:52 pm quote
Working late shift tomorrow so I will hopefully be ring to reassemble and get it running before work. Gonna head to shop in morning and see if they are done with my cylinder. If not, I'm taking it home as is and will work with it as is.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:21 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Swiss,
I have basically the same head now on mine.
It came with no instructions - tho it looks like they may be of limited use...
Basic rule is that you don't want threads exposed.
If interested - here is my head with a long plug in - comes just to the end of the threads.
That's what I went with based on fit.
Here is my head with short and long thread. appears long thread is correct as you have shown previously. their instruction manual is confusing on this topic.

I took the cylinder and head back from shop which did not do anything. So I cleaned up the head slightly with 220 grit to smooth out the pre-ignition marks.

Will at minimum get it back together before work at 2pm today. tomorrow same shift so hopefully I will be able to start it up and get it running at least with safe rich jetting.

IMG_20190829_110251.jpg
HS short plug.

IMG_20190829_105844.jpg
ES long plug

IMG_20190829_110202.jpg
cleaned up head with 220 grit.

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Location: california
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:38 am quote
Swiss - Assume you are familiar with "lapping" where you use a very flat surface - like a small plate of glass sheet - put some sandpaper on it, and slide the head around. Bit of wd40 sprayed when doing it with aluminum can be helpful.
Wont change the pitting inside the chamber & squish zone of course.
But it will ensure a good mating surface for the head to seal with (believe yours also has an O ring).

As for pitting inside chamber - I would just check that you don't have any raised areas - where the metal gets thin. That could create glowing hot spots of metal. In other words - you can survive a little pitting - but you don't really want any of it to be proud. dremel or hand sand are your friends.

Others with greater experience can/should jump in if disagree.
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1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:48 am quote
Yes charlieman22, my 220 grit cleaned up any raised points. Also lapped the head surface with 1200 as I did when originally installing.

This thing should run unless there is another issue I am not aware of yet.

Currently cleaning carb in ultrasonic cleaner for rebuild of that before I put it all back together.
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Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:43 am quote
Your cylinder:
Taken a few shots - ready for next round.

Screen Shot 2019-08-29 at 9.40.51 AM.jpg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:05 am quote
D'ya like dags?

I've always been partial to this character instead. ha!
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:10 am quote
Got the reed valve plate and carb back on after checking to make sure reed valves were still good.

Didn't get the piston back on yet as the damn c clips are the bane of my existence.

Anyone know if you can replace these really annoying c clips:
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/gudgeon+pin+clip+malossi+_m364416

with the appropriately same size thickness and roundness more user friendly c clips, without any issues?
https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/gudgeon+pin+clip+meteor+for_66150000
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:06 pm quote
Here is the piston with ring slots cleaned up.

IMG_20190829_113742.jpg

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IMG_20190829_113753_exported_2958344913946284139.jpg

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:09 am quote
About to reinstall cylinder again. I just came up with a simple trick to help when mounting cylinder while engine is still in frame. I tried the suggested lowering of engine by removing a bolt and tilting engine to make room to install or remove cylinder while studs still in but it still wouldn't give me enough room to remove or install cylinder.

So here is this helpful visual aid I did to help me when installing the studs after sliding the cylinder on. Painted the studs with bright yellow construction pen at the end of threads to mark the deepest point to install studs. Makes it easier to see when everything is in there and it's darker and difficult to see.

IMG_20190830_110409.jpg

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