62 Allstate Cruisaire - getting it back on the road
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5655
Location: So Cal
Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:52 pm quote
Nice Scott... getting there.

Managed to squeeze 72mph out of old yeller (on 8ís) on a slight downhill.

Itís not as hairy as it sounds on 8ís if the suspension and tires are good.

F337DCEC-8CDE-4EB8-911B-E1B014FE358C.jpeg

Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:58 pm quote
I love it!

And, of course, when I split the cases to replace seals, bearings, shift cross, etc, I'll open up the intake and match it with the carb. Right now it's a little dinky hole.

Then the tuning starts all over again! But for now - I'm gonna ride, baby, ride...
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2295

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:48 pm quote
Scott I tried the 3-4 turns out today and turned inward until the revs raised and had to turn the idle way in or it was just revving too low before I could start turning inward, its going to take me another shot at it because I ended up right where I started. I did find going from the 118 main down to the 116 really cleaned up the throttle, felt good, even my 1-2nd gear shifting felt better.

Just curious what you're referring to a half throttle flat spot , that is after getting in top gear which I think you had said its a 3 speed right?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:48 pm quote
With a BE5 it is unlikely there is a significant flat spot at 1/2 but maybe more like 1/3? If it is more like 1/2 there is an issue which isn't the pilot jet.

What are all the jets in the carb? And what size main jet started to splutter at WOT?

Important to get this right. Apart from not going well or being comfortable to ride, poor jetting increases wear.
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:32 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
With a BE5 it is unlikely there is a significant flat spot at 1/2 but maybe more like 1/3? If it is more like 1/2 there is an issue which isn't the pilot jet.

What are all the jets in the carb? And what size main jet started to splutter at WOT?

Important to get this right. Apart from not going well or being comfortable to ride, poor jetting increases wear.
Thanks Jack. Currently there is

38-120 Pilot
120/BE5/109

And I consulted my "notes", or lack of them, and don't know what I started with to get the splutter at WOT. And it was probably more like at 1/3, cause I'm constantly varying the throttle at this stage of the game.

I'll start over and drop in a 116 or 118 to get some splutter at WOT and walk it down from there.

Thanks again!
Enthusiast
2005 Stella 2T
Joined: 14 Jun 2020
Posts: 98
Location: MA
Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:34 am quote
Lynnb wrote:
Scott I tried the 3-4 turns out today and turned inward until the revs raised and had to turn the idle way in or it was just revving too low before I could start turning inward, its going to take me another shot at it because I ended up right where I started.
The idle screw does nothing until the tip touches the throttle slide. Then, it becomes quite sensitive. You should be able to feel the slightly increased resistance when the initial contact is made. Alternatively, if you take the carb cover and air filter off, you can watch and see when the idle screw first starts to make the throttle slide move.

Of course, it could be your mixture screw ended up in the same place because it was properly adjusted all along.
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:03 pm quote
Scott - my suspicion is as Jack's: the flat spot is likely close to 1/3 throttle.
That's the spot the SI hands off between the main and the idle.
You can witness it if you take the air filter off and look down the throat of the carb.
Slowly opening the throttle - and when it hits that spot - you will see some big drops just starting to leave the main jet brass tube that is poking into the carb throat.

Once you get to the MJ you think is pretty close, you can go after that flat spot with idle jets that are richer. My guess is - you are still a little lean on your idle if it is the 1/3 throttle spot.

Sometimes if you get significantly richer on the idle jet - you will find yourself going back to the main and coming down one more notch - but no necessarily.
When you are done double checking your main - if you still have a flat spot at hand off between the two circuits - consider a richer idle.

Oh - and one other thing. If you are only 1 turn out ish on an idle jet - it may idle okay - but I find this is particularly problematic for causing that hand off flat spot. In this case - change to an idle jet that allows 2ish turns or more seems to help.
Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2295

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:28 pm quote
Kowalski wrote:
Lynnb wrote:
Scott I tried the 3-4 turns out today and turned inward until the revs raised and had to turn the idle way in or it was just revving too low before I could start turning inward, its going to take me another shot at it because I ended up right where I started.
The idle screw does nothing until the tip touches the throttle slide. Then, it becomes quite sensitive. You should be able to feel the slightly increased resistance when the initial contact is made. Alternatively, if you take the carb cover and air filter off, you can watch and see when the idle screw first starts to make the throttle slide move.

Of course, it could be your mixture screw ended up in the same place because it was properly adjusted all along.
You are probably quite right with it being adjusted proper all along, it was bench tested but with me putting on the BGM tour box exhaust I figured it would make some sort of effect. I'm more curious than anything , I want to hear and feel this differnce others are witnessing, know your ride kinda thing.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:41 pm quote
Small main jet. If the main jet checks out and ends up back at 109, or not much bigger, I think you should try an even richer atomiser. BE4 is the next choice.
Once the inlet is tuned the set up will be more balanced but for now changing the atomiser should help.
With a BE4 the main jet might be one size smaller still. If you do need this richer atomiser, setting the pilot jet should be easier. And as said, anything that ends up under 2 turns, may be correct at idle but will go flat through progression.
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:13 pm quote
Thank you MJ, or Master Jack.

I did drop in the BE4 and ran an errand, but didn't have time to put in a large main jet to get it to splutter at WOT and work my way down. It was a short errand. Hopefully tomorrow.

I marked the throttle so I could tell what was 0, 1/4, 1/2 and WOT. That'll help with identifying where the hiccup is, if there will be a hiccup....

20200921_131755_resized.jpg
This should help to identify where any roughness is in the throttle...

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2295

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:33 pm quote
Scott good idea marking the throttle , Iíve done this in the past working on a fuel map on my efi bike.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:51 pm quote
Good you had a BE4 handy. It should work better. Once the main jet is re done, the pilot jet will be easier to set.

I mark the throttle with tippex. Easy to get off when you're done.

Need to get the brake lever screw fixed. Left loose like that they damage the casting.
Addicted
'66 Super 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2017
Posts: 736
Location: MN
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:52 am quote
qascooter wrote:
So Kimono - I pulled over and turned on the GPS cause I could feel a fast run coming up. I'm such a sucker for being double-dog dared!
Just saw this, qa.....

R E S P E C T!!!!!!!!

You took the dare and then some. Bet it was a thrill
Addicted
'66 Super 150
Joined: 11 Jul 2017
Posts: 736
Location: MN
Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:37 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Managed to squeeze 72mph out of old yeller (on 8ís) on a slight downhill.

Itís not as hairy as it sounds on 8ís if the suspension and tires are good.
Um, SoCalGuy. Not sure if I respect your 74 on 8ís or just think you are a PSYCHO!!!!!

Clearly my suspension and tires are waaaaay subpar.

But congrats on the sheer madness.....
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:31 am quote
So I had a great Monday and Tuesday playing with jetting.

I upped the main jet to 115 and got the WOT stutter. That was with 120/BE4/

I went down to a 108 MJ because the 105 plug chop was pretty nice, and the 110 plug chop was pretty dark. BUT I'm still having issues with stuttering around 1/4 throttle and various idle jets. A 38-120 is in there currently

So, for fun, I put in a BE5 atomizer, and it felt better down low, but still wasn't getting rid of the 1/4 throttle stutter - better, but not gone. So I put in the BE3 atomizer. Much better at 1/4 throttle again! But not totally gone, so today I'm going to go richer with the idle jet.

When I go on a grocery store run today, I'll try the 45-140, one step richer. The next idle jet I have is a 48-140, which is a few steps richer, so I'm hoping the 45-140 does the trick.

It's totally usable at this stage to just run around with, but I want the down low stutter gone, cause let's face it, that's where you're usually at in traffic. It feels like I'm on the right track. Does anybody have any suggestions?


On another note of interest, Chris came over on Tuesday and brought Rocket, his 1964 Allstate, and we took off the back hub to see what was going on with his non-existent, or I should say, non-consistent brakes. There was a lot of oil in there, so everything got a fairly good cleaning, including the wheel well and the back side of the engine. 1/2" of grime on the swing arm, a blob for the valve cover breather, etc.

It looks like the seal can be replaced from the outside, which is cool, cause that'll be next if it's oily in a short period of time. At least we could see what was happening.

Then we went riding around on Ruby, the P200 and B-62, for another jetting run. Stopped at Los Amigos for a couple burritos, and then a ride to the Cleawox lake, the total summer camp lake, complete with swim platform and canoe rentals.

It was fun to see how 177 pulled against the P200. We switched off bikes back and forth for the whole ride. A great day indeed.

Oh, and while we were picking up burritos, a guy started telling us about riding scooters in Chicago in 1970 for the police! It was his cop bike. No radios, but they would do crowd control, and practice riding skills in some stadium up and down the stairs, and on the ice on the field. They'd ride nose to tail and literally push the crowds back with their scooters. He sheepishly said, "you couldn't get away with that today.". But you should've seen his eyes twinkle while he was telling us the stories.

He also said they had Vespas and Lambrettas. I asked him what he liked. He said the Vespas hands down because they never broke down and the Lammys would break down more than the Vespas. So there you have it!

20200929_104017_resized.jpg
Rocket's hub, a 1964 Allstate, all cleaned up and ready to reinstall brakes, etc.

20200929_125350_resized.jpg
Chris, Ruby, and B-62 at the beach.

20200929_142720_resized.jpg
Chris, Ruby, and B-62 at Cleawox lake.

Ossessionato
1963 VBB2T
Joined: 07 Nov 2012
Posts: 2295

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:15 am quote
Scott I have no suggestions on the carb jetting , itís interesting how the BE5 made the down low better , the 105 certainly would do like the right mj but the down low seems to be an issue , perhaps the overlap?
Love the pics of the bikes.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2602
Location: London UK
Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:03 pm quote
You need to be sure if it's stutter or splutter. When lean it coughs and when rich it coughs different. I suspect with a 109 main the BE4 is correct and a much richer pilot will fill the gap. Something like 48/120.
Nice day at the seaside. Still time for a few more yet this year.
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:55 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
You need to be sure if it's stutter or splutter. When lean it coughs and when rich it coughs different. I suspect with a 109 main the BE4 is correct and a much richer pilot will fill the gap. Something like 48/120.
Nice day at the seaside. Still time for a few more yet this year.
Thanks Jack - Sometimes I feel like I can tell the difference, other times I feel like I can't tell my ass from a hole in the ground.

I'll put in the BE4 and go way rich with the Idle Jet and see how it does.

Thanks again!
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:28 pm quote
Is it the transition point between idle and main or the mainís rich/lean u r trying to nail?
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:06 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Is it the transition point between idle and main or the mainís rich/lean u r trying to nail?
Between idle and main. Jack asked the question a while back about what MJ did it splutter with at WOT, and I didn't write it down, so I essentially started over and worked down to the 109, but cannot get the idle to 1/4 throttle cleaned up.

Then I start doubting my senses and what I know, and see a hole and the ground and think, is that your ass or a hole in the ground. OK, maybe not that bad, but you get my drift. What is lean vs rich, Stutter vs splutter, thirsty vs drowning, etc, etc.

I'm going to go back to the BE4/109 and put in the idle jet 45-140, then the 48-140 and compare the difference. And this is all with an AC 120.

Soon Grasshopper will grasp the pebble...

grasshopper.jpg

Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:36 pm quote
Quote:
Then I start doubting my senses and what I know, and see a hole and the ground and think, is that your ass or a hole in the ground. OK, maybe not that bad, but you get my drift. What is lean vs rich, Stutter vs splutter, thirsty vs drowning, etc, etc.
.
Jetting has two modes:
- I'm a genius!
- I have no idea what I'm doing!
If you aren't experiencing that - you aren't trying.

I like to use a second or third indicator to help find my way.
- At super rich - temp is often stubbornly low - gotta thrash to hit 240.
- At rich - it just wont rev out under load. I loose ~1000 RPM
- While chopping a perfectly good plug in half is a pain in the ass - I've found that once a plug has some color on it - you can make that color change fairly quickly.

For plug color - I will make a 3/4-full throttle run on a slight uphill or somewhere that it has to drag some load - and then pull the plug at the top of the hill - often can see change and hint of where I am. If its charcoal - Im rich...

For what its worth - not a terrible idea to have a 120 or two in your bag of tricks. My guess is - you just keep making idle richer and at some point you'll knock that pesky pause out.
Molto Verboso
79 P200E, 62 Allstate, 2008 Stella
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1989
Location: Florence, OR
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:30 pm quote
Ha! Now you're making me laugh - I'm a genius! Wait - I know NOTHING! Hahaha....

Fantastic info, and you just gave me a great tip - I've got the perfect hill just outside my house that I can go WOT for 30 sec's or so to do a plug chop. Once I ride around for a bit first though.

I could actually do this on my way home from whatever "errand" I conger up that needs to be run. And yes, I think a richer idle jet will help with the 0 to 1/4 throttle issue. I feel pretty happy about this. I'm getting very close. Feeling the needle tilt towards the genius side. heh heh.

But you know what's going to happen after I get it just perfect. The engine will get torn down and I'll end up porting the intake a bit, at least to match it to the carb, new shifting cross, seals, bearings, clutch (22 tooth), crank, etc. Then it'll purr.... When the rains come heavy - January or February. There is still time to snatch the stone out of the carb master's hand...
Ossessionato
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 2036
Location: california
Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:37 pm quote
Quote:
But you know what's going to happen after I get it just perfect. The engine will get torn down and I'll end up porting the intake a bit, at least to match it to the carb, new shifting cross, seals, bearings, clutch (22 tooth), crank, etc. Then it'll purr.... When the rains come heavy - January or February. There is still time to snatch the stone out of the carb master's hand...
hahahahaha!
uh huh.
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